60csx Off Road Navigation Bugs?

[60csxuser]

Hi,

 

I've found some quite disturbing issues when using my 60CSx for real world marine route navigation in our rocky waters. I wonder if some of you have also experienced them, or if I'm possibly making some user errors, so your comments are welcome.

 

1. I've created a new route at home with a number of waypoints (easy enough). The problem is that when I activate the route, the GPS does not point me to the 1st waypoint in the route, but to the second waypoint!

This is extremely odd, none of my previous GPSes have behaved in this manner. It is as if the GPS presupposes that I'm located at the 1st waypoint when I activate the route. This is of course not always the case. Potentially dangerous!

 

2. Creating a closed route (e.g. with the same start and destination waypoint) has its problems. Adding the same waypoint the second time can not be done from the map, only via the waypoint list.

 

3. In addition, when activating this kind of route, it selects the destination waypoint as the next waypoint, and not the start waypoint as it should. The net result is that the route navigation won't start!

Even the workaround solution, i.e. making separate pseudo-start and destination waypoints close to each other, is not always working. The reason being that when activating the route, the GPS seems to select as "next waypoint" the one closest by. And if I happen to be closer to the pseudo-destination waypoint than to the pseudo-start waypoint, the GPS locks to it and thinks I've arrived at the destination

 

4. In some cases, when approaching a route waypoint the GPS automatically zooms out its map for the next route leg. This is not safe at all if navigating a narrow channel. In practice the user has to attend to the GPS to set the right zoom level again, which means slowing down the boat.

 

I'm using the off road guidance method with auto route leg transition. The latest SW version is installed. Comments are welcome. By the way, I've not found any help to these issues in the manual.

Edited July 13, 2006 by 60csxuser

[+ProsperoDK]

4. In some cases, when approaching a route waypoint the GPS automatically zooms out its map for the next route leg. This is not safe at all if navigating a narrow channel. In practice the user has to attend to the GPS to set the right zoom level again, which means slowing down the boat.

I don't know about the other points but this one I think I can help with.

Under [Menu]-[Menu]-Setup-[Enter]-Map-[Enter]-General (the 1. icon), you probably have autozoom on, try turning it off and see if it doesn't stay at the zoom level you set.

 

ProsperoDK/René

[+Red90]

I'm not sure if there is a way to fix 1 to 3. Have you tried playing with the route settings such as the "off road transition"?

 

For #4 from the map screen, press menu, then "Setup map", select the compass rose icon and change "auto zoom" to "off".

[+JFDavis (Orion 6)]

Hi,

 

I've found some quite disturbing issues when using my 60CSx for real world marine route navigation in our rocky waters. I wonder if some of you have also experienced them, or if I'm possibly making some user errors, so your comments are welcome.

 

1. I've created a new route at home with a number of waypoints (easy enough). The problem is that when I activate the route, the GPS does not point me to the 1st waypoint in the route, but to the second waypoint!

This is extremely odd, none of my previous GPSes have behaved in this manner. It is as if the GPS presupposes that I'm located at the 1st waypoint when I activate the route. This is of course not always the case. Potentially dangerous!

 

2. Creating a closed route (e.g. with the same start and destination waypoint) has its problems. Adding the same waypoint the second time can not be done from the map, only via the waypoint list.

 

3. In addition, when activating this kind of route, it selects the destination waypoint as the next waypoint, and not the start waypoint as it should. The net result is that the route navigation won't start!

Even the workaround solution, i.e. making separate pseudo-start and destination waypoints close to each other, is not always working. The reason being that when activating the route, the GPS seems to select as "next waypoint" the one closest by. And if I happen to be closer to the pseudo-destination waypoint than to the pseudo-start waypoint, the GPS locks to it and thinks I've arrived at the destination

 

4. In some cases, when approaching a route waypoint the GPS automatically zooms out its map for the next route leg. This is not safe at all if navigating a narrow channel. In practice the user has to attend to the GPS to set the right zoom level again, which means slowing down the boat.

 

I'm using the off road guidance method with auto route leg transition. The latest SW version is installed. Comments are welcome. By the way, I've not found any help to these issues in the manual.

 

I'm landlocked, but the problem sounds interesting and I think I can simulate.

Let me restate your problems, so I get them set correctly and I'll try.

 

In the first case (1) you have some arbitrary route; essentially a list of waypoints and an associated path. But you are not at the first point or on the path when you start navigating. And the GPSr thinks you are, so naturally you want to go to the second waypoint. And this is dangerous because the route/path from wpt 1 to wpt 2 is the only safe path.

 

In the second situation (2 & 3) you want a loop or circular route and the GPSr doesn't follow the loop, but instead goes directly to the end/closest wpt.

 

I think somebody else addressed the auto zooming.

 

Be back soon.

[GeoidPS]

There is no routing with US Topo

[+thefiveofus]

also, make sure your routing is set to 'off road' (in the system menu, I think under routing, but't can't be sure..but, it's in there... you need to set routing to off road and 'lock on road' on the map setup to off...those are 2 keys to getting proper routing when not driving (I had similar issues while geocaching)..)... this doesn't solve it all, but just wanted to make sure you saw those).. good luck!

[+JFDavis (Orion 6)]

OK, that was interesting.

 

Here is what I did; first I live in a typical middle-class US neighborhood. Nice N-S/E-W streets, a few dead-ends, some loops. I picked 7 intersections in Mapsource and set 7 waypoints (one to seven). I created a new route (Route One) sequentially from one to seven. Loaded to the GPSr via USB. After allowing the GPSr (76CSx) to acquire a fix, I called up Route One and clicked the Navigate buttion. I'm 1000 or so feet (4 blocks) from Point One.

 

Immediately the GPSr went to calculating and then set both the route and the path to Point One from my home. It did not go to Point Two. I got in my car and started driving toward point One . I then tried to confuse the issue by going in the wrong direction. At each intersection I got new directions that would take me back to Point One. At one pont it advised making an immediate U-turn.

 

Three miles from point one I let the GPSr have it's way and I started back toward Point One. Interestingly it had me turn on a residential street instead of a major feeder street at one point-that would have been my choice. I followed the route to point seven without problems.

 

I had also prepared a loop: Route Two. Point One at start and finish. I drove off, some distance away from Point One of Route Two and then selected Route Two and clicked the Navigate button. Calculating and both the route and directions for it's start point were forthcoming. I drove the provided directions to Point One, Route Two, then followed the route without problems.

 

I had the Auto zoom on and that feature is quite annoying--in out, in out. My speed was between stop and 25mph on route. I had about 200 feet of turn warning. Where I simply passed a point it indicated which side the point appeared--that was rather funny as I thought I selected the center of the intersections and one time it pointed at a fire hydrant sitting on the corner. Residential streets here are about four car widths. I had road lock on during route one and off during route two. Where routes overlapped, tracks are nearly coincidental.

 

I am very glad the thing doesn't talk, As I drove in the wrong direction, those corrective directions would rapidly become annoying. I sorry, I don't seem to be able to reproduce either of your problems. In hindsight I wonder if maybe you did all your waypointing and routing in the GPSr???

[+Red90]

I think you need to route off road to simulate the poster's problem. Auto-routing may give different results.

[+Red90]

I just went out and tried myself.

 

1) Yep that is what it does. I guess, you need to do a GOTO to the first waypoint first. Another helpful thing is to use the "Course" pointer and not the "Bearing" pointer. The navigation screen arrow will then try to direct you to the course line between the route points instead of the destination point, which is what I understand you need. When you activate at the start, it will point you to the closest point on that line from your currect location.

 

2) I have no problem creating a closed route in Mapsource. Just use the routing tool and click on the map. It navigated fine on a closed route.

 

3) Again, I can not simulate the problem. I made a clsed route. Went near the first point and started routing. It directed me around the route and back to the start in the correct order.

Edited July 13, 2006 by Red90

[60csxuser]

I'm landlocked, but the problem sounds interesting and I think I can simulate.

Let me restate your problems, so I get them set correctly and I'll try.

 

In the first case (1) you have some arbitrary route; essentially a list of waypoints and an associated path. But you are not at the first point or on the path when you start navigating. And the GPSr thinks you are, so naturally you want to go to the second waypoint. And this is dangerous because the route/path from wpt 1 to wpt 2 is the only safe path.

 

In the second situation (2 & 3) you want a loop or circular route and the GPSr doesn't follow the loop, but instead goes directly to the end/closest wpt.

 

I think somebody else addressed the auto zooming.

 

Be back soon.

 

Your description is correct, matching what I tried to say.

 

Your test is interesting. It seems the unit works correctly in your case ( i.e. guides you first to Point 1). But are you using off-road or follow-the-roads navigation? I use off road mode.

 

Thanks to the poster who verified the same behavior as my unit shows.

Thanks also to those pointing out the autozoom feature. I had missed that one.

[+JFDavis (Orion 6)]

I'm ...

 

Be back soon.

 

Your description is correct, matching what I tried to say.

 

Your test is interesting. It seems the unit works correctly in your case ( i.e. guides you first to Point 1). But are you using off-road or follow-the-roads navigation? I use off road mode.

 

 

Unit is still relatively new to me; point me in the direction to take it 'off-road' and I'll test again. Like I said, this is an interesting 'feature'; I'd like to 'see-it-thru'.

 

UHH, Duh, nevermind, the off-road option is in the path of menus to get it to navigate. Bingo; are you physically closer to point one than point two on your route? Here's why the question. As stated nice square block in my neighborhood. I placed pt 1 sw about four block as the crow flies, pt 2 west a couple blocks, point 3, 4 5 north of 2 two, four and seven blocks, pt 6 east of pt 5. Point 7 is south of pt 6 and also sw of my home starting point (a big rectangle route)--it's also the closest point to my home as that silly crow flies. When I go 'off road', pt 7 is closer than pt 1 and I'm directed to it immediatly.

 

I'll soon be walking the route again and I check in several location to see where I am directed. My gut feeling is that the unit will navigate to the nearest point 'on the route' in the 'off-road' mode.

 

This could be cludgy and ackward; one would need to specifically navigate to point one, then follow the route.

Edited July 13, 2006 by JFDavis (Orion 6)

[+JFDavis (Orion 6)]

I'm beginning to agree with you--very strange behavior. Walking the route didn't prove useful, I'm always too close to the route. Driving was a different story.

 

'On road' navigation from any direction always took me to the start point (wpt 1), but 'off road' navigation is strange. The route is shaped like your leg from the knee down. Wpt 1 is the heel, wpt2 is under the toe, wpt3 above the toe, wpt4 near the ankle front of leg, wpt5 front of the knee, wpt6 back of the knee, wpt7 mid-calf back of leg.

 

Near wpt5 or 6 the GPSr navigates to wpt6 regardless of wpt5 being closer. I had to move away from wpts 2, 3&4 by almost a 1/4 mile, but then it would navigate to the closer point each time.

 

Except for near wpt1, whenever I recalculated the route in the GPSr it would navigate on the second try to wpt 6 then a third recalculate would navigate to wpt7. Only when very near wpt1 would it consistantly navigate to wpt1 regardless of the number of recalculations.

 

I think the 'size' of my route, the proximitaty of the wpts and the short leg lengths contributed to the strange behaviors. I'll be repeating this experiment with a longer/larger route in the next few days.

[60csxuser]

In my case I was definitely closer to point 1 than point 2 when activating the route, and still the unit selected point 2 as the next waypoint.

 

I did make another test where I located myself in the middle of the route and then started navigation. In this case it selected the closest waypoint (number 4 of 7, or something like that) as the next one to go to. This is actually acceptable. BUT in the case that point 1 is the closest one, the unit should definitely select that one as the next waypoint.

[+Red90]

Have you tried the "Course" pointer? I'm quite sure that will do what you are wanting. It navigates by route "leg" not by waypoint, so navigating "to" WP 1 is not possible. It looks for the nearest route "leg". If you look on the map screen, the "eg" being used becomes dotted.

[Moun10Bike]

The first issue (routing to waypoint 2 rather than waypoint 1) is by design and has worked that way in every GPSr I have ever owned. When piloting an aircraft with such a route, the GPS-driven autopilot will vector you in toward the line drawn between waypoint 1 and waypoint 2 to begin and will display your "distance to next" as the distance to that second waypoint. Think of the route not in terms of the waypoints themselves, but as the legs connecting waypoints. The first leg is defined as the line from WP1 to WP2, so the GPS works on getting you to WP2.

 

Issue 3 is also by design. The GPSr tries to get you back onto the route as quickly as possible, which involves routing you to the closest leg.

[60csxuser]

Hi Red9 and Moun10Bike,

 

Regarding my original issue 1:

- I tried switching between Course Pointer and Bearing Pointer, but it made no difference as to which route waypoint the unit selects as next waypoint.

 

- I verified with another Garmin (eTrex) that it indeed does select WP2 as the next waypoint, just as my 60CSx does and Moun10Bike says.

 

BUT I still don't regard that as a logical way of working, at least not for marine navigation. In my world a route is a safe path through rocky waters. And this includes the first route leg. Thus the unit should guide me to WP1 to begin with. At least unless it unambigously can conclude that I've already passed WP1 or a subsequent waypoint.

In my previous units, (Philips AP Mk 5 and Magellan 315) as far as I can remember, the unit guides me towards WP1 in the route (basically by creating a "Leg 0" starting at the present position when the route is activated).

 

I tried a workaround by first activating the route and then making a GoTo to the route WP1. That almost did the trick, but unfortunately the unit in this case when reaching WP1 does not auto-advance to WP2. A manual recalculate is necessary. It would seem logical that in this case the unit would auto-advance when reaching WP1, since it "knows" that the route continues from WP1 (it even shows up on the map display).

 

Regarding my original Issue 3, entering a predefined route which has a common start and end point: I've now made several tries with varying results. It has selected as next waypoint either the closest WP, the destination WP or WP2, but never WP1 as I would like. I don't know if this is affected by turning the unit of and on or if some other magic is involved.

 

The usage for me is in our weekly sail races where I'd like to enter the race course in advance as a route, and then just sail it using the GPS as navigation display but without having to touch the GPS at any waypoint. Again, with my previous GPSes this has worked flawlessly, but on this one I have so far not been able to figure out how to do it. So if you have a solution I'd be happy to hear it, even if it would mean changing to some other GPS brand.

 

So my wishes to Garmin at this point are two:

a ) when approaching a GoTo WP and a route is active starting from that WP, do auto-advance onto the route.

b ) when activating a closed route and the start/end point is the route WP closest to the present position, always assume that the user wants to navigate the whole route.

Edited July 17, 2006 by 60csxuser