Why Turn Off Waas

[+bobkeenan]

I just upgraded from a 2000 old yellow etrex to the legend (the big upgrade to the 60c will be this Christmas ).

 

I noticed that you can select whether you want WAAS on or off. Why would you ever want it off??

[+ejnewman]

Maybe if it affects the battery. Not enough to matter I would think, but maybe a tiny bit.

[+CheshireFrog]

Maybe if it affects the battery. Not enough to matter I would think, but maybe a tiny bit.

 

Yes, you can save *a little* battery power by turning off WAAS. Not enough to make sense doing it, unless you're in an area that currently can't see a WAAS bird.

[+Boardslider]

Also on my Etrex Vista, when WAAS was enabled, two channels of the receiver were reserved for WAAS birds, whether they were seen or not, so effectively it reduces your receiver to 10 channels......

 

This doesn't seem to happen on the 60CSX, which seems to intelligently allocate the channels.....

[+Thrak]

Does it really only use "a little" more battery? I had always heard that it "ate" batteries. I use rechargables so I don't really care - I just would like to know for sure one way or the other regarding actual battery drain due to WAAS.

[+budd-rdc]

Ditto with the rest. Turning off WAAS should be the exception, not the rule.

 

For my Geko 201, WAAS Satellite #47 gets solid bar, while #35 doesn't, so I only "lose" 1 channel when using WAAS. I saw the same behavior with a blue eTrex Legend. Your GPSr is good enough to calculate accurate positions without using all 12 channels, so that shouldn't be the reason why you turn it off.

Edited July 7, 2006 by budd-rdc

[+budd-rdc]

Does it really only use "a little" more battery? I had always heard that it "ate" batteries. I use rechargables so I don't really care - I just would like to know for sure one way or the other regarding actual battery drain due to WAAS.

My suspicion is that this is a perception based on comparing the "Battery Saver Mode" to WAAS mode, at least for Garmins. The same could be said for comparing Battery Saver Mode to non-WAAS "Normal" mode.

 

When I compare between non-WAAS "Normal" mode and WAAS mode, the difference in battery life is not very much.

[+CheshireFrog]

My suspicion is that this is a perception based on comparing the "Battery Saver Mode" to WAAS mode, at least for Garmins. The same could be said for comparing Battery Saver Mode to non-WAAS "Normal" mode.

 

When I compare between non-WAAS "Normal" mode and WAAS mode, the difference in battery life is not very much.

 

Agreed. On Garmins, at least the Etrex series, the battery saver mode MUST be turned of in order to enable WAAS. I think that's where this perception comes from.

 

And I have never noticed a big difference in battery life after shutting it off, in either Garmins or Magellans I have owned.

[explorerboy]

If there are no WAAS satelights or towers in the area, it can also affect accuracy a bit. No kidding!

[GeoBobC]

Don't kid. Use of WAAS can degrade accuracy. The owners manual for the Garmin 60cX reads as follows: "currently, enabling WAAS on your GPSMAP 60cX in regions that are not supported by ground stations may not improve accuracy, even when receiving signals from an SBAS satellite. In fact, it can degrade accuracy to less than that provided by GPS satellites alone.".

[+Renegade Knight]

On my GPS V WAAS slows down the GPS the same way running too many programs on a computer slows down the computer. For some of how I use the GPS that's annoying as heck. It also drains the battery*.

 

On new GPSs the processor is fast enough to where WAAS is a non issue in that regard. Some like Magellan don't save battery power even if you do turn it off. Some like Garmin should save you some battery power but I'm not 100% sure on that.

 

*Edit: On the GPS V I don't use battery saver mode, and WAAS is known to impact battery life though by how much I don't know since my key issue was the increased GPS lag.

Edited July 7, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[NewZealand]

I noticed that you can select whether you want WAAS on or off. Why would you ever want it off??

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airoplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

[+Timpat]

Don't kid. Use of WAAS can degrade accuracy. The owners manual for the Garmin 60cX reads as follows: "currently, enabling WAAS on your GPSMAP 60cX in regions that are not supported by ground stations may not improve accuracy, even when receiving signals from an SBAS satellite. In fact, it can degrade accuracy to less than that provided by GPS satellites alone.".

I agree with this and can add my observations. Garmin doesn't mention the transition phase of the WAAS SVs. I survey using Trimble centimeter and sub-meter receivers and always carry my Map 60C and 60Cx along. I can say that currently with the new WAAS birds in testing mode and having WAAS enabled does in fact degrade your positional accuracy. I base this on comparing my positions against known control points.

 

I have been recommending to friends to leave WAAS disabled until DOD announces they have all their ducks in a row come Fall.

[+PDOP's]

I noticed that you can select whether you want WAAS on or off. Why would you ever want it off??

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

 

Aside from getting WAAS corrections it will (when they all become operational) give you four additional satellites for ranging (position determination) that sit permanently in the southern sky (from North America)

Edited July 7, 2006 by PDOP's

[+Team Cotati]

Maybe if it affects the battery. Not enough to matter I would think, but maybe a tiny bit.

 

Edited July 7, 2006 by Team Cotati

[+Team Cotati]

I just upgraded from a 2000 old yellow etrex to the legend (the big upgrade to the 60c will be this Christmas ).

 

I noticed that you can select whether you want WAAS on or off. Why would you ever want it off??

 

There is no good reason to turn off this accuracy improving feature. Here, check this out from Garmin: http://www.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html This is essentially everything that you need to know regarding WAAS. Happy caching dude!!

[+GPSlug]

I think the battery life issue isn't as big as it used to be. In older receivers, where the WAAS data decoding was done in firmware, the higher data rate and more processor-intensive decoding made a big difference. Now it tends to be done on the tracking chip, where it isn't as much of a problem.

[+Red90]

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airoplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

 

That is correct. It won't do anything in New Zealand...

 

It is quite helpful for Geocaching in North America though.....

[+GPSlug]

Don't kid. Use of WAAS can degrade accuracy. The owners manual for the Garmin 60cX reads as follows: "currently, enabling WAAS on your GPSMAP 60cX in regions that are not supported by ground stations may not improve accuracy, even when receiving signals from an SBAS satellite. In fact, it can degrade accuracy to less than that provided by GPS satellites alone.".

But you are, in fact, in a region well supported by ground stations. That statement would apply, say, to an eastern U.S. user tracking 33 (EGNOS).

 

I agree with this and can add my observations. Garmin doesn't mention the transition phase of the WAAS SVs. I survey using Trimble centimeter and sub-meter receivers and always carry my Map 60C and 60Cx along. I can say that currently with the new WAAS birds in testing mode and having WAAS enabled does in fact degrade your positional accuracy. I base this on comparing my positions against known control points.

 

I have been recommending to friends to leave WAAS disabled until DOD announces they have all their ducks in a row come Fall.

I'm curious, was it an offset position or noisier than stand-alone? And how long were you tracking WAAS?

 

I'd find it hard to believe that the new GEOs are sending corrections* that are any different from the old, fully operational GEOs.

 

Oh, and (nitpick) it'll be the FAA making any duck alignment announcements. The DOD doesn't do WAAS.

 

A couple of other benefits to WAAS that often get overlooked:

1. The errors will be better bounded and better understood, so your GPSr will be able to make a more educated guess about what the EPE should be. Sometimes that's bigger than it thought it was.

2. You may not see much of an accuracy improvement in a quiet ionosphere, but you won't get quite the degradation in an geomagnetic storm as you would without WAAS. We're around the low point in the 11-year solar cycle now, but storms still occur from time to time.

 

*when they are sending them

[NewZealand]

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airoplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

 

That is correct. It won't do anything in New Zealand...

 

It is quite helpful for Geocaching in North America though.....

My nickname doesn't tell you where I am, only where I would like to be.

I don't see why it is helpful for geocaching in the US (where I am

currently).

 

If you are in the woods, it sends corrections to you, which don't help

you in any way, because your position accuracy is degraded by

things WAAS cannot care about.

If you are in the desert under clear sky, accuracy is already below

10 feet, so WAAS again doesn't help you.

 

So WAAS only consumes unnecessary power from your batteries and

doesn't help a ground based person to get a so much better position, which

would make sense to turn it on.

 

WAAS was made only for airplane and sea-navigation, that's also e.g.

the reason why the WAAS satellites are only stationary above the equator, though

theoretically ALL satellites could send a correction signal.

 

For the many land based GPS users it is only a marketing gag, with

no value add - not for offroad routing, and especially not for

street routing.

 

But this cannot be explained to most believers (religion cannot be discussed ),

therefore turn on WAAS and be happy with it.

Edited July 8, 2006 by NewZealand

[+HaLiJuSaPa]

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airoplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

 

That is correct. It won't do anything in New Zealand...

 

It is quite helpful for Geocaching in North America though.....

If you are in the desert under clear sky, accuracy is already below

10 feet, so WAAS again doesn't help you.

 

That's not completely true, without WAAS on, most GPSr manufacturers claim an accuracy of about 30-45 ft. in the best conditions, though I have seen the EPE on my IFinder GO be as little as 19ft without WAAS.

[+Red90]

My nickname doesn't tell you where I am, only where I would like to be.

I don't see why it is helpful for geocaching in the US (where I am

currently)

 

OK, do you Geocache? Your profile shows no finds. In my experience the improved reception helps for various aspects of caching. Please show us your Geocaching handle so that I can believe that you have direct knowledge.

[Jerry Bransford]

Why would you ever want it on?

Do you intend to land an airoplane under foggy conditions?

If not, I don't see any sense to turn it on, because it doesn't buy me anything.

 

That is correct. It won't do anything in New Zealand...

 

It is quite helpful for Geocaching in North America though.....

If you are in the desert under clear sky, accuracy is already below

10 feet, so WAAS again doesn't help you.

I live and go offroading in the Southern California desert and enabling WAAS definitely improves the accuracy down to as much as 8-9'. I've turned WAAS off and on and the accuracy definitely degrades substantially. It's never even close to being below 10' with WAAS off. The desert is all I ever go offroading in and is mainly where I use my GPS. Edited July 8, 2006 by Jerry Bransford

[NewZealand]

I live and go offroading in the Southern California desert and enabling WAAS definitely improves the accuracy down to as much as 8-9'. I've turned WAAS off and on and the accuracy definitely degrades substantially. It's never even close to being below 10' with WAAS off.

From where do you know all that?

From the EPE value calculated by the unit?

Or REALLY by comparing a track on a GOOD map with the track in reality, or even by comparing the position value of the unit at a defined and exactly measured reference position (therefore not at a geocache) ?

[+CheshireFrog]

From where do you know all that?

From the EPE value calculated by the unit?

Or REALLY by comparing a track on a GOOD map with the track in reality, or even by comparing the position value of the unit at a defined and exactly measured reference position (therefore not at a geocache) ?

 

Well, one way is by comparing readings to a benchmark. I've done this and seen an improvement in accuracy and EPE over not using WAAS.

[+fizzymagic]

If you are in the woods, it sends corrections to you, which don't help

you in any way, because your position accuracy is degraded by

things WAAS cannot care about.

Incorrect.

 

If you are in the desert under clear sky, accuracy is already below

10 feet, so WAAS again doesn't help you.

Incorrect.

 

WAAS was made only for airplane and sea-navigation, that's also e.g. the reason why the WAAS satellites are only stationary above the equator, though theoretically ALL satellites could send a correction signal.

Incorrect.

 

But this cannot be explained to most believers (religion cannot be discussed ),therefore turn on WAAS and be happy with it.

In this you appear to be correct; your aversion to WAAS has that religious feel to it. Since it is abundantly clear that you have no idea how it WAAS works, yet still consider yourself some kind of expert, there's not much point in correcting you, is there?

[dave and jaime]

sorta related, where can you find the current operating status of the waas ground reference stations?

[+PDOP's]

sorta related, where can you find the current operating status of the waas ground reference stations?

I don't know of a status page but SatNav News has articles about the new stations (link)

[dave and jaime]

sorta related, where can you find the current operating status of the waas ground reference stations?

I don't know of a status page but SatNav News has articles about the new stations (link)

 

what im looking for is an update on the new station installed in gander, and when waas will be 'acive' within my area.

[cwichura]

Is there a posting somewhere that lists all the WAAS ground station locations?

[+PDOP's]

what im looking for is an update on the new station installed in gander, and when waas will be 'acive' within my area.

Looks like next year as per the SatNav News

This brings the total number of international wide-area reference stations (WRS) to five, including the earlier installations in Canada (Gander and Goose Bay) and in Mexico (Mexico City). The five international WRS sites that were installed in 2005 are planned for integration into the WAAS in the summer of 2007.

[dave and jaime]

what im looking for is an update on the new station installed in gander, and when waas will be 'acive' within my area.

Looks like next year as per the SatNav News

This brings the total number of international wide-area reference stations (WRS) to five, including the earlier installations in Canada (Gander and Goose Bay) and in Mexico (Mexico City). The five international WRS sites that were installed in 2005 are planned for integration into the WAAS in the summer of 2007.

 

is the goose bay station actually installed and tested for operation. my info from a contractor working on the job was the installation was incomplete and as a result the station was inoperable, the job was to be completed this summer. the gander station was installed and then operated for a couple of weeks last fall for commissioning.

[+HumveeDad]

I can't say much about the effect on battery life but I'll tell you this, If I can't find a cache, turning Waas on or off often gives me that extra level of encouragment to keep looking and 99% of the time if I didn't find it with Waas I do without or vice versa...

[+arnoldbikerider]

You just might try testing your own GPS with SA Watch. It's a free program, then you can see for yourself if WAAS is better on or off. http://www.huntting.com/sawatch/ The accuracy listed on your GPS is a calculation done by your manufacturer, and real results may vary. (I'm not associated with SA Watch.)

[+bulletproofcj7]

Hey Jerry, Have I seen you on Jeep Forum?

[JingJangJoe]

In my part of the world, I get to see sats #42 & #50.

 

My experiences with WAAS is that when you do get a lock on these sats, it improves the accuracy by 1 to 2 meters.

 

When moving under tree cover, the reception is intermitent and when you do lose them, the accuracy is actually degraded to worse than using the GPSr without WAAS.

 

I get a more constant accuracy reading when using my GPSr without the WAAS turned on while hiking.

 

If you stay in one place for more than 15 mins, I notice no difference in the EPE with or without the WAAS turned on.

 

Currently, I'm only using it for hiking in forested areas and driving through the city. Would like to try it out at sea and compare the results one of these days........

[+arnoldbikerider]

If you stay in one place for more than 15 mins, I notice no difference in the EPE with or without the WAAS turned on.

 

 

Don't forget that EPE is just that... an ESTIMATE provided by your manufacturer. Don't you think that every manufacturer wants to make their GPS look great? A low EPE is the way, and they can't be wrong since it is only an EXTIMATE.

Give the SA watch program a try, even if just for fun. You will learrn more about your GPS in the process.

[+ajayhawkfan]

What satellite numbers are for the WAAS Sats?

 

When they don't show up is that when you turn WAAS off?

[+jotne]

What satellite numbers are for the WAAS Sats?

 

When they don't show up is that when you turn WAAS off?

 

33 to 51

 

Not necessary (They can be blocked and therfore you will not see it)

But on Garmin it reserve normay one or two slots on the end of the satellite page.

If you have one satellite 33-51 or "_" at the end. Waas is off.

 

Best way to check it, is to look in setup menu.

[+ajayhawkfan]

What satellite numbers are for the WAAS Sats?

 

When they don't show up is that when you turn WAAS off?

 

33 to 51

 

Not necessary (They can be blocked and therfore you will not see it)

But on Garmin it reserve normay one or two slots on the end of the satellite page.

If you have one satellite 33-51 or "_" at the end. Waas is off.

 

Best way to check it, is to look in setup menu.

Thank you for your response. Are you saying satellites 33 through 51 are WAAS? And the "slots" on at the end of the sat page are reserved for WAAS?

 

I know my WAAS is on and I have always had it on. I am leaving for Alaska next week and was wondering what are the sat numbers I should look for. That way if they are not there I could turn WAAS off.

[+jotne]

At the beginning Garmin did reserved two slots for WAAS/Egnos. So when you turned it on, you did loose two satellites position for normal GPS, giving you 10 slots.

Later firmware this has changed, now it may wary beteen one and two slots for WAAS/Egnos.

 

If you are in a place of the would that WAAS in not supported, turn it off.

It works today only in Europe and North America.

I am not sure about the status of the Japanese solution (MSAS)

[+budd-rdc]

At the beginning Garmin did reserved two slots for WAAS/Egnos. So when you turned it on, you did loose two satellites position for normal GPS, giving you 10 slots.

Later firmware this has changed, now it may wary beteen one and two slots for WAAS/Egnos.

 

If you are in a place of the would that WAAS in not supported, turn it off.

It works today only in Europe and North America.

I am not sure about the status of the Japanese solution (MSAS)

During my trip to Japan earlier in the year, my Geko 201 and Lowrance iFinder GO had no problems seeing what Garmin calls Satellite #42. The Garmin "D" and the Lowrance "*" appeared.

 

You'll need to a clear view of the sky to the south, but it's not too low on the horizon as I was able to get intermittent WAAS lock in tree cover.

[Rhialto]

Haven't had time to read it all but this may be interesting for a few of you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WAAS

 

LOT of informations...

[rbrugman]

I was wondering why WAAS sucks in my area (Upper Peninsula of Michigan). If I'm on a really big hill, I can see three WAAS sats, but two of them are not operational yet. I can see 35 at certain times during the day but otherwise it's only 48 and 51. Neither ever get a "D" on my Map 60csx.

[reidster]

Edited July 28, 2006 by reidster

[+fizzymagic]

I know my WAAS is on and I have always had it on. I am leaving for Alaska next week and was wondering what are the sat numbers I should look for. That way if they are not there I could turn WAAS off.

You'll have great WAAS reception in Alaska. Don't turn it off.

[+fizzymagic]

My experiences with WAAS is that when you do get a lock on these sats, it improves the accuracy by 1 to 2 meters.

 

When moving under tree cover, the reception is intermitent and when you do lose them, the accuracy is actually degraded to worse than using the GPSr without WAAS.

So your GPS has a defective WAAS algorithm. That's too bad. I recommend contacting the manufacturer and requesting that it be fixed. Because there is no excuse for the behavior you describe. It certainly isn't the way the WAAS system works.

[+ajayhawkfan]

I know my WAAS is on and I have always had it on. I am leaving for Alaska next week and was wondering what are the sat numbers I should look for. That way if they are not there I could turn WAAS off.

You'll have great WAAS reception in Alaska. Don't turn it off.

Thanks you. I hoped you would respond because after reading your posts I trust you. I'm not wrong am I?

[JingJangJoe]

So your GPS has a defective WAAS algorithm. That's too bad. I recommend contacting the manufacturer and requesting that it be fixed. Because there is no excuse for the behavior you describe. It certainly isn't the way the WAAS system works.

My GPSr is currently using the lastest firmware from Garmin so I don't think that it has a defective algorithm.

 

My experiences suggests that using GPS without WAAS gives more stable and/or accurate readings when locks on WAAS sats are intermitent in my part of the globe.

[AR-15]

I just got this DVD and watched it the other night. One of the first things it said to do was to turn off WAAS, no if's, and's or but's. http://www.nohvcc.org/IMAGES/prgps.asp

 

Comments?

 

AR-15