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All Good Things Must End


Lemon Fresh Dog
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Well, it finally happened. My Coin Cache was raided by a Geo-thief. Not Muggled, the cache is still there, but rather raided by one of our own.

 

Coin Cache Page - personal

 

GC Listing

 

It was a wonderful cache while it lasted! Many, many nice comments and compliments were given for this cache and I would like to thank all of you that had allowed one of your coins to be placed in the cache. I truely beleive that more people saw your coin this way than if you had just let it travel from cache to cache.

 

Do I know who did this? Probably. However, I think it's just best to let it go. They definately know who they are and they will have to live with it. Also, all the coins have a nice scratch on them -- and are activated as a Coin Cache Coin. So they will never be able to log them, sell them, trade them, or otherwise really do much except look at them and realize the error they made.

 

Thanks to all for your support on this cache! I'm going to check to see what remains and take it from there.

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In a strange way -- I'm okay with it.

 

I expected them to be gone at some point. Just becuase.

 

What makes me very, very happy is the number of people that did visit the cache and either made it better or just admired it for what it was.

 

We complain in the forums a lot about missing coins, poor trading, etc. I know it annoys me too. In this case, I want to look at the upside. There was a great deal of happiness around this cache. I do wish it would have lasted one tourist season though.

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That is very very sad LFD. :D

 

It is sad for our local geocaching community, trust is being destroyed and the thief gains nothing, they can only gloat over the theft in private. One thing that might help is marking each geocoin webpage with a clear message indicating that the geocoin has been taken by a geothief and that you do want the stolen coin placed back into play.

 

Every geocacher who takes jeeps or geocoins out of play is stealing from the community generally and they are stealing from the owner of the item specifically, this is everyone's business.

 

You always hear the same stupidity repeated by the same people. One of the stupidest refrains is "everyone plays their own game", in geocaching nothing is farther from the truth than this truly stupid comment. Every geocache is owned by another person as is every TB. Every log you write is allowed to exist by another geocacher. Every time you log a TB or a geocache you are logging someone else's gamepiece, how can you play your own way when this is the case ?

 

The geothieves that steal jeeps and geocoins would like nothing better than to have someone say "mind your own business", another refuge statement for those who are destroying community trust. In one recent incident a geocacher said he didn't want his "good name" destroyed and he recommended others "mind their own business", I am not sure who he is fooling because no one considers his name a "good name" any longer, he is just another geothief who is preying on community trust with his ill disguised theft.

 

sciuchetti recently opened a similar thread in the Northwest Forum.

 

If you see a geocacher who is holding a captive jeep, if you see a geocoin that has been stolen from the owner and placed into a private collection, get indignant, it can only help.

If you are at an event and see a stolen jeep TB being displayed, display your scorn.

Edited by wavector
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If you see a geocacher who is holding a captive jeep, if you see a geocoin that has been stolen from the owner and placed into a private collection, get indignant, it can only help.

If you are at an event and see a stolen jeep TB being displayed, display your scorn.

 

I've tried this route many a time. It falls on deaf ears. The types of individuals that take/keep someone else's TBs or coins don't give a crap. Honestly, they don't. There is a Southeast based cacher who has always had 10-20 jeeps (sometimes more) in his/her possession. This person hoards them and takes them to events and "allows" others to log them, but rarely releases any or if one is released, it is only traded for another jeep. I never understood why this individual was so self centered, but this person clearly is. Pressure from the caching community doesn't seem to help the situation. I can say I will be watching this person's account to see how many of the 2006 jeeps they manage to snag.

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In a strange way -- I'm okay with it.

 

I expected them to be gone at some point. Just becuase.

 

What makes me very, very happy is the number of people that did visit the cache and either made it better or just admired it for what it was.

 

We complain in the forums a lot about missing coins, poor trading, etc. I know it annoys me too. In this case, I want to look at the upside. There was a great deal of happiness around this cache. I do wish it would have lasted one tourist season though.

 

Well LFD, for what it's worth I enjoyed the cache for a couple of reasons. I got a chance to see a lot of cool coins and you put the cache in a park that I really enjoy and I got a chance to spend more time there. Before geocaching I had only been to the camp kitchens in Edworthy Park and had ridden on the pathways once or twice. Caching, and your cache, got me REAL familiar with the cool trails/terrain of the Park.

 

You had some very cool "coverage" on the cache as well. Hopefully, you'll keep the cache there and give it a different purpose.

 

As you know, I too had a coin stolen, a RedHanded! coin, one of yours that I bought. Funny thing, once I activated it and named it 'I was stolen from GCRJ4C - "IYLHYBHA - Panorama Hills"' it was quietly replaced.

 

Based on recent activity/discussions in Calgary I have an idea who did it as well, what a shame.

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I can relate to this. We had a cache in our area that was starting to collect some nice coins. A few weeks back, I had swapped one of my coins for a GeoWoodstock III that was in the cache, then a few days later, another of my coins was brought there by another cacher and another cacher also had some coins in there.

 

Someone took our coins, never logged them out or said they had picked them up and we have never heard of them since. :D

 

I'm just happy I got the GeoWoodstock III out of there before the dirt*** came by. This one has been dropped off in another cache yesterday.

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Pressure from the caching community doesn't seem to help the situation

 

One of the reasons that the pressure isn't effective today is because the geothief can find others who think it is OK to take and keep items they don't own. People do change their outlook when they read these threads, I have seen jeeps released by geocachers who read something here in the forums that changed their minds, it is always worth it to try. If those who took and kept jeeps and geocoins realized that what was at stake was their "good name" in the geocaching community they might stop and reconsider the geothievery. As long as there are those who consider the geothievery as inconsequential the geocoins and jeeps will continue to disappear.

 

If a geocacher shows up at an event with other people's property and that property has been taken out of play and kept from the geocaching community the reaction should be universal scorn, not "keep it". As long as there is one voice saying "keep it" there will be those who continue to deprive the community of the chance to participate as the owner intended. Jeeps and geocoins and travel bugs are all the same, they belong to someone, they have been placed into the trust of the geocaching community.

 

I participated in Lemon Fresh Dog's Coin Cache in a small way and I really respected the fact that LFD was able to go so far in contributing to the geocaching community with this cache. Many individual geocachers were enriched and informed.

 

I have no doubt that there are geocachers who think they actually "own" some of the geocoins they have taken from caches and kept. Self-centered is a good adjective but maybe not strong enough. :D

Maybe when they read the forums and discover they are geothiefs the items they have taken will be placed back into play.

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Yeah this kind of stuff is getting frustrating...

 

Although not a coin, I bought a replica of a white Jeep and put it in a cache with a tag on it. Within a day of placing it there someone made a sock puppet, logged the whiet jeep out of the cache, and took it. It was so obvious, as the sock puppet had no finds, hides, TBs, but somehow knew how to find a cache that had incorrect coordinates and log in and out TB's...they can have the Jeep if it means that much to them.

 

Sorry this happened, I remember reading teh first thread on this cache and thinking it was a cery cool idea.

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Sorry to hear about the loss , we have a @#$$% in our area targeting TB's & coins too. Sometimes it gets very frustrating but as the prior poster said we have to keep on , otherwise they win .

Whenever I put something out I hope for a really long run but am happy with even 2 or 3 trades if it gets over 10 I am really happy. Of the 7 or 8 TB's I have released I believe onlty 1 is still active. Recently I had a Canada coin show back up after being dormant for over a year ...so good things do happen too! If we all stopped then for sure there would be nothing circulating.

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Thanks for the support -- I will definately be rebuilding a like cache (or the same one). My new trick is that I plan to have the coins encased in a plastic block (sort of a flat deal). So at the very least they would be cumbersome to take, own, etc.

 

As it is, all the coins were activated, had a little scratch, and are otherwise useless other than as a private item that can never be shown, shared, traded or sold -- so bwaaa-ha-ha back that the thief.

 

What is odd is that the thief left all the wooden nickels in the cache. AND they left a few of the metal coins! They left:

 

Geobone (should I be offended?)

CAC Token (2 of them, one engraved, one not)

Calgary Regular edition coin

GAS Coin

 

This is pretty suspect actually....it strikes me that they left the coin(s) that they already had in their collection. Which further points to a local.

 

Anyhow .... I had a deer camera at the site and have given them until July 14th before their smiling face is posted to the world -- film at 11.

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LFD, you're taking this very well. I'm glad to hear you had a camera at the ready, but so sad you've had to use it.

We'll send you a Canada's Capital Cachers/Cacheurs de la capitale du Canada Geocoin which was engraved with an incorrect tracking number (you know about those :drama: ) for your new coin collection cache.

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Thanks for the support -- I will definately be rebuilding a like cache (or the same one). My new trick is that I plan to have the coins encased in a plastic block (sort of a flat deal). So at the very least they would be cumbersome to take, own, etc.

 

As it is, all the coins were activated, had a little scratch, and are otherwise useless other than as a private item that can never be shown, shared, traded or sold -- so bwaaa-ha-ha back that the thief.

 

What is odd is that the thief left all the wooden nickels in the cache. AND they left a few of the metal coins! They left:

 

Geobone (should I be offended?)

CAC Token (2 of them, one engraved, one not)

Calgary Regular edition coin

GAS Coin

 

This is pretty suspect actually....it strikes me that they left the coin(s) that they already had in their collection. Which further points to a local.

 

Anyhow .... I had a deer camera at the site and have given them until July 14th before their smiling face is posted to the world -- film at 11.

 

When you are ready to replace the cache. Send me an e-mail and I will contribute some coins to the effort. This really is bad.

 

Some people can be such jerks and bring such negativity to the game.

 

:drama:

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The only thing shocking to me is how long the geocoins lasted in the cache. I have set several of mine lose. One even has my name on it and it is missing. I don't see the purpose in replenishing a cache for people to steal. If you are going to make a cache with geocoins in it, drill a hole in the coins and chain them to the ammo can which is chained to something else. You are only inviting people to steal your coins.

 

Just my personal opinion.

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The only thing shocking to me is how long the geocoins lasted in the cache. I have set several of mine lose. One even has my name on it and it is missing. I don't see the purpose in replenishing a cache for people to steal. If you are going to make a cache with geocoins in it, drill a hole in the coins and chain them to the ammo can which is chained to something else. You are only inviting people to steal your coins.

 

Just my personal opinion.

 

Unfortunately that will only delay the thief until he can get a bolt cutter.

 

Windrose

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One of the reasons that the pressure isn't effective today is because the geothief can find others who think it is OK to take and keep items they don't own.

 

The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

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The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

 

So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him????

 

Windrose

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So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him????

 

Windrose

 

Not at all.

 

When you place a geocache, you have every intention to return to it from time to time to maintain it.

 

You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

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Please, if you care to mention, I would like to know how much $$$ you lost. I hear that people don't like to have my coin copies found in a cache, though I do desire to share an icon with every fellow cacher.

 

This might let people realize why I refuse to let my coins out to be stolen.

 

But then again I seem to be considered as a #*#*#*#* because I issue out copies, and not real coins.

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There are jerks everywhere -- unfortunately our game is not immune. IMO, each cacher needs to come up with whatever plan gives them the most enjoyment -- to balance what they put into the game with the risk of loss of the coins.

 

I continue to place coins in caches, and so far accept that some will be stolen by the idiots amongst us... but it's still not enough reason to stop caching or to stop circulating coins.

 

One guy's opinion only...

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So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him????

 

Windrose

 

Not at all.

 

When you place a geocache, you have every intention to return to it from time to time to maintain it.

 

You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

 

So then --- I release my coins "with every intention of seeing them again". I want to pass them around for a few of my friends to look at and enjoy. Then I want them to be returned to me (by leaving them in a cache that I will visit in the future).

 

Windrose

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The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

 

Uh, no. Not to mention rediculous.

 

 

Not at all.

 

When you place a geocache, you have every intention to return to it from time to time to maintain it.

 

You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

 

And uh, no, and even more rediculous.

 

I bought it, have the receipt for it, and registered it. It's mine. Placing it in circulation for this game in absolutely NO way implies I have given away my rights of ownership. I haven't given anything away.

 

If anything, I have requested the rest of the community to help as best they can to place my coins/TB on a path to complete a goal of my choosing. And that certainly can include leaving it in one place. Moving a coin/TB along may mean a player holds onto it for an extended period to get it to a certain location, but it doesn't change its ownership at all.

 

And please don't use the worn out "possession is 9/10 of the law" expression.

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So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him????

 

The true test of this would be to call your local Police Department and report a stolen Cache. For the sake of discussion, you even know who took it and have proof. I'll give you more ammunition. It was on public property. You had to get permission to place it. Even had to accept financial responsibility for any environmental impact. Will they even investigate, and is there any chance of prosecution. I think not.

 

I'm not suggesting a Cache thief is a good person. But legally I don't think they are a criminal either.

I've not had any caches stolen/muggled yet. If it happens, I will not be happy about it. But I won't expect Law Enforcement to come to the rescue. It's just one of the hazards of our game. And the few bad apples only stand out because most of the community plays the game much nicer than that.

 

And Geocoins placed in the wild probably have exactly the same legal protection as Geocaches. None.

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The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

 

Uh, no. Not to mention rediculous.

 

 

Not at all.

 

When you place a geocache, you have every intention to return to it from time to time to maintain it.

 

You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

 

And uh, no, and even more rediculous.

 

I bought it, have the receipt for it, and registered it. It's mine. Placing it in circulation for this game in absolutely NO way implies I have given away my rights of ownership. I haven't given anything away.

 

If anything, I have requested the rest of the community to help as best they can to place my coins/TB on a path to complete a goal of my choosing. And that certainly can include leaving it in one place. Moving a coin/TB along may mean a player holds onto it for an extended period to get it to a certain location, but it doesn't change its ownership at all.

 

And please don't use the worn out "possession is 9/10 of the law" expression.

 

Yep, I place my travel bugs with the expectation that they are handled in a manner that I set down in the goal and mission. If someone holds my bug for say three months I can send them an email asking them to place the bug in a cache and it won't be considered harrasment. I can delete anyone's log as I see fit and I can ask assitance from fellow cachers to retrieve my bug.

 

Yes of course someone can take my bug and do whatever with it but if that person is abusing the system/bugs/caches they will be banned from this site.

 

So don't really agree that my bug becomes public property once I release it.

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So then --- I release my coins "with every intention of seeing them again". I want to pass them around for a few of my friends to look at and enjoy. Then I want them to be returned to me (by leaving them in a cache that I will visit in the future).

 

Windrose

 

You can come up with whatever rediculous situation you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you abandoned said property. In your mind's eye you may still own the coin, but in the law's eye you don't.

 

You lose.

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The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

 

Uh, no. Not to mention rediculous.

 

How is that rediculous? Explain.

 

By placing an object out in the wild somewhere with no legit intention of retrieving it in a timely manner, claims to ownership are lost.

 

If I am dumb enough to buy a diamond ring and place it in a box in the woods and just walk off, never to return to it again, can I really...with a straight face...claim it's still mine if someone finds it? I think not.

 

 

Not at all.

 

When you place a geocache, you have every intention to return to it from time to time to maintain it.

 

You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

 

And uh, no, and even more rediculous.

 

I bought it, have the receipt for it, and registered it. It's mine. Placing it in circulation for this game in absolutely NO way implies I have given away my rights of ownership. I haven't given anything away.

 

If anything, I have requested the rest of the community to help as best they can to place my coins/TB on a path to complete a goal of my choosing. And that certainly can include leaving it in one place. Moving a coin/TB along may mean a player holds onto it for an extended period to get it to a certain location, but it doesn't change its ownership at all.

 

And please don't use the worn out "possession is 9/10 of the law" expression.

 

Yes, you may have paid for it and registered it, but you left that coin in some remote place with no intention of coming back to get it; no, you just set it out to see it travel. If someone takes it, tough stuff, by abandoning that coin, you ceded any claims to ownership.

 

I won't use the oft-repeated "possession is 9/10 of the law" phrase, but let's try this...cite where the law agrees with you.

Edited by Arthur & Trillian
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You place a geocoin out there with no expressed purpose of retrieving it.

 

In the first example, you still retain ownership because you come back to it. That geocoin is released with no intentions of seeing it again, so in that case, ownership is renounced.

 

I'm sure the law agrees.

 

Traveling geocoins and travel bugs are fairly unique. I can't think of anything else that functions quite the same way they do. I think legally they would fall under the category of a "bailment" in that they are tangible goods left in the care of others (cachers) for mutual benefit. The finders get to find them and get the icon. The owners get to watch their progress and also get the icon. I'm sure that finders who are aware that the geocoin/bug isn't intended to be kept have a legal responsibility not to keep it.

 

I'm also pretty sure that just because you don't expect to see something physically again, you automatically renounce ownership in it. Satellites are routinely launched with the knowledge they won't be seen again but the owners expect they will be able to use them for their intended purpose. With geocoins and travel bugs, the owner does expect to continue to watch their movements.

 

Just because geocoins and travel bugs are too trivial to expect law enforcement involvement doesn't mean that it's either legal or moral to keep them against the owners wishes.

Edited by Vertigoat
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Traveling geocoins and travel bugs are fairly unique. I can't think of anything else that functions quite the same way they do. I think legally they would fall under the category of a "bailment" in that they are tangible goods left in the care of others (cachers) for mutual benefit. The finders get to find them and get the icon. The owners get to watch their progress and also get the icon. I'm sure that finders who are aware that the geocoin/bug isn't intended to be kept have a legal responsibility not to keep it.

 

I'm also pretty sure that just because you don't expect to see something physically again, you automatically renounce ownership in it. Satellites are routinely launched with the knowledge they won't be seen again but the owners expect they will be able to use them for their intended purpose. With geocoins and travel bugs, the owner does expect to continue to watch their movements.

 

Just because geocoins and travel bugs are too trivial to expect law enforcement involvement doesn't mean that it's either legal or moral to keep them against the owners wishes.

 

Perhaps that may be true, but as for me, if it is against the law, then fine. If it isn't, then great.

 

Until someone can produce a law that says it's illegal, I fail to see any problem with it on a legal front. Someone out there left a coin. It sucks, but it may be taken. That's the chance you take when you release a coin.

 

I think people get their panties in a wad over geocoins here a bit too much. For example, if I came across a Moun10bike coin v.1 in a legit manner, I might or might not sell it. It's worth a lot of money, you know, and if I have it, it's mine, no matter what cutesy little things are posted on some website. (For the record, in the Moun10bike case, I am referring to a coin I have purchased, not taken from a cache...I think that is bad form.) Until there is a law abouut this sort of thing, pissing and moaning and flailing your arms about the geocoin market is pointless.

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Until someone can produce a law that says it's illegal, I fail to see any problem with it on a legal front. Someone out there left a coin. It sucks, but it may be taken. That's the chance you take when you release a coin.

 

I think people get their panties in a wad over geocoins here a bit too much. For example, if I came across a Moun10bike coin v.1 in a legit manner, I might or might not sell it. It's worth a lot of money, you know, and if I have it, it's mine, no matter what cutesy little things are posted on some website. (For the record, in the Moun10bike case, I am referring to a coin I have purchased, not taken from a cache...I think that is bad form.) Until there is a law abouut this sort of thing, pissing and moaning and flailing your arms about the geocoin market is pointless.

 

"Theft: a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent"

 

The laws already exist. If you know something belongs to someone else, you're not allowed to take it just because it's on public property and no one's looking. If you see a bicycle parked on a sidewalk, you can't just ride off on it. If you know a geocoin is supposed to stay in circulation, you can't just keep it.

 

Then too there's that pesky "Golden Rule" thing.

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Has there ever been a person that was banned from the sight for failing to return a travel bug? I can give you several names of people who have held on to about ten Jeep travel bugs, have they been banned from gc.com? Nope

 

I never said that not returning a TB would result in getting banned.

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Traveling geocoins and travel bugs are fairly unique. I can't think of anything else that functions quite the same way they do. I think legally they would fall under the category of a "bailment" in that they are tangible goods left in the care of others (cachers) for mutual benefit. The finders get to find them and get the icon. The owners get to watch their progress and also get the icon. I'm sure that finders who are aware that the geocoin/bug isn't intended to be kept have a legal responsibility not to keep it.

 

I'm also pretty sure that just because you don't expect to see something physically again, you automatically renounce ownership in it. Satellites are routinely launched with the knowledge they won't be seen again but the owners expect they will be able to use them for their intended purpose. With geocoins and travel bugs, the owner does expect to continue to watch their movements.

 

Just because geocoins and travel bugs are too trivial to expect law enforcement involvement doesn't mean that it's either legal or moral to keep them against the owners wishes.

 

Perhaps that may be true, but as for me, if it is against the law, then fine. If it isn't, then great.

 

Until someone can produce a law that says it's illegal, I fail to see any problem with it on a legal front. Someone out there left a coin. It sucks, but it may be taken. That's the chance you take when you release a coin.

 

I think people get their panties in a wad over geocoins here a bit too much. For example, if I came across a Moun10bike coin v.1 in a legit manner, I might or might not sell it. It's worth a lot of money, you know, and if I have it, it's mine, no matter what cutesy little things are posted on some website. (For the record, in the Moun10bike case, I am referring to a coin I have purchased, not taken from a cache...I think that is bad form.) Until there is a law abouut this sort of thing, pissing and moaning and flailing your arms about the geocoin market is pointless.

 

Well, in addition to being rude to ScoutingWV you are ignoring the facts of gc.com support. And yes I am fully aware of the realities of releasing a TB or coin, we cast our bread upon the waters.

 

However, while you might advocate people simply take it lying down, I don't and if it takes getting my panties in a wad to educate, correct and yes even chastise, then I guess I have a hobby that'll keep me busy for quite a while.

 

Happy caching. :lol:

Edited by BlueDeuce
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Well, in addition to being rude to ScoutingWV you are ignoring the facts of gc.com support. And yes I am fully aware of the realities of releasing a TB or coin, we cast our bread upon the waters.

 

However, while you might advocate people simply take it lying down, I don't and if it takes getting my panties in a wad to educate, correct and yes even chastise, then I guess I have a hobby that'll keep me busy for quite a while.

 

Happy caching. :lol:

 

Point out where I was "rude"...and what of this "support" you speak of? Does it include people getting all in a tizzy over a token that they cast away for anyone to take and when it eventually is they cry foul?

 

I can't beleive some of you. You stand with all faux outrage over a token that may or may not be sold, taken or whatever when in a legal sense the person who found said token is the owner.

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Yes, you may have paid for it and registered it, but you left that coin in some remote place with no intention of coming back to get it; no, you just set it out to see it travel. If someone takes it, tough stuff, by abandoning that coin, you ceded any claims to ownership.

 

I won't use the oft-repeated "possession is 9/10 of the law" phrase, but let's try this...cite where the law agrees with you.

 

Ahh good - some common ground.

 

However, you are making the assumption that I have "abondoned" my property and I have "no intention" of getting it back. Quite the contrary - I have placed my item in play within a game that has the world as its playing field. The travel goal(s) I set for that item may very well include returning to my possession. Of course that isn't always the case for all TB owners, and it's not that relevant to the point of ownership.

 

In cases where coins have been placed in a cache with the expressed desire to leave them there for others to see, log, and learn about them, that is hardly a form of abandonment.

 

Question: Can you please show me where someone can take something that doesn't belong to them and keep it on a permanent basis - in the same context as the items in this discussion - is in some way legal? Feel free to cite case law - I can look it up if needed. I'd like to learn why have I "ceded any claims to ownership" of something just because I am choosing to use my property in the environment of a global game and I'm playing by the rules when I put it in play?

 

Please understand that I'm not asking (or continuing to post on this topic, for that matter) for the purpose of being a smart-alec. If you can show me I'd seriously like to learn.

 

BTW - My panties aren't actually in a wad about any of this. Everything is quite comfortable. :lol: I'm just hoping to learn something from the discussion.

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Well, in addition to being rude to ScoutingWV you are ignoring the facts of gc.com support. And yes I am fully aware of the realities of releasing a TB or coin, we cast our bread upon the waters.

 

However, while you might advocate people simply take it lying down, I don't and if it takes getting my panties in a wad to educate, correct and yes even chastise, then I guess I have a hobby that'll keep me busy for quite a while.

 

Happy caching. :lol:

 

Point out where I was "rude"...and what of this "support" you speak of? Does it include people getting all in a tizzy over a token that they cast away for anyone to take and when it eventually is they cry foul?

 

I can't beleive some of you. You stand with all faux outrage over a token that may or may not be sold, taken or whatever when in a legal sense the person who found said token is the owner.

 

I have geocoins that I'm sending out to cachers, (yes, to anyone who is interested), that they can log, take it caching and then send it back to me. Postage paid. (I do ask that you take it caching)

 

The Dollar geocoin is one of the best coins I have ever seen, but it won't be available for a few days as it is in transit. The Wales coin is also pretty cool.

 

If you want to log one of my coins send me an email.

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I've been reading this from the top. When I first started geocaching, I read the rules and suggestions that go with the game. My conscience tells me to play by the rules, and most people will play by the rules.

 

We put out geocoins and TBs so that they CAN travel by the rules. That is a fun part of this game. To be able to see these things travel and see where they go.

 

There seems to be some people who prefer to have it their own way and make up their own rules. And on top of that, no matter how we try to explain that if everyone decided all of a sudden that it's OK to hold onto all the TBs or keep every coin they find, they also seem to have all the ready-made answers to everything we may say. They are always right. :lol:

 

There is just no way to make these folks understand anything. They will always come back with an answer to everything.

 

They don't even have to reply to my post, because I already know they feel they have a clear conscience about the way they play the game, right? :P

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"Theft: a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent"

 

How can you steal property that has been abandoned by the original owner?

 

It's not abandoned. It belongs to someone and it's doing what it's meant to do. As a geocacher, if you find a trackable geocoin or travel bug in a cache and you see it has a tracking number, you know to check it's mission. If it says that it's supposed to keep moving, it's an act of theft to keep it, plan and simple. If it's not registered or it says you can keep it, then it's your coin to do with as you wish.

 

This is why people put laminated paper coins in caches.

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The only problem with that sentiment is that once someone releases a geocoin out in the wild, they lose any claim to true ownership. The person who finds it is the new owner.

 

So you're saying that when I leave a geocache in the woods I renounce all claims to it and the first cacher who finds it now owns it and gets to take it with him????

 

Windrose

 

Read the cache page. I pretty clearly stated that the coins were not intended for trade. To this end, like the cache, I intended to "return from time to time to maintain them" -- and, hence not renounce any claim.

 

The law states that leaving any trash in the woods is littering. So I appeal to "geocacher" law. Which states to repect the rights of the cache owner.

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Please, if you care to mention, I would like to know how much $$$ you lost. I hear that people don't like to have my coin copies found in a cache, though I do desire to share an icon with every fellow cacher.

 

This might let people realize why I refuse to let my coins out to be stolen.

 

But then again I seem to be considered as a #*#*#*#* because I issue out copies, and not real coins.

 

I lost about $150 in coins. I think that eBat prices would have had them at about $500 or so. (too bad they're scratched :D )

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"Theft: a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent"

 

How can you steal property that has been abandoned by the original owner?

 

Legality is irrelivant. In fact, it's either a Red-Herring or a shield for poor behaviour.

 

Bottom line: someone took the coins against the wishes of the cache owner (me) as well as against the sprit of the community.

 

If they were of the opinion that there was no moral wrongfulness in their actions, then why not sign the log and/or post to the website -- because they know what they did was "wrong"

 

The legal "defense" is simply a poor justification for us to stop saying coins were "stolen". Fine. They were "taken" by a selfish, pathetic person that has no intention of playing this "game" in a decent manner.

 

Will I take them to "court" -- nope.

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"Theft: a criminal taking of the property or services of another without consent"

 

How can you steal property that has been abandoned by the original owner?

 

Maybe if you bought some coins and then released them you would get it. :D What did you trade for the Jayhawk coin? It says alot about you. :D

Edited by Team 5150
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So then --- I release my coins "with every intention of seeing them again". I want to pass them around for a few of my friends to look at and enjoy. Then I want them to be returned to me (by leaving them in a cache that I will visit in the future).

 

Windrose

 

You can come up with whatever rediculous situation you want, but it doesn't change the fact that you abandoned said property. In your mind's eye you may still own the coin, but in the law's eye you don't.

 

You lose.

 

I've been reading this post for quite awhile and I have to say this is by far the weakest of a number of arguments I've heard so far over legal ownership. I'm not sure why the word abandonment is being used since every coin has a mission statement. By your very argument, the next time you park your car in a public space I have every right to take your "abandoned" property. It was left in a public space so it must be free to whoever wants it, right? Wait, you say, that car is registered in my name. Wait, you say, I paid for that car. Really? I paid for my coins. I registered my coins as my private property. Lending them to friends or putting them in a public space is not giving them away.

I've also seen arguments that caches are "public" space. Again, this is a misconception that a number of people have been happy to use incorrectly. A cache, while placed in a public environment (much like your car on the street) is only available to a very small group of individuals who have all agreed by creating an account on gc to abide by the rules of conduct. Not unlike being given the keys (even though they are not physical keys). This is a private club that is open for new members who are willing to abide by the rules. That fact that there are criminals out there (in every community) does not make their behavior legal or morally right.

It's an interesting stand to take and certainly not the popular one, but it might be just a bit off. I wish I could remember the thread, but a cacher/lawyer already pointed out some excellent points on the legality/ownership issue and even said there is a legal term for what we do with our coins that supports ownership. If any of you remember the term please add it to this thread. I'd like to read it again. :)

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