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Ontario Gps Treasure Hunting


debi13

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in our area there are a lot of Ontario GPS Treasure Hunting caches

most of then are disabled or missing

 

the hides are almost always near a parking area and no thought was put into the cache

 

now I see an article in the Ottawa paper that says they get paid to place these lame hides

 

copied this from an article about geocaching by Alex Hebert a reporter for the Ottawa Sun

 

 

Geocaching has grown to the point that it's used to boost tourism. In 2002, the Canadian Ecology Centre in Mattawa founded a GPS treasure hunting website to bring more awareness to Northern Ontario's tourism industry.

 

Geocaches were planted containing information about the area's heritage and ecology. Now, almost five years later, Ontario GPS Treasure Hunting (www.geocachingontario.com) is bigger than ever, with active caches all over Eastern and Northern Ontario. And these ones even offer real treasures.

 

"You get the codeword from the cache, enter it in the website and get a chance to win prizes," said Bill Steer, a geocache educator and product developer working out of the Canadian Ecology Centre. "In 2004 and 2005 more than $40,000 worth of prizes were given out."

 

And local businesses are "caching" in. Some of the caches hidden by Ontario GPS Treasure Hunting can be sponsored by businesses for $100 a year, which covers maintenance costs.

 

"It's easy for me to justify that $100," said Chris Hinsperger, who owns Bonnecherre Caves in Eganville. He says having a cache located on his business property gives him increased exposure.

 

To date, there are over 300 geocaches in the area which are part of this initiative, 17 of which are sponsored.

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I have found several of these and like all caches the odd one was a little lame but most were good. The prizes are real, I have one friend who won a canoe, another a oil painting. Up our way ( Northern Ontario ) we are glad to have these hides.

 

Murfster

Edited by murfster
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I don't mind the sponsership, or the locations of the caches that I have hunted. My only problem is that the containers are all the same, hidden in the same way and it appears the hide is not thought through very well. I appreceate the history lessons that are almost always in the cache. If you take the time to read them you almost always learn something new about the area. but I know everytime I go out to find one of their caches what the container will be and how it will be hidden, I would like some variety in their hides as I am seriously considering putting them on my ignore list.

 

bwmick

Edited by bwmick
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I am also ignoring these caches. I found a few of them early this spring - every hide was the same, the contents of the container were the same, and they hadn't even bothered to sharpen the pencil included to sign the logbook.

 

And, the contents were minimal, a carabiner and a couple of whistles. Gee, I've just found my third of these caches, what should I take this time? Another carabiner? One kind soul went around all the ones in the Limerick Forest and stocked them with swag, but should the caching community be expected to stock caches that the Forest has paid $250 to have placed? (Yes, thats $250 per cache, the price quoted at the meeting I attended where the OGTH people were the keynote speakers).

 

The hiding places were pretty lame - never on an interesting trail, or at a nice picnic spot - just tied onto a tree in the middle of the brush about 30 feet from a road. These are so easy to find it is ridiculous! And what is the incentive to 'Stay'. If it was a nice picnic area or historic site sure, I'll stay for a while, but I'm not to keen to hang out in the brush being bitten by bugs.

 

To my mind the organisers have completely missed the point of geocaching, there's no challenge at all to finding these, no ingenuity in the hides, the containers or the theme of the caches.

 

Also, the description on Groundspeak is always the same too, there's no information to give you a reason why you might want to visit the cache site. I don't want to have to read the story on the sheet in the cache when I'm being eaten alive by bugs - I'd like to see the info on the cache description so I can decide beforehand if I want to pay a visit.

 

I feel the sponsers of these caches are NOT getting their money's worth. It would be so easy for them to set up their own caches and make them much more interesting than they already are.

 

In a word these are BORING. McCaches. A predictable formula that wears thin very quickly.

Edited by airedales
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but should the caching community be expected to stock caches that the Forest has paid $250 to have placed? (Yes, thats $250 per cache, the price quoted at the meeting I attended where the OGTH people were the keynote speakers).

 

That would look like these violate geocaching.com's guidelines about commercial caches in a very big way.

 

Here's the guideline:

 

"Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted."

 

Well, if the sponsors aren't doing this then certainly OGTH is. So, yes I do have a problem with the sponsorship issue since opening up this loophole would mean we all should start charging for placing caches. The sport then becomes a commmercial activity not a sport. That makes placing caches for money not a good idea.

 

If Cache-tech is reading this thread maybe they could take a look at this.

 

JDandDD

Edited by JDandDD
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Yeah, I've found a few of these caches now. In each case I would've put the container somewhere else a bit more interesting. But I can say this about a lot of caches I find lately.

 

Kudos to making money from caching I say! I wish I had bought Garmin stock when I bought my first GPS receiver as I would've quadrupled my money in five years.

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Yeah, I've found a few of these caches now. In each case I would've put the container somewhere else a bit more interesting. But I can say this about a lot of caches I find lately.

 

Kudos to making money from caching I say!

 

Except that it is against the rules! If they can charge for placing, then what stops people from charging us to place them. Then the game is done!

 

JD

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Yeah, I've found a few of these caches now. In each case I would've put the container somewhere else a bit more interesting. But I can say this about a lot of caches I find lately.

 

Kudos to making money from caching I say!

 

Except that it is against the rules! If they can charge for placing, then what stops people from charging us to place them. Then the game is done!

 

JD

 

Are they listed on gc.com? Or is it an entirely seperate listing site. I was under the impression it was a seperate listing site, in which case gc.com rules don't apply.

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I've found a few of them. some of them were in pretty lame spots, but i found a few that were in nice historic places and a few that were by beaches along a lake. one of them I can even seadoo to.

 

overall, i think they could have hidden them better. and mabe at least tried to camo them a bit. Almost everytime i found one of them, i almost got muggles.

 

and the one that I can seadoo too, is visible from the lake, and is in a very busy area, i'm sure its just a matter or time till its gone

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Copied this from http://www.northcfdc.ca/geocaching.htm

 

 

Background- the Eastern Ontario Development Fund Regional Initiative

 

The Renfrew County CFDC has identified "geocaching" (GPS treasure hunting) as a pilot, economic development project for Eastern Ontario. For this proposal it will be identified as Eastern Ontario Geocaching (EOG). It is a four-season, tourism product that brings together the "knowledge-based" economy/technology and tourism/retail sectors. EOG through Geocachingontario.com, has the potential to become a new and significant tourism product. The pilot for eastern Ontario is a development and marketing project with a number of identified deliverables. In the first phase, including this proposal, the development portion will be highlighted.

 

Its overall objective is to move the product towards self-sustainability. It will complement tourism activities (suppliers/organizations) contained within eastern Ontario. EOG will complement the successful project sponsored by FedNor called Northern Ontario GPS Treasure Hunting. In 2004 the Canadian Ecology Centre, which amongst its other activities has developed a certification program for GPS use, launched, with support from FedNor, a geocaching base Northern Ontario tourism promotion called “The Northern Ontario GPS Treasure Hunt”.

 

The objective of the program was to attract tourists to the north with a wide network of caches in place at historical/cultural sites, places of interest, scenic locations and commercial establishments. These caches were then noted on a website www.geocachingontario.com. In subsequent phases caches will be sold through EOG as represented by the current development model of geocachingontario.com .

 

 

the last paragraph about selling caches seems to me to be against the geocaching guidelines

 

whats next

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The next step, you ask ? As a local geocacher, I was asked by the local tourist board if I would place and maintain caches 'for them'; whereupon, they would then solicit financial sponsorship!

 

I politely refused and pointed out what I believed to be the inconsistency with geocaching.com commercialism guidelines.

 

I personally object to their 'marketing' of our sport. I chose to 'ignore' their caches, or any cache that doesn't entice me to go out and discover something new, with an interesting write-up on GC.com, rather than merely offering me a 'chance to win something'. I can do that at Rama, or elsewhere if I chose.

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Copied from Debi13's most recent post, which was a quote taken from Northumberland Geocaching

 

The objective of the program was to attract tourists to the north with a wide network of caches in place at historical/cultural sites, places of interest, scenic locations and commercial establishments. These caches were then noted on a website www.geocachingontario.com. In subsequent phases caches will be sold through EOG as represented by the current development model of geocachingontario.com

 

Nothing in there violates Groundspeak's "Terms Of Use" because they say that the 'Geocaches' are to be listed on their Geocaching Ontario site which operates indepedently to Groundspeak's Geocaching.com site.

 

BUT.....

 

If this same group was to then turn around and list the same Geocaches here on the Groundspeak Geocaching Listing Service, then they would be in violation of the "Terms Of Use".

 

The challenge is, it is next to impossible for the Groundspeak Volunteer Reviewers to be able to identify these Geocaches as commercial. Most of the listings they have don't suggest this aspect. Giving away prizes really isn't commercial, as many people do this (myself included) for their own personal caches.

 

Yes, it is against the Groundspeak "Terms Of Use" to submit caches that solicit. But proving it is another issue all together.

 

So far, it seems that they have found a way around the loophole. Yes, they promote tourism in the North. Yes, they are on the edge of violating the guidelines in my opinion.

 

They have many caches that are commercial that are not listed on Geocaching.com, because they cannot do that. They have some that designed to provide an opportunity for exploration without any commerical interest, and those are listed here. There are probably some that are in the "grey area" too.

 

I know exactly what you are saying, and I agree with you. But unless you go to a cache listed on Geocaching.com and find content that solicits, either online or in the container, you cannot say it is violating the "Terms Of Use" even if you know in your heart that it is.

 

The thing that I find surprising in this whole thing is that not only do people think that putting a stop to the Geocaching Account that is placing these caches would do anything (as they would just open another account.. they are free) but that people also think that the Reviewers aren't keeping a close eye on these people to make sure they don't cross the line. In the long run, our Reviewers in Canada would be held accountable.

 

But by all means, take your concerns to your local Reviewer. They might not be fully aware of what a local might know. Have your facts in order, all the details ready, and present your case.

 

Bullfrog Eh-Team has the right idea.... if you feel the cache is being used to solicit, then don't visit it. If these caches fail to attract tourism, then the project will cease in time.

 

I cache for fun... not prizes or to visit sponsors. My reward is the experience, which is represented by a :laughing:

 

:) The Blue Quasar

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.... If this same group was to then turn around and list the same Geocaches here on the Groundspeak Geocaching Listing Service, then they would be in violation of the "Terms Of Use".

 

.... Yes, it is against the Groundspeak "Terms Of Use" to submit caches that solicit. But proving it is another issue all together.

 

..... So far, it seems that they have found a way around the loophole. Yes, they promote tourism in the North. Yes, they are on the edge of violating the guidelines in my opinion.

 

..... They have many caches that are commercial that are not listed on Geocaching.com, because they cannot do that.

 

..... But unless you go to a cache listed on Geocaching.com and find content that solicits, either online or in the container, you cannot say it is violating the "Terms Of Use" even if you know in your heart that it is.

 

..... I cache for fun... not prizes or to visit sponsors.

 

It started as NOGPSTH, and has expanded to EOGPSTH. It may not have reached the 'Golden Triangle' yet; but the ontariogeocaching web site suggests an intention to spread further in Ontario.

 

Their caches ARE listed on OUR Geocaching.com (check out GCT9H7, GCT9HD, GCT9HE, or GCVIC0). They contain NO indication of what to expect at the cache site, as prescribed for GC.com cache reporting. Instead, the cache SOLICITS the GC.COM reader to switch over to ontariogeocaching.com, for any cache information; and where one co-incidentally reads "businesses sponsor these caches" (I've been told by business associates the fee to sponsor is about $250 per year).

 

Yes, they are apparently careful to comply with OUR 'Terms of Use' while in a GC.com presence - But, they distinctly SOLICIT Geocaching.com patrons into THEIR Commercially oriented and sponsored site. Surely that action in itself circumvents OUR geocaching.com "Terms of Use" ?

 

Geocachers are pretty straight-up in their evaluation of geocaches. The logs associated with a cache usually portray the quality of the hunt, the hide, and the cache. I always check the logs, before electing to participate, and like the Blue Quasar "... I cache for fun... not prizes or to visit sponsors".

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I have previously pointed out to a Canadian reviewer that these caches appear to be commercial in numerous respects. In particular the fact that the CEC charge local tourist authorities a fee to set the caches and to list them and get funded by some federal government grant so to do - then they make use of the free services of Groundspeak (they are not even premium members) to promote their caches (which, I happen to agree with previous posters, are generally crappy). Clearly Groundspeak has not felt that they are sufficiently commerical to "pull the plug" and that is their prerogative I suppose.

 

For a bit of background info here is a transcript of an article from the Bancroft Times dated March 10, 2006 - page 24 (it is their copyright but I believe that this constitues "fair use" as it is being used in discussion about the topic being reported on) about this. Note the reference to FedNor government funding which appears to be part of this project: FedNor Invests in Canadian Ecology Centre

 

Geochaching (sic) newest sport in area "

 

By Sheryl Loucks - Editor

 

A new sport has been official (sic) launched in North Hastings: treasure hunting.

 

A crew of volunteers went out two weeks ago and started the process of hiding caches in the woods and at local attractions. Hunters can not expect to find gold but they can have fun while looking for a cache. A traditional cache is a tupperware type container with a log book in it to record the adventure to get to the cache, a proze for the finder to take, and each cache will have a cultural heritage story in it.

 

The big find though is a code word that can be entered online at www.geocachingontario.com for a chance to win cash and prizes.

 

Laura Kielpinski from the Canadian Ecology centre explained what geocaching is all about at a public meeting. She says her centre is a privately owned outdoor education centre that got interested in geocaching and is now working with the province of Ontario to set up programs across Ontario.

 

How it works is that people go online for maps of where caches are hid, they are given latitude and longitude coordinates of the precise spot where a cache is hanging from a tree, or tucked into a corner at a business or hiding at a scenic spot. The hunters need to use GPS units to track down the cache. Kielpinski says this might involve driving to a tourist destination in your car or perhaps hiking a trail.

 

Ontario is behind this because thousands of people are using it a a new way to experience tourism. Kielpinski's company is cashing in on (sic) by offering to buy caches that the company is repsonsible for providing, and then the business is registered on the website as a geocaching site.

 

Locally, Community Futures Development Corporation has signed on to the program and used volunteers like Abe Drennan to place 10 caches in the community. Bob Cloes, CFDC manager, says the money to purchase the caches came from FedNor government funding.

 

There are already caches in the Haliburton Highlands too. Drennan says it was fun to get outside and they found some beautiful spots to hide the caches.

 

Kielpinski says they monitor the spots to ensure animals haven't snatched the caches and that they are kept filled.

 

Kielpinski says communities can also choose to create "virtual caches" where hunters go to tourist sites, with instructions from the website that directs (sic) them to look for a third word on a sign, and they use that clue to lead them to the next clue that ends in a prize or a codeword they can enter online to win a prize. Chris FitzSimon's (sic) from CFDC says buying caches is a great way to get your business on the radar of another group of tourists.

 

I have also been informed the following by someone who went to one of the public information meetings:

 

"We...attended an info meeting put on in Bancroft by Ontario GPS treasure hunting www.geocachingontario.com As you probably know they offer the "bonus" of a code in their caches which allow you to enter a draw for fabulous prizes. But to have one of their caches in your area you have to pay them $250.00 per plastic container housing a log book, historical info sheet and 3 trinkets (along with the $250.00 you supply them with the historical information, hide the cache yourself and maintain it yourself.) Bancroft, (Commuity Futures I think it is,) has invested in 10 caches from geocachingontario. I asked where all the money goes and found out that geocahcingontario is not a charitable organization but rather a business. Lucrative at $250.00 per tupperware ....... per year by the way.... and the prizes are all donated by businesses who receive a cache in lieu of paying the $250.00."

 

Draw your own conclusions - I know that I will only bother to try one of these caches if I happen to be passing (as I was in Bancroft the other day) - they are mostly pretty boring. I also found that in order to qualify for some of their "fabulous prizes" you have to provide all kinds of personal information which I found excessive and obtrusive and so I declined to participate in that aspect.

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I have been watching these caches closely and have found several myself, at least if you don't find it you are 99% sure its gone :laughing: . The CEC is non-profit and are using the caches to promote tourism, I have discussed the commercial apects with the CEC and other geocachers that have attended their meetings as well as Groundspeak. While I am not to keen on the contest side of things, caching myself for fun and not for prizes, I do not enter the contests. You can be sure that I am trying to ensure these are within the listing guidelines of this site with all of the information that I have available and with direct questions to the CEC with these concerns before any of the new caches were published as well as a number of emails and discussions concerning the first series of caches placed by the CEC. If you have any further information, don't hesitate to forward it to me through email. Since I have published 99.9% of these caches, I have to answer for them if there is a problem. I do think these are very much in the grey area, the cache descriptions are not the greatest, but you have all of the information needed to find the cache on geocaching.com and the caches are not even listed on geocachingontario.com anymore, they all link back to the geocaching.com listing. You also do not have to participate in the contest or sponsors to find the caches and the sponsors are not mentioned on geocaching.com. I am also reading all of the information in the links provided in this topic.

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My biggest issue with these caches is the sheer number of them. And in my area they are usually almost beside an existing one. If the point of geocaching is simply to boost your find count, I suppose that is a goal, but in my opinion a geocache should take you to a nice place, either scenery, some sort of unusual hide or history, something like that. I have been looking to place a cache in our area, but haven't found a spot like this that didn't already have a cache in it, and then EOG puts a second one right beside it.

 

I have never done an EOG cache, and so far I have no plans to do one.

 

BTW, I have done 6 of Debbi13's caches and they are very well done. She did two of my favourites, 'She bangs !!!' and 'Rack'em up'.

 

Willowbrookfarm

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I have found all 17 of the caches that appeared this spring up the east side of Lake Simcoe. It is untrue that most of them are crappy hides. Some of them are crappy hides. Some of them are okay. And several are very good, and in interesting places. On average, the percentage of good hides out of the 17 is probably higher than the percentage of good hides for all caches in Ontario.

 

They are also not all hidden the same way, but most of them are (a container bungee corded to a tree). Several of the hides are different and slightly more challenging.

 

As for inferior cache contents, well, golly gee. How many caches have great contents? I know I set out three of my caches with really good contents (like brand new juggling ball sets, etc.) and early finders commented on that. But within a few months they looked like 90% of all the other caches out there. Good thing I'm not going out for prizes! (Although finding the occassional cool thing in a cache is a treat.)

 

In summary, most of these hides are worthwhile and just as good if not better than a lot of other caches out there. The only two I really didn't like were GCV48P and GCV496. The former was behind a row of businesses and the latter was one of the caches where the neighbours might call the police on you.

 

I took the series as a challenge and made a day of it, trying to find them all in one day. (Skipping off work, for my birthday, in fact.) I ended up in lots of interesting places, exactly as I would expect from a day of geocaching. At no time did I feel taken advantage of by some commercial enterprise and in fact there was no solicitation in the caches that I can recall.

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I know who they are. And I have already been approached, although a long time ago, to place some for them.

 

All I was saying is that the listings on here haven't violated the terms of use, but charging people to place caches as a tourism generating idea is fine if it is done away from Groundspeak.

 

But that is the problem, isn't it? They also list regular caches here and that makes it hard to see which is what.

 

I know that Cache-Tech is on top of it... but part of me wishes that this group didn't blur the line so much.

 

If they want to place caches to promote tourism, then they should do it privately.

 

But it is hard to say that, when I have caches that bring people to locations, and there is probably a benefit to some aspect of the local area, although not my intention.

 

I have no problem with what they are doing, but I wish they didn't use Groundspeak's Geocaching Listing Service in any form... because you can be sure that they do use the logs and finds to show that their idea works, even if the data is skewed because the finders don't care about the tourism or are locals. If someone is a tourist up there, likely they are because they wanted to go up norht in the first place. The Geocaches are just a bonus.

 

I found four Virtual caches around Walt Disney World... but I didn't go there for that reason. Who would?

 

When I go up north, it is not for Geocaching... but to enjoy that environment. Sure I would do some caches, but it isn't my motivation... I'd rather canoe, or read... basically vacation. I can Geocache anywhere.

 

:P The Blue Quasar

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Agree with BQ. The thing that really gets me is the "double dipping" (or even "triple dipping") they seem to be doing. They are using a Federal Government grant (and you know who provides the money in the first place for that) plus charging the local tourist bodies $250 per year per cache plus making free use of Groundspeak's listing service to promote it. If gc.com is willing to let them do so that's entirely up to them - they obviously are OK with what is going on. But with all that "dipping" happening I really wonder who is the ultimate beneficiary. The folks that run the CEC don't do so out of the kindness of their hearts. The generally sub-standard cache placement (and I agree with danoshimano that some, just one that I have found so far, are decent) is just adding insult to injury.

 

BTW - if you are wondering about the type of cache placement being talked about - here is a picture:

 

655c9b70-fbe7-44c0-8a13-f9c7d4835df1.jpg

 

Just read the logs for this cache EOGSL005 - Town of Pefferlaw and you will see I am not the only person to think this way.

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what is also very annoying about the cache hides is that the ones that get muggled stay that way

there are several nearby that have been muggled since the beginning of April

 

some the coords are off and they never get updated

 

looks like "take the money and run"

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danoshimano posted:

"On average, the percentage of good hides out of the 17 is probably higher than the percentage of good hides for all caches in Ontario."

 

I would not call a container bungeed in clear view of all and sundry to be a good hide. I've never seen other caches hidden so badly. Caches are supposed to be HIDDEN, not visible!

 

"As for inferior cache contents, well, golly gee. How many caches have great contents? "

 

I think there are several points to make here - if you go into an area that has four of these caches and plan to do all of them in one session would you be happy to find EXACTLY the same contents in each? Three items? A lot of cachers who find these caches report "took nothing but left.....". In other words, even though $250 is paid for these caches to be placed, there certainly isn't even $2 of contents. The cachers themselves are providing the startup swag.

 

Heck, we aren't caching for the swag, but the fun of the search and then we get some enjoyment at looking at all the objects inside - sometimes we find something useful (I'm wearing a lanyard I found in Old Fart #1) but generally its just fun to see what's inside.

 

I don't think I'd mind these caches if I thought the sponsers were getting value for their money. If they were great caches that people sought out because of the challenge in finding the container and the fun of looking at the contents then the sponsers would get more visitors and would perhaps see some of the 'payoff' that they are seeking. But as it is most of us are ignoring the caches so the only beneficiary is the group that gets the $250!

 

One cacher took her kids out to find a bunch of them and the kids started saying 'not another one of THOSE caches' after several repetitive finds - she concluded that it wasn't worth the gas to go looking for them.

 

And they could at least sharpen the pencils before placing the cache! I had to sharpen my first EOG pencil standing up to my ankles in slush!

 

Hopefully the sponsers are following up by reading the cache logs, and maybe even reading some of the caching forums where people are having these discussions.

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The money aspect is what I don't like. What stops anyone though from charging people money to place a cache by a store, when you tell them it will draw people in? Anyone could take their idea and run with it anywhere in the world. Then what is the next step after that, GC asking for a cut and a new tourist cache icon? I just worry that if people are charging someone to place a cache for them that it is a matter of time before the we are charged to find it. I have yet to find one of these caches, but is sad to read, hear that they are not maintained or stock with low trades when you hear what they charge. Where is the money going they are making? into prizes?

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I first found these caches 2 seasons ago while I was visiting near North Bay and I like these caches very much. I seek and find them like all other caches set on my traveling roads. I enjoy the history lesson in each cache (I do read them all) and they are a nice break from all the micros and nanos we have here in Montréal. As for the swags, hey! they are not any worst than any other generic cache. I have never found any hint to any sponsorship in any cache I have found until now. This organisation has developped a second way to geocache: everybody is free to participate or not. I choose to participate.

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Well we certainly "cashed in" with this intiative from the CEC. We won a $3000 kevlar canoe, books, a diamond ring, and lots of one night stays at hotels, inns, bed and breakfasts etc. in the first year. I travelled for work a great deal that year and was lucky enough to find lots of them to enter the contest and increase my chances for the year end draw.

 

We have seen this project improve by leaps and bounds from the original big white buckets, to more discreet/traditional containers. The CEC is OPEN to feedback and suggestions to improve this hobby/game/tourism project, what ever you/they choose to call it.

 

I hope rather then complain, geocachers who are unhappy with this project will let the right people know so they can continue to improve and make changes to make the geocaching community happy. They have a tough job to satisfy each cacher's needs for challenges, or ease of finds depending on mobility/ability, time, money, ethics, etc. If rules are being broken, I trust the reviewers will address them accordingly.

 

Living in an area with very few cachers and caches, it was nice to see the availability of caches increase. Sure they are easy to spot, and quite predictable, but I believe they want consistency for audience they are trying to draw, but I could be wrong. Again providing the feedback directly to the CEC would be a good step to making improvements.

 

That is my 2 cents.

C&K

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danoshimano posted:

"On average, the percentage of good hides out of the 17 is probably higher than the percentage of good hides for all caches in Ontario."

 

I would not call a container bungeed in clear view of all and sundry to be a good hide.

 

Neither would I. And I didn't.

 

I've included my original sentence again so you can re-read it.

Edited by danoshimano
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danoshimano posted:

"On average, the percentage of good hides out of the 17 is probably higher than the percentage of good hides for all caches in Ontario."

 

I would not call a container bungeed in clear view of all and sundry to be a good hide.

 

Neither would I. And I didn't.

 

I've included my original sentence again so you can re-read it.

 

Let me make my point a little clearer then - I have never found any cache out in the open except those from the Ontario GPS Treasure Hunting organisation. All non OGTH caches have been hidden - not in plain view. All OGTH caches are in plain view, they make no attempt to hide their caches at all.

 

Therefore, these are NOT 'good hides' by the OGTH organisation. They are NOT hidden.

 

Having read some other posts from those who like these caches, I've noticed that they are people who live in the areas the caches are hidden. Since I thought the point of the OGTH caches was to attract tourists, they seem to have missed their mark there as well. When I attended the meeting where the OGTH guy was giving his talk on their 'wonderful' program, he stressed that a one day free stay won by a tourist would result in them staying for more than that one day and they'd spend money during their time in the area. But if that one day stay is won by a local, then where's the benefit to the local tourism industry?

 

I appreciate the fact that in area where there are few caches these caches would be liked by the local geocaching population. But since the point of this program is to promote tourism, and the caches are so poorly done, they don't really attract many tourists, do they? I've checked logs for many of these caches in areas where I might actually visit and I find the caches have been visited by only one or two people all this season. And ones with more visitors usually end in a report that they've been muggled and only a bungee cord remains. But the cache will not be disabled, so you'd better read those logs to make sure the cache is still there!

 

My main complaint about these caches is that the groups who sponser them are getting such very poor value for their money. I hope they are reading the cache logs and evaluating on the return they are getting for their investment.

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.... in my area they are usually almost beside an existing one.

 

Willowbrookfarm

 

I was thinking about this and in the case of the cache that I stumbled upon it was less than 20 metres from a very well hidden cache. If I wasn't familiar with the series I might have assumed that it was the cache I was looking for. In this instance it was not loggable on CG.com, IMO it was piggybacked onto an existing cache at a spot that was easy to get to so that people could spontaniously find it. Again it was bungied to a tree for all and sundry to see, and because of it's proximity to a registered cache caused some confusion (see logs towards middle) GCGP5W.

 

I don't think they had a bad idea I do think that their execution was weak.

 

they do have an understanding of how the rules at Groundspeak work though. they have listed this years crop of caches at CG.com but their "community Caches" are only on their site. (http://www.geocachingontario.com/live_caches/Comm_caches_index.htm) makes for interesting reading, especially the mention of sponsered caches hidden in the wild.

 

Bwmick

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How many of the 17 in central Ontario have you found? (I have found them all.)

 

Whoa Dano!! Your reply indicates there are only 17 in 'Central Ontario' , and you've found them all !!

 

Better check your atlas, or define 'your' Central Ontario. Have you done the ones around Bancroft ?

 

I've only done one (a poor hide, clearly visable, minimal 'stash', no challenge, and not an interesting location) and have since avoided any others, on a matter of principle, as I believe they are commercializing 'our' sport, and I believe the GC posting should entice us to visit the site, not entice us to win something.

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How many of the 17 in central Ontario have you found? (I have found them all.)

 

Whoa Dano!! Your reply indicates there are only 17 in 'Central Ontario' , and you've found them all !!

 

I am specifically referring to the EOGSL series. There are exactly 17. Sorry if that is not the "central ontario" series. I thought that was what they referred to this series as.

 

Regardless, opinions on the merits -- or lack thereof -- of these caches is irrelevant to the point I am making: A false statement in a public forum. That's what I am calling here.

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I am specifically referring to the EOGSL series. There are exactly 17. Sorry if that is not the "central ontario" series. I thought that was what they referred to this series as.

 

 

I believe you'll find the 'SL' series refers to the 'South Lake series' placed by the EASTERN Ontario GPSTH people. You are correct, the 'SL' series has exactly 17 entries. However the SL Series in only one of nine series of Active (for 2006!) Cache sets, placed by the EOGPSTH., and is about the only series located close to you - so far !

 

We border one of the other nine series - the NH/CC series of EOGPSTH; and we're hemmed in from the north by the NOGPSTH caches as well.

 

I don't believe there is any OGPSTH activity labelled 'Central Ontario' - YET! Are we looking forward to a set of 'COGPSTH' series ? So far I believe the general Muskoka/Haliburton and WGS areas are clear; but there have already been initial efforts to get these 'commercial' caches sponsored in here as well. If they cleaned up their placement and maintenance acts; they could be a welcome addition to the geocaching community. But, the quest for $$$ seems to be foremost; while the environment (and consequently - 'our' sport) may suffer.

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Please note that I am not debating the merits -- or lack thereof -- of these caches, or the group that placed them or their motives.

 

I am simply responding to a post where the poster quoted me, then drew a false conclusion from it, putting words in my mouth. No anger. Just pointing it out. That's what happens in public forums.

 

Instead of recognizing the error, they make a follow up to "clarify" things. Instead of clarifying, they make a false statement based on their apparent belief that because they found some caches bungee-corded to a tree in the open that therefore ALL caches by this group are placed the same way. The rest of the opinions that follow in that post are irrelevant to the issue I am trying to address: misquoting me, and putting words in my mouth.

 

That's all.

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I've only done one (a poor hide, clearly visable, minimal 'stash', no challenge, and not an interesting location) and have since avoided any others, on a matter of principle, as I believe they are commercializing 'our' sport, and I believe the GC posting should entice us to visit the site, not entice us to win something.

 

Not going to get into the debate between you and Dano, just writing to say that I have also only done one, they had hidden it, but by putting in a crook of a tree and then laying a very large rock over it. So you have a cache, two feet off the ground with a rock that can't possible have fallen there as cover. It looked really bad and obvious. The contents were miserable. It was in the general location of some interesting things but they had found about the most uninteresting spot for that locale that they could. I'm not impressed.

 

I respect Cache-tech's oversight of the issue but at the same I am worried like you are about the commercialization of the sport. However, they are not alone, there is a lot of money being made through the sale of geocoins including people putting adds on their cache pages for sales. I think this shows that the grey area has been surpassed and the commericialization genie has been let out of the bottle.

 

JD

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I totally understand what you guys are all saying, in that these CEC caches are skirting the boundary.

 

But so far no one has illustrated how these are actually commercial listings. Whether they are poor hides or good hides does not make them commercial.

 

If someone wants to give a referrence to a listed Geocache on this site, that has a commercial version on their site... by all means.

 

But if you are all just commenting on the 'quality' of these hides, then maybe you should start posting 'honest log entries' about your feelings.

 

It's high time that Geocachers take some responsibility in the direction of this activity, from an internal perspective.

 

Time and again we all read logs that say "Nice cache, thanks for the hide"... and when we get there we think "What the heck is this?"... or "This cache sucked!" I'm not suggesting that people be rude in their entries, but isn't it time for some honest feedback?

 

Based upon some of the poor effort in cache placement that has been growing over the last two or so years, along with the decline in quality in the old and forgotten caches.... things are not going to improve unless people step up and take some form of action.

 

If you don't like how those people are hiding caches.... then start posting logs that explain your feelings.

 

Otherwise... expect the same to continue, and become the norm.

 

:( The Blue Quasar

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One of the things that really bothers me about the series of caches is that when you click on the owner's profile they aren't even listed as being premium members, so they don't appear to be paying the annual token amount it takes to become a premium member. It seem to me that they're leeching off the goodwill of Groundspeak.

 

I inadvertantly did one of them when I was out doing a random cache run, but I generally ignore them as do some other cachers I know.

 

There is no ambiguity in my mind about whether these are commercial caches or not. They are.

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I have removed all of these caches from my "stroller-friendly" cache bookmark lists, and I will not look for them anymore. The last one I went to claimed to be terrain 1, difficulty 1, but I had to go through posion ivy, climb a compost heap, and wade through a swamp to get it.

 

These people should either respect the geocaching.com guidelines and put some thought and effort into their caches and their cache listings, or they should just put the caches on their own website.

 

The commercial aspect of these caches irritates me, but not nearly as much as the complete disrespect they demonstrate with their cut & paste cache listings that ALL seem to be terrain 1, difficulty 1.

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I think they must have found someone new to do there hides in the North Bay Area. They have made some in that last 6 months that require actual hikes and take you to interesting places. On the last on I did the hide was still bungied to a tree but the tree was harder to find than usual. but the hike in itself was exceptional. Walk down a trail with obvious atv traffic for a little while, then beaver dam - find a way across it and then choose your way through a variety of trails to get to the cache site. and when I arrived (fairly early morning) I was rewarded with fog lifting off the river and fast moving water over a small waterfall. I really didn't even notice the mosquitoes due to the pleasure I had in getting to and from the cache (and they were thick). Agreed they could use a better cache page composer but they usually have a decent write up about why they chose the spot they did in the cache. (but again when the bugs are bad who stops to read) and they really need to check out what they rating mean. they have placed several 5/5 containers but you can walk to them and they are in trees, so 1/4 might be a more realistic interpretation of the difficulty.

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Hi all,

 

I only read about half of the posts so maybe what I am about to say has been said already...

 

I know the guys at the CEC including Bill Steer and the past placer of these caches, Rob. I took the Green Check GPS Instructor course last year and spent a weekend at the CEC in Mattawa and spent a good deal of time talking with Bill and Rob about their caches and caching in general.

 

Bill Steer is the head of the CEC (which runs OGPSTH and the others) but himself does not go geocaching. He is a very bright individual and his only goal in life, it seems, is to educate and help others understand nature, the outdoors, and now GPS/map reading skills. He is very good at what he does but I get the impression the business and admin are not his strong suit. He strikes you as kind of one of those nutty professor types.

 

When I was there last year, a fellow by the name of Rob was the coordinator of the OGPSTH program. I know Rob has now moved on. They have been doing these caches for a few years now and each year there are "Active" caches (as listed on their site) and "Past" caches. Only the Active ones are eligible for this year's prizes. We have won a night's stay at the Best Western in North Bay as well as a night's stay at the CEC for this year (not used yet).

 

My comment on locations and the caches themselves:

 

1) whoever was there before Rob put out some OK caches and some not so OK caches. Most were in pretty boring places as have been mentioned.

 

2) Rob was more of the outdoorsy type so a lot of the ones he put out once he took over involved much longer hikes into more remote areas and beautiful scenery.

 

3) I don't know who the new person is and I haven't done any of this year's Active ones yet so I can't comment on them.

 

4) I know the intention for bungee cording them to trees is to make them easier to find. With all the snow up there, having the caches 4 feet above ground on a tree makes them winter friendly...something I wish more cachers would consider before burying a cache in the root of a large tree.

 

5) Making them easier to find, in their opinion, will hopefully encourage families and new cachers to get into the sport. I think there are pros and cons to this argument but to each his own.

 

My comments on the $$ aspect:

 

To understand why they got into charging companies to place a cache for them, you need to take a step back and look at why they decided to do this...yes, they get a grant from the government but that by no means covers their costs. If you saw the facility they built and know the programs they put on, you would understand. It is a fantastic idea that brings in youth groups and other organizations and teaches them all about the wild and now GPS/map reading.

 

They also have cottages that you can rent right there. It is a beautiful place to stay, right in the middle of Samuel de Champlain Provincial Park. I was able to walk right in the footsteps of Champlain and others on the portage there (pretty cool to see it...footsteps worn down the earth a foot over the last 250 plus years).

 

They also charge for he programs, though not a lot so that anyone can afford it. To do all of this, they need $$$. I doubt they are trying to get rich off of the caches. If you think about it, $250 times maybe 50 new caches a year isn't a lot when you also factor in the travel costs and such to place them. The profits go into their education programs, not lining someone's pockets.

 

Because I have seen the programs up close, them making a few $$ doesn't bother me in the least. To give you an example, I took the course last year as they offered the instrucotr's program free to scouting leaders in Ontario. That was about a $200 value for free. Their goal was for us then to be teaching scouting groups about GPS and map reading and then bringing them up to CEC for the weekend for additional training if desired....for free. After taking the course, I can also borrow a kit of 30 GPS12s for free which they will ship to me (I pay the shipping) if they are to used for youth training. I have done so twice now and my Cubs go nuts when I get them for a weekend camp.

 

Conclusions:

 

First, I would agree the descriptions are not much good. That is my one big complaint about these caches. While they are not perfect, they are better than a lot I seem to be finding these days.

 

Bottom line, I hope what I have shared above sheds some light on the CEC and what they are trying to do. Maybe even one or two of you wouldn't be so critical of their methods now. Could it be better? Sure.... but like many times it seems in our society these days, we are pretty quick to judge someone's motivations without actually finding out what they really are. I think most of the time, our preconceived notions are wrong but we love to get all high and mighty on other people (myself included) and their actions without knowing the full story.

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I wouldn't comment on any one's motives, since I don't know these people, but I do feel free to comment on their caches. With a few notable exceptions the caches I've found by these people are not good caches, they are not well located, they are not well hidden and they are not well maintained. Are there other cachers out there putting out 'bad' caches? Certainly, but there are a lot of 'bad' caches here, over a couple of years now!

 

I won't bother with them anymore.

 

Do the people coughing up $250 a year for a cache know this?

 

Bluelamb03

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I'm sure we all appreciate Cache-tech's efforts with this issue. Not easy having to address some of these things.

 

I do, however, think that the issues go beyond this event (not a single attended note). Among the issues that have emerged are:

 

-the general perception of poor cache quality, something I fully agree with.

-the apparent lack of maintenance of these caches, the quality of maintenance would appear to be spotty at best

-the perception of the commercialization of geocaching, their motives may be noble to support the CEC but they are charging for the placement of caches and, from the postings on this and other boards, many seem to feel this is against the spirit of the geocaching rules if not specifically the letter. This issue needs to be clarified for all geocachers to understand the distinction here.

 

The OGTH are not doing themselves any favours and are not enhancing their reputation in the geocaching community by creating these issues and then having such problems with their event. Hopefully these issues/problems can be addressed and resolved.

 

JD

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I have been reading all this with great interest. Here is an idea I'd like to throw out for some feedback.

 

The Ontario GPS Treasure Hunt caches are in trouble..no money!..or not enough staff! .. or too much distance.. pick one. The idea is good.. more caches to get people started.

 

Yet there are cachers all over the province who are there, and have the local knowledge.

 

What if the OGA ( Ontario Geocaches Association) took over the hiding of caches. Some sort of co-operative effort for the betterment of all.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Murfster

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looks like they are out to collect more money

they are now asking for up to $500.00 to be a sponsor for caches in the Northumberland County area

Plus $10.00 to find caches that are listed on Groundspeak

 

link http://www.northcfdc.ca/Geo_Challenge_2007/info.htm

 

I'm doing a slow burn here. I hope this isn't the start of the commercialization of a wonderful hobby. I hate the fact that they are trying to promote this as a tourist 'attraction'. And putting company logos all over their website.

 

Looking at the sponsership info however, the rate for a basic cache is now only $50 however, the $500 is for the 'Platinum' level.

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The commercialization started a long time ago when the first travelbug tag was sold. But people like buying TBs and geocoins, so they don't complain except when someone other than Groundspeak tries to cover their costs. But I digress....

 

Events cost money to put on and if the entrance fee for the event is to cover their costs or is a user fee charged by the venue, I don't have a real problem with that. One complaint I have about the treasure hunt caches is that they tend to be rather uninspired caches. But the thing that probably nags at me the most is that when you visit the profile for the owner of these caches you discover that they haven't even paid for a premium membership, so they are generating revenue from a service many of us are paying for.

 

With respect to the recently posted event in the Ottawa area, I am undecided as to whether I will attend.

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looks like they are out to collect more money

they are now asking for up to $500.00 to be a sponsor for caches in the Northumberland County area

Plus $10.00 to find caches that are listed on Groundspeak

 

link http://www.northcfdc.ca/Geo_Challenge_2007/info.htm

 

I'm confused...

 

Are these the same folks from the NOGPSTH / Candian Ecology Center ???

The website has no mention of the Northern Ontario GPS Treasure Hunt... BUT ...

 

On the plus side...

  • Their website is much prettier than the CEC site :anitongue:
  • "all proceeds going to participating local health foundations" What's this? Giving money back to the community?! This can't be the CEC can it??? :lol:
  • The 'sponsorship' money would presumably go to the local health foundations. Sponsorships run anywhere from $50 to $500.
  • There IS a $10 entry fee, but that does give you entry into the prize draws I guess.

 

If this IS CEC, they could learn a thing or two from Shawna Lee if this is her initiative.

 

Personally, I don't find this as being a money grab event like the CEC events appear to be. I can't comment on the caches involved because I didn't see a list of them. Let's hope they aren't gigantic white buckets with nothing inside, bungied to trees. :laughing:

 

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