The No Numbers Game

[+Quest Master]

If there were no numbers (such as found counters on cache pages and stats in profiles),

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

 

STOP THE MADNESS!

[+humanloofa]

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Probably even more so

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

No but they would find spmething else to complain about for days on end

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

YES, people like to hide and people like to find.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Probably not.

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

Possibly, but it would be to show off a cool container rather than for numbers.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

Maybee, because people would still keep track of the numbers.

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

I'm willing to bet so, numbers won't change some people oppinions.

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

Probably not, but there are idiots out there.

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

Maybee a few, but I'm willing to bet far more gave it up because of all the fighting going on. ( not just in the forums)

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

Seriously doubt it.

 

 

The question I have is would you be able to find geocoins in caches instead of event tables?

[+BlueDeuce]

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Probably even more so

Yes

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

No but they would find spmething else to complain about for days on end

No

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

YES, people like to hide and people like to find.

Yes

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Probably not.

No

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

Possibly, but it would be to show off a cool container rather than for numbers.

Yes

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

Maybee, because people would still keep track of the numbers.

Yes

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

I'm willing to bet so, numbers won't change some people oppinions.

Yes

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

Probably not, but there are idiots out there.

Yes

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

Maybee a few, but I'm willing to bet far more gave it up because of all the fighting going on. ( not just in the forums)

No

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

Seriously doubt it.

No

 

Too much work separate humanloofa's from mine. I don't think it's needed anyway.

Edited June 22, 2006 by BlueDeuce

[+Team JSAM]

[+CheshireFrog]

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Probably not.

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

No, but there would be an 18 page thread calling for the establishment of a numbers game.

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

Probably. Some people actually enjoy these.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Probably. Some people log these multiples as a personal record.

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

Yes, but they wouldn't be logged.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

Nope. With no numbers there's no reason to be in a hurry.

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

Probably. Some people resent others having a good time.

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

Probably not.

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

Most assuredly not.

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

No, but the people who's only joy in life is having more of something than somebody else would fade away.

 

By the way, all of the above proposed changes would effect my game or enjoyment of not one iota.

[+meatstack]

I typically don't post here, as reading these forums usually makes me annoyed/want to cry, but I do want to post on this one.

 

I think there would be alot less activity if there were no numbers.

 

subsitute Geocahing for any other sport/hobby

 

Would you golf if there were no score?

 

Would people play baseball?

 

Would people bowl?

 

Would people hunt if what they shot did not matter?

 

The score is a number - nothing more. If people want to do silly things to boost their score, they are only cheating themselves. There's no prize for most finds.

 

Personally, I would just keep track myself, but that means more bookwork, and less time actually enjoying the game.

[+Bill & Tammy]

"Imagine there's no numbers

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to cheat or lie for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace..."

[+bwmick]

most people don't rely on the web to count for them. they know how many caches they have found (one way or another) and if they are into it they will be only too happy to advertise their stats. I am not a very competitive person, I don't live in a terribly cache rich region, but I still want to have a higher number than my friend/cache partner old wraith.

 

I suppose what I am getting at is that people will count and advertise their numbers if it is a function of the website or not, and because of this other people will comment on said numbers.

 

now in the immortal words of someone "fight yeh beggers I hate peace."

 

bwmick

[+Totem Clan]

"Imagine there's no numbers

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to cheat or lie for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace..."

*holds lighter over head. sways from side to side*

[+briansnat]

Without the counts there would be far fewer geoachers and geocaches. It is about the numbers for a large percentage of the participants.

[+TrailGators]

"Imagine there's no numbers

It isn't hard to do

Nothing to cheat or lie for

And no religion too

Imagine all the people

Living life in peace..."

*holds lighter over head. sways from side to side*

[+The Jester]

I seriously doubt that not having the website track the numbers would change things all that much. Except the numbers would be harder to prove - "I tell you I did find xxx caches!" "Prove it!" "Go read the logbooks". The verbage would change a little, maybe.

 

Records would still be kept - I would just so I know how many I've found - speed runs would still happen so that the "most finds in xx time" claims could be broadcast.

 

The one thing that would probably happen is the GC would run slower, as everyone was re-reading cache pages to see it they'd logged that one or not.

[+TrailGators]

Without the counts there would be far fewer geoachers and geocaches. It is about the numbers for a large percentage of the participants.

I would still do it! I could care less about the numbers.

[+Tsegi Mike and Desert Viking]

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

 

Yup.

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

 

I dont know.

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

 

Yes. People love to hunt regardless of numbers. We like the thrill of the hunt, even parking lot micros.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

 

Probably, if they were taught to do so.

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

 

Yes.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

 

Not sure. Depends on whether or not people would still do record runs.

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

 

Probably.

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

 

Probably.

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

 

I wouldnt. I would keep track of my finds privately. Again, we enjoy the thrill of the hunt, not number crunching.

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

 

Geocide? Maybe not. There would be plenty of griping though.

[+TrailGators]

After thinking about it some more I think it would make a lot of people really unhappy to take away the numbers. All that grief isn't worth it. But it would be interesting if you had the option to hide your own numbers! Maybe that would be the best of both worlds?! I wonder how many would do that?

Edited June 22, 2006 by TrailGators

[+Hokers]

Can somone explain to me the signing the container thing? Do people do this when the the log is missing or full? Or is it an attemt to leave a more permament mark on the cache?

 

For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

[+carleenp]

My answer to all the questions is I don't know and since it isn't that way, there is no way to tell. And that is OK with me.

[+Renegade Knight]

If there were no numbers (such as found counters on cache pages and stats in profiles),

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

 

STOP THE MADNESS!

 

Yes to all of the above. If you make counting the numers harder, they will still be counted. Just in a way that's different than today.

[+Miragee]

Can somone explain to me the signing the container thing? Do people do this when the the log is missing or full? Or is it an attemt to leave a more permament mark on the cache?

 

For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

Before the recent Mega-Event in Texas, a group decided to try for the most caches found in 24 hours.

 

To save time, instead of signing the logbook, which is what all other Geocachers do to prove they found a cache, they marked the outside of the containers with DRR, for Dallas Record Run.

 

Three weeks ago there was an enormous amount of angst in these Forums about that . . .

 

If you do a Search, you can read all about it . . .

 

Edit to add appropriate quote

Edited June 22, 2006 by Miragee

[+Renegade Knight]

...For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

 

They once removed them from the log and it just showed how much we rely on knowing someons experience level to make decisions.

 

If a newbie can't find my 4/4 cache I'm not too worried it's missing. If an old timer can't find my 1/1 I'm going to check on it right away. By knowing someone and their history you start to get a feel for what they should be able to find. It can tell you when things are amis. It's not 100% accurate but it's helpful.

[+Poidawg]

I personally do not care about my numbers or anyone else's. Im interested in geocaching for the fun of it. Some cachers are more interested in the numbers, and there are alot who are very, very, very competitive. As far as being amiss - I was born that way...

[+Glenn]

...For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

 

They once removed them from the log and it just showed how much we rely on knowing someons experience level to make decisions.

 

If a newbie can't find my 4/4 cache I'm not too worried it's missing. If an old timer can't find my 1/1 I'm going to check on it right away. By knowing someone and their history you start to get a feel for what they should be able to find. It can tell you when things are amis. It's not 100% accurate but it's helpful.

 

I really havn't found find that count is equal experiance level. It only approximates it. I've seen caches that evade those with a high cache find count only to have someone with a low cache find count be the FTF. Is there really reason to show someones exact find count, except to boast and be competitive.

 

I would like to see the numbers go away and a ranking system used. For example, (these are only rough numbers) 0-20 finds you would be ranked a pollywog. 20-14999 finds you would be ranked a geocacher. 15000+ find would mean you were CCCooperAgency.

[+Glenn]

Without the counts there would be far fewer geoachers and geocaches. It is about the numbers for a large percentage of the participants.

When Waymarking was in an early beta a scoreboard showing everyones total visit count was introduced. I noticed that lots of visits were being made to the weblog waymarks. The scoreboard has gone away and so has the crazy rush to visit every weblog waymark. I hope the scoreboard never returns!

[+ReadyOrNot]

Why is it that the blame always seems to get put everywhere except where it belongs... For example:

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Blame it on the numbers. It certainly isn't the cheaters fault.

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

Again. It's the numbers, not the cheaters

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

Lazy cachers? Nope, it's the numbers.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Those cheaters wouldn't do it if not for those blasted numbers!

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

While we're at it, can we blame this on bad parenting... Anything except putting the blame on cheaters.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

Now vandalism is the fault of numbers eh?

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

I'm with you for just a second....

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

Not anymore. I've never had a log deleted... Because my parents raised me to not be a cheater.

 

[Iwuzere]

Live and let live.

Ignore the numbers if that doesn't appeal to you.. just leave them to it. It doesn't affect your personal take on the game does it? Why get annoyed with other people doing what appeals to them? That's just intolerance. Do your thing and enjoy it without letting the rest of the world spoil it for you.

 

[+Renegade Knight]

...For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

 

They once removed them from the log and it just showed how much we rely on knowing someons experience level to make decisions.

 

If a newbie can't find my 4/4 cache I'm not too worried it's missing. If an old timer can't find my 1/1 I'm going to check on it right away. By knowing someone and their history you start to get a feel for what they should be able to find. It can tell you when things are amis. It's not 100% accurate but it's helpful.

 

I really havn't found find that count is equal experiance level. It only approximates it. I've seen caches that evade those with a high cache find count only to have someone with a low cache find count be the FTF. Is there really reason to show someones exact find count, except to boast and be competitive.

 

I would like to see the numbers go away and a ranking system used. For example, (these are only rough numbers) 0-20 finds you would be ranked a pollywog. 20-14999 finds you would be ranked a geocacher. 15000+ find would mean you were CCCooperAgency.

 

Correlations are never exact. You alwasy have to use judgment. I'd stack 100 in the old days vs. 500 today any day of the week. However as a tool it's handy. Your sytem with a slight tweak would probably be about as handy. A few finds pollywog, a few more, tadpoke, a bunch a froglett, a truckload a frog, and bazillions a geocacher. I'd fill in that space between 20-149999 with a few more levels to give a better gage.

 

As an aside I've also used a benchmark cache as a method of knowing who can do what. Newbie or Old Timer alike if they found that cache they should find mine and if they haven't they will have a hard time. It's held up fairly well using that scale.

[+Renegade Knight]

Live and let live.

Ignore the numbers if that doesn't appeal to you.. just leave them to it. It doesn't affect your personal take on the game does it? Why get annoyed with other people doing what appeals to them? That's just intolerance. Do your thing and enjoy it without letting the rest of the world spoil it for you.

 

 

Very nice.

[+ReadyOrNot]

Live and let live.

Ignore the numbers if that doesn't appeal to you.. just leave them to it. It doesn't affect your personal take on the game does it? Why get annoyed with other people doing what appeals to them? That's just intolerance. Do your thing and enjoy it without letting the rest of the world spoil it for you.

 

 

Very nice.

 

Boy, that's right out of the humanist handbook... Unfortunately, some of us believe that there is an actual right and wrong, not just a million shades of gray. And no matter how it gets spun, you can't make cheating "right"

[+ReadyOrNot]

...For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

 

They once removed them from the log and it just showed how much we rely on knowing someons experience level to make decisions.

 

If a newbie can't find my 4/4 cache I'm not too worried it's missing. If an old timer can't find my 1/1 I'm going to check on it right away. By knowing someone and their history you start to get a feel for what they should be able to find. It can tell you when things are amis. It's not 100% accurate but it's helpful.

 

I really havn't found find that count is equal experiance level. It only approximates it. I've seen caches that evade those with a high cache find count only to have someone with a low cache find count be the FTF. Is there really reason to show someones exact find count, except to boast and be competitive.

 

I would like to see the numbers go away and a ranking system used. For example, (these are only rough numbers) 0-20 finds you would be ranked a pollywog. 20-14999 finds you would be ranked a geocacher. 15000+ find would mean you were CCCooperAgency.

 

Correlations are never exact. You alwasy have to use judgment. I'd stack 100 in the old days vs. 500 today any day of the week. However as a tool it's handy. Your sytem with a slight tweak would probably be about as handy. A few finds pollywog, a few more, tadpoke, a bunch a froglett, a truckload a frog, and bazillions a geocacher. I'd fill in that space between 20-149999 with a few more levels to give a better gage.

 

As an aside I've also used a benchmark cache as a method of knowing who can do what. Newbie or Old Timer alike if they found that cache they should find mine and if they haven't they will have a hard time. It's held up fairly well using that scale.

 

That would make the competition even more nasty. If it takes 500 more finds to get to the frog level, you can bet everyone is going to go nuts trying to get to the next level. The Geocaching RPG game.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Boy, that's right out of the humanist handbook... Unfortunately, some of us believe that there is an actual right and wrong, not just a million shades of gray. And no matter how it gets spun, you can't make cheating "right"

 

I had to read your post twice to figure it out. Cheating to get numbers is wrong. Numbers by themselves just are. They are neither right or wong. I'm still not quite sure if you were talking about numbers or cheating to get them.

[+ReadyOrNot]

...Boy, that's right out of the humanist handbook... Unfortunately, some of us believe that there is an actual right and wrong, not just a million shades of gray. And no matter how it gets spun, you can't make cheating "right"

 

I had to read your post twice to figure it out. Cheating to get numbers is wrong. Numbers by themselves just are. They are neither right or wong. I'm still not quite sure if you were talking about numbers or cheating to get them.

 

Sorry... Yes, certainly about cheaters and the attitude that there is no right and wrong and that the truth is what you believe it to be. Some people believe that the truth is "discovered", where some believe that the truth is "created". I think these two very different ways of thinking are what seperates most of the discussions in these forums. If truth is created, then everyone can have their own truth. If truth is discovered, then there is only one truth.

 

Sorry - Back OT

[+Davispak]

There are two types of cachers, those who say they like the numbers and the ones who lie and say the numbers don't matter. So these people are saying they didn't think it was cool to get to 100, 500, 1000 caches? LIARS!

[+ReadyOrNot]

There are two types of cachers, those who say they like the numbers and the ones who lie and say the numbers don't matter. So these people are saying they didn't think it was cool to get to 100, 500, 1000 caches? LIARS!

 

Let's not call people liars. It's okay to lie as long as you think it's okay. You are being intolerant to the truth-incapable. I've been truth-incapable for over 5 years now and I've never felt more free!!!

[+TrailGators]

There are two types of cachers, those who say they like the numbers and the ones who lie and say the numbers don't matter. So these people are saying they didn't think it was cool to get to 100, 500, 1000 caches? LIARS!

I think at some point many cachers can get caught up in the numbers thing. But after a while some recognize that it is leading to obsessive compulsive behavior. So they stop and look at the behavior and some change their ways. Anyhow, that is my case. I did care about the numbers but now I don't. I decided that I prefer to find less caches in beautiful areas then finding more caches in parking lots. So when I said I don't care about the numbers anymore it is the truth. I continue to enjoy caching and I still log caches and upload my photos to capture all the good times.

Edited June 22, 2006 by TrailGators

[+RichardMoore]

Why is it that the blame always seems to get put everywhere except where it belongs... For example:

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Blame it on the numbers. It certainly isn't the cheaters fault.

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

Again. It's the numbers, not the cheaters

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

Lazy cachers? Nope, it's the numbers.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Those cheaters wouldn't do it if not for those blasted numbers!

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

While we're at it, can we blame this on bad parenting... Anything except putting the blame on cheaters.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

Now vandalism is the fault of numbers eh?

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

I'm with you for just a second....

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

Not anymore. I've never had a log deleted... Because my parents raised me to not be a cheater.

 

Just out of curiousity, have you ever called someone a cheater while standing right in front of them?

Or are you only that rude from the safety of the internet?

[+TrailGators]

Just out of curiousity, have you ever called someone a cheater while standing right in front of them? Or are you only that rude from the safety of the internet?

He still has the safety of the Internet to answer that question....

Edited June 22, 2006 by TrailGators

[+ReadyOrNot]

Just out of curiousity, have you ever called someone a cheater while standing right in front of them?

Or are you only that rude from the safety of the internet?

 

Honestly.. I've never actually met a geocaching cheater yet. Perhaps they don't exist? If I met someone who was truly a cheater, I wouldn't hesitate to let them know that it's not right for them to do that. Personally, I think the vast majority of cachers don't cheat... I was trying to be humorous in my above post, but you seem to have taken offense. Have something to share? You can start with "My name is ......"

 

To answer your question: The majority of people I hang out with aren't morally bankrupt, so I don't have to confront anyone about these types of things. If a friend of mine was cheating, I certainly would say something to them, yes.. The tone of your message has a bit of a "threatening" tone.. I do believe this is against forum guidelines.

Edited June 22, 2006 by ReadyOrNot

[+bwmick]

my name is Bryan

 

i watched today as our grade 3 class self marked a math page. the teacher called out out the answer and the kids marked their sheets. One child called me over to tell me child B was cheating. I answered that no matter what mark they put on the paper they know whether they really got the answer or not. The score's were not being collected as report cards are already done. Was Child B right to fudge his final tally?

 

the fact is onlt two groups of people will know if the score he marks down is correct, Himself and anyone who cares to check the paper.

 

Welcome to grade 3, feel free to check my paper. But If I miscounted please let it go, I either already know or it's an honest mistake. Either way it is really only my problem.

 

we have a name for people who run to the teacher and tell us what we already know about what is happening in the classroom or schoolyard. Wanna guess what it is?

 

Bwmick

 

edited to add name

Edited June 22, 2006 by bwmick

[+ReadyOrNot]

my name is Bryan

 

i watched today as our grade 3 class self marked a math page. the teacher called out out the answer and the kids marked their sheets. One child called me over to tell me child B was cheating. I answered that no matter what mark they put on the paper they know whether they really got the answer or not. The score's were not being collected as report cards are already done. Was Child B right to fudge his final tally?

 

the fact is onlt two groups of people will know if the score he marks down is correct, Himself and anyone who cares to check the paper.

 

Welcome to grade 3, feel free to check my paper. But If I miscounted please let it go, I either already know or it's an honest mistake. Either way it is really only my problem.

 

we have a name for people who run to the teacher and tell us what we already know about what is happening in the classroom or schoolyard. Wanna guess what it is?

 

Bwmick

 

edited to add name

 

There's a name for parents that raise their kids to behave in that manner also... If my child cheated on anything, he would find out in a hurry that it's a NO NO. Any parent that tells their child, "Billy, you decide if you want to cheat, because it's not anyone's business but your own", is setting that poor child up to fail.

 

By the way, who exactly is checking on your stats? You sound a bit paranoid to me.

[+bwmick]

hey ready,

 

I am not paranoid at all. my numbers are low and rock solid. I might hit 100 sometime before July if I'm lucky

 

I tend to agree about truth and teaching personal responsability to our kids. but I am also no longer as idealistic as I was when I was 20. I am becoming more and more aware that I can have a bigger impact on the life of a person by leading by example than by beating them over the head until the see it my way. I will explain to any child in the schoolyard the benefits of being responsible for their actions, for taking the time to think before they act or speak, and even try to use both positive and negative examples from my own past to show them what I mean.

 

when I invited the group to check my numbers I was merely pointing out that anyone at anytime can see how we play, but that we probably don't need a cache cop to keep us honest.

 

yours in personal imperfection.

 

bryan

[+RichardMoore]

Just out of curiosity, have you ever called someone a cheater while standing right in front of them?

Or are you only that rude from the safety of the internet?

 

Honestly.. I've never actually met a geocaching cheater yet. Perhaps they don't exist? If I met someone who was truly a cheater, I wouldn't hesitate to let them know that it's not right for them to do that. Personally, I think the vast majority of cachers don't cheat... I was trying to be humorous in my above post, but you seem to have taken offense. Have something to share? You can start with "My name is ......"

 

To answer your question: The majority of people I hang out with aren't morally bankrupt, so I don't have to confront anyone about these types of things. If a friend of mine was cheating, I certainly would say something to them, yes.. The tone of your message has a bit of a "threatening" tone.. I do believe this is against forum guidelines.

Let's see now, so far you've implied that I'm a cheater and morally bankrupt, and you feel threatened?

Probably because you know that you're wrong.

How I keep track of my finds is my business, although I'm sure that by now you are carefully perusing my logs in search of what you consider to be cheating.

I don't play the game by your interpretation of the guidelines, you self-righteous little busybody.

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Can somone explain to me the signing the container thing? Do people do this when the the log is missing or full? Or is it an attemt to leave a more permament mark on the cache?

 

For the record I like the middle ground of removing the counts everywhere except the profile.

 

The 'signing the container thing' is yammering by folks that can't let something go.

 

I led a team on a world record cache run attempt, to see how many caches we could find in 24 hours (312, by the way). As a time-saving device we decided to use a Sharpie pen to write 'DRR' (Dallas Record Run) on each container rather than open the container, dig out the log, sign and replace it - sometimes a time-consuming activity.

 

The overwhelming consensus of the geocaching community, and most vocally this online community, was that this was a bad move.

 

We apologized, offered to pay for or replace any cache we signed at the owner's request (none did) and that should have been the end of it - lesson learned.

 

There are some here however that delight in dragging it up over and over.

 

For the record I think numbers should be dropped, too; they are wildly inaccurate and meaningless in most cases, and will never serve as the measure of a geocacher.

 

Ed

Edited June 22, 2006 by TheAlabamaRambler

[+ReadyOrNot]

hey ready,

 

I am not paranoid at all. my numbers are low and rock solid. I might hit 100 sometime before July if I'm lucky

 

I tend to agree about truth and teaching personal responsability to our kids. but I am also no longer as idealistic as I was when I was 20. I am becoming more and more aware that I can have a bigger impact on the life of a person by leading by example than by beating them over the head until the see it my way. I will explain to any child in the schoolyard the benefits of being responsible for their actions, for taking the time to think before they act or speak, and even try to use both positive and negative examples from my own past to show them what I mean.

 

when I invited the group to check my numbers I was merely pointing out that anyone at anytime can see how we play, but that we probably don't need a cache cop to keep us honest.

 

yours in personal imperfection.

 

bryan

 

Hey Bryan (you spell it the same as my brother.. First I've seen in a long time),

 

I agree with everything you just wrote. My kids are 10, 8 and 7.. I use the approach you mentioned above with my 10 year old, whereas I may do things a bit more "less gentle and pleasant" with my 7 year old.

 

Every cacher I've ever met has been honest. I sometimes wonder if the problem this debate is based on really even exists... (But it's fun to argue and debate)

 

Take care,

Shawn

[+ReadyOrNot]

We apologized, offered to pay for or replace any cache we signed at the owner's request (none did) and that should have been the end of it - lesson learned.

 

You took personal responsibility, realized it was wrong and apologized. We all make mistakes. Everyone should definitely drop it. The creator of this thread seems to think that you wouldn't have done that if they eliminated numbers. What's your take on that?

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

If there were no numbers (such as found counters on cache pages and stats in profiles),...

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

Yes, as long as there's two people left on earth there will be bickering.

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

No, it'd be about how we need to create a numbers game.

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

No, there's not now, why would there be then? I like to find micros, I don't count them.

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

Logging events multiple times was a work-around for Pocket Caches that didn't have a page to log. With Pocket Caches dead there is no reason to do it.

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

Yes, we love Pocket Caches, currently we're using TBs as a poor substitute, but expect that Groundspeak will give us an alternative. Still - smilie or no, Pocket Caches have a role and will continue.

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

In hindsight, no, but will we continue to do numbers runs, to get say 100 a day or to find the most ever found in a day? Yes.

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

Yes, certain types of personalities will never accept the actions of other kinds.

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

No, If you weren't restoring a lost smilie there'd be no point.

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

I don't know anyone that would.

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

Nope, things change - this game will change and evolve as well.

[+JFDavis (Orion 6)]

If there were no numbers (such as found counters on cache pages and stats in profiles),

 

Would there ....

...

...

STOP THE MADNESS!

 

I'm feeling old.

 

As a graduate student I helped string some of the original internet 'wires' way back when. dadgum, it seemed like a great idea back then!

 

This is the third or fourth or fifty-ith message system that I've seen fall to 'number chasing' rants and counter-rants.

 

Considering that most folks cannot count without using their fingers it's all rather surprising!

 

Here is a simple fix: stop.

 

That's right, just don't respond one way or the other, don't participate in any form of discussion involving counts or any of it's related subjects.

 

Talk about caching or socializing with cachers or dining with cachers or anything except 'counting' anything in the game.

 

I'll start-this will be my one and only comment about counting things in the caching game.

 

I feel better already.

[+Polgara]

If there were no numbers (such as found counters on cache pages and stats in profiles),

 

Would there still be this incessant bickering about what is and isn't a find?

 

Would there be an 18 page thread squabbling about "The New Numbers Game"?

 

Would there be so many pointless parking lot micros (spew)?

 

Would people still log events multiple times?

 

Would "pocket caches" have been invented?

 

Would somebody write on the outside of containers instead of the logbook to set a record?

 

Would somebody delete somebody else's log because they signed as a team rather than an individual?

 

Would sombody else log their own cache to compensate for logs that were deleted?

 

Would everyone quit geocaching if they didn't get to score a point for each cache that they found?

 

Would there be a mass geocide if the numbers suddenly disappeared?

 

STOP THE MADNESS!

 

All I can say is Yellowbus you're takin too long, you're takin took long, so loopty loo i'll go tie my shoe. LOL

[+thedeadpirate]

There are two types of cachers, those who say they like the numbers and the ones who lie and say the numbers don't matter. So these people are saying they didn't think it was cool to get to 100, 500, 1000 caches? LIARS!

 

I'll say it again, you are not a liar if you believe what you say to be true. Here is a good example. I have been of the mind (though I don't think I've actually stated it outright) that numbers didn't matter to me. Now in my mind, I meant that I don't really care about my numbers as far as other cachers are concerned and I don't care about your numbers as far as I am concerned. However, I did think, as you just pointed out, that it was cool when I passed 100. It was a personal milestone that my wife and I got a kick out of. I don't think it means squat for anyone else and certainly not in the scheme of life.

 

Now, I still don't think my numbers mean squat to anyone else, but I guess somewhere deep inside numbers do matter at least a little. I don't think that makes me a liar though. That is such an easy word for some people to toss around. Whatever happened to being human?

[+Davispak]

To answer the earlier question...Yes I have told people they were lieing or a cheater to their face. I have NEVER done this unless I had beyond a resonable doubt proof that such was happening. I feel that there are few things in this world that we really own and your integrity is one of them.

I believe that what this discussion always comes down to is numbers. We see Joe cacher who started caching around the time we did or after we have, and we see that they go to the alot of the caches we do. They are posting and all the regular caching stuff done by us. Then we see that they are logging more caches than we do. How can that be? We cache tons and use all our spare minutes caching? They can't be getting more caches than me? How are they doing this? i mean I cache all the time... They must be doing something wrong, or are they cheating? THAT MUST BE IT! they are cheating.

My personal Opinion is that this is what is happening..Number envy. That person can't believe that someone is getting so many caches when they have to work so hard to get the few they do, they start to think the other must be doing it "illegally". It's the whole Class envy argument, but taken to a different level.

[+Mudfrog]

This isn't exactly on topic but it is something i started thinking about while reading this thread.

 

I do care about my numbers. Some may think that since i do want them to be a correct, that i also might believe this is some sort of competition where there is a winner or something. Except for friendly competition among friends, this is something i've never even thought about. A cacher's numbers don't make me think any better or worse of them as a person.

 

The one thing someone's stats might give me an indication of is their experience. The majority of the time this doesn't enter into the picture but there are times when it can. One example: a DNF on my difficulty 1 rated cache, the cacher's finds are high, i probably need to rush right out and check to see if it is missing. Oh but wait, now we have people who log events mutiple times and/or log finds for pocket and temporary caches that aren't even listed on the site. Hhmmmmm, so much for this being any kind of indication or help.

 

Let's try something else now. One thing i always see is how proud alot of cachers are to keep up with their milestones. I agree that these are fun to share with others and they're also fun to sometimes coincide with the finding of a great cache or event. Well guess what, if you logged a find on a pocket cache, then your so called milestone is moot, worthless, wrongo! I couldn't help but laugh when i saw another thread congratulating a cacher who had hit her 6000th cache find. It was also brought up in that same thread that she logged at least one event cache multiple times. By her doing this, she herself has no idea where any of her milestones are now!

 

One other thing, find counts are usually allways brought up at events and get togethers. A big number would always get a WOW or two from me and others. Well heck, i guess those WOWs are going to be a thing of the past too with all the questionable logging going on these days...

 

A bit more on topic,,,, Geocaching would not be the same without stats. This is a fun aspect of our game and if they were taken away then i believe that there would be a big decline in gecoaching activity!