Could Geocaching.com Become A Target Of Ecoterrorists?

[+Snoogans]

I work in corporate security for a large energy based company. I get paid to spot situations that could become safety issues for my company and report them upstairs. While wondering if a report on 60 Minutes about the Earth Liberation Front last night might be of interest to my superiors, I started thinking how some of the E.L.F.s agenda runs across geocaching boundaries.

 

We are, for the most part, upper middle class consumers and many of us drive large SUVs, which are an E.L.F. target. To a nutjob, we encourage the frivolous use of resources (gas) while running around hunting caches and we litter mother earth with Tupperware, ammo cans, and broken McToys. I doubt any amount of rationalization would change their mindset on these facts.

 

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist? I think not.

 

Check out this Law Enforcement Resource link.

 

The ecoterrorists probably have bigger fish to fry, but because they are a loosely associated network, it would only take one to start something. I would doubt that it would be violent in nature given that geocaching is hardly a blip on the radar, but it makes me wonder how often this cache listing site and others fend off attempts at hacking and if any of those attempts came from ecoterrorists.

[+YuccaPatrol]

Better start driving a Prius to the cache parking area and using rechargable batteries if you hope to stand a chance against ELF.

[+BlueDeuce]

They probably advocate micros over ammocans in all locations. Bunch of psychotic freaks.

[CoyoteRed]

You know what's ironic in committing arson in the name of the environment?

[+patrick&coby]

Let's not give them any ideas by posting here, but it seems they are a smarter population than other terrorists. The leaders are educated and I would bet there are a good deal of geocachers that agree with some of their ideaologies. I can't condone their actions, but I hate SUVs just as much as they do.

 

I see geocaching as something special for the environment. It gets normal everyday people out in nature. I'm an avid hiker and I've found some very special places through geocaching that I never would have found otherwise.

 

So, to any ELF'ers reading this post:

 

The environment can't be completely protected. We do have to exist with it and geocaching is a great way to let people know what you're fighting for. When a child finds a geocache just off the road in a medow they never would have known existed it gives them a greater appreciation for nature and the environment. The lectures in school become real and they can see for themselves what they have to save. Geocaching is a non-violent means of saving the environment as awareness is 90% of the battle.

Edited June 19, 2006 by patrick&coby

[bogleman]

The ecoterrorists probably have bigger fish to fry, but because they are a loosely associated network, it would only take one to start something. I would doubt that it would be violent in nature given that geocaching is hardly a blip on the radar, but it makes me wonder how often this cache listing site and others fend off attempts at hacking and if any of those attempts came from ecoterrorists.

Although any eco-terrorist organization could cause many problems I think their main goal is public attention. They want the sensationalism of the “attack”. Hacking into a computer would not give them any serious publicity and could easily be written off as another problem. I’d be more concerned about some 16-year-old kid with a lot of free time and good computer skills.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I work in corporate security for a large energy based company. I get paid to spot situations that could become safety issues for my company and report them upstairs. While wondering if a report on 60 Minutes about the Earth Liberation Front last night might be of interest to my superiors, I started thinking how some of the E.L.F.s agenda runs across geocaching boundaries.

 

We are, for the most part, upper middle class consumers and many of us drive large SUVs, which are an E.L.F. target. To a nutjob, we encourage the frivolous use of resources (gas) while running around hunting caches and we litter mother earth with Tupperware, ammo cans, and broken McToys. I doubt any amount of rationalization would change their mindset on these facts.

 

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist? I think not.

 

...The ecoterrorists probably have bigger fish to fry, but because they are a loosely associated network, it would only take one to start something. I would doubt that it would be violent in nature given that geocaching is hardly a blip on the radar, but it makes me wonder how often this cache listing site and others fend off attempts at hacking and if any of those attempts came from ecoterrorists.

Well, briefly, here are my observations:

Luckily, the number of people who are ill enough to resort to such violence in the name of their political agenda is quite tiny.

 

And, if they were gonna go looking for targets, well, gee, there are far more obvious sports and activities, with far higher public profile/awareness, and with far more participants, than geocaching.

 

Lastly, I do not drive an SUV, nor do most local cachers whom I know. I drive a beat-up Toyota which gets great gas mileage, and I am very conservative about planning cache-hunting trips (the latter is not necesarily true of my wife!)

[CoyoteRed]

I'm not sure why anyone with an ELF bent want to hack the site. It would, at best, have limited effect. The hole would be closed and the data restored. There's very little in the way of personal information, so that is of little concern. True, they could get a complete download of the caches, but who cares?

 

If a terrorist group really wanted to shut down geocaching they would use terrorist tactics. Plant a few small devices that are activated when the cache is opened and claim responsibility. Much like folks not using the subway for fear of an attack, or keeping your kids home from school from a rumor some kids are "Going Columbine," folks would fear opening the next container. Activity would drop off immediately. A few placements a year spread over the nation would put a massive dampener on activity for a long time and with little effort or risk.

 

Do I think this would happen? I'd probably buy a Lotto ticket first.

[+Snoogans]

I work in corporate security for a large energy based company. I get paid to spot situations that could become safety issues for my company and report them upstairs. While wondering if a report on 60 Minutes about the Earth Liberation Front last night might be of interest to my superiors, I started thinking how some of the E.L.F.s agenda runs across geocaching boundaries.

 

We are, for the most part, upper middle class consumers and many of us drive large SUVs, which are an E.L.F. target. To a nutjob, we encourage the frivolous use of resources (gas) while running around hunting caches and we litter mother earth with Tupperware, ammo cans, and broken McToys. I doubt any amount of rationalization would change their mindset on these facts.

 

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist? I think not.

 

...The ecoterrorists probably have bigger fish to fry, but because they are a loosely associated network, it would only take one to start something. I would doubt that it would be violent in nature given that geocaching is hardly a blip on the radar, but it makes me wonder how often this cache listing site and others fend off attempts at hacking and if any of those attempts came from ecoterrorists.

Well, briefly, here are my observations:

Luckily, the number of people who are ill enough to resort to such violence in the name of their political agenda is quite tiny.

 

And, if they were gonna go looking for targets, well, gee, there are far more obvious sports and activities, with far higher public profile/awareness, and with far more participants, than geocaching.

 

Lastly, I do not drive an SUV, nor do most local cachers whom I know. I drive a beat-up Toyota which gets great gas mileage, and I am very conservative about planning cache-hunting trips (the latter is not necesarily true of my wife!)

 

Certainly we geocachers are small potatoes, but the nerve that was struck with me was loose association of cells (meaning ONE person/nutjob could be considered a cell in some cases) and the fact that the majority of their operations take place in the west and Pacific N.W. which is the hub of our activity on TWO cache listing sites.

 

I drive an SUV mostly out of necessity. Many of the geocachers I know have families and they cache together in their SUV also out of necessity to the tune of quite a few dollars more a month than from regular usage.

 

Geocaching grows in several directions every day. We are by no means mainstream, but at the point where there are say 1.5 MILLION to 3 million active caches in the collective databases, we'd be on the world radar and possibly under the scrutiny of quite a few studies on the actual impact of our activity on the world community. Since most folks with an agenda can take raw data and make it say whatever they want..... Well..... I just find the topic interesting in the geocaching context.

 

BTW- Professionally, I'll be sending those links to my bosses when I return to work tomorrow.

[+Snoogans]

I'm not sure why anyone with an ELF bent want to hack the site. It would, at best, have limited effect. The hole would be closed and the data restored. There's very little in the way of personal information, so that is of little concern. True, they could get a complete download of the caches, but who cares?

 

If a terrorist group really wanted to shut down geocaching they would use terrorist tactics. Plant a few small devices that are activated when the cache is opened and claim responsibility. Much like folks not using the subway for fear of an attack, or keeping your kids home from school from a rumor some kids are "Going Columbine," folks would fear opening the next container. Activity would drop off immediately. A few placements a year spread over the nation would put a massive dampener on activity for a long time and with little effort or risk.

 

Do I think this would happen? I'd probably buy a Lotto ticket first.

 

I concur that your scenario is the least likely. The thought of it is sickening.

 

Harming people would hurt the ecoterrorism cause as I understand it.

 

However, if geocaching was deemed not in the best interest of mother Earth, by the wrong person or organization, making a statement by attacking the database or even the physical location of servers seems to be a bit more of a concern. We've seen the tree hugging threads already and S*T*O*P*geocachingDotCom used this sort of propaganda to spread its lies just recently.

[+Jhwk]

And since when is burning down a ski lodge good for mother earth?

 

It's dangerous when you have an advanced environmental degree, but you don't fall for the knee-jerk wacko brigade schtick. I guess I could be seen as an ecoterrorist terrorist.

[+Jhwk]

And now that I have had a few minutes to think about it, I am really dreading what happens when a whacko finds out about geocaching. I won't even post some of the thoughts or scenarios running through my mind. It's bad enough when we have folks stealing caches, coins, or TB's, or taking a dump in a cache. It could be a lot worse.

[+oscar478]

You know what's ironic in committing arson in the name of the environment?

 

Exactly- I read a story a couple years back that some folks from ELF burned a few new H2's at a hummer dealership. Complete and total loss- burned them to the metal frame.

 

A smart, and obviously upset environmentalist pointed out that the burning of 1 tire of those Hummers put more nasty stuff in the air than that H2 would have done in a 250,000 mile lifetime. Not to mention all the hoses, chemicals and other things that got burnt and spewed out.

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

I work in corporate security for a large energy based company. I get paid to spot situations that could become safety issues for my company and report them upstairs. While wondering if a report on 60 Minutes about the Earth Liberation Front last night might be of interest to my superiors, I started thinking how some of the E.L.F.s agenda runs across geocaching boundaries.

 

We are, for the most part, upper middle class consumers and many of us drive large SUVs, which are an E.L.F. target. To a nutjob, we encourage the frivolous use of resources (gas) while running around hunting caches and we litter mother earth with Tupperware, ammo cans, and broken McToys. I doubt any amount of rationalization would change their mindset on these facts.

 

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist? I think not.

 

...The ecoterrorists probably have bigger fish to fry, but because they are a loosely associated network, it would only take one to start something. I would doubt that it would be violent in nature given that geocaching is hardly a blip on the radar, but it makes me wonder how often this cache listing site and others fend off attempts at hacking and if any of those attempts came from ecoterrorists.

Well, briefly, here are my observations:

Luckily, the number of people who are ill enough to resort to such violence in the name of their political agenda is quite tiny.

 

And, if they were gonna go looking for targets, well, gee, there are far more obvious sports and activities, with far higher public profile/awareness, and with far more participants, than geocaching.

 

Lastly, I do not drive an SUV, nor do most local cachers whom I know. I drive a beat-up Toyota which gets great gas mileage, and I am very conservative about planning cache-hunting trips (the latter is not necesarily true of my wife!)

 

Certainly we geocachers are small potatoes, but the nerve that was struck with me was loose association of cells (meaning ONE person/nutjob could be considered a cell in some cases) and the fact that the majority of their operations take place in the west and Pacific N.W. which is the hub of our activity on TWO cache listing sites.

 

I drive an SUV mostly out of necessity. Many of the geocachers I know have families and they cache together in their SUV also out of necessity to the tune of quite a few dollars more a month than from regular usage.

 

Geocaching grows in several directions every day. We are by no means mainstream, but at the point where there are say 1.5 MILLION to 3 million active caches in the collective databases, we'd be on the world radar and possibly under the scrutiny of quite a few studies on the actual impact of our activity on the world community. Since most folks with an agenda can take raw data and make it say whatever they want..... Well..... I just find the topic interesting in the geocaching context.

 

BTW- Professionally, I'll be sending those links to my bosses when I return to work tomorrow.

Snoogans, I find it a bit ironic that you are suddenly worried about the safety of geocachers, and protecting them from danger and "terror" when you -- like me -- own several Terrain 5 caches, and when you own Quantum Leap, the pursuit of which likely led me to break a half-dozen laws and which found me at one point in serious danger of arrest for being present at midnight in an underground blockhouse bunker on a near-abandoned military base out in the boondocks, and where I had to backpack a radioactive cannister out of an aircraft crash site in desert country. I will not even mention details of the aftermath, the visit to my home from a USAF general, who had come to retrieve artifacts from the crash site (it all worked out well, but it was touchy at first...; I will eventually post the postscript tale and a few fotos to the website as time permits.) So, you may wish to get real: If you really wanna protect geocachers from danger and "terror" or death, you might wish to consider archiving Quantum Leap and a few of your other sick caches!

Edited June 19, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

[+Snoogans]

And now that I have had a few minutes to think about it, I am really dreading what happens when a whacko finds out about geocaching. I won't even post some of the thoughts or scenarios running through my mind. It's bad enough when we have folks stealing caches, coins, or TB's, or taking a dump in a cache. It could be a lot worse.

 

Honestly, I think that's the most of our worries for at least a few years to come. Let's see what happens when there's a million or more active caches though.

 

It's best to be proactive than reactive. Even if we just stick it on the shelf, it's always good to keep some shelved items at eye level where you can be reminded to pick them up and examine them from time to time.

 

The cache bomb angle is widely dismissed and rightly so. A bomber's agenda is usually to harm as many as possible. If a single geocacher was taken out by a device the investigation would likely center on those who knew that particular geocacher FIRST and for obvious reasons my money would be on the investigation being concluded with an arrest there. It would impact the sport in a profoundly negative way, but a subsequent arrest would help patch the wound.

 

The ecoterrorism angle is new to me and though I didn't do a gc forum search, I think it's new to the discussion of the growth of our sport. It bears watching....

Edited June 19, 2006 by Snoogans

[+wimseyguy]

Could Geocaching.com Become A Target Of Ecoterrorists?

Yes.

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist?

Yes. Now go back to work, or out to play. This thinking too much is detremential to your mental health.

 

And let's not forget that those burned out hummers are just rusting and rotting in a junkyard, or landfill now too.

[+AtoZ]

Well I would consider all the people to smoke that throw there cigarette butts on the ground to be a bigger target as they cause more of an environmental impact. But then again all the geotrails people leave. Maybe better start checking for punji pits and mantraps on geotrails.

cheers

[+Snoogans]

Could Geocaching.com Become A Target Of Ecoterrorists?

Yes.

Am I being alarmist or sensationalist?

Yes. Now go back to work, or out to play. This thinking too much is detremential to your mental health.

 

And let's not forget that those burned out hummers are just rusting and rotting in a junkyard, or landfill now too.

 

Bbbbbut I can't go out and play. Houston is flooded. It has rained for my entire weekend. I had some serious cache maintenance to do today and 2 new caches to place. Looks like it's on hold until I return from the west coast now.

[+AtoZ]

If I had know this was from Snoogans I guess I should have left a 5 page discourse on the evils of ELF and its fanatical view and another 5 pages on the geocachers view of the environment.

cheers

[+Renegade Knight]

This already happens. It just doesn't have a fancy schmancy organization organized using cells behind it.

[+Snoogans]

This already happens. It just doesn't have a fancy schmancy organization organized using cells behind it.

 

Can you expound upon your comment? I'm guessing a local cache maggot (I saw you mention awhile back) is hiding behind environmental propaganda to rationalize stealing caches.... I'm not used to brevity from you.

[+Mary&Dave]

Our image as a community is a huge deciding factor on whether Geocaching is a positive or negative thing ecologically. I think we'd all like to keep it positive. We can all help by:

 

- Organizing and attending CITO events, being active as a community in volunteer maintenance projects for local parks, or simply picking up some trash on the way to a cache.

- Keeping caches away from fragile ecosystems. You might place a cache in what looks like a perfect location, but you might come back to it to find a geotrail destroying vegetation. It's the cache hider's responsibility to choose a better location and help prevent unnecessary damage and erosion.

- Maintain caches. There's a huge difference between a clean, well hidden ammo can and a pile of soggy, moldy geotrash in a broken container. One's caching. The other's littering. Help your community by reporting caches in need of maintenance and if possible, offering to adopt or at least clean them up.

- Work with local park organizations to promote geocaching and create a policy for cache placement. Awareness is huge. Follow regulations (both those on GC.com and those imposed by the local land management agency).

 

There's a lot we can do to fight the "Geocaching is just littering the woods with tupperware" mentality. Please, for the sake of the community, do your part.

[+New England n00b]

The day some fool makes a violent stand against geocaching is the day I start going for the high number runs just to piss them off.

[magellan315]

What scares me about ELF and some of its off-shoots is their change in tactics. They are going from destruction of property to harrasing and intimidating all levels of employees. Including posting their home addresses, childrens names, ect and espousing vilonece against them. In the late 80's some of the pro-life groups started similar tactics and some individuals took it upon themselves to shoot and kill a number of doctors and nurses. I see the same thing happening again and that really scares me.

Edited June 19, 2006 by magellan315

[Jeremy]

Personally I'm more worried about car prowlers when my Hummer H2 is at the trailhead, parked on a spotted owl.

[+New England n00b]

What scares me about ELF and some of its off-shoots is their change in tactics. They are going from destruction of property to harrasing and intimidating all levels of employees. Including posting their home addresses, childrens names, ect and espousing vilonece against them. In the late 80's some of the pro-life groups started similar tactics and some individuals took it upon themselves to shoot and kill a number of doctors and nurses. I see the same thing happening again and that really scares me.

The difference here is (I think - HOPE) that there are a smaller number of idiots who would go that far when more shock value could be attained elsewhere. Additionally abortion is such a universally heated, focused issue compared with the many threads of environmentalism - yes heated, but dissolved enough to not give people like that a unified purpose. It's a long way from burning stuff to killing people.

 

I will continue to geocache as I always do. Without worry for the unlikely, and in defiance of anyone who tries make 'it' likely.

[+New England n00b]

What scares me about ELF and some of its off-shoots is their change in tactics. They are going from destruction of property to harrasing and intimidating all levels of employees. Including posting their home addresses, childrens names, ect and espousing vilonece against them. In the late 80's some of the pro-life groups started similar tactics and some individuals took it upon themselves to shoot and kill a number of doctors and nurses. I see the same thing happening again and that really scares me.

The difference here is (I think - HOPE) that there are a smaller number of idiots who would go that far when more shock value could be attained elsewhere. Additionally abortion is such a universally heated, focused issue compared with the many threads of environmentalism - yes heated, but dissolved enough to not give people like that a unified purpose. It's a long way from burning stuff to killing people.

 

I will continue to geocache as I always do. Without worry for the unlikely, and in defiance of anyone who tries make 'it' likely.

[+Snoogans]

Personally I'm more worried about car prowlers when my Hummer H2 is at the trailhead, parked on a spotted owl.

 

I agree that any real fear of ecoterrorism toward geocache listing sites would be unfounded at this time, but as a concerned daily user of this site and others, I would at least hope that daily back-ups are being stored OFF-site.

[+paintfiction]

Do I think this would happen? I'd probably buy a Lotto ticket first.

 

ROFLMAO! It seems we have something in common! A mutual disdain for the lottery.

 

oops.... sorry.... back on topic!

 

NUT jobs! Sheesh!

[CoyoteRed]

Do I think this would happen? I'd probably buy a Lotto ticket first.

 

ROFLMAO! It seems we have something in common! A mutual disdain for the lottery.

 

Yep.

 

It's funny it's right after I mention something I'd like to do which takes a lot of money and I start with "When I win the Lotto..." I'm reminded "Don't you have to buy a ticket first?"