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Papa-Bear-NYC

An Old U.s.c.&g.s. "bolt" - We Would Call It A Disk

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I found this yesterday KU3315 "Forest Park".

 

Here's a picture:

 

c6d6ac9b-59d6-4cec-997a-57bef0bffdff.jpg

 

It's set on a granite post which in turn is embedded in a large block of concrete. I think it was monumented in 1907 (see my log) and I belive all the stamping on the disk were added by the 1932 CGS team (see my log).

 

For me this was an interesting find since it's the only ground station from the 1903 triangulation of NYC that may still exist (although I'm still working on 2 other possibilities). It's the only one recently logged on NGS and it was logged last year on GC by LIMA97. Most of the rest are marked destroyed or logged as "lost" in old recoveries.

 

But the disk may also be interesting as an example of an old USC&GS disk (they called it a "bolt", although it's about 3 inches in diameter).

 

Questions:

 

Is this a rarity or are there some number like this still out there?

 

Is this the first USC&GS monument that we would call a disk, or are there still older types?

 

When did the USC&GS switch to the common style we often find which were set from the 1930s to the 1950s?

 

Thanks

Pb

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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Cool recovery! Nice work. You know, maybe after a few more NYC area recoveries, YOU could write a book about NYC survey history! Casey at NGS can co-author.....

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I found this yesterday KU3315 "Forest Park".

 

Here's a picture:

 

c6d6ac9b-59d6-4cec-997a-57bef0bffdff.jpg

 

It's set on a granite post which in turn is embedded in a large block of concrete. I think it was monumented in 1907 (see my log) and I belive all the stamping on the disk were added by the 1932 CGS team (see my log).

 

For me this was an interesting find since it's the only ground station from the 1903 triangulation of NYC that may still exist (although I'm still working on 2 other possibilities). It's the only one recently logged and most of the rest are marked destroyed or logged as "lost" in old recoveries.

 

But the disk may also be interesting as an example of an old USC&GS disk (they called it a "bolt", although it's about 3 inches in diameter).

 

Questions:

 

Is this a rarity or are there some number like this still out there?

 

Is this the first USC&GS monument that we would call a disk, or are there still older types?

 

When did the USC&GS switch to the common style we often find which were set from the 1930s to the 1950s?

 

Thanks

Pb

 

Wow nice find thats really cool I guess it could be called a Bolt. I just recently found a Washer from the Corps of Engineers that I thought was interesting because along the Snake river in Washington i found more disks but this was the only one I found that was a washer while I was up there.

I found one tonight that was a railroad spike in a tree MONUMENTED was unknown but another railroad spike close by was MONUMENTED in 1899 so I am guessing it's old.HS5235

 

0c67c52d-05ff-40bf-a9ba-47b28ee6fad6.jpg

f286af01-14c8-4f3c-a51e-1ffe27bd8f7e.jpg

 

even found a Metal Rod BM across the street from it.fe5f022b-0215-4dfd-a250-26eaabb6020a.jpg

Edited by Mystery Ink

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Very nice recovery. There are some older USGS disks around (NB0885), and there is a suspiciously well-preserved CGS bench mark disk stamped 1894 (RC0860).

 

There are a number of disks stamped with dates prior to 1909, but at least some of them were placed in the 1940's or later and were stamped with the date of the original monument, which may have been some other kind of mark. It's not easy to tell if the disk is original or not. However, the first recovery report for the 1906 DX1260, which states "AT THE PRESENT TIME THE MARK IS COVERED BY A SIGN FASTENED TO THE WALL OF THE BUILDING" implies that the mark could not have been set by the 1960 party.

 

It's possible that the 1903 LY0512 disk is original, as might be the 1903 LF0781.

 

Some other candidates for original disks are some pipe caps that date to 1906, for instance NU0061. Since the 1960 recovery report states that the pipe was "leaning slightly to the south, but still solid", it implies that the 1960 party were not the ones who set the mark.

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I have another question in case anyone knows.

 

The "bolt" shown has 3 sections: the round center section with the punch mark, the ring outside that with the initials "U.S.C.&G.S" and finally the raised outer ring. A careful look at the photo (and on site) would seem to show that the inner two sections are one piece, but the outer raised ring might be a separate piece.

 

Here's a closeup at the full resolution of the camera:

abm.jpg

 

Question:

 

Is this thing one piece or 2 (or 3) pieces put together when it is set?

If it's multiple pieces, how does it hold together for 100 years?

 

If the center circular piece is separate, it would better explain why it would be called a "bolt".

 

Casey or DaveD - do you know about this type of mark?

 

Thanks

Papa Bear

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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It looks to me like the outer ring is the setting--some sort of lead-copper alloy perhaps, to hold the bolt into the wall. It may hasve been part of the bolt when it was hammered into place and would be soft to conform to the hole drilled into the post. Alternately, and less likely to me, is that it was poured in place like plumbers used to do with waste piping.

The larger circle is the original disk, stamped in 1908. The smaller inner circle is stamped 1932, as well as FORESTPARK. I would guess it was set INTO the original disk in 1932, and the small hole in it is the point of measurement.

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According to the description, what you have found was set in 1903. By the 1931 description you can deduce that the center ring was already there at that time (1931). The 1903 description says "THE EXACT POINT IS A SMALL HOLE 1/100 FOOT IN DIAMETER DRILLED IN TOP OF BOLT.". The 1931 description says "STATION IS NOW MARKED BY THE CROSS CUT ATOP A 6- BY 6- BY 24-INCH GRANITE POST SET IN A 3- BY 3- BY 4-FOOT MASS OF CONCRETE." as can be seen faintly in Papa Bear's picture titled View of the monument from the southeast showing the carved "1907". Look above the "U" in the granite and the cut line is still visible. Both the hole and the cross cut were there prior to 1932, so the stamping Forest Park 1932 was probably added in 1932 to what would have been a blank disk with a 1/100' hole (approximately 1/10") in it, in the center of the bolt. The cross cut in the granite that was mentioned in 1931 appears to be centered on the hole in the center 'disk'.

 

It appears that the outer ring may be separate from the inner 'disks' judging by the gap at the top of the inner disk and the lack of the gap at the bottom of the inner disk. The 2 inner disks appear to be a single unit.

 

What does not follow through is the date of monumentation! The description says 1903, but the concrete it is set in has 1907 scratched into it, and the "Bolt" has 1908 stamped on it. I think it is a conspiracy to give the benchmark contest judge more gray hairs! :lol: Maybe the person who did the concrete work had a wild sense of humor and scratched 1907 as a joke on the next person who would use this mark.

 

Congrats on a great find!

 

John

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Maybe the person who did the concrete work had a wild sense of humor and scratched 1907 as a joke on the next person who would use this mark.

 

It's certainly possible the monument was set (concreted) in 1907, but not surveyed until 1908. Generally, before an actual survey begins, the monuments are pre-set.

 

Put yourself in a surveyor's shoes. (Trails had to be blazed, towers built, a clear line of sight established for triangulation, etc.)

 

Perhaps one of our professional surveyors would share their point of view on this.

 

Regards

~ Mitch ~

 

[Edited to remove stupidity]

Edited by Difficult Run

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I agree that very probably

 

1) the two inner sections are one piece

2) the stamping on the inner section was added in 1932

 

It is also reasonable to assume theat the 1907 date was when the site was first set up and not when the surveyors got there.

 

As for the 1903 date in the NGS datasheet - I have found many monuments that specify a monumentation date as of when the survey started, even though the monument was actually esrtablished later, so I assume the "1903" date is one of these. Good example: The Metropolitan Life Tower is in the NGS database as monumented (observed, actually) in 1903, even though the tower was not built until 1907 - 1908, the tail end of the survey. See KU3595. Interestingly, this station is marked as destroyed, which I believe is in error. But I digress ...

 

And the "1908"? I have a feeling it was added in 1932 as well. Look at the the 2 dates on the monument and the one on the reference mark:

 

abp.jpg

 

abo.jpg

 

abn.jpg

 

The "typography" of the stamping is suspiciously similar. Look at the "1" (with its fat stem) and the"9" (with its little curly bottom). Im no expert in the typography of stamping dyes, but I would assume they would change over 25 years. But this is clearly speculation. If true, then the 1932 crew really was a busy-body bunch, stamping everything in sight! Or maybe they put in the "1908" after they stamped the center so as not to lead anyone to think the whole thing was reset in 1932. Its fun to speculate, isn't it!

 

If I ever find another station of this type, it will be interesting to see the similarities and differences.

 

Is anyone aware of another example of this type of marker?

Edited by Papa-Bear-NYC

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