Jump to content

Sticker On Stop Sign


SG-MIN

Recommended Posts

SG-MIN,

 

Can I ask you why you are so fixated on putting a sticker on a stop sign? Aren't there any more interesting spots nearby, that you can place a waypoint? Have you considered a red reflector, with a glued on magnet? I have seen micros glued to red reflectors, that were magentized to road signs. To the untrained eye, they were invisible.

Edited by Kit Fox
Link to comment

 

That makes sense ...not.

 

"...I still do not feel the sticker is appropriate"

 

yet you are still going to publish it???

 

If you are getting conflicting messages from different reviewers, why not ask The Man In Charge for the ultimate ruling?

 

Ed

 

This is an official gray area; one of many here at geocaching.com. I have not finished the review of this cache yet, so reserve judgement.

 

The Man In Charge has much larger issues than this to rule on, it is best handled on a case-by-case basis by the reviewers at the present time. Thank you for your interest.

Link to comment

no fixation with the stop sign - the topic just came up because of the differing opinions between reviewers and I was looking for a concensus (which appears to be largely missing).

 

The reason I even have a stage at a stop sign is because of the nature of the multi. It utilizes directions as well as coordinates, and a stop sign was the easiest reference point.

 

I would tell you more, but that would give away the mystery of the cache. I have already seen 3 local cachers active in this forum, and I want to save them the surprise.

 

In brief - no fixation with a sign, just curious groundspeaks official position - apprantly it still needs to be formulated.

Link to comment

Im not sure if anyone will ever read this entry of myne. Being it is at the bottom of the pile. But anyway, I am a Law Enforcment Person, and must state that yes, it would be considered defacment of public prop. But there is a nice little loop hole, you can request to place a small tag or sticker on the bottom of the post as long as it is oked by the city officials. CITY BOARD, LAW ENFORCMENT, ETC..... Most of the time I have delt with them, they never had a problem AS LONG AS IT DIDN"T STAND OUT AND LOOKED OFFICIAL.... Hope that will help with your question. As long as its just the cords, an "everyday person" would expect somthing like that on posts. So they would not get the inclination that you were alowed to place stickers on signs. Make sure it is on a city Street sign tho and not a State hwy. dep. sign. They are a little more stricked.

Link to comment

Having past LE experience, I am mixed about the opinion of gps_junky. His area must be one with rules far different from those I've had experience with, considering the above-mentioned Arizona Geocachers sign was erected by the State DOT, during the time I worked for the highway patrol. Nobody had a problem with it from the officers I worked with to the DOT guys at the NOC I worked with on pretty much an hourly basis when I was at work. If a temporary adhesive is considered defacement, that's ultimately ridiculous IMO.

 

Of course, I can see the inverse of the situation on nearly every light pole in town, which are oozing with the reside of packing/masking tape that was used to pimp garage sale #994372, and of course the tape and subsequent residue were not removed. They all look like crap now. The caveat is what is used and how large it is. Ideally, a simple label maker spitting out a 1/4" x 2-3" label and affixing it to something is nothing. It looks official and is absolutely miniscule in the grand scheme.

 

The easiest fix would be to simply call TPTB (in this case, probably the streets dept) and ask to speak to a supervisor about it. Let him/her know what you're looking to do, and see if they would endorse a small non-descript sticker on the back corner of the stop sign. Problem solved.

Link to comment

...

 

... The caveat is what is used and how large it is. Ideally, a simple label maker spitting out a 1/4" x 2-3" label and affixing it to something is nothing. It looks official and is absolutely miniscule in the grand scheme.

 

...

 

Which brings us back to our OP ... is that defacement of public property or not?

 

Again: Our opinions of how minor the infraction may be does not change that the infraction may occur. We may all agree that travelling 6 miles over the posted speed limit is not really speeding however the law and the courts see otherwise.

 

Another issue here: the OP has stated that the sticker would not qualify as graffiti as it can be easily removed. So... um... when someone easily removes it the whole puzzle is done. That would be rather frustrating for someone looking for that information.

 

Unfortunately, in some areas the reviewing process has painted itself into a corner by gradually relaxing the gc.com standards. Each time they give a little on a rules issue they are assaulted with submissions that stretch things a bit further. The new submissions number one response to attempts to disallow cache is often "Hey! You let XXX do someting just like it on his GCXXXX cache. Why can't I?" This has created some areas with a higher than normal number of "guerilla caches," caches placed not in accordance with stated policy. To make the work of the reviewers even tougher the cache placer all too often hops onto the forums and complains. Rather like the pro-sports players who have a habit of questioning every call.

 

I have the utmost respect for the work the reviewers do for our game. However I find it sad to discover that any would agree to intentionally placing a sticker on a stop sign.

Link to comment

 

Another issue here: the OP has stated that the sticker would not qualify as graffiti as it can be easily removed. So... um... when someone easily removes it the whole puzzle is done. That would be rather frustrating for someone looking for that information.

 

 

To keep the facts straight, I never said it was or was not defacement/grafitti. I came to this forum to get feedback of the community (and I thank you for your well stated opinion).

 

To speak to the removeablity issue, your arguement does not stand in light of traditional caches. I have OFTEN been frustrated by a cache that was easily removed (muggled) by someone. That does not mean we should not place caches.

 

We appear to have found ourself in a situtation where opinions have been stated, but neither side can back up a point with absolute assurance of correctness. The Cache Approver has also stated how the cache will be handled.

 

In my mind, unless Groundspeak officially addresses this issue, we are at stalemate. In the meantime, I am in the process of corisponding with the Kentucky Highway Department to get their opinion on the matter. In the end even if Groundspeak says stickers are okay, if KY DOT says no, we are again at a moot point.

 

All that is to say I appreciate your input and opinions, and will keep you posted if anything new develops as to the legality of placing stickers on stop signs.

Link to comment

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"?

 

Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet.

 

So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two.

 

You've obviously either:

1) never tried to remove a bumper sticker

or

2) had no clue what you were doing.

 

Most of the time, once a corner is started, they'll easily peel completely off in one piece. Oh, and "permanent marker" isn't very permanent on many surfaces, either.

 

That said, I still don't know how I feel on the issue.

Link to comment

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"?

 

Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet.

 

So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two.

 

On metal it is as easy to remove as a magnet - I had to test it in order to make sure it would be weatherproof. With my (a guy's) fingernails, it is easily removed. Trust me on this one.

Would this be an hour or three after it was applied, or say 3-6 months or even a year or two after the adhesive has been exposed to the changes in temperature and the elements? <_<

The adhesive properties are quite likely to change over time.

Link to comment

Since you claim you're not fixated on placing this bumper sticker material on a stop sign (just want to posit the question) and you've also been given other options that don't include defacing public property by *anyone's* definition (like coords on a rock at the base of the sign)...then you're at a bit of a confusing crossroads in your discussion.

 

The logical answer would be to go write your coordinates on a rock and place it at the base of the sign. You get people to your stop sign while avoiding any possible confusion over stickers, magnets, defacing, vandalism, permission AND your cache will be approved without question.

 

Instead you start contacting KY DoT and asking reviewers to find consensus and charging onward on your path to finding people willing to agree that you're doing nothing of harm so let's just do it.

 

Why (rhetorical)? You said you weren't fixated. If this were really about asking the question to see public opinion, then you wouldn't keep trying to defend your action when people tell you that it would probably be wrong (for a number of reasons) to sticker your coordinates to the sign.

Edited by ju66l3r
Link to comment

the sticker is made from bumper sticker material

You're calling bumper sticker material "removable"?

 

Calling that removable is like calling paint or permanent marker "removable". Sure, you could technically remove it... scraping for a while with a blade or using chemicals... but it's not anywhere near as temporary or truly removable as a magnet.

 

So no, if it were me, I definitely wouldn't equate the two.

 

On metal it is as easy to remove as a magnet - I had to test it in order to make sure it would be weatherproof. With my (a guy's) fingernails, it is easily removed. Trust me on this one.

 

A sticker that is removeable today, most likely wont be after a season or two. After the sun has beated on it and it has gotten wet so many times, it will most likeyly leave glue behind.

 

A magnet is what you should be using, and there is a definately a difference from a magnet to a sticker, one is just sitting there, a sticker is now PART of the sign.

 

Plus with magnetic stips, you can put the co-ords on the INSIDE (side facing what you want it to stick to) and paint the rear side to camo into whatever you are sticking it on.

 

Then you have a completely removeable item, and something that is even LESS visable to anyone, and most likely will have an longer lifespan. Or even stick the sticker to the magnet.

 

If a cop caught you painting a wall with waterpaints, I dont think they would make a distiction that it could wash off in the next rain, and trying to tell them I'm not really defacing the surface, where-as if you were putting that same image up as a poster on that wall (As long as your not using GLUE) you would have alot less trouble getting out of that.

Edited by zahadoom
Link to comment
If a cop caught you painting a wall with waterpaints, and dont think they would make a distiction that it could wash off in the next rain, and trying to tell them I'm not really defacing the surface, where-as if you were putting a poster on that wall (As long as your not using GLUE) you would have alot less trouble getting out of that.
Interesting example. I suppose that I should stop the little one from drawing on the sidewalk with chalk, lest she get herself tossed in the hoosegow. :)
Link to comment

I can speak from experience for the AZ Geocachers sign. The sun weathers the print away long before the sticker falls off. The sign has other stickers placed on it by ADOT (AZ Dept of Trans).

 

Another option is to see if there are already serial numbers on the back of the stop sign. If there are, see if any of them are ones you can use. For instance..

 

1234567890

 

you put on the webpage that they are looking for:

 

12A45BC89D or what ever numbers you need. The would have to identify the numbers and place them into the coordinates... Puzzle solved, no extra stickers.

 

Most of the street signs I've seen have plenty of alpha-numeric numbers and bar-codes on the back to work with.

Link to comment

Since you claim you're not fixated on placing this bumper sticker material on a stop sign (just want to posit the question) and you've also been given other options that don't include defacing public property by *anyone's* definition (like coords on a rock at the base of the sign)...then you're at a bit of a confusing crossroads in your discussion.

 

The logical answer would be to go write your coordinates on a rock and place it at the base of the sign. You get people to your stop sign while avoiding any possible confusion over stickers, magnets, defacing, vandalism, permission AND your cache will be approved without question.

 

Instead you start contacting KY DoT and asking reviewers to find consensus and charging onward on your path to finding people willing to agree that you're doing nothing of harm so let's just do it.

 

Why (rhetorical)? You said you weren't fixated. If this were really about asking the question to see public opinion, then you wouldn't keep trying to defend your action when people tell you that it would probably be wrong (for a number of reasons) to sticker your coordinates to the sign.

 

Keep in mind that this entire conversation is just over 24 hours old. Even if I did decide to utilize an alternative method for posting the coords, with my work schedule I could not have changed it yet.

 

From the time this thread started, until Bluegrass reviewer posted his decision - I didn't have a clear answer on the acceptability of a sticker so I asked the forum. I am not defending my position, I am asking why. Rather than using the same-ole same-ole tecnique, I wanted to try something unique. If you lookat my posts, I only ask "how is this differant than..." Those are honest questions. I have only been caching 1.5 months and sincerely appreciate the input from veteran users.

 

As for asking the DOT, I am afraid this brings us to the explicit versus adequate persmission debate, which none of us want to get into. Since there was a question on the matter, I wanted to get the opinion of those that ultimately mattered (the DOT may be against magnents, micros, and rocks with coords next to their sign). In the end, it doesn't matter what the forums thinks, or even what the reviewers think. If the DOT is against it, it all must come down.

 

As to the permanance of the sticker and adhesive properties changing - well, that is why I asked the question.

 

Hopefully you all will take the time to enjoy the cache once it is published.

Link to comment
If a cop caught you painting a wall with waterpaints, and dont think they would make a distiction that it could wash off in the next rain, and trying to tell them I'm not really defacing the surface, where-as if you were putting a poster on that wall (As long as your not using GLUE) you would have alot less trouble getting out of that.
Interesting example. I suppose that I should stop the little one from drawing on the sidewalk with chalk, lest she get herself tossed in the hoosegow. :)

 

Interesting you should say that, Ive thought about that a few times, As Ive seen some kids chalk drawing that lasted weeks due to no rain, and it did look really horrible as they arent very good artists yet.

 

Also I've seen some professional chalk drawning being down downtown on the sidewalk, and those guys had permits to do it. So I would imagine that the kids are actually defacing sidewalks.

On that same subject though, chalk will wash off alot faster than waterpaints, and is no compairison to how long a sticker would last. A magnet is just an object left behind, sitting, albit sometimes verticly, but it is just sitting there, as it isn't actually attached to the surface.

Link to comment

It seems the same arguements have been made both ways - lets ask an equally important, and much mroe practical question:

 

Who has the final call on the matter? (regardless of whether it is a sticker, micro, or rock)

 

considering:

One Reviewer recommend I do it

The actual cache reviewer disagreed, but left it to my descrtion

The property managers have been contacted

There is no official stance from geocaching.com

Link to comment
It seems the same arguements have been made both ways - lets ask an equally important, and much mroe practical question:

 

Who has the final call on the matter? (regardless of whether it is a sticker, micro, or rock)

 

considering:

One Reviewer recommend I do it

The actual cache reviewer disagreed, but left it to my descrtion

The property managers have been contacted

There is no official stance from geocaching.com

Your reviewer is going to list the cache, apparently, so you have the final say. (Note that I left out the entire permission issue, also.)

Link to comment

My $.02 for you SG-MIN:

 

If you had a really nice car (which you might) would you mind if I put a "removable" sticker in the middle of the hood. Or would you worry about it defacing your car? I realize a Stop sign is not a expensive car. However, I feel that if you would not put the same object on something you have that is similar then do not put it something that someone else has to pay to repair, fix, clean, replace. Again that is just my opinion and probably a reason why I have not hidden any caches yet.

Link to comment
If you had a really nice car (which you might) would you mind if I put a "removable" sticker in the middle of the hood. Or would you worry about it defacing your car? I realize a Stop sign is not a expensive car. However, I feel that if you would not put the same object on something you have that is similar then do not put it something that someone else has to pay to repair, fix, clean, replace. Again that is just my opinion and probably a reason why I have not hidden any caches yet.
Two thoughts:

 

First, how is a car analogous to the back of a stop sign?

 

Second, how would feel if someone left a tupperware container on your car's hood covered with a pile of sticks?

Link to comment

Stickers in unwanted places are called "slap tags" and are very much illegal in California. Does it make a difference if it has a taggers name or a set of coordinates? Nope.

 

Is Paint always used to Write Graffiti?

Laws have been enacted in order to prevent youth under the age of 18 years from purchasing spray paint. Spray paint is the traditional tool of graffiti artist. Today's youth have been known to use paint, shoe polish rolls, etching tools, rocks, pens almost any instrument that can leave a distinctive mark on a surface. "Slap Tag" is another method of graffiti. This form entails writing out the Tag Crew's name or the individual's tag name on a sticker. The sticker is then slapped onto poles, walls, newspaper bins or any surface. The tagger will often times carry on their person sheets of stickers ready for slapping onto any surface.

 

Cleaning stickers takes time. Time equals money, lost money (labor) equals crime.

 

Ed

Edited by Ed & Julie
Link to comment

So very many opinions, so very few facts.

 

There are governmental laws, and there are our rules and our reviewer’s decisions.

 

It seems to me that we should both

(a) obey the law and

(B) obey our rules and our reviewer’s decisions.

Both.

 

It really does not at all matter that we might personally think the sign/sticker/magnet/etc. is not defacing; if the law says that it is; then it is. Even silly laws are still laws.

 

One very thoughtful idea was given by “Jake – Team A.I.,” who said

Quote:

Another option is to see if there are already serial numbers on the back of the stop sign. If there are, see if any of them are ones you can use. For instance..

 

1234567890

 

you put on the webpage that they are looking for:

 

12A45BC89D or what ever numbers you need. The would have to identify the numbers and place them into the coordinates... Puzzle solved, no extra stickers.

 

Most of the street signs I've seen have plenty of alpha-numeric numbers and bar-codes on the back to work with.

End quote

 

Now THAT really makes sense. Can something like that be done?

 

A company I worked for 35 years ago provided equipment to highway departments. Even back then, ALL signs we provided were aluminum. I would be surprised if any highway signs out there are steel. Magnets almost assuredly will not work . . . even if they are legal.

Link to comment

As promised, I told you all I would keep you posted on the outcome of this question.

 

After being bounced around via email to several individuals in my local distict of the Kentucky Transportation Cabinet, I finally talked to <NAME WITHHELD> who is the Permits Branch Engineer. He informed me that because of the dangers of parking in a rightaway/median, he could not issue a permit for any geocaching activity.

 

After having a conversation with him concerning adequate / implied / explicit permission, he informed me that since there was no prohibition on geocaching, we would not need a permit, but that he did not want to know about cache locations because of liability reasons. Basically he was able to grant blanket implied permission for caches on DOT property (guardrails, signs, etc.) because of geocaching was not prohibited.

 

As for the sticker question, I did ask him specifically how the DOT viewed stickers on the back of signs. His responce was that stickers, or marking of any kind were prohibited by DOT.

 

Many thanks to all of you for your opinions and insights. In the end, it turns out it isn't up to geocaching.com, but the real TPTB.

 

Kuddos to Bluegrass Reviewer for working through this whole process. My cache should be published in the next day or so with a revised stage.

 

On a side note, one of the PR people I talked to at DOT was very intersted in geocaching, and our conversation prompted her to give it a shot!!!

Link to comment

Wow. I am so impressed that you would go to such lengths to cross your "t's" and dot your "i's"

 

You are an inspiration to the community.

 

Congratulations also on running a thread where an actual issue was debated in a civilized manner, and came to a happy conclusion.

 

I need to do some of your caches if I'm ever in the neighborhood!

Link to comment
How'd you get it to stick to the back of the aluminum sign?

 

I guess you will just have to complete the cache.... :)

 

I stole a magnet off my fridge, peeled the original label off it, and attached the same bumper sticker material to the magnet. I then wrote with a sharpie (already tested for permanance). I then put the magnet on the steel post behind the sign. That way it was less visable, more protected, and cachers can remove it to write down the numbers, and thus look less conspicuous.

Link to comment
How'd you get it to stick to the back of the aluminum sign?

 

I guess you will just have to complete the cache.... :)

 

I stole a magnet off my fridge, peeled the original label off it, and attached the same bumper sticker material to the magnet. I then wrote with a sharpie (already tested for permanance). I then put the magnet on the steel post behind the sign. That way it was less visable, more protected, and cachers can remove it to write down the numbers, and thus look less conspicuous.

 

Now that is a good idea.

Link to comment

We can just lay this one to rest. So long as you live in the area where the sign is placed YOU own it. Right? I mean we pay taxes for this stuff? So we can spraypaint it, shoot it, or take it home if we want! it's ours afterall. Ok all done with the kidding. Personally I would contact the local highway dept to see what their take is on it and possibly ask for approval, take a sample of your sticker let them know how "harmless" it is. It isn't vandalizm if they say you can do it. Anywho just my take on it. :)

 

EDIT: Darnit that's what I get for reading 3/4 of the posts then giving up. Congrats on a peacfull resolution :rolleyes:

Edited by PMaholm
Link to comment

You could always play it off that the sticker was not placed there for the cache. You placed it there and now use it for finding the next stage of the cache. LOL, I mean using a sticker that is already on the back of the sign would be no problem. But yea, I'm not sure about that one.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...