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The Cheeseheads

Event Cache Logging

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I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

To create one, you'd just fill out a small form:

Name of Cache - Obvious

 

Description - Obvious as well

 

Type of Cache - This could be a few different things:

  • Person - The "Social Cache" that this thread is about
  • Event Cache - Temp caches that are placed for events
  • Goal - People that acheive a specific goal, such as "Finders of The Cheeseheads' Fiendish Cache Series"

Code - Optional. This could be an optional code that would be generated to verify that the task required to log the cache was completed. They could be printed and placed in the Temp Caches or emailed to goal finishers. You would have the ability to change the code if necessary, and there might even be a function to have the code expire on a certain date.

 

There would not be a place for putting in coordinates, difficulty, etc. If these were event caches, it would be up to the owner to come up with a way to create their own description pages for their event.

 

Once those are created, on a regular cache page there might also be a way to associate it with the Event Caches.

 

These Social Cache "finds" would not be counted in with your total finds, but would still be included on your finds page similar to how benchmarks are included there now.

 

Finders would still have the ability to add pictures, place them on watchlists, etc. Hiders would still retain the ability to be able to delete and encrypt logs.

 

I think for the most part, people enjoy doing Event Caches, and many who do would just like a place to keep track that they founf them, whether they were included in their find total or not. I think this might be a good start to a solution.

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I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

I don't either. Neither should be logged. I addended the event and that is the only log I need. If I'm so set on keeping track of the temp caches I found and people I met at the event I can list them in my attended log.

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I think this could be expanded a little...

 

I think you're on to something here.

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I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

I don't either. Neither should be logged. I addended the event and that is the only log I need.

I realize that and that's fine. Lately, I just attend events for the social aspect as well. However, there seems to be enough interest from other people that a feature like this might be welcomed. Just like anything else, nobody can force you to log it if it's there, but just because you don't want it doesn't mean that other people don't as well.

If I'm so set on keeping track of the temp caches I found and people I met at the event I can list them in my attended log.

That's why I suggested that, like the benchmarks on the stats page, these "finds" would be shown, but not included in the "total finds" calculation. So even if you attend the "GeoUniverse 2006 Mega Event" and find the 80 temp caches that were there, your find cound would only go up by the one - the "attended" log for the event.

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I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

To create one, you'd just fill out a small form:

Name of Cache - Obvious

 

Description - Obvious as well

 

Type of Cache - This could be a few different things:

  • Person - The "Social Cache" that this thread is about
  • Event Cache - Temp caches that are placed for events
  • Goal - People that acheive a specific goal, such as "Finders of The Cheeseheads' Fiendish Cache Series"

Code - Optional. This could be an optional code that would be generated to verify that the task required to log the cache was completed. They could be printed and placed in the Temp Caches or emailed to goal finishers. You would have the ability to change the code if necessary, and there might even be a function to have the code expire on a certain date.

 

There would not be a place for putting in coordinates, difficulty, etc. If these were event caches, it would be up to the owner to come up with a way to create their own description pages for their event.

 

Once those are created, on a regular cache page there might also be a way to associate it with the Event Caches.

 

These Social Cache "finds" would not be counted in with your total finds, but would still be included on your finds page similar to how benchmarks are included there now.

 

Finders would still have the ability to add pictures, place them on watchlists, etc. Hiders would still retain the ability to be able to delete and encrypt logs.

 

I think for the most part, people enjoy doing Event Caches, and many who do would just like a place to keep track that they founf them, whether they were included in their find total or not. I think this might be a good start to a solution.

 

I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

I don't either. Neither should be logged. I addended the event and that is the only log I need.

I realize that and that's fine. Lately, I just attend events for the social aspect as well. However, there seems to be enough interest from other people that a feature like this might be welcomed. Just like anything else, nobody can force you to log it if it's there, but just because you don't want it doesn't mean that other people don't as well.

If I'm so set on keeping track of the temp caches I found and people I met at the event I can list them in my attended log.

That's why I suggested that, like the benchmarks on the stats page, these "finds" would be shown, but not included in the "total finds" calculation. So even if you attend the "GeoUniverse 2006 Mega Event" and find the 80 temp caches that were there, your find cound would only go up by the one - the "attended" log for the event.

 

I like that idea -- allows people to log events temps, people, or participation in a goal or contest. It tracks their stats but does not count to over all finds.

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...and this would be the second step in the right direction.

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I suggested something along the same lines (but more automated) over in the One Log Per Cache thread in response to the suggestion that events should not be able to have multiple "attended" logs. The post summarized the ideas that a few people had tossed out in that thread and others I have read in the past:

 

1) allow event caches, perhaps as a subcategory under the event

the event is EV101, the event caches are additional waypoints EV101a, EV101b, etc

 

2) limit the number to something mutally agreeable as reasonable

(Limiting the number would quality event caches, and allow plenty of time for other activities

Perhaps Mega events could have more event cache than regular events)

 

3) have the find tally separately from other types.

we already have separate counts for virtuals, locationless, multis etc,

 

the new way would look something like:

 

Traditional Caches* xxx

Multi-caches* xx

Virtual Caches* xx

Events* xx

Event Caches* xx

Unknown (Mystery) Caches* xx

Locationless (Reverse) Caches* xx

Earthcaches* xx

NGS Benchmarks xx

*Total Caches Found xxx

 

As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total. I think many other would also feel that way if the event caches were legal and of good quality.

 

Anyone who still didn't feel event caches are worthwhile just wouldn't choose to log event caches.

 

I don't see any real reason to make them part of this whole "code"/social log thing, but if that is what it would take to get event caches "legalized" I think some people might be interested.

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Good points.

1) allow event caches, perhaps as a subcategory under the event

the event is EV101, the event caches are additional waypoints EV101a, EV101b, etc

They would definitely need their own two letter prefix, but since (per my idea) they wouldn't necessarily have to be associated with an event cache, they would get a uniquely generated ID just like caches.

2) limit the number to something mutally agreeable as reasonable

(Limiting the number would quality event caches, and allow plenty of time for other activities

Perhaps Mega events could have more event cache than regular events)

I don't see a need for a hard limit. I've been to non-mega events where there have been dozens of high-quality caches hidden, and some events with four really sucky temp caches. No matter what number you set it at, someone's always going to be asking for more, so I'd be against limits.

3) have the find tally separately from other types.

we already have separate counts for virtuals, locationless, multis etc,

I agree!

As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

Anyone who still didn't feel event caches are worthwhile just wouldn't choose to log event caches.

 

I don't see any real reason to make them part of this whole "code"/social log thing, but if that is what it would take to get event caches "legalized" I think some people might be interested.

There's a lot of similar ideas that I think can all be rolled up together like this. The "Social Cache" idea was floated by Jeremy, so that's why I included it here.

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As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

 

Are you proposing that Event Caches (not the temp caches, but the events themselves) no longer count towards the total finds? Or have I misunderstood?

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As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

 

Are you proposing that Event Caches (not the temp caches, but the events themselves) no longer count towards the total finds? Or have I misunderstood?

 

Unless the event is hidden inside an ammo box in the woods, then NO! I like the idea of "Attended" log type versus FOUND. Although, it's possible that the event was really hard to find and required stopping to ask for directions (so would that count as a multi????)

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As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

 

Are you proposing that Event Caches (not the temp caches, but the events themselves) no longer count towards the total finds? Or have I misunderstood?

 

I don't see why event caches should not count but I've never really understood why, especially since getting so picky about what a geocache really is, attending an event should count as a find. I only log an attended if I found at least 1 temp cache at the event and I only log 1 attended regardless of the number of temp caches found at the event. That's why you'll only see 1 event in my profile. It's the only one I've attended where I've found a temp cache.

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

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As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

 

Are you proposing that Event Caches (not the temp caches, but the events themselves) no longer count towards the total finds? Or have I misunderstood?

No, the one "attended" log would count towards your total. The temp caches you find at events would not.

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

Edited by Team Neos

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

 

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

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As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total.

...or maybe not.

 

Are you proposing that Event Caches (not the temp caches, but the events themselves) no longer count towards the total finds? Or have I misunderstood?

 

Unless the event is hidden inside an ammo box in the woods, then NO! I like the idea of "Attended" log type versus FOUND. Although, it's possible that the event was really hard to find and required stopping to ask for directions (so would that count as a multi????)

Are you aware that, currently, each "attended" that is logged at an event counts as a "find" in the total stats?

Under the system that either the Cheeseheads or I suggested, the event itself would still count as a find (I don't like the idea of taking something away that we already have). We have both suggested that the "event caches found" at an event should be tallied up in a separate column from the event.

 

Whether "event caches found" would add to the total finds or not really hasn't been discussed (except by me, when I said that I would "prefer" for it to count, but I really didn't mind one way or the other). You could make the argument that it makes more sense to count the 'event caches found' than the 'events attended' as finds. But as I said, I would not suggest that because I think events are an important aspect of the social part of geocaching!

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

 

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

Well, perhaps what you are saying warrents more attention. I don't understand why you feel the risk would increase it event caches were legitimized. Would it be possible that by asking event owners to take offficial responsibility for caches (by checking off the box that says "Yes, I have read the guidelines") there might be decreased problems and improved cache quality?

And remember, folks would not be getting credit for "caches found" they would be getting credit (maybe) for "event caches found" ---Listed in a completely separate cluster than the regular caches.

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

Well, perhaps what you are saying warrents more attention. I don't understand why you feel the risk would increase it event caches were legitimized. Would it be possible that by asking event owners to take offficial responsibility for caches (by checking off the box that says "Yes, I have read the guidelines") there might be decreased problems and improved cache quality?

And remember, folks would not be getting credit for "caches found" they would be getting credit (maybe) for "event caches found" ---Listed in a completely separate cluster than the regular caches.

I think both the Cheeseheads notion and Team Neos's idea are very good suggestions. It is very difficult to judge from the forums what "the majority" of geocachers think. And, without a well done poll of all individuals with active accounts, we won't know what people overall think on the topic. However, I think we CAN look at peoples logs and see that many geocachers (I'm not saying a majority - just that it's not 1 or 2 people) log multiple attended logs for events. Many areas truly enjoy temporary event caches. This would give a way to organize them. I think by doing this, you could also directly address Renegade Knight's concerns - if I'm reading The Cheeseheads suggestion correctly, these would be cache pages submitted to gc.com.

However, I think it's also important for people to realize that it's possible to have a new category added to the guidelines as well - that of temporary event caches (as suggested above). Then, we could have specific rules for their placement. Obviously, it won't work if the "temporary caches are not allowed" clause is enforced for the category of temporary caches -- duh! But, if the concern is a "potential black eye" for the sport/hobby/game/... (please use your preferred term), then the issues should be whether or not the cache is in a place with permission; whether or not the cache has valid contents (i.e., no weapons, etc); things like that. Really - being temporary or permanent isn't going to upset non-cachers if the location has permission. Heck, park rangers, etc, are more likely to be willing to allow temporary caches than permanent ones (as has been noted in way too many threads for me to search out all the links).

 

These suggestions both would allow a popular practice to continue, but would allow TPTB to make sure that the caches in question conform to the essential guidelines. We've already seen that temp event caches will be used -- even if you make it one log per event, they will still be used. This offers a system for tracking them to ensure that we WON'T get a black eye. And, I agree with Team Neos - it would be great if they counted in the find stat, as many clearly like them to count, but I'm not adament about that. I *do* think that most people would prefer for them to show up somewhere - either like benchmarks or on their own tab with the social logs (assuming that that feature "happens").

 

If these suggestions were adopted, the issue then becomes twofold -

1) do they count toward the find count or not?

-- keep in mind that like virtuals, they'd be listed so that anyone who discounts them could "subtract" them from a total; or that they'd be listed, so anyone who counts them could mentally add them to a total - just like some do with finds + benchmark finds currently.

 

2) what guidelines make sense?

-- obviously, the temporary restriction would have to be waived, just like the logbook restriction is waved for virts and the coords and the logbook rules were waived for locationlesses (how do you make that plural by the way - that looks weird!)

--- others might argue for the 0.10 mi rule to also be waived; I'm ambivalent about this, but I'm sure the argument can be made for both sides

-- other thoughts?

 

and, of course, which idea above makes more sense. I think a lot of that comes down to the decision on social logs though -- if they decide against social logs, then option A looks a lot less likely. If TPTB DO implement social logs, then I see strong merits to both suggestions, and would honestly be perfectly content with either.

 

just my $.02

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

 

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

I agree with Renegade Knight. (Love it when that happens!)

 

If event caches are to be recognized formally, they ought to go through the review process. And that is a *lot* of extra work. As it stands now, only the event is reviewed. The event cache page is listed because it meets the listing guidelines. What the cache owner does in terms of allowing multiple logs is the owner's business, subject to the website's terms of use and listing guidelines.

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I think this could be expanded a little and become the way of incorporating Temporary Caches into the site. I don't see much difference between logging a person you meet at an event and logging a film container that was placed for an event.

 

I don't either. Neither should be logged. I addended the event and that is the only log I need. If I'm so set on keeping track of the temp caches I found and people I met at the event I can list them in my attended log.

 

Agreed. In fact, this part of the event cache guidelines supports that multiple logs on events shouldn't be allowed.

 

an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

f getting together for cache runs doesn't qualify for an event, why are we even discussing different ways to allow multiple logs on events/validating the pocket lint and other temp caches?

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Agreed. In fact, this part of the event cache guidelines supports that multiple logs on events shouldn't be allowed.

 

an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

 

f getting together for cache runs doesn't qualify for an event, why are we even discussing different ways to allow multiple logs on events/validating the pocket lint and other temp caches?

Because finding temporary caches that are placed for an event is not, for most people, the sole purpose of the event.

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Whether "event caches found" would add to the total finds or not really hasn't been discussed (except by me, when I said that I would "prefer" for it to count, but I really didn't mind one way or the other). You could make the argument that it makes more sense to count the 'event caches found' than the 'events attended' as finds. But as I said, I would not suggest that because I think events are an important aspect of the social part of geocaching!

 

Yes, they are an important part of geocaching. If they are going to count as a find, then I agree, it would be better to show how many of the "finds" are event "finds". Another good thing to show would be how many of the finds are "Duplicate" finds.. Hmmmmm.. Then we can do are own math and the number <omited reference to the oldest profession> would be outted.

 

Not sure what that SQL statement would look like though. Hurts my brain thinking about it.

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

 

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

I agree with Renegade Knight. (Love it when that happens!)

 

If event caches are to be recognized formally, they ought to go through the review process. And that is a *lot* of extra work. As it stands now, only the event is reviewed. The event cache page is listed because it meets the listing guidelines. What the cache owner does in terms of allowing multiple logs is the owner's business, subject to the website's terms of use and listing guidelines.

I agree with both of you! Why not just make them real caches?

 

Also what's the point of logging non-approved caches other than to rack up smileys? It is also amazing to me that some people out there have attended 1000 events! We have poker runs at our events and everyone does them for fun. But we have thought about logging a find for each slice of pizza that we eat at an event! :P:):D:D

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I agree with both of you! Why not just make them real caches?

 

Also what's the point of logging non-approved caches other than to rack up smileys? It is also amazing to me that some people out there have attended 1000 events! We have poker runs at our events and everyone does them for fun. But we have thought about logging a find for each slice of pizza that we eat at an event! :):P:D:D

The topic of this thread is not a discussion of the merits of logging temp caches at an event, it's the discussion of a system to incorporate them into GC.com. Please keep this thread on topic and take other discussions to the regular discussion forum where there are already many threads about that.

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Event caches would need to meet listing requirments and so they should be real caches.

 

If an event only cache is placed and creates a problem this site is going to take the heat and geocaching is going to get the black eye.

Ummmm, event caches already are being placed. Have been for years!

 

That's true. My point is that if anyone wants credit for them, they should be listed on their own merit for the reasons mentioned above. Even if not listed they have the potential to cause problems even if it's reduced potential due to the short life span.

I agree with Renegade Knight. (Love it when that happens!)

 

If event caches are to be recognized formally, they ought to go through the review process. And that is a *lot* of extra work. As it stands now, only the event is reviewed. The event cache page is listed because it meets the listing guidelines. What the cache owner does in terms of allowing multiple logs is the owner's business, subject to the website's terms of use and listing guidelines.

I agree with Renegade Knight and Leprechauns. I suspect that the primary reason -- and one which makes intuitive sense to me -- that geocaching.com has so far not allowed registry of temporary event caches is not only the increased workload, but the possibility that, in hindsight, it will be realized that some temp caches were placed in inadvisable settings. So, better to discourage them so as not to cause problems for the geo community at large in the long run.

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I agree with both of you! Why not just make them real caches?

 

Also what's the point of logging non-approved caches other than to rack up smileys? It is also amazing to me that some people out there have attended 1000 events! We have poker runs at our events and everyone does them for fun. But we have thought about logging a find for each slice of pizza that we eat at an event! :):D:D:)

The topic of this thread is not a discussion of the merits of logging temp caches at an event, it's the discussion of a system to incorporate them into GC.com. Please keep this thread on topic and take other discussions to the regular discussion forum where there are already many threads about that.

Sorry if I strayed.... :D

 

Anyhow they won't incorporate logging temp caches since they already have a working system of approving caches that protects all of us as well as the community. How you would feel if a bomb squad showed up at an event you were attending because someone didn't follow the rules? We need experienced reviewers always involved and that's the bottomline! :P

Edited by TrailGators

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... In fact, this part of the event cache guidelines supports that multiple logs on events shouldn't be allowed.
... an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

If getting together for cache runs doesn't qualify for an event, why are we even discussing different ways to allow multiple logs on events/validating the pocket lint and other temp caches?

 

I completely disagree that this part of the guidelines supports your opinion! The guideline is only there to keep organized group cache hunts from becoming loggable events. It says NOTHING about one's ability/permission to log any caches you MIGHT FIND in conjunction with an event (before, after, or DURING). It's a statement of PURPOSE for the cache type called "event". I do not think it quashes the finding of other caches in any way.

 

I doubt you'd find enough people to count using all your fingers and toes who have NOT logged some cache, either on the way to an event or on the way home. I know it is like tearing out my liver to pass a treasure chest on my GPS map without stopping. Why would event day be any different? And why is it so terrible to anticipate that event planners would desire to have cache-finding, in some form, available as a collateral activity at the event?

 

I side with the folks who say there should be a way to incorporate temporary caches into event planning.

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And why is it so terrible to anticipate that event planners would desire to have cache-finding, in some form, available as a collateral activity at the event?

You can! But you should submit them for approval prior to the event! :huh:

 

I side with the folks who say there should be a way to incorporate temporary caches into event planning.

 

Another point none of these people ever considers is that all caches logged on GC.com should be downloadable and available to all cachers. A few months ago we downloaded the latest PQ and drove two hours up to an event in Mecca. As we drove in we stopped and found all the caches in our PQ. We ate lunch and then we went on a 7 mile hike and found the rest of the caches near this amazing area. When we got back most of the people were gone so we said good-bye and thanked the ones holding the event and left. We stopped at a few more caches in our PQ on the way out. Later on when we logged our finds we all noticed that several cachers were saying that they "attended" the event 8 times. They all found some unpublished caches and were logging them in this unorthodox way. We never knew about these "secret" caches. What is really annoying is that there was no reason these caches couldn't have been approved and published so we could have found them. Is that fair? I will also add that I would never say I "attended" any event more than once to get more smileys. You can enter all the fun stuff you did at the event in your one legal "attended" event log! I also think the real reason temp caches are being created is to bypass rules that some people don't like like having caches 528 feet apart, etc....

Edited by TrailGators

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... In fact, this part of the event cache guidelines supports that multiple logs on events shouldn't be allowed.
... an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list.

If getting together for cache runs doesn't qualify for an event, why are we even discussing different ways to allow multiple logs on events/validating the pocket lint and other temp caches?

 

I completely disagree that this part of the guidelines supports your opinion! The guideline is only there to keep organized group cache hunts from becoming loggable events. It says NOTHING about one's ability/permission to log any caches you MIGHT FIND in conjunction with an event (before, after, or DURING). It's a statement of PURPOSE for the cache type called "event". I do not think it quashes the finding of other caches in any way.

 

I doubt you'd find enough people to count using all your fingers and toes who have NOT logged some cache, either on the way to an event or on the way home. I know it is like tearing out my liver to pass a treasure chest on my GPS map without stopping. Why would event day be any different? And why is it so terrible to anticipate that event planners would desire to have cache-finding, in some form, available as a collateral activity at the event?

 

I side with the folks who say there should be a way to incorporate temporary caches into event planning.

 

There already is a way.. Just put the temporary caches out. And when you are done, put them away. Just don't log them on GC.com, because it's not allowed.

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I suggested something along the same lines (but more automated) over in the One Log Per Cache thread in response to the suggestion that events should not be able to have multiple "attended" logs. The post summarized the ideas that a few people had tossed out in that thread and others I have read in the past:

 

1) allow event caches, perhaps as a subcategory under the event

the event is EV101, the event caches are additional waypoints EV101a, EV101b, etc

 

2) limit the number to something mutally agreeable as reasonable

(Limiting the number would quality event caches, and allow plenty of time for other activities

Perhaps Mega events could have more event cache than regular events)

 

3) have the find tally separately from other types.

we already have separate counts for virtuals, locationless, multis etc,

 

the new way would look something like:

 

Traditional Caches* xxx

Multi-caches* xx

Virtual Caches* xx

Events* xx

Event Caches* xx

Unknown (Mystery) Caches* xx

Locationless (Reverse) Caches* xx

Earthcaches* xx

NGS Benchmarks xx

*Total Caches Found xxx

 

As far as the count is concerned, I personally would prefer that event caches counted as finds in the overall total. I think many other would also feel that way if the event caches were legal and of good quality.

 

Anyone who still didn't feel event caches are worthwhile just wouldn't choose to log event caches.

 

I don't see any real reason to make them part of this whole "code"/social log thing, but if that is what it would take to get event caches "legalized" I think some people might be interested.

 

It seams that there are good event caches and bad event caches and so is it with regular caches that are approved through GC.com. I just got back from GW4 a "Maga Cache" and there was 4 event caches that I did, after doing those caches the Event folks requested that no event caches be logged on the event page which is their right, but it leaves me with a dilemma, How do I log the 4 caches that I spent considerable time looking for. The answer is I don't. We already have the means to log event caches by using the I attended button more than once, but this is confusing and to simply add a Found event cache button would be a lot better way to show your effort. As far as making them permanent caches, in our area, the parks where you have events at are starting to get a little overly cache saturated and a temp cache is a way that a group can go out and have FUN finding caches and that is what this is suppose to be about, FUN

Edited by Turtle3863

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And why is it so terrible to anticipate that event planners would desire to have cache-finding, in some form, available as a collateral activity at the event?

You can! But you should submit them for approval prior to the event! :huh:

 

I side with the folks who say there should be a way to incorporate temporary caches into event planning.

 

Another point none of these people ever considers is that all caches logged on GC.com should be downloadable and available to all cachers.

I agree with you! Having these event caches be available to log is exactly what this thread is about!

 

For those of you who aren't sure what we are talking about when we say "event caches"...

 

...Usually, in the communities where people do these event only caches, the coords to the event caches are printed out on paper, or posted on a board for everyone to see. I have even seen folks make up "mock cache pages" to hand out, using a never activated cache page to make it look more realistic. These are 'real' caches--they have a container, they have a log book, they have coordinates, you find them using a GPS, you sign the log book. Some of them--no, MOST of them--in my area are more challenging than a lot of other official gc caches.

 

Sometimes people find them all throughout the day during the event, sometimes there are special times during the day where most folks go after the event caches. I have seen both ways.

 

Everyone at the event is welcome to hunt the event caches--but the only way to LOG the event caches is to log an additional "attended" to the event page for each event cache. What we are asking is that these caches get their own category in the stats page.

 

We would like more discussion on how this could be accomplished in a way that would be mutally satisfying. As beffums suggested, there would need to be some cahnges to the guidelines to cover these caches. What else would need to be considered?

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Suppose there were no find count and no smileys. When you find a cache you can log it online but it counts only as a log. The same as if you logged a DNF or a note. Would we be having debates over whether it is OK to write a separate log for each temporary cache you find at an event or if the only acceptable way is to write one log for the event where you list each temporary cache you found? Look at the people inflating their log counts by logging multiple notes on the event :huh:

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Suppose there were no find count and no smileys. When you find a cache you can log it online but it counts only as a log. The same as if you logged a DNF or a note. Would we be having debates over whether it is OK to write a separate log for each temporary cache you find at an event or if the only acceptable way is to write one log for the event where you list each temporary cache you found? Look at the people inflating their log counts by logging multiple notes on the event :huh:

Ummm, maybe we would.

 

After all, benchmarks "count" in the overall total as a "log" and my suggestion included the possibility of having the "event caches" work the same way---and we are having this discussion about it.

 

Edited to correct one spelling error and to try to correct one grammar error (but it still looks 'wrong' guess I have to live with it --since I don't know how to fix it!).

Edited by Team Neos

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I have even seen folks make up "mock cache pages" to hand out, using a never activated cache page to make it look more realistic. These are 'real' caches--they have a container, they have a log book, they have coordinates, you find them using a GPS, you sign the log book. Some of them--no, MOST of them--in my area are more challenging than a lot of other official gc caches.

 

That's awesome. They sound like a lot of fun to hunt.

 

Everyone at the event is welcome to hunt the event caches--but the only way to LOG the event caches is to log an additional "attended" to the event page for each event cache. What we are asking is that these caches get their own category in the stats page.

 

Just out of curiosity, why? Everyone "at the event" is welcome to hunt for them. Someone who misses the event won't be able to search for them tomorrow, so why not keep the reward for finding them within the scope of the event? Fill the cache with raffle tickets and have all the finders take one for a prize drawing. Offer cool FTF prizes. Scan the log sheet after the event and create a finders hall of fame on the event cache page. There are plenty of ways to offer rewards for finding a cache other than web stats and smilies.

 

I just don't really see the purpose of GC.com listing something that won't be around to hunt the day after the event. It sounds like a lot of extra work for the servers and (even more so) for the volunteers. You can still log the stories of your cache finds along with the event attended log. Better yet, you can share them in person with fellow cachers.

 

If you want to submit a real cache with real smilies and web logs, there's nothing stopping you from creating one at the event location. I think the chances are good that you'll at least find someone at the event who lives closeby and is willing to maintain it. Personally, I've found lots of these at events. They were there the day after the event too. If you're already going to the trouble of creating a 'real' cache with a printout page and all, why not go one step further to have it approved?

 

*Steps back from the flames...*

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Suppose there were no find count and no smileys. When you find a cache you can log it online but it counts only as a log. The same as if you logged a DNF or a note. Would we be having debates over whether it is OK to write a separate log for each temporary cache you find at an event or if the only acceptable way is to write one log for the event where you list each temporary cache you found? Look at the people inflating their log counts by logging multiple notes on the event :blink:

 

I think you've got it.

 

Further improvements to the system could still include a "Found It" at events for temporary caches. A "Return Visit" log-type to indicate a return trip to a cache where we use notes today but updates a "Last Visited" date in place of the "Last Found." (A logical disconnect in today's scheme.)

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Suppose there were no find count and no smileys. When you find a cache you can log it online but it counts only as a log. The same as if you logged a DNF or a note. Would we be having debates over whether it is OK to write a separate log for each temporary cache you find at an event or if the only acceptable way is to write one log for the event where you list each temporary cache you found? Look at the people inflating their log counts by logging multiple notes on the event :wacko:

 

I think you've got it.

 

Further improvements to the system could still include a "Found It" at events for temporary caches. A "Return Visit" log-type to indicate a return trip to a cache where we use notes today but updates a "Last Visited" date in place of the "Last Found." (A logical disconnect in today's scheme.)

I completely agree with a series of new categories and have all along. I don't understand some of the posters here who don't get a few of the key parts of this discussion.

 

1.

"If you want to submit a real cache with real smilies and web logs, there's nothing stopping you from creating one at the event location. I think the chances are good that you'll at least find someone at the event who lives closeby and is willing to maintain it. Personally, I've found lots of these at events. They were there the day after the event too. If you're already going to the trouble of creating a 'real' cache with a printout page and all, why not go one step further to have it approved?" Yes there is, many times these events are in state parks, you cannot leave temp caches in state parks. You have your event, many of the event attendees go back at the end of the day and clean them all up. I also agree that many of the local parks, etc... are already saturated with caches that many of the locals have already done. These event caches are something fun and new to try and find.

2.

"... an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches. Such group hunts are best organized using the forums or an email distribution list." True according to the guidelines now, but we are requesting a change. Why can't an event have these finds? We cache, we have fun doing that, this is part of it - why can't we meet for a social gathering AND hunt caches? What EXACTLY is wrong with that? :blink:

 

3. Fears voiced by some that these will not be quality caches and need to have approval first. At the events I have attended, all were well thought out and placed within the parks boundries and rules. In a way, it is kind of a challenge to the cache placer to impress his friends and make good hides - to do something nobody has seen before. We saw so many creative hides at the recent outing in Door County. I think the event planners and cache hiders are very concientious about this and proud of how the hides are done.

 

4. I hope all of the people who are debating this issue have been to at least one event and had an opportunity to experience this. If you are worried that you live in CA and can't come to find temp caches in WI, hey hold your own event! :anicute:

 

To further break down the stats would be a great improvement. For everyone looking at other people's stats - the debate would then be off. You can see how many of each I got (if you really want to spend time counting my finds) :anicute: And all the numbers are kept separate, even though they have smilies, you can still get out your calculator and figure it out if that is what you really have time to do...

Edited by lonesumdove

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And why is it so terrible to anticipate that event planners would desire to have cache-finding, in some form, available as a collateral activity at the event?

You can! But you should submit them for approval prior to the event! :blink:

 

I side with the folks who say there should be a way to incorporate temporary caches into event planning.

 

Another point none of these people ever considers is that all caches logged on GC.com should be downloadable and available to all cachers. A few months ago we downloaded the latest PQ and drove two hours up to an event in Mecca. As we drove in we stopped and found all the caches in our PQ. We ate lunch and then we went on a 7 mile hike and found the rest of the caches near this amazing area. When we got back most of the people were gone so we said good-bye and thanked the ones holding the event and left. We stopped at a few more caches in our PQ on the way out. Later on when we logged our finds we all noticed that several cachers were saying that they "attended" the event 8 times. They all found some unpublished caches and were logging them in this unorthodox way. We never knew about these "secret" caches. What is really annoying is that there was no reason these caches couldn't have been approved and published so we could have found them. Is that fair? I will also add that I would never say I "attended" any event more than once to get more smileys. You can enter all the fun stuff you did at the event in your one legal "attended" event log! I also think the real reason temp caches are being created is to bypass rules that some people don't like like having caches 528 feet apart, etc....

 

That may be true in some rare cases but most of the events I have attended the temp. event caches followed the guidelines to the letter ... They were for the event only , however they probably could have been made into permenant caches except for the property owner listing requirements that may limit how many caches are place in one area. The DNR approved of these caches on a temporary basis only , that coupled with the placers ability to maintain so many caches .... Lots of factors go into this people.

 

The people that hunted these temp caches took long senic hikes , hunted the caches and signed the logs. They earned the smilies that should have come with them or at least the right to have a place to log their adventure .

 

Star

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I have even seen folks make up "mock cache pages" to hand out, using a never activated cache page to make it look more realistic. These are 'real' caches--they have a container, they have a log book, they have coordinates, you find them using a GPS, you sign the log book. Some of them--no, MOST of them--in my area are more challenging than a lot of other official gc caches.

That's awesome. They sound like a lot of fun to hunt.

Everyone at the event is welcome to hunt the event caches--but the only way to LOG the event caches is to log an additional "attended" to the event page for each event cache. What we are asking is that these caches get their own category in the stats page.

Just out of curiosity, why? Everyone "at the event" is welcome to hunt for them. Someone who misses the event won't be able to search for them tomorrow, so why not keep the reward for finding them within the scope of the event?

 

I just don't really see the purpose of GC.com listing something that won't be around to hunt the day after the event. It sounds like a lot of extra work for the servers and (even more so) for the volunteers.

Please note: I removed some text from the response above to draw attention to the parts I am going to respond to below. I hope it didn't alter the context too badly!

 

There isn't any hidden agenda behind having the cache available only for the span of the event--but we are talking about temporary caches put out to enjoy during an event. Geocachers could even log the event caches without attending the event. The cords would be available to all. If you had to work during the event, you could hunt it before or after work. That would be a good thing to put on the list of changes to the guidelines for event only caches (Event caches must list the times they will be put out and when they will be retrieved).

 

True, they wouldn't be available after some period of time--but that is true of any cache--every cache has an expiration date. I have had caches on my list of ones to do for months, only to have them be archived just before I could manage to get to them. I can't make all the events in my area--but luckily for me, I live in an area where there are many events, so I do get to go to some of them!

 

You make a good point saying they should be downloadable and viewable to everybody. If we had them as part of the event, they would be just what you request for the time they are available. We need discussion on how early the listing should be put on the cache page so that people could get the coords in their ordinary PQs.

 

We still contend that there would not be a need to have these caches formally reviewed.

I have read the statements made in this thread claiming that event caches would need to be reviewed, but I have not yet seen any convincing evidence that this is true. I feel this is a hold-over effect from regular caches --"But, but all geocaches are reviewed--that is the way it has always been done!" Remember, we aren't talking about geocaches here, we are talking about event geocaches--by very definition, they are entirely a different beast!

 

The main objection so far has been that they will cause some problem. This is an incredibly weak objection. There are already event caches being placed. They are already sanctioned activities at gc--in fact, they are mentioned in the guidelines for events. I fail to see how making the process more formal would do anything but improve these event caches --and thereby decrease the likelihood that they will cause any concerns.

In the system we have now event caches are already being put out without any review. The only change we are asking is the ability to officially log the caches individually.

 

You mention also that it may increase server load, but these caches are already being logged on the server--as notes, as parts of event logs, as multiple attendeds, etc. The overall impact would be negligible. If anything, it may decrease server load as it creates a consolidated place to log the caches. It would prevent unscrupulous logging to other caches to get the smiley in our regular find category.

 

Mostly, those of us who enjoy doing event caches want to have a place to legitimately record them. We just want our personal history to clearly show that we hunted each one of those event caches.

 

Remember: More goes on at events than just these caches. This is just a small change to the way these things are recorded. Who knows, it may even encourage more people to hold events. I personally think there should be a limit to the number of event caches at an event. Other disagree with me. We need discussion on how that should be handled.

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Please note: I removed some text from the response above to draw attention to the parts I am going to respond to below. I hope it didn't alter the context too badly!

 

There isn't any hidden agenda behind having the cache available only for the span of the event--but we are talking about temporary caches put out to enjoy during an event. Geocachers could even log the event caches without attending the event. The cords would be available to all. If you had to work during the event, you could hunt it before or after work. That would be a good thing to put on the list of changes to the guidelines for event only caches (Event caches must list the times they will be put out and when they will be retrieved).

One of Jeremy's suggestions for Social Caches was to have a "secret code" of some sort. Event caches could have this, then you wouldn't be able to log them unless you found them and got the code.

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Thanks for some of the comments about state park regulations and the like. I had not considered that. Please understand that I am NOT in any way opposed to having temporary caches at an event. I think that's a great way to have fun games to play with friends. I AM opposed to having them listed online.

 

The way I see it -- someone generally prints out a stack of cache listing pages for the temporary caches and hands them out at the event. Right? If that's the case, I fail to understand the purpose of GC.com (a cache listing service) listing these caches online.

 

Nobody going to these events would find the listings online. They'd be (presumably) published the morning of the event, after everyone was away from their computers.

 

Nobody NOT going to the events would find the listings online, as the caches would have expired by the time they were able to get there.

 

You still have a way to post your stories and pictures of the hunt for these caches, through the "I attended" post on the event. The ONLY remaining reason I see to list these separately is to increase smiley stats.

 

There's also too much potential for abuse. What if I were to create an "event" to scatter 100 film cans throughout a park. They're not reviewed caches, so there's nobody to tell me what not to do with them. Come to my event, and get 100 finds (for no reason OTHER than to get 100 finds). They'll be gone tomorrow. Fun? Maybe - probably not how I'd choose to spend a Saturday. Should they be listed on GC.com or qualify for smilies? No. Even if they aren't added to your total find count, if they're listed on your stat page, people will go for numbers. Some people log travel bugs or coins for no other reason than to boost that number. There's no reason that temporary event caches wouldn't be the same.

 

Perhaps a better way to do it would be to add a new type of log to an event cache. The icon could be an ammo can or something similar. Logging it wouldn't augment your stats in any way, but it would be a place to "log a find" on a temporary event cache rather than just posting a note.

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Mary & Dave:

 

I completely agree with your last paragraph.

 

However, I have seen some teams find 100 caches and have a blast! They literally RAN to try to get them all, in the pouring rain, and had a great time, it was a real achievement for their family. I know it may not be everybody's cup of tea, but ya know what, some people DO like to do that. Right now, looking for a cache in a mosquito infested swamp is not getting me out there... different strokes for different folks! Even if people go for numbers - so what? If they are broken down on the stat page specifically by listing them as temp. event caches, everybody would know and the squabbling over numbers could finally stop. Listing them online would be a total waste of time and bandwith since these caches need to be removed before the event is over so that is a nonissue. Rather, the event page could list - "Event will have 20 event caches to find" and no one could log them more than once a piece. The events I have been at, they have all been numbered and/or named so you log them that way and it can only be once.

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I would like to say one point of view. My son is physically handicapped. We went to a Spring picnic here in Indiana. The person running the event put out 3 Kid's caches on a trail that could be caches but he lives too far away to maintain them. We found these 3 and signed the log just like any other cache. It was a lot of fun. It was also all on one path so we could get them without having to load up our van and go to the next cache. I'm with everyone that says Let people log them if they want. No one I think is trying to force people to log them. All the event caches we have logged have been log books we have signed and they were a lot of fun.

 

Also I don't consider myself number hungry by any means. Event caches make sense though. There is several good reasons to give them their own catagory. Thanks.

Edited by Treasure Hunting Family

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What is wrong with logging all the fun event caches you found on your main "attended" event log? That's what we all do out here.....

 

The point is having fun, logging what you did at the event and thanking the folks that held the event in your log. The point isn't to find some way to rack up smilies. I know some people are really abusing the temp event cache thing. Some of these people have attended 1000 events. To me that's ridiculous.

 

I was also glad to hear that you guys are getting permission from the DNR. I'm surprised they gave it to you because most of those guys don't like when people trample all over protected/sensitive habitat. That's one of the main reasons that caches are not allowed there in the first place.

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The park management is very aware of sensitive areas and asked that all caches be placed in areas that are safe to hike on. The naturalist for the park talked to the group after the days events and was very impressed with everyone's respect for the park. If you are just a visitor to the park, you still would have to obey the sensitive areas signs anyways. With respect to logging those finds, the point of the topic (to my understanding) is to find a way to make these logs appear as their own entity and not be logged under an "attended" icon. There have been some really great suggestions on how to do this, I just hope that the big dogs are listening...

 

Let's take the example of Treasure Hunting's Family. They cache with a disabled son. I am sure this young man is not after high numbers, but he probably gets a real kick out of logging his finds and getting a smiley for them rather than just a note. I know this may be the exception and yes there are people out there with multiple attended logs, but if you take the ability to log those finds away from one you take away from all. Personally, if this kid or other big kids at heart have fun watching that smiley count grow, it sure isn't hurting me and more power to 'em for getting out there with their families and having a good time. Until they find a better system, that is the only way to do it right now. Great that it is being discussed here.

Edited by lonesumdove

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Why is logging the caches you find during an event an attempt to "rack up smilies" any more or less than logging the caches you find anywhere else?

 

That might be the thing we need most to change.

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Why is logging the caches you find during an event an attempt to "rack up smilies" any more or less than logging the caches you find anywhere else?
Because without any rules people could simply bring several logbooks to the event and put them on a table and say those are temp caches. This happens and examples like this have been bought up in other threads. So with no rules what is the meaning of logging these temp caches?

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Why is logging the caches you find during an event an attempt to "rack up smilies" any more or less than logging the caches you find anywhere else?
Because without any rules people could simply bring several logbooks to the event and put them on a table and say those are temp caches. This happens and examples like this have been bought up in other threads. So with no rules what is the meaning of logging these temp caches?

That's exactly what this thread is about - creating a system so that the abuse stops, but without eliminating all temp caches.

 

** from here on down, this is a general response to the thread, and not to TrailGators in particular

Several of the posters who are for this change have even noted that they are willing to adopt the change even if it means that the temp event caches do not count toward your find total. Does this sound like people thinking only of racking up numbers? I agree - there is definite potential for abuse in the system, and if the forums are even slightly correct, there has recently been an upswing in abuse. Well, this thread is an attempt to develop ways to minimize the abuse. Set rules for these caches -- for example, that they must follow all of the regular cache guidelines except the "temporary cache" restriction (or whatever rules are chosen). Right now, there are no rules for temp event caches. They *could* be what TrailGators described (I've never seen anything like that, but I'll admit it's certainly possible). Ok, so how do we prevent that?

 

Just saying "stop having temp event caches" won't work. First, some groups have been told by TPTB that temp event caches are the preferred option. Second, without rules, they've already existed for a long time, so if we continue to have no rules for them...

Just saying "ok have them, but you can't log them" isn't satisfying either. First - re-read this thread. Most (of the people supporting temp event caches) say either that they prefer they count, but would be fine with them not counting OR say that they don't care if they count, they just want a way to log them. So, it sounds like it's not just about the smiley - it's about the chance to post the log about the find. Will some people post boring find logs? Yup - I have myself. Guess what - people also post boring found it logs on "normal" caches. But, some people, even when they type in boring logs, just enjoy that process of logging online. They already found the container and signed it. Now they want to post about it.

 

AND, they'd like a system for posting about it, and being able to easily re-find those posts in the future. Right now, we can by re-reading "attended it" logs. Ok, if you don't like that option, then give a viable alternative. If we post as notes, then on our "my account" page, they'd be all mixed up with other notes having nothing to do with cache finds "I stopped by and droipped off a TB today" or "hey - school is out of session so now might be a good time to try for this cache if you've been thinking about it" are things I've posted notes for. Not really the same type of thing - but impossible to quickly sort if both (actual notes and temp event cache finds) are logged identically.

 

edit: typos typos typos -- sorry!

Edited by Beffums

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Why is logging the caches you find during an event an attempt to "rack up smilies" any more or less than logging the caches you find anywhere else?
Because without any rules people could simply bring several logbooks to the event and put them on a table and say those are temp caches. This happens and examples like this have been bought up in other threads. So with no rules what is the meaning of logging these temp caches?

That's exactly what this thread is about - creating a system so that the abuse stops, but without eliminating all temp caches.

 

** from here on down, this is a general response to the thread, and not to TrailGators in particular

Several of the posters who are for this change have even noted that they are willing to adopt the change even if it means that the temp event caches do not count toward your find total. Does this sound like people thinking only of racking up numbers? I agree - there is definite potential for abuse in the system, and if the forums are even slightly correct, there has recently been an upswing in abuse. Well, this thread is an attempt to develop ways to minimize the abuse. Set rules for these caches -- for example, that they must follow all of the regular cache guidelines except the "temporary cache" restriction (or whatever rules are chosen). Right now, there are no rules for temp event caches. They *could* be what TrailGators described (I've never seen anything like that, but I'll admit it's certainly possible). Ok, so how do we prevent that?

 

Just saying "stop having temp event caches" won't work. First, some groups have been told by TPTB that temp event caches are the preferred option. Second, without rules, they've already existed for a long time, so if we continue to have no rules for them...

Just saying "ok have them, but you can't log them" isn't satisfying either. First - re-read this thread. Most (of the people supporting temp event caches) say either that they prefer they count, but would be fine with them not counting OR say that they don't care if they count, they just want a way to log them. So, it sounds like it's not just about the smiley - it's about the chance to post the log about the find. Will some people post boring find logs? Yup - I have myself. Guess what - people also post boring found it logs on "normal" caches. But, some people, even when they type in boring logs, just enjoy that process of logging online. They already found the container and signed it. Now they want to post about it.

 

AND, they'd like a system for posting about it, and being able to easily re-find those posts in the future. Right now, we can by re-reading "attended it" logs. Ok, if you don't like that option, then give a viable alternative. If we post as notes, then on our "my account" page, they'd be all mixed up with other notes having nothing to do with cache finds "I stopped by and droipped off a TB today" or "hey - school is out of session so now might be a good time to try for this cache if you've been thinking about it" are things I've posted notes for. Not really the same type of thing - but impossible to quickly sort if both (actual notes and temp event cache finds) are logged identically.

 

edit: typos typos typos -- sorry!

Beffums don't get me wrong. I'm sure the majority that do this temp thing follow the cache placement rules and are well-intentioned. I understand the real driver is not being able to cache in state parks. However, I have seen temp caches at events in areas where caches were allowed. So why weren't they made into approved caches? To me it just seems like it will be very difficult for temp caches not to be abused. I still think your local reviewer could review and approve these event caches and then you guys could archive them right after the event. There is no rule about how long a cache has to be active.

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There is no rule about how long a cache has to be active.

 

Yes, there is. Quoted from the listing requirements/guidelines:

 

Cache Permanence

 

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, ... temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed.

Edited by Mary&Dave

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