Spoiling Puzzle Caches....

3.9k · June 7, 2006

As a lot of you are aware, I'm a bit of an evil bar-steward when in comes to setting puzzle caches, but I'm not sure those of you who don't place puzzle caches, especially evil ones, are aware how much time and effort goes into them.

Today, it has come to my attention that one of my caches, that took several hours work to devise the puzzle for and about four hours of checking several hundred potential hiding spots for (from a list of 10,000 that I had to calculate), is now solvable in under a minute by an average ten year old.

Now, I don't mind people seeking help to solve puzzles, but a recent finder decided to do this in an online forum and one of his mates posted the answer to the thread. So now that the ever-vigilant google spider has grasped a hold of it, the answer to what was a pretty hard puzzle can be found by a single google search of the only information on the cache page.

I know that several of the finders of this particular cache spent many hours, some spread over several weeks, to solve the puzzle and thereby acheived a sense of satisfaction. I have have no choice now but to archive the cache, rated in the top 8% by GC:UK, as it would not be fair to allow it to stand.

So, my plea: if you seek help to solve puzzles that people have devoted time and effort concocting, do it in such a way that it's not archived for all see.

3.8k · June 7, 2006

Cant You just ask them to edit the location out of the post?

Seems a shame for all your hard work to go to waste :anibad:

3.9k · June 7, 2006

Google will hold onto the information for months if not longer.

I had a homepage when I was at university in the VERY early days of the WWW, created in 1992 and deleted when I left in 1995 and google cached that until only a few months ago.

Unfortunatly is the only one of my puzzles that cannot be re-worked to another location, at least not without spending several hours on it.

3.8k · June 7, 2006

Google will still point to the page but wont it show the "current" page??

so if they edit out the number from their post it will not show.

June 7, 2006

That's a shame, I'm sorry. We had the gist of that one as well. Another unfound on our front page bites the dust :-(.

Andy

3.9k · June 7, 2006

Google will still point to the page but wont it show the "current" page??

so if they edit out the number from their post it will not show.

Like I said, google CACHED the page for years, you could click on the 'cached' link until sometime at the backend of last year and see all the text if not the images.

{Cached as in stored not as in hidden under a big rock}

June 7, 2006

You may also be unlucky and have the page indexed by the Way Back Machine - http://www.archive.org/web/web.php - in which case it will be available for pretty much all time :anibad:

Even when it finally gets dropped by Google, it will still be in the Way Back Machine.

Edited June 7, 2006 by The Bolas Heathens

1.1k · June 7, 2006

Even when it finally gets dropped by Google, it will still be in the Way Back Machine.

I bookmarked this site last year.

It's interetsing going back isn't it?

I can sympathise with Rutson's feelings here. However, maybe it's possible to state on the cache page that future finders need to prove the find by "legitimate" means, by way of an email to you, and any sus logs will be deleted?

Just a thought.

:blink:

Jon

3.9k · June 7, 2006

I don't think that would be fair on the people who've worked hard to solve the puzzle Mr.Dewdrop. Anyhow, I've had the cache lifted.

1.6k · June 7, 2006

I do concur with Rutson's views on this matter. I am not averse to cachers seeking help/hints on solving puzzles but it would be nice if the actual cachers did try to solve it first rather than see the cache page and PAF a previous finder for either the answer or clue to solve having put ZERO effort into it.

Unfortunately, alot of these caches are mysterious for the first few days after being found. On the other hand, some cachers do keep quiet and I thank them all for it.

Oss!

June 7, 2006

To play devil's advocate I would say that this was the spoilers first cache and it looks suspiciously like it may have been their most local cache. Plus they did admit to what they had done on their log.

I've had a couple of very green cachers contact me about puzzle caches and from what I can make out because other people have found it they think that as a local cache they should be able to find it too. Maybe the GC.com intro needs to be revised or better still a link to the Geocachers University guides could be much more prominent. If those new to the sport get the idea that all they need to do is find the nearest cache, but a GPSr then pop out and get it accidents will happen.

After all at least this isn't deliberate spoiling compared to experienced cachers supplying solves to the spoiler sites. :blink:

Chae

June 7, 2006

Personally I have spoiled all but my most recent puzzle cache on my own. I created a public bookmark that gives away the coords. I did this so that more people would hunt my caches. The puzzles were fun but some people just don't want to (or can't) solve the puzzles. Since it is all about finding the caches I am happy that more cachers are finding mine.

I disagree with archiving the cache, but what is done is done.

I do appreciate how hard it must have been to find the right place to hide your cache. Must have taken hours of going to spots and checking them out etc.

1.8k · June 7, 2006

I like puzzle caches, they are some of my favourites. But I get maximum satisfaction solving them myself. When I have asked setters questions to assertain if I am on the right track, I have specifically asked them not to give additional clues or hints.

It does annoy me when a new puzzle cache appears and the first four logs all say things like "This was a toughy until I emailed/txt/rang/bought a pint for/etc the setter/previous finder/etc and the answer was suddenly staring me in the face". If caches are meant to be solved in this "not what you know but who you know" way I would be grateful if setters could ensure the description includes their mobile number, the address of their local and details of their favourite tipple!

I know the old "play it your own way" argument, but surely setters set problems because they want to set a challenge for cachers. Sharing info on solving puzzles just doesn't seem much fun for anyone unless you are only interested in numbers.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Learned Gerbil

June 7, 2006

I like puzzle caches, they are some of my favourites. But i get maximum satisfaction solving them myself. When I have asked setters questions to assertain if I am on the right track, I have specifically asked them not to give additional clues or hints.

It does annoy me when a new puzzle cache appears and the first four logs all say things like "This was a toughy until I emailed/txt/rang/bought a pint for/etc the setter/previous finder/etc and the answer was suddenly staring me in the face. If caches are meant to be solved in this "no what you know but who you know" way I would be grateful if setters could ensure the description includes their mobile number, the address of their local and details of their favourite tipple!

I know the old "play it your own way" argument, but surely setters set problems because they want to set a challenge for cachers. Sharing info on solving puzzles just doesn't seem much fun for anyone unless you are only interested in numbers.

We too thoroughly enjoy the challenge of a good brain tease. There's a world of difference between using internet to research answers (as is a must for some puzzles - try 2202's QI puzzle for size!!) and going straight to the answer on a plate. We would never e:mail a cache setter and ask for the solution - defeats the whole object. We have been known to ask for a broad hint when totally bamboozled, but only after weeks of headscratching - and in both cases we are stilkl struggling! Shame about Rutson's puzzle which led to this thread. As it's 200 miles from us we probably would not have come across it in the normal course of events, but it does look like a cracker. Hope this experience doesn't put you (Rutson) off! Pete

Edited June 7, 2006 by Sharpeset

1.2k · June 7, 2006

I'm with Rutson all the way - a couple of my caches were a bit twisty, if not puzzles and I was always a bit sad when people gave the twists away in logs.

June 7, 2006

I spotted one of my puzzle caches on a site that lists puzzle caches and their solutions- "because caches are meant to be found". However, there was no solution given! It would defeat a puzzle cache if the answer was plain for all to see but if someone emailed me and said they didn't like/ couldn't solve puzzle caches but wanted to do one of mine I would give them the solution but would expect them to mention this in the log out of respect to the people who had solved it.

Edited June 7, 2006 by Pieman

June 7, 2006

I've noticed that some cachers take great joy in posting photos of collections of items either at the final location or at quirky stages around multis. What they seem to forget is that we too want the joy of discovering these quirky places. I know that more often than not collections of furry items belong to the younger members of teams but the younger member of this team particularly enjoys quirky stages/caches and even at 11 takes exception to such spoilers.

The pop up photo feature in particular has added to the pain as before you could decide whether or not to look but now the accidental passage of a cursor can give the game away. We're not ultra purists who object to any photo of a cache container not posted by the placer, we're just asking for some consideration for those of us who follow. We just want to have the same sense of discovery that you did and its not too hasrd to degrade the picture quality or smudge out things you don't want others to see. :blink:

1.5k · June 8, 2006

The pop up photo feature in particular has added to the pain as before you could decide whether or not to look but now the accidental passage of a cursor can give the game away. We're not ultra purists who object to any photo of a cache container not posted by the placer, we're just asking for some consideration for those of us who follow. We just want to have the same sense of discovery that you did and its not too hasrd to degrade the picture quality or smudge out things you don't want others to see.

I know it's not a perfect solution but if you browse with images turned off then the pop-ups don't work. That way you won't catch them by accident

1.7k · June 8, 2006

Having set a particularly fiendish cache in surrey (IMHO anyway! ) a also sympathise completely with Ian. A fair degree of research and thought went into ours, and I'd like to think our fellow cachers wold at leat try and solve it in the way it was meant to be! I don;t object at all to people asking for clues, or confirming they are on the right track, or even checking some final coords before setting off on what may be a long trip, so long as I think they are trying!

Also, in my case, getting the final coords in some other way means not visiting a place thats well worth going to! If you catch my drift....

Dave

June 8, 2006

I am totally mortified about this. I am deeply sorry. Needless to say I didn't consider the insidious power of Google for one moment. I will do my best to get the thread deleted and I have checked the Wayback machine - it's not on there yet.

There may be hope. I appreciate the amount of work which must have gone into setting this puzzle. Be assured I spent many hours trying to figure this one out myself. I never asked for the answer, only help in finding it.

I'm not known for being stupid and I hope you will forgive my mistake.

Sorry.

UPDATE - Having edited all references from the thread, the answer is no longer accessible by Google or the Wayback Machine. I have tried hard to find the original thread using the Google cache and have not been able to do it. I have searched for terms only found on the second page of the thread, where the answer was posted, and it has not come up in the Google cache.

I think this should make it possible to replace the (Geo) cache. But then, what do I know?

..Richard - still sorry (but hopeful this amazing puzzle might yet be rescued)

Edited June 8, 2006 by where_am_I?

June 8, 2006

That's good to hear - I'm halfway through solving it.

Rutson is out of the country at the moment, but I'm sure a few beers on his return will persude him to have a change of heart.

I want that smiley!

June 8, 2006

That's good to hear - I'm halfway through solving it.

Rutson is out of the country at the moment, but I'm sure a few beers on his return will persude him to have a change of heart.

I want that smiley!

I have made that offer of a few beers already, as I live close by. Conveniently, there is a pub near the car park at the start of the walk to this cache, should Mr Rutson care to replace the cache or allow me to do it.

3.9k · June 9, 2006

Richard,

Many thanks for the offer, I may well take you up on that when I get back to the the UK. I realise that you meant no harm in asking for help and it DOES look like we got away without the thread being archived, which is a relief.

The container needed some TLC anyway so it'll probably be replaced on my return.

Thanks for your kind email and efforts to correct an honest mistake.

Ian

June 9, 2006

Richard,

Many thanks for the offer, I may well take you up on that when I get back to the the UK. I realise that you meant no harm in asking for help and it DOES look like we got away without the thread being archived, which is a relief.

The container needed some TLC anyway so it'll probably be replaced on my return.

Thanks for your kind email and efforts to correct an honest mistake.

Ian

Phew, what a relief. Have a safe trip.

..Richard

1k · June 9, 2006

doh! I knew I should have wrote the answer down

June 19, 2006

Personally I have spoiled all but my most recent puzzle cache on my own. I created a public bookmark that gives away the coords. I did this so that more people would hunt my caches. The puzzles were fun but some people just don't want to (or can't) solve the puzzles. Since it is all about finding the caches I am happy that more cachers are finding mine.

We have set a puzzle cache that we are quite proud of (<snip>), but have also recently set another, traditional, cache not far away (<snip>) that contains a clue as to how to solve the puzzle cache.

This gives people who want to do the puzzle the chance to do it without help, and also gives help to those that need or want it.

Edited by Lactodorum to remove inadvertant cache advertising :laughing:

Edited June 19, 2006 by Lactodorum

3.9k · June 19, 2006

I had a homepage when I was at university in the VERY early days of the WWW, created in 1992 and deleted when I left in 1995 and google cached that until only a few months ago.

I just discovered this thread... but I can't resist. Google was founded in 1998. Where did they get the copy of a site which was deleted in 1995 ?!

3.9k · June 19, 2006

Now THAT is an interesting point! The URL is still hit number five for 'rutson' though. I'd like to know how too.

3.9k · June 20, 2006

Now THAT is an interesting point! The URL is still hit number five for 'rutson' though. I'd like to know how too.

Never mind... #1 is a "Rutson Rehabilitation Centre", dedicated to help you get over it :blink:

June 20, 2006

Now THAT is an interesting point! The URL is still hit number five for 'rutson' though. I'd like to know how too.

I feel as though I should be able to answer this 'cos it's one of my servers :blink: . We stopped using the '~username' mechanism years ago and moved personal pages to a separate server. All I can think is that somewhere on t'interweb there is a page that still contains a link to your old page because Google is just showing a stub. The Wayback Machine has a few of our web pages going back to 96 but I doubt if it comes from there.

It'll probably be on an archive CD if you want a copy :blink:

Geoff

3.9k · June 20, 2006

The wayback machine used to have it, but at some stage it seems a robots.txt file blocked spidering. It's no hardship, it was awful. Not Mr Bell is it?

June 20, 2006

The wayback machine used to have it, but at some stage it seems a robots.txt file blocked spidering. It's no hardship, it was awful. Not Mr Bell is it?

'fraid so.

3.9k · June 20, 2006

Hmmmm..... I wonder if I can tell you what I really thought of you 15 years ago when you changed by password :blink:

It wasn't MY fault some darned fool mate of mine printed out the karma sutra in it's entirity on the line printer and left my email address on it :$

I have to admit to chuckling though; new password 'sixtynine'.

June 20, 2006

At the risk of going even further off topic...

Hmmmm..... I wonder if I can tell you what I really thought of you 15 years ago when you changed by password

We're not allowed to do that any more. Computer and network access is considered to be so important to a student that we now have a proper procedure to follow. I can only close an account if all attempts to make contact have failed, or if there is a danger that the system's security may be compromised, or if I feel like it.

It wasn't MY fault some darned fool mate of mine printed out the karma sutra in it's entirity on the line printer and left my email address on it :$

I have to admit to chuckling though; new password 'sixtynine'.

It's sometimes difficult to keep a straight face during those "interviews."

1.1k · June 20, 2006

We're not allowed to do that any more. Computer and network access is considered to be so important to a student that we now have a proper procedure to follow. I can only close an account if all attempts to make contact have failed, or if there is a danger that the system's security may be compromised, or if I feel like it.

You're a BOFH then?

3.9k · June 20, 2006

You're a BOFH then?

Sounds like it, right down to the special leaking toner cartridge, the power to add disk quota by deleting files, and of course the decision to run the backup to the null device (also known by its rhyming slang name, the "bit bucket" :blink: ), which saves not only run time but also getting up to change tapes.

June 20, 2006

You're a BOFH then?

Sounds like it, right down to the special leaking toner cartridge, the power to add disk quota by deleting files, and of course the decision to run the backup to the null device (also known by its rhyming slang name, the "bit bucket" ), which saves not only run time but also getting up to change tapes.

I'm supposed to be a PHB these days, but I'm still a BOFH at heart. I've managed to recruit a whole clone army who go round causing chaos performing upgrades on my behalf. All quota requests are done as quid pro quo. You delete some of your junk and I won't take the space you've just freed off you. Firm but fair.

We're really very professional; it says so in our mission statement.

1.1k · June 20, 2006

On the subject of spoiling puzzle caches, could someone perhaps spoil this one for me? :blink:

I've tried and tried to solve this puzzle - I've got loads of links to websites with what appears to be all the information I need but whenever I try and decipher the text I just get gibberish... :blink:

Could someone put me out of my misery please?

Please don't post any solutions here, but I'd appreciate any help via PM....

Thankyou

Tormented from Cumbria.

Edited June 20, 2006 by The Golem

June 20, 2006

Could someone put me out of my misery please?

Please don't post any solutions here, but I'd appreciate any help via PM....

Thankyou

Tormented from Cumbria.

Since we intend sticking at this one to the bitter end we would be most upset if any hints appear in the forums or elsewhere.

MBF

1.1k · June 20, 2006

I thought the line:

"Please don't post any solutions here, but I'd appreciate any help via PM"

made that quite clear...

June 20, 2006

I thought the line:

"Please don't post any solutions here, but I'd appreciate any help via PM"

made that quite clear...

so does this then mean its ok to delete peoples logs for caches of yours they have found because i think this is most unfair :rolleyes: were all never going to agree on everything but to delete someones log who have gone to a cache of yours is just petty just because there not wanting a puzzle spoiled i really cant believe you would do that

June 20, 2006

Eh?!

June 20, 2006

Not sure either???

June 20, 2006

Eh?!

the golem has deleted MBFace's logs of his caches because they have posted here not wanting the puzzle solved as they are working on it.................... and i think it stinks i cant believe a cache owner would delete a log over something like this. No one is going to agree 100% all the time but to delete logs after caches have been found is terrible

June 20, 2006

I thought the line:

"Please don't post any solutions here, but I'd appreciate any help via PM"

made that quite clear...

There always seems to be some idiot about to whom statements like that aren't quite clear. We've been working on Sick Clanger for ages and would hate to stumble across any hints.

Seeing as two of our logs from your caches have now been deleted this is our final contribution to this thread.

MBF

1.1k · June 20, 2006

If any hints were sent to me via PM how would you stumble over them?

I'm tired of receiving comments from MBFace about my caches and log entries...

1.7k · June 20, 2006

Let's not let this thread start getting silly. Deleting logs sounds a little harsh to me as does calling someone an idiot

Any more such nonsense and I'll be taking appropriate action.

Edited June 20, 2006 by Lactodorum

1.1k · June 20, 2006

OK - I admit - it was childish :rolleyes:

MBFace are welcome to re-enter their log entries - please, no more emails about 2 fingered salutes and taking exception to comments I make on my logs though....

June 20, 2006

Not got an issue with people putting hints to caches in their logs, it can be encrypted for those who don't want to see it and the cache owner can always delete it if they feel it totally gives it away.

I've tried to use the hints in the logs for Sick Clanger and QuestFTRing, alas they've not helped me yet

Also earlier in the year someone requested help with the Sick Clanger cache and a couple of people sent some hints to those requesting including myself - still not solved it

1.1k · June 20, 2006

Just to say - I've received a hint via PM and I'm hopefully going to decode it within the next half hour or so - I've missed most of the football but it'll be worth it!

Spoiling Puzzle Caches....

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