An Open Letter To Groundspeak

9.4k · June 4, 2006

OK - I've got one of these:

...but it's for the the Getting Started forum, so I *think* I can post here, right?

I don't really have a comment about the aspect of these caches being shut down one way or the other.

But if it was NOT about trying to push the envelope on what is "logable", can someone that helped organize GW4 explain to me the logic of the e-mail I got from one of the volunteers on Feb 20 2006 asking if I could send them my Project APE cache so people could log it in Texas?

I've never been to Oregon, but I did help pay for the Original Stash Tribute Plaque when Team360 visited me in New Mexico. Does that mean I can log it as a find? I mean, that's almost a pocket cache, since it was unveiled at an event in Arizona before 360 took it to Oregon.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Team GPSaxophone

June 4, 2006

OK - I've got one of these:

...but it's for the the Getting Started forum, so I *think* I can post here, right?

I don't really have a comment about the aspect of these caches being shut down one way or the other.

But if it was NOT about trying to push the envelope on what is "logable", can someone that helped organize GW4 explain to me the logic of the e-mail I got from one of the volunteers on Feb 20 2006 asking if I could send them my Project APE cache so people could log it in Texas?

DOH!

2.6k · June 4, 2006

OK - I've got one of these:

...but it's for the the Getting Started forum, so I *think* I can post here, right?

I don't really have a comment about the aspect of these caches being shut down one way or the other.

But if it was NOT about trying to push the envelope on what is "logable", can someone that helped organize GW4 explain to me the logic of the e-mail I got from one of the volunteers on Feb 20 2006 asking if I could send them my Project APE cache so people could log it in Texas?

I've never been to Oregon, but I did help pay for the Original Stash Tribute Plaque when Team360 visited me in New Mexico. Does that mean I can log it as a find? I mean, that's almost a pocket cache, right?

Hey I got an idea. Let's all go log a find just for the heck of it.

Here PIGGY PIGGY PIGGY

June 4, 2006

Burn baby burn.....

If this thing gets any hotter we could roast a PIG.

We could...but, would we really want to eat it???

June 4, 2006

Found this in the FAQ's on GC.com

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

Where you place a cache is up to you.

Looks like they need to change the FAQ's if they don't want Pocket Caches.

Britney

9.4k · June 4, 2006

Found this in the FAQ's on GC.com

What are the rules in Geocaching?

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

1. Take something from the cache

2. Leave something in the cache

3. Write about it in the logbook

Where you place a cache is up to you.

Looks like they need to change the FAQ's if they don't want Pocket Caches.

Britney

Keep reading. When you get to the guidelines (you know the stuff you have to say you read before you can submit your cache for listing?) you'll find that moving and temporary caches are not allowed.

2.5k · June 4, 2006

Oh, you wanted to use it too??? I thought you brought it for me! Geesh..I can be SUCH a bad judge of character sometimes...ok, back into hiding!

Yes I brought it for you! But what do you want to do, roast with the pig, who I hear has been requested to join the party, and sit REALLY close to the fire.

Edit: goofed up the wording again

Edit: Put it back, it was funnier that way.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Airmapper

2.6k · June 4, 2006

Burn baby burn.....

If this thing gets any hotter we could roast a PIG.

We could...but, would we really want to eat it???

I didn't say was going to eat it. Just roast roast.

The fine folk dining at this thread will take plenty though.

June 4, 2006

seems simple enough, from the "cache listings and requirements" page:

Cache Permanence

When you report a cache on the Geocaching.com web site, geocachers should (and will) expect the cache to be there for a realistic and extended period of time. Therefore, caches that have the goal to move (“traveling caches”), or temporary caches (caches hidden for less than 3 months or for events) most likely will not be listed. If you wish to hide caches for an event, bring printouts to the event and hand them out there.

We realize that it is possible that a planned long-term cache occasionally becomes finite because of concerns with the environment, missing or plundered caches, or the owner’s decision to remove the cache for other valid reasons. Please do your best to research fully, hide wisely, and maintain properly for a long cache life.

June 4, 2006

Only those that don't know the meaning behind our statements...in which case...LET THEM EAT!!!!

And for the record...I will NOT be sitting by a roasting pig...them things STINK!!!

2.6k · June 4, 2006

Only those that don't know the meaning behind our statements...in which case...LET THEM EAT!!!!

And for the record...I will NOT be sitting by a roasting pig...them things STINK!!!

LMAO <_<

June 4, 2006

Uh oh...it's getting VEWY VEWY quiet in here!

1.5k · June 4, 2006

All kidding aside from the peanut gallery, what I first thought to be a rumor has in fact turned about to be true. The people who put together GW4 wanted to borrow an APE cache so people could log it???

I am actually very interested in hearing their side of the story since moving it would make it a pocket cache (a huge pocket at that one) and thus would have to be archived. I'll be honest I stopped reading the other 2 threads around page 6 or so and I did not realize the amount of caches that have said to been archived due to the fall out.

Second question--what is the offical # so far of caches that have been archived due to all this?

2.6k · June 4, 2006

Uh oh...it's getting VEWY VEWY quiet in here!

Don't worry, they'll smell roast PIG and come runnin'.

June 4, 2006

All kidding aside from the peanut gallery, what I first thought to be a rumor has in fact turned about to be true. The people who put together GW4 wanted to borrow an APE cache so people could log it???

I am actually very interested in hearing their side of the story since moving it would make it a pocket cache (a huge pocket at that one) and thus would have to be archived. I'll be honest I stopped reading the other 2 threads around page 6 or so and I did not realize the amount of caches that have said to been archived due to the fall out.

Second question--what is the offical # so far of caches that have been archived due to all this?

All kidding aside from the peanut....oh, wait, that includes me..HEY!

Seriously though, did they at least offer to pay the shipping if you sent that thing to them???

June 4, 2006

Uh oh...it's getting VEWY VEWY quiet in here!

Don't worry, they'll smell roast PIG and come runnin'.

hehe...I would run the other way...now back to what I was doing...what was I doing??? Oh, yeah, geochat...DUH!

<_< (don't blow my cover!)

2.6k · June 4, 2006

All kidding aside from the peanut gallery

Hey! <_< I resemble that remark!

21.9k · June 4, 2006

Since my last post, I see a whole lot of posts that have very little to do with pocket caches, GeoWoodstock, Groundspeak's response, and other on-topic subjects. Just as I've asked Snoogans to follow forum customs and permit discussion of these issues, I must now remind everyone to respect his topic and not post off-topic. So, no more off topic posts. Thank you.

June 4, 2006

All kidding aside from the peanut gallery

Hey! I resemble that remark!

sorry Keystone, we posted at the same time. I'll quietly go back to the chat room!

Edited June 4, 2006 by The Herd

2.6k · June 4, 2006

Since my last post, I see a whole lot of posts that have very little to do with pocket caches, GeoWoodstock, Groundspeak's response, and other on-topic subjects. Just as I've asked Snoogans to follow forum customs and permit discussion of these issues, I must now remind everyone to respect his topic and not post off-topic. So, no more off topic posts. Thank you.

Was he talking to us??????

2.3k · June 4, 2006

I've never been to Oregon, but I did help pay for the Original Stash Tribute Plaque when Team360 visited me in New Mexico. Does that mean I can log it as a find? I mean, that's almost a pocket cache, since it was unveiled at an event in Arizona before 360 took it to Oregon.

Well, you can try, SmurfBoy, but your smiley will surely not last long...I hear the owner of the cache is a real ^%&$ when it comes to legit finds

6.4k · June 4, 2006

OK - I've got one of these:

...but it's for the the Getting Started forum, so I *think* I can post here, right?

I don't really have a comment about the aspect of these caches being shut down one way or the other.

But if it was NOT about trying to push the envelope on what is "logable", can someone that helped organize GW4 explain to me the logic of the e-mail I got from one of the volunteers on Feb 20 2006 asking if I could send them my Project APE cache so people could log it in Texas?

So another GeoWoodstock rumor is confirmed true........ interesting.

June 4, 2006

Since my last post, I see a whole lot of posts that have very little to do with pocket caches, GeoWoodstock, Groundspeak's response, and other on-topic subjects. Just as I've asked Snoogans to follow forum customs and permit discussion of these issues, I must now remind everyone to respect his topic and not post off-topic. So, no more off topic posts. Thank you.

Was he talking to us??????

I think so...but I'm too scared to ask! You ask!

Edited June 4, 2006 by The Herd

1.5k · June 4, 2006

I'm on the east coast so it is late here, so I am going to edit my post and be more respectful, The Herd and Totem, Keystone made the comment that this thread needs to stay on topic. I am not going to point fingers, but just read what has been posted and you will know what is and is not on topic to the OPs starting post. Agree or disagree with the OP, he has his right to express his feelings, and we should respect that.

Edited June 4, 2006 by geoholic28

9.4k · June 4, 2006

I've never been to Oregon, but I did help pay for the Original Stash Tribute Plaque when Team360 visited me in New Mexico. Does that mean I can log it as a find? I mean, that's almost a pocket cache, since it was unveiled at an event in Arizona before 360 took it to Oregon.

Well, you can try, SmurfBoy, but your smiley will surely not last long...I hear the owner of the cache is a real ^%&$ when it comes to legit finds

Of course, this is coming from the one cacher that can log as many pocket caches as he wants because he doesn't log them on this website

5.9k · June 4, 2006

Disclaimer:

I do not work for Groundspeak.

I do not volunteer at Groundspeak.

I cannot archive a cache.

I cannot believe this is still going on! This has nothing to do with GW4 as there were many caches that were archived recently that had nothing to do with that event.

Those caches were archived because they did not follow the terms the hider agreed to follow.

• If you mass email (spam) using your ISP, they will lock your account.

• If you don’t ship items you sell on ebay, they will cancel your account (among other things).

• If your geocache does not abide by the terms you originally agreed to, they will archive it.

For all the weak justification and all the bogus righteous indignation, the facts are the facts. So far there hasn’t been any justification for pocket caches that rises above immature intellectual dwarfism. “We did it before” does not allow you special privilege to violate the guidelines. ”It’s not hurting anyone” does not give you unique exception to violate the guidelines. <_<

I like you Snoogins, we’ve both been here a long time, but I don’t understand your hostility. If you’re trying to say that the poor guy who had his bikes stolen would have somehow had a better time at GW4 if he had been able to log pocket caches is frankly absurd! One of the caches was his 300th find? 300th what exactly? This is asinine.

June 4, 2006

I heard today, from the cache owner, that a GRANFATHERED moving cache of his got archived because of all this idiocy by the self proclaimed "cache cops".

Please all of you- get out and have some fun looking for caches. Liife is too short to be so angry at people that you have to ruin their fun.

June 4, 2006

First, I would like to start by saying, "Thank You!" to Snoogans and all those involved in hosting GW4; the event and the people we met were awesome! However.....

we were very disappointed when we got home and started logging our 'temp/pocket/moving' caches, only to have our logs deleted two days later.

We understand the 'rules' set forth by GC - but aren't ALL 'rules' subject to being broken???

Perhaps TPTB at GC should listen to those supporting their website and buying their products - and maybe consider a 'survey' when faced with such an issue (and let ALL cachers vote). Just our $0.02 worth, we think pocket/temp caches should be allowed at large events because they are a terrific 'ice-breaker' and a fun way of meeting people!

Why should some be allowed to break the rules and not others? I've had caches rejected because they were too close to others; yet I was surprised to find two caches in downtown Dallas just 50 ft. from one another! Hmmm.......

We probably wouldn't have wasted our time (or our gas) on the temp caches - but wanted to show support for those who took the time to place them.

Perhaps this matter could be taken into consideration by TPTB and maybe temp/moving/pocket caches could fall into their own special category as 'locationless' caches once were.

Our other two comments involve the 'mega-event' icon and the site of next year's GW. Since 'mega-events' are becoming popular and GW is a sort of 'special' mega-event; shouldn't the icon for GW be a peace-sign (of sorts) and the existing icon be used for 'regular' mega-events? And, who gets to decide the site for the upcoming GW? Shouldn't that also be placed on the table for discussion???

I know if I were a business owner and my customers weren't satisfied, I'd try to find out why; afterall, my business depends on THEM.

9.4k · June 4, 2006

I heard today, from the cache owner, that a GRANFATHERED moving cache of his got archived because of all this idiocy by the self proclaimed "cache cops".

Please all of you- get out and have some fun looking for caches. Liife is too short to be so angry at people that you have to ruin their fun.

If it was a mistake, it can always be unarchived. Have patience. It's the middle of the weekend. If the cache owner writes to Groundspeak he'll hear back during nornal business hours.

1.5k · June 4, 2006

I can not resist and I am sorry ahead of time:

GW5 will be a year event and will move from city to city each day and every day you attend is another <_< for you to rack up.

Seriously now, the people who hosted the last event (In this case the Texas group) help pick the new location after going through the offical submissions groups send in to try to get Geowoodstock to come to their state.

June 4, 2006

"We understand the 'rules' set forth by GC - but aren't ALL 'rules' subject to being broken???"

am i really seeing this? hope i never have to drive anywhere near people who think this way!

8.4k · June 4, 2006

I like you Snoogins, we’ve both been here a long time, but I don’t understand your hostility. If you’re trying to say that the poor guy who had his bikes stolen would have somehow had a better time at GW4 if he had been able to log pocket caches is frankly absurd! One of the caches was his 300th find? 300th what exactly? This is asinine.

Criminal, I'm not hostile. I've seen so much hostility from you in the past few days I've reconsidered whether or not I want to meet you when I swing by that way. The jury is still out.

I'm not defending pocket finds I never would have logged or anyone elses.

I'm pointing out poor judgement in a course of action by TPTB that has caused collateral damage and it's THOSE people I want to come post here.

Reread the highlited portion of cuddle cub's post. HIS LEGIT FINDS AND OTHERS' WERE BLOCKED because of this mess.

Change the rules, but give notice and WARN first. THAT IS MY POINT.

Quit blindly restating the rules. THERE IS A BIGGER ISSUE! <_<

Edited June 4, 2006 by Snoogans

June 4, 2006

Why should some be allowed to break the rules and not others? I've had caches rejected because they were too close to others; yet I was surprised to find two caches in downtown Dallas just 50 ft. from one another! Hmmm.......

We probably wouldn't have wasted our time (or our gas) on the temp caches - but wanted to show support for those who took the time to place them.

Not saying this is the case cause I don't know the details but maybe the reason you found two caches within 50ft of each other was because one of them was a temporary cache which therefore was never reviewed or approved by a GC.com approver, which therefore does not reside in the GC.com database?!?!?! A GC.com approver can't be expected to enforce the .10 mile rule on a temporary cache which never comes across their desk.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Audion

9.4k · June 4, 2006

We understand the 'rules' set forth by GC - but aren't ALL 'rules' subject to being broken???

Well sure. If everyone is driving 75 in a 55 then no one gets a ticket, right? Wrong! They are all violating the rules, but the police can only stop so many. You might get away with driving a couple of miles above the limit, but when it becomes blatant, action will be taken.

Just our $0.02 worth, we think pocket/temp caches should be allowed at large events because they are a terrific 'ice-breaker' and a fun way of meeting people!

Temporary caches are already allowed at events, they just won't be published on the website. You also can't take a regular cache from somewhere else and allow it to be logged at an event because then it becomes a moving cache.

Why should some be allowed to break the rules and not others? I've had caches rejected because they were too close to others; yet I was surprised to find two caches in downtown Dallas just 50 ft. from one another! Hmmm.......

There are only so many volunteers helping to maintain the standards this site is built on. Those volunteers are human and so some caches may slip past them. That doesn't mean those caches are ok, it means they were overlooked. That can always be corrected later, but they have to know about it before they can do anything.

Perhaps this matter could be taken into consideration by TPTB and maybe temp/moving/pocket caches could fall into their own special category as 'locationless' caches once were.

Maybe you should suggest it as a Waymarking category since that's where the locationless caches exist these days.

June 4, 2006

I’m another attendee of GW4 and wanted to throw in my experience. Cudlecub and I had our mountain bikes stolen the first day in Dallas. It was destined to be a week from *&!! from the start. But we made the best of the situation. Unfortunately we didn’t make it to the pre-GW events we had planned on but we met many great people on mini cache runs during our stay. There were so many cachers at GW it was amazing. You really have to be there to understand what a major undertaking it was. Could things have been done differently? Sure. Should they be done differently? It all depends on how you play the game.

I understand pocket caches aren’t allowed. Some people log them on line while others don’t. To me the important thing with GeoWoodstock and any event is it’s an opportunity to meet people. Cub put it best that it’s all about the numbers. The number of friends, laughs, and memories that we will remember forever. That’s what GW was for me.

Thanks to those who put all the work and effort into GeoWoodstock. It was great to see all the cachers, make new friends, share caching stories and laugh at the craziness that was sometimes going on. The memories will last a lifetime.

June 4, 2006

Having just got back home to the UK after attending GW4 I have to agree with Snoogans statements. I did not have immediate access to a computer while others did and logged the cache I found that I am penalized for not logging it quickly enough.

Fair enough to stop the pocket caches but not in the middle of it being live, letting some cachers log it while others can not log it.

9.4k · June 4, 2006

I'm pointing out poor judgement in a course of action by TPTB that has caused collateral damage and it's THOSE people I want to come post here.

Reread the highlited portion of cuddle cub's post. HIS LEGIT FINDS AND OTHERS' WERE BLOCKED because of this mess.

You know good and well it's the weekend. Once the furor dies down, TPTB may allow the legit finds to be logged. It's far better to put things on hold until they can be straightened out than to let everyone think this carp is acceptable. How many more events have been held since GWIV? That's a lot of cachers that could have tried to duplicate it on a smaller scale had TPTB not sent such a strong message out.

June 4, 2006

I wasn't there and am not a moderator!

1.5k · June 4, 2006

So if the Illinois APE cache was brought in just for the event that would have counted as a legit log??

5.9k · June 4, 2006

I like you Snoogins, we’ve both been here a long time, but I don’t understand your hostility. If you’re trying to say that the poor guy who had his bikes stolen would have somehow had a better time at GW4 if he had been able to log pocket caches is frankly absurd! One of the caches was his 300th find? 300th what exactly? This is asinine.

Criminal, I'm not hostile. I've seen so much hostility from you in the past few days I've reconsidered whether or not I want to meet you when I swing by that way. The jury is still out.

I'm not defending pocket finds I never would have logged or anyone elses.

I'm pointing out poor judgement in a course of action by TPTB that has caused collateral damage and it's THOSE people I want to come post here.

Reread the highlited portion of cuddle cub's post. HIS LEGIT FINDS AND OTHERS' WERE BLOCKED because of this mess.

Change the rules, but give notice and WARN first. THAT IS MY POINT.

Quit blindly restating the rules. THERE IS A BIGGER ISSUE!

Hostile? I’ve tried numerous times to have an intellectual debate about this issue, so far nobody has even tried. Read this thread, I didn’t even know such a thing existed.

As a generally lazy person I’m shocked that the game that’s supposed to get all of us outside has devolved into such a slothful smiley grubbing drill. Yes, it DOES bother me that someone can stroll around at an event a log as many caches in a day as I have in almost five years. I worked for mine. I walked to the cache, whether it was 20 feet to bag another park cache or 105,600 feet for a DNF.

9.4k · June 4, 2006

So if the Illinois APE cache was brought in just for the event that would have counted as a legit log??

To the GWIV crowd? yes. To everyone else? no

June 4, 2006

Pocket and or moving caches wouldn't have helped anything with the trip. Bikes got stolen but the pleasure of meeting some great folks is priceless.

We had a fellow caching in our group who found a physical cache, not a pocket cache, that was disabled following the find. This was the cachers 300th find. It's not a big deal to most but it's a major milestone for someone that comes from a state that barely has that many caches in it's boundries. A note from the cache owner makes me feel someone replaced the cache early in May and they said they were deleting logs prior to May 6 I think it was. The log sheet that was signed had finds earlier than that date. My apologies if this strays from the topic, but I don't think I was clear on the original post.

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying events are about the number of people, new found friends, fun, and laughs. None of the controversy of the DRR, pocket caches, or travelling caches will take away the newly formed friendships and laughs the group had going to, from or while at GW.

June 4, 2006

Edit: Nevermind, it won't work anyway.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Polgara

1.5k · June 4, 2006

I'm sure I'm not alone in saying events are about the number of people, new found friends, fun, and laughs. None of the controversy of the DRR, pocket caches, or travelling caches will take away the newly formed friendships and laughs the group had going to, from or while at GW.

While I did not attend this year, I did attend GW3, and you are right about the friendships, fun, and stories, that you come home with.

Off topic---new jeeps this year??

3.1k · June 4, 2006

..... since Snoogans was nice enough to make this public. He could have just sent an email, leaving the community ignorant of the whole case, .....

Ummm...have you seen the umpteen other threads going on right now about these same topics.... <_<

Edited June 4, 2006 by ParentsofSAM

5.9k · June 4, 2006

I’m another attendee of GW4 and wanted to throw in my experience. Cudlecub and I had our mountain bikes stolen the first day in Dallas. It was destined to be a week from *&!! from the start. But we made the best of the situation. Unfortunately we didn’t make it to the pre-GW events we had planned on but we met many great people on mini cache runs during our stay. There were so many cachers at GW it was amazing. You really have to be there to understand what a major undertaking it was. Could things have been done differently? Sure. Should they be done differently? It all depends on how you play the game.

I understand pocket caches aren’t allowed. Some people log them on line while others don’t. To me the important thing with GeoWoodstock and any event is it’s an opportunity to meet people. Cub put it best that it’s all about the numbers. The number of friends, laughs, and memories that we will remember forever. That’s what GW was for me.

Thanks to those who put all the work and effort into GeoWoodstock. It was great to see all the cachers, make new friends, share caching stories and laugh at the craziness that was sometimes going on. The memories will last a lifetime.

The cynic in me wants to ask if we should log finds for The number of friends, laughs, and memories that we will remember forever. but I know that’s not what you meant. <_<

I’m sorry to hear about your bikes, I’d be devastated to lose mine like that. However, someone walking up to me and trying to get me to fish around in their pocket so I can have a few undeserved yellow smiley faces would not make me feel any better about it. The event sounds like it was a great time, I’d love to attend one (even if I wouldn’t log it). I wish the two things here, GW4 and the pocket caches, weren’t tied together.

June 4, 2006

..... since Snoogans was nice enough to make this public. He could have just sent an email, leaving the community ignorant of the whole case, .....

Ummm...have you seen the umpteen other threads going on right now about these same topics....

Yes I have (DUH). Your post proves my edit.

1.5k · June 4, 2006

However, someone walking up to me and trying to get me to fish around in their pocket so I can have a few undeserved yellow smiley faces would not make me feel any better about it

SHHH this is a family friendly forums

Edited June 4, 2006 by geoholic28

June 4, 2006

cripes, i can't even say what i'm thinking, G28! <_<

June 4, 2006

Oops - my 'bad'; didn't mean to say that rules should be 'broken', but that 'RULES ARE SUBJECT TO CHANGE'.

Change is not necessarily a BAD thing.

An Open Letter To Groundspeak

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