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Not Entirely Happy With My Gpsmap 60csx


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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

I went out with my 60CX today to find a benchmaker and did not find it. I even had it on NAD83. When I got home and looked it up, I now know I was better then 70ft off of it. So don't know. For the last week or two, geocaches I looked for, I have been about 60 feet off. With WAAS on. When I first got the unit, I almost could walk with 10 or less feet to them. I have reloaded 2.71 beta, and going to check it out later to see if I get thing in order. Oh, benchmakers are using NAD83 datum. Try that.

AL

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

I just returned, and received a replacement, 60CSx for pretty much the same reasons as you cite.

 

Whereas my eTrex Vista would report an EPE of 40 feet, but be pretty much spot-on to benchmarks, the 60CSx would have an EPE of less than 20 feet but be 50 to 60 feet off the mark. With WAAS, the EPE decreased somewhat but the error increased. I presumed the WAAS issues were due to using the EGNOS satellite 33 but with or without WAAS, my eTrex Vista was consistently providing better solutions. The Vista also locked onto 48 and 35 but that's another story for the other threads.

 

Additionally, I'd mark my own waypoints, walk away, come back to the same spot yet the 60CSx would tell me I was still 100 (once 200) feet or more away - even though the EPE had remained constant at only a few metres. This was in the open with excellent satellite coverage and position.

 

Likewise, there were some occasions when I'd be approaching a waypoint then, no matter what direction I moved in, the waypoint kept receding! In other words, "you can't get there from here".

 

These errors seemed to build with time following a reset but became too frustrating to use the unit. There was also the problem that key presses kept being buffered so that nothing would happen at all then all of a sudden they'd all be acted on at once. There were other problems too, but that's beside the point right now.

 

Despite all that, I really do like the 60CSx and I hope that prior experience with Garmin suggests that perhaps we just got a couple of Monday morning units.

Edited by poohstickz
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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

when you checked your GPSr did you do it with an ADJUSTED bench mark or a SCALED mark??

there is a MAJOR difference in the two. Some marks are using NAD83 for the scaled coordinates and with the same mark are using NAVD88 for the Adjusted coordinates IF they have Adjusted coordinates. Make SURE what the control is on your mark and ONLY use coordinates from an ADJUSTED mark for your accuracy test. the elevation change could be due to an unseen weather change. Just like a plane the barometer in a GPSr ideally needs to be calibrated hourly to be accurate. :laughing:

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

when you checked your GPSr did you do it with an ADJUSTED bench mark or a SCALED mark??

there is a MAJOR difference in the two. Some marks are using NAD83 for the scaled coordinates and with the same mark are using NAVD88 for the Adjusted coordinates IF they have Adjusted coordinates. Make SURE what the control is on your mark and ONLY use coordinates from an ADJUSTED mark for your accuracy test. the elevation change could be due to an unseen weather change. Just like a plane the barometer in a GPSr ideally needs to be calibrated hourly to be accurate. :laughing:

 

Thanks - it was a scaled GPS benchmark, and I had it correctly set to NAD83. My GPS elevation also fluctuated a large bit. I calibrated my altimer to a value shortly beforehand that should have been pretty close. Thanks for the advice. Will try it out on another benchmark.

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

when you checked your GPSr did you do it with an ADJUSTED bench mark or a SCALED mark??

there is a MAJOR difference in the two. Some marks are using NAD83 for the scaled coordinates and with the same mark are using NAVD88 for the Adjusted coordinates IF they have Adjusted coordinates. Make SURE what the control is on your mark and ONLY use coordinates from an ADJUSTED mark for your accuracy test. the elevation change could be due to an unseen weather change. Just like a plane the barometer in a GPSr ideally needs to be calibrated hourly to be accurate. <_<

 

Thanks - it was a scaled GPS benchmark, and I had it correctly set to NAD83. My GPS elevation also fluctuated a large bit. I calibrated my altimer to a value shortly beforehand that should have been pretty close. Thanks for the advice. Will try it out on another benchmark.

 

Glad I could help a bit. :ph34r:

I did not mention before A SCALED mark is one that has been given a best GUESS location by someone in an office in D.C., they look at a TOPO map of the area and give a guess of where they THINK the mark should be by the official description given when the mark was placed. this leads to some HUGE differences as I think you have found out. I currently have a mark that is off the scaled coordinates by over 350 feet. I have to go back to it with a metal detector as it is buried somewhat but the official description has me quite close at this point. It makes hunting for Benchmarks quite interesting to say the least :laughing:

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I will trade you my 60CS!!!!!!!!

 

You're not alone. I'm unhappy too.

 

I purchased my 60CSx from REI. REI has a 100% satisfaction guarantee. I'm seriously thinking about returning my 60CSx and all software to REI.

 

There are many threads with complaints about the 60CSx. Here are two:

 

Version 2.70 Bug

 

60CSx Elevation (read especially the most recent posts on the bottom of Page 2 and top of Page 3)

 

TracknQ

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I will trade you my 60CS!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, Delaypat, I won't be able to return my 60CSx to REI if I have your 60CS.

 

Believe me. The 60CSx has lots of problems. I expect that more complaints will appear in this Forum as the initial "Wow - I can pick up satellites inside my house" wears off, and folks start experiencing the 60CSx's horizontal and vertical wanderings and inaccuracies, worthless total ascent readings, barometer bug, etc.

 

TracknQ

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I wonder if the SUPER sensitivity is making these receivers prone to multipath errors?

 

I mean, if you can pick up satelites without clear view of the sky (inside my steel pole barn for instance) then you have to be picking up reflected signals. Reflected means that the signal is comeing from the building 100ft away instead of directly from the bird. I suppose that extra 60ft could be due to the signal having to travers an extra 60ft getting from the reflection source to your GPS? Maybe these receivers need a way to reduce their sensitivity if not need for heavy cover or whatever??

 

I will trade you my 60CS!!!!!!!!

 

Sorry, Delaypat, I won't be able to return my 60CSx to REI if I have your 60CS.

 

Believe me. The 60CSx has lots of problems. I expect that more complaints will appear in this Forum as the initial "Wow - I can pick up satellites inside my house" wears off, and folks start experiencing the 60CSx's horizontal and vertical wanderings and inaccuracies, worthless total ascent readings, barometer bug, etc.

 

TracknQ

Edited by kb9nvh
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Believe me. The 60CSx has lots of problems.
My CSX has no problems.

I use it since february now and am very happy with it.

The only problem I had was the altimeter problem, and this is fixed since 2.70.

Maybe I have no problems because I don't need WAAS and have turned it off.

By the way WAAS and EGNOS are both not really ready for use until autumn.

The accuracy of my tracks is more than 95% between 6 and 15 feet, and I think that's the most one can expect from this technology.

Neither I need nor I expect more.

Edited by NewZealand
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I tooks some lessons learned with my older Map60C, and use them with my new Map60Cx.

 

What it is, is that I always hold the GPS virtical about 5 feet off the ground, and that is what I had to do with the older Map60C. So many people have compained about loss of signal with the older Map60C/CS, and I found the best way to KEEP the signal is to always keep it virtical and at shoulder height.

 

Improper way to hold or sit the GPS down. Always should stand the GPS up when at benchmarks or when zeroing in on a cache, or even Plotting trails onto GPS for download to places like trailregistry dot com.

 

My friend was using my Map60Cx back on friday while I was using my new eXplorist XL, and he was always holding it wrong, and one time while on a bench he had set it down flat on the bench zoomed way in and showed me the wandering of the curser, which was considerable.

 

When the GPS is held low to the ground or flat, it is going to find and use bad signals in it's position FIX, so it should be held up virtical with the wrist strap around the hand and holding the unit at it's base. when I do this I can pin the GPS unit's speed redout to ZERO at stop signs and traffic lights while on foot.

 

My eXplorist XL has had problems like a 60Cx getting bad signals, in that when I download tracks from the eXplorist XL, sometimes the Tracklog will have wandered miles off, then snapped back, artificially making the Trip Odometer reading quite high, and the max speed, up in the range of a military jet.

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

Well, when the skys are bright and clear, my 60cx has always been within 8'-10' of a privately surveyed location in front of my house. I generally use a Gillson antenna when taking readings out there. But even without the antenna I generally get readings that are less than 15' off. The spot in front of my house was surveyed in with a differential GPS using a nearby triangulation station and the surveyor said accuracy was within 6". Scaled stations can be way off.

 

With bad atmospheric conditions it has been as much as 30' off (actual, not EPE). Heavily overcast days with dark wet clouds are the worst times. Under those conditions an external antenna is a must, in my opinion.

 

It also helps to plan your usage to concide with the best satellite configuration and DOP. I downloaded the Trimble Planning software (free) and generally take my serious readings when conditions are optimum.

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Tested against a benchmark today. It started out about 20 feet off and then got worse. It was off from my averaged (400 measurements) by 67 feeet. The elevation shot up by about 40 feet and was at least 20 feet off. Towards the very end, the triangle just drifted off in one direction like a boat losing its anchor. This was with 9 satellites, a reported EPE of between 10 and 20 feet, and no WAAS. Which brings me to my next point.

 

I know WAAS is in transition, but the 60csx obviously has problems with it.

 

Both the GPS and the barometer seem unstable and jumpy. I'm wondering if I got a bum unit.

 

Well, when the skys are bright and clear, my 60cx has always been within 8'-10' of a privately surveyed location in front of my house. I generally use a Gillson antenna when taking readings out there. But even without the antenna I generally get readings that are less than 15' off. The spot in front of my house was surveyed in with a differential GPS using a nearby triangulation station and the surveyor said accuracy was within 6". Scaled stations can be way off.

 

With bad atmospheric conditions it has been as much as 30' off (actual, not EPE). Heavily overcast days with dark wet clouds are the worst times. Under those conditions an external antenna is a must, in my opinion.

 

It also helps to plan your usage to concide with the best satellite configuration and DOP. I downloaded the Trimble Planning software (free) and generally take my serious readings when conditions are optimum.

 

Accuracy is something not too many people understand and I don't pay attention to all these complaints unless stated by professionnals or people with a scientific, technical background. First of all, you need to measure against a perfectly known location and besides your GPS has limitations and if one gets better results than the specs, it is often just luck.

 

And the first indication of a scientific mind is the use of metric units ! <_<

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Accuracy is something not too many people understand and I don't pay attention to all these complaints unless stated by professionnals or people with a scientific, technical background. First of all, you need to measure against a perfectly known location and besides your GPS has limitations and if one gets better results than the specs, it is often just luck.

 

And the first indication of a scientific mind is the use of metric units ! :anitongue:

 

Just took another reading at my spot and it was 10 FEET off. Skys are clear but hazy and humidity is off the charts (like it usually is here). 9 Satellites were locked and 6 of them were at max height. EPE was showing 8 FEET. #35 was a hollow bar and flicking on and off like it always has been here. Was using my external antenna and I did a 300 point average. The Trimble chart says I will see 12 sats here at 3:00 pm.

 

Oh yeah, the elevation was showing 149 FEET which is 20 FEET off.

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Here's a metric conversion for you:

 

 

Just took another reading at my spot and it was 3 METRES (m) off. Skys are clear but hazy and humidity is off the charts (like it usually is here). 9 Satellites were locked and 6 of them were at max height. EPE was showing 3 m. #35 was a hollow bar and flicking on and off like it always has been here. Was using my external antenna and I did a 300 point average. The Trimble chart says I will see 12 sats here at 3:00 pm.

 

Oh yeah, the elevation was showing 45 m which is 6 m off.

 

I rounded off the converions to integral numbers.

Edited by Timbo
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It also helps to plan your usage to concide with the best satellite configuration and DOP. I downloaded the Trimble Planning software (free) and generally take my serious readings when conditions are optimum.

 

Planewood,

 

Can you please provide a link to the "Trimble Planning software (free)" that you referred to? What's it called? Do you know whether it will connect to the 60CSx via USB?

 

Thanks.

 

TracknQ

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It also helps to plan your usage to concide with the best satellite configuration and DOP. I downloaded the Trimble Planning software (free) and generally take my serious readings when conditions are optimum.

 

Planewood,

 

Can you please provide a link to the "Trimble Planning software (free)" that you referred to? What's it called? Do you know whether it will connect to the 60CSx via USB?

 

Thanks.

 

TracknQ

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.trimble.com/planningsoftware.shtml

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All you guys whining about your 60C(S)x's is making me sick. Sure this is new technology for Garmin and has a few things yet to be worked out. Garmin IS being pretty responsive to these issues, in my humble opinion, and their customer support is industry leading.

 

If you can't wait for Garmin to iron out a few more glitches, take 'em back and get a Magellan. Good luck with that! :anitongue:

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All you guys whining about your 60C(S)x's is making me sick. Sure this is new technology for Garmin and has a few things yet to be worked out. Garmin IS being pretty responsive to these issues, in my humble opinion, and their customer support is industry leading.

 

If you can't wait for Garmin to iron out a few more glitches, take 'em back and get a Magellan. Good luck with that! :ph34r:

 

8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently.

 

From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.'

 

Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing.

 

Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped.

 

Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx.

 

You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers.

 

I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. :anitongue:

 

Respectfully,

 

TracknQ

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All you guys whining about your 60C(S)x's is making me sick. Sure this is new technology for Garmin and has a few things yet to be worked out. Garmin IS being pretty responsive to these issues, in my humble opinion, and their customer support is industry leading.

 

If you can't wait for Garmin to iron out a few more glitches, take 'em back and get a Magellan. Good luck with that! :anitongue:

 

8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently.

 

From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.'

 

Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing.

 

Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped.

 

Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx.

 

You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers.

 

I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. :ph34r:

 

Respectfully,

 

I would agree with just about everything in your statements but Microsoft is not much of a comparison to the Garmin bugs and glitches. Microsoft's new OS will have so many glitches and bugs that by the time they them all ironed out they will be coming out with a new OS. It happens everytime that the Microsoft new OS has more problems than it solves in the old OS with all the updates, fixes and patches

IMHO

TracknQ

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TracknQ, sorry if I posted a little too testily, as you point out everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I'm not beyond whining a little from time to time myself...after all, I started the Elevation Question thread you referred to above!

 

BUT, they did fix that one, and I'm sure in my own mind that Garmin WILL fix the SIRF/WAAS and inter-related signal reacquisition issues, have a little faith.

 

And remember, just the next day or so they re-added the save active track to card feature, AND added the ability to use the card in the unit as a removable drive, not bad after a day of folks missing it, wishing it was back, and wanting a better way to access it than a card reader.

 

No doubt in my mind Garmin lurks in these forums, silently listening to user feedback. And yes, when issues do arise they're worth posting if for that reason alone. It just seems like there's been too dang much Garmin bashing going on around here of late (and no, I don't work for them or deal their products).

 

Yes, my 60CSx isn't perfect, but I do like it a lot, and I'm willing to wait a little while longer for another couple firmware/SW updates that ought to make even Garmin's biggest critics happy. :anitongue:

 

All you guys whining about your 60C(S)x's is making me sick. Sure this is new technology for Garmin and has a few things yet to be worked out. Garmin IS being pretty responsive to these issues, in my humble opinion, and their customer support is industry leading.

 

If you can't wait for Garmin to iron out a few more glitches, take 'em back and get a Magellan. Good luck with that! :ph34r:

 

8mmag, sorry to upset you. I guess you and I just see things differently.

 

From my point of view, Garmin markets products without proper pre-market testing and software quality control. That forces customers to deal with glitches and bugs in products that they paid hard-earned money to enjoy free of glitches and bugs. Garmin excuses its rush-to-market-to-maximize-profits by saying: 'What do you expect? We're on the leading edge of technology.'

 

Microsoft has been beta-testing its new Windows Vista operating system for many months. It's delayed its scheduled market date several times to ensure that all bugs and glitches are removed BEFORE Vista is marketed. IMHO, Garmin should follow this much more ethical approach to marketing.

 

Garmin rushed to wed the hypersensitive SiRF chipset with an obsolete algorithm that it's been using in pre-SiRF units. The algorithm contains about 100,000 sentences/processes that are interconnected. Many of the interconnected processes are thrown off by the SiRF chipset's sensitivity. Little Band-Aid fixes aren't going to solve the many major and interconnected problems in the algorithm. The algorithm needs to be totally revamped.

 

Garmin didn't anticipate the problems that the SiRF chipset's high sensitivity would cause. My guess is that it will take many thousand man-hours for Garmin engineers to design a proper algorithm for the 60CSx.

 

You may believe that Garmin will take the time and spend the money to fix the 60CSx. I don't share your faith in Garmin. I'd have much more faith in Garmin if it didn't dump untested products on unsuspecting customers.

 

I agree that Garmin tries to provide excellent customer service. I'd rather not have to send my 60CSx back to Garmin, which I've done. I'd rather be out on a trail, being able to trust that my GPSr will give reasonably accurate readings, not false readings due to bugs and glitches. I'd rather not have to spend time reviewing forum posts to see if others have had the same problems that I've experienced. :D

 

Respectfully,

 

TracknQ

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How accurate are you with a map and compass?

 

SandyGarrity,

 

In case your question was directed to me, I'll answer.

 

My 60CSx is my first GPSr. Including the MapSource U.S. Topo and City Navigator software, a National Geographic Topo! State-series program, rechargeable NiMH batteries, a NiMH battery charger, a 1GB MicroSD card, a screen shield, and a carrying case, I paid $1,002 for my 60CSx.

 

I had to send my first 60CSx back to Garmin because I was getting +98,422 foot and -4,921 foot elevation readings. The replacement 60CSx that Garmin sent me gave the same extremely wrong elevation readings. Garmin also sent me a 60Cx by mistake. I had to return that unit to Garmin before I could get my second replacement 60CSx.

 

When I stop to take photographs or to eat a snack or to have a conversation, my 60CSx keeps adding distance to my track log, because the hypersensitive SiRF chipset causes significant horizontal wanderings. If I turn my 60CSx off to stop the wanderings, I end up with multiple tracks instead of one easily viewable track.

 

When I take a hike with auto-calibration enabled, starting and ending at precisely the same location, my end elevation is always higher than my start elevation -- sometimes by as much as 80 feet. I call that "creeping elevation." I suppose, to be more correct, I should call that "vertical wandering."

 

The little rate of ascent/descent indicator, in the left lower corner of my 60CSx's Altimeter Page, constantly fluctuates large feet/mile distances, upward and downward, when I'm standing still. I guess that's "vertical wandering" too.

 

When I take repeated GPS elevation readings, using my 60CSx's Satellite Page > Menu > GPS Elevation option, I get similar large "vertical wanderings."

 

When I'm hiking downhill, my 60CSx's total ascent readings continue to climb; and when I hike exactly the same route day after day, I get totally different total ascent readings. From my point of view, the total ascent data field is useless.

 

At sea level, my ambient pressure and barometer readings are frequently 5 millibars apart. By definition, ambient and barometric pressures should be equal at sea level. Others have called this 60CSx malfunction "the barometer bug."

 

With auto-calibration and WAAS enabled and strong satellite signals, my 60CSx has given me elevations at National Geodetic Survey benchmarks that are 60-80 feet too high.

 

When I go through a tunnel with WAAS enabled, my 60CSx will not reaquire satellites after I leave the tunnel. I have to turn the 60CSx receiver off and on to reacquire satellites. I have to repeat the off-on steps when I go through multiple tunnels. That creates multiple track logs instead of one easily-viewable track log.

 

Also, if I am climbing or descending while in a tunnel, auto-calibration does not correct for changes in elevation that occurred while I was in the tunnel. Elevation readings are totally incorrect after tunnel passages.

 

During hikes, I've written down elevation readings that my 60CSx displayed. I also recorded where I was when I jotted down the 60CSx's elevation reading. The 60CSx's elevation readings are always different from the elevation readings that my MapSource software displays in track profile segments for the same locations.

 

I've explained all of the foregoing problems to two Garmin higher-ups. Both assured me that my 60CSx is working properly!

 

I'm new to GPS and Garmin. I guess I'm not yet used to the idea that $1,002 should buy me something that doesn't work as advertised but that may be made to work if Garmin publishes firmware that may work. I'd prefer to deal with manufacturers who work bugs out of their products, with pre-market testing, before taking my hard-earned money.

 

Compasses don't cost $1,002. Compasses work flawlessly. Topo maps work too.

 

Both compasses and topo maps can be trusted to work properly. After repeated and careful testing, I've learned that my 60CSx can't be trusted at all.

 

I hope I've answered your question.

 

TracknQ

Edited by TracknQ
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How accurate are you with a map and compass?

:antenna::antenna::antenna::)

I'm with you on this Sandy :D

 

Anyway I went to an ADJUSTED mark today conditions were overcast/stormy just really unsettled. There have been some real boomers coming through my neck of the woods as of late. The area was a clear view to all horizons, the mark I went to was RZ1552. This is an official mark that sets the border between the states of WA and ID. My 76CSX took me RIGHT to the mark. After making my documenting photos and putting an updated condition into my pda I took a precise reading, at least as precise as any GPSr can. The results were that my GPSr showed the unit WITHIN 2.5 FEET of the official coordinates, along with that the elevation of the unit showed to be just 23.075 FEET off of the official elevation. I do NOT have WAAS enabled and never have, additionally my barometer was not calibrated. Yes I do know how to just have not done so after my last battery change. Is this just luck or a fluke? No it is not, I am continually within a couple of meters/Yards of ADJUSTED marks that I look for. BTW I also have an E-trex summit that was made before their was WAAS and it too has been put up against an ADJUSTED benchmark and was within 6 FEET of the mark. :D

 

For the record I am accomplished with a map and compass due to extensive military training, and having been a licensed guide. As a matter of just plain common sense I would never trust my life in a wilderness area etc to just my GPSr. I look at this piece of equipment just as a way to make things a bit easier but not to replace the knowledge you should have before venturing out.

 

For those of you that micro manage your GPSr you will never be happy with any unit you get. This is not a precise scientific piece of equipment and should not be used or even remotely considered as such. These units are consumer grade and are actually inexpensive compared to scientific GPS equipment. as for the other sensors in these units they of course would not be considered scientific equipment. as far as I am concerned they are there to give me TRENDS in conditions and to let me have an APPROXIMATE elevation, besides being precise is just not possible in something you do not constantly calibrate, move from location to location without constant calibration or just throw on your belt or in your pack and bang around.

 

For crying out loud get real with what you have and how you are using it. :antenna:

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The autoroute also is a little late is telling me when to turn, etc. It doesn't help to be told to turn left "now" and I'm in the far right lane!
Right, this is currently a problem I forgot.

But I believe this will be fixed also soon (it worked fine with the CS).

@ the compass: My compass works fine in the unit. If your compass doesn't (if it is calibrated), then it is possibly damaged and you should exchange the unit.

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Intermountain Angler,

 

I see most all of the same problems that TracknQ is complaining about with my Garmin 60csx.

I do not see how people can use this to pin point geocaches. It wanders all over the place.

I am on 2.70 firmware.

 

You stand still, near where you think a cache might be and it walks away from you up to 100 feet or so with 5 satellites at almost full bars.

 

But I have no clue what I am doing. It is only the 3rd day with a GPSr, total newbie very little experience using this technology.

 

On day one with mine in a wide open field I could get where it "zeroed in" on a scaled benchmark and it was 6 feet west of where I was standing. Then I let it average for 100 measurements and it said the benchmark should be 67 feet north west of it. This was with older software not 2.70

 

This was also with WAAS enabled. Maybe I need to try turning it off?

I need to retest it with 2.70 an see how it does against the benchmark with and without WAAS.

 

It really bugs me that I have a 1GB card to hold stuff and all it can hold is maps and not waypoints or tracks or routes. I thought you would be able to at least store them on the card. Beibg limited to 20 tracks and 50 routes is hard. Even 1000 waypoints is easy to overshoot if you load it with geocaches. I have over 1000 in my 12 mile radius. But lets forget about those limitations for right now. I need to learn how to use this to find things.

 

So I was wondering. What is your secret?

 

Do you hold yours upright (as someone else said you should) or do you hold it level?

 

The compas finder says you have to "hold level" or it does not work at all. But do you hold it up and just read the distance from the waypoint or some other technique?

 

Do you walk in circles around the area to home in, or pace a square grid or just line up and go to it from 100 feet out?

 

How fast or slow do you walk when trying to find something?

 

How should you use a GPSr to find a geocache?

 

Currently I have had better luck just printing out a map of the satelite photo or topo with the geocache location on it from ExpertGPS. That seems as accurate or better than using the GPSr.

 

I would guess some of my issues, other than not knowing what I should expect, is that I live in the woods with 200 foot redwood trees so clear skys are a rarity. I am usually under tree cover when I hike or go cache hunting. But even then it still shows pretty good satellite reception where it has 4 or so and says it is a 3D signal.

 

So what are some "best practices" for using a Garmin 60csx?

 

Thanks in advance for your help. I want to learn how to use this. I read through the manuals and lots of foruim complaints about it but I am still hoping to learn to use it.

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How accurate are you with a map and compass?

:antenna::antenna::D:)

I'm with you on this Sandy :antenna:

 

*****

 

For the record I am accomplished with a map and compass due to extensive military training, and having been a licensed guide. As a matter of just plain common sense I would never trust my life in a wilderness area etc to just my GPSr. I look at this piece of equipment just as a way to make things a bit easier but not to replace the knowledge you should have before venturing out.

 

*****

 

For those of you that micro manage your GPSr you will never be happy with any unit you get. This is not a precise scientific piece of equipment and should not be used or even remotely considered as such. These units are consumer grade and are actually inexpensive compared to scientific GPS equipment. as for the other sensors in these units they of course would not be considered scientific equipment. as far as I am concerned they are there to give me TRENDS in conditions and to let me have an APPROXIMATE elevation, besides being precise is just not possible in something you do not constantly calibrate, move from location to location without constant calibration or just throw on your belt or in your pack and bang around.

 

For crying out loud get real with what you have and how you are using it. :D

Intermountain Angler, I'm new to GPS. Unfortunately, I didn't have your extensive military training or experience as a licensed guide. I relied on what Garmin claimed in its advertising. Here's part of what Garmin represented as true:

 

Refreshing a GPS Standard

 

*****

 

In addition, this unit features
a new, highly sensitive GPS receiver that
acquires satellites faster and
lets users track their location in challenging conditions
, such as heavy foliage or deep canyons. The GPSMAP 60CSx also incorporates a barometric altimeter for
extremely accurate elevation data
and an electronic compass that displays
an accurate heading
while standing still.

 

 

Considered the mainstay among serious outdoor enthusiasts
, ....

I haven't been trying to "micro manage" my 60CSx. Instead, I've been trying to figure out why my 60CSx doesn't perform as Garmin advertised. Using your word, I've been trying to separate what is "real" from what Garmin falsely claimed.

 

Maybe $1,002 is chicken-feed to you, but, for me, $1,002 is a lot of money. I certainly wouldn't have spent that huge sum on the 60CSx, software and accessories if Garmin had honestly stated that the 60CSx only gives 'approximations' and 'trends' and must be 'constantly' recalibrated because auto-calibration doesn't work.

 

Many others, who lack your extensive training and experience, have exhibited the confusion and upset that you ridicule. For example, check out theslowskys' Post #29 above in this "Not Entirely Happy With My GPSMAP 60CSx" thread. Or look at theslowskys' Post #117 in the "60csx Elevation, Anyone ever get elevation '------' ???" thread. Like me, theslowkys is "new to this GPSr stuff." He can't understand why his new 60CSx isn't accurate and wanders so much.

 

Maybe you should use your extensive training and experience to teach Garmin to be more honest.

 

TracknQ

Edited by TracknQ
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I do not see how people can use this to pin point geocaches. It wanders all over the place.

I am on 2.70 firmware.

Unfortunately I have no solution for that. Maybe it's the problem you describe at the end of your posting.

It will not help you when I tell you that my unit works fine (also and especially in gorges or under heavy tree cover, but "my" trees are not as big as yours). :)

Do you use it in "battery save" mode? If yes, use it in "normal mode" under heavy tree cover.

 

It really bugs me that I have a 1GB card to hold stuff and all it can hold is maps and not waypoints or tracks or routes. I thought you would be able to at least store them on the card. Beibg limited to 20 tracks and 50 routes is hard. Even 1000 waypoints is easy to overshoot if you load it with geocaches.
Even with 2.70 you can use the ->Garmin POI Loader. You can load as many POIs to the unit as fit on your SD-card. Just download a POI csv file, or create one by yourself.

Forget the traditional Waypoints, as you mentioned they are limited to 1000 if I remember correctly.

You can search your private POI's by several criteria, and create several POI-Databases on the unit.

I have currently more than 15,000 private POI's on my unit.

With firmware 2.71 you can log your tracks to the SD-card. Currently only for download to the PC, but I'm quite sure for one of the next firmwares also for display on the unit.

 

Do you hold yours upright (as someone else said you should) or do you hold it level?
I just don't care about the angle of my unit.

On the mountainbike it is mounted nearly flat, during hiking it is mounted upright on the rucksack, in the car it has an angle of approx. 70 degrees. It works fine everywhere.

 

The compas finder says you have to "hold level" or it does not work at all. But do you hold it up and just read the distance from the waypoint or some other technique?
The compass only works when it is "hold level" and calibrated. If I think I would need it this day, then I calibrate it once at the beginning, and then turn it off. I turn it on only when I'm standing still to get a rough idea where my next target is.

 

Do you walk in circles around the area to home in, or pace a square grid or just line up and go to it from 100 feet out?
When I use offroad routing, I just let it guide me to the wanted point, looking at the map page. I enabled 2 datafields on my map page: "dist to next" and "turn", because for me this is the most convenient way (others may think differently). This way I know on the map page, how far the next location is, and which angle to the right or to the left I must use to reach it.

 

I would guess some of my issues, ...., is that I live in the woods with 200 foot redwood trees so clear skys are a rarity.
That may be a real problem. Other, older units, may possibly not even receive a satellite signal there. Edited by NewZealand
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Hi TracknQ

 

Thanks for the detailed post. Yes the post was "directed" at you but let me expand it a little.

 

I'm first and foremost a mountaineer and for the last 30 years have used a map and compass only "getting into" the GPS world in the last few months. In the past I have worked in Mountain Rescue Teams so my navigation has had to be good - people's lives have relied on it, both in finding a casuilty as quickly as I could and getting the location to other people and helicopters to get an injured climber back to hospital as fast as possible. Hence, I am a bit cynical about pure Geocasheing (sorry boys and girls) for me the GPS is a navigation tool just like my map, compass, watch and fingers (I need them to count paces between clumps of grass when the visibility is less then 3 m or 10 ft).

 

I have got to admit that I have had none of the problems that you have described with the unit and have found that the +/-3 m has been spot on. Both when checked against a UK OS map and that skill of the navigator of "knowing" where they are at all times. I am running 2.7 firmware and 2.5 software.

 

Garmin should be your first port of call with your problems - my comment was really to highlite that few people are as good as +-20ft with a map and compass. I get the feeling that you want to be able to geocache blindfold and IMHO that would make the game no fun at all.

Edited by SandyGarrity
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Hi TracknQ

 

Thanks for the detailed post. Yes the post was "directed" at you but let me expand it a little.

 

I'm first and foremost a mountaineer and for the last 30 years have used a map and compass only "getting into" the GPS world in the last few months. In the past I have worked in Mountain Rescue Teams so my navigation has had to be good - people's lives have relied on it, both in finding a casuilty as quickly as I could and getting the location to other people and helicopters to get an injured climber back to hospital as fast as possible. Hence, I am a bit cynical about pure Geocasheing (sorry boys and girls) for me the GPS is a navigation tool just like my map, compass, watch and fingers (I need them to count paces between clumps of grass when the visibility is less then 3 m or 10 ft).

 

I have got to admit that I have had none of the problems that you have described with the unit and have found that the +/-3 m has been spot on. Both when checked against a UK OS map and that skill of the navigator of "knowing" where they are at all times. I am running 2.7 firmware and 2.5 software.

 

Garmin should be your first port of call with your problems - my comment was really to highlite that few people are as good as +-20ft with a map and compass. I get the feeling that you want to be able to geocache blindfold and IMHO that would make the game no fun at all.

 

Sandy -

 

I got my 60cx so I could find previously surveyed property corners, mostly in deep woods. For that it has worked flawlessy. I have the GPSr strapped to a 12' pvc pole with a Gillson antenna on top. It has always gotten me to within 10'-15' of the old property stakes. Considering what it would have cost me to hire a surveyor to reflag the stakes, I saved a BUNDLE! All of my coordinates were entered as UTM taken from aerial photos. Many were just a beginning point with a distance and bearing. All of my aerial photo's are 1:5000 ordered from the USGS.

 

I have never used mine for geocaching and at 65 yrs of age, probably never will. But, I'm thinking of getting all my grandkids a GPSr so they can go out with their dads.

 

Not that I really care for what I use mine for, but the elevation given is generally 20'-25' greater than what it should be. Haven't really tested it much for that.

Edited by planewood
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2 questions -

 

Do these same "issues" seem to be happening with teh 76csx?

 

Has anyone recommended that pocket queries output to poi format? OR that gsak should generate them?

 

I am going to play with that tonight. Much better than being stuck with 1000 waypoints.

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2 questions -

 

Do these same "issues" seem to be happening with teh 76csx?

 

Has anyone recommended that pocket queries output to poi format? OR that gsak should generate them?

 

I am going to play with that tonight. Much better than being stuck with 1000 waypoints.

GSAK already does support Garmin's poi, or actually, Garmin's POI loader software supports gpx files.

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New Zealand,

 

Thanks a bunch for the detailed reply.

 

The issue with the POI Loader is most other applications including the GARMON mapsource waypoint manager does not even support the POI loader. At least from what I can tell, you just point the POI loader at a GPX file and it sucks stuff in.

 

I pointed it at a directory that had a few files in it and 10 minutes later it said it imported 11,000+ POI.

I wiss I new what they were from!

How can I list them or delete them now?

How do you do maintenance on them?

MapSource should be able to view them on the map and let you manipulate them but I do not see that ability anywhere.

Totally confused what to do with this utility.

 

 

Well I did do some more testing with the 60csx the other day.

I tried turning WAAS of and auto calibration off and went over a lot of the ground in a car and on foot that I did on a previous outing. THe track that it generated was pretty bad. Much worse than with WAAS and it also seemed to loose satilites of something as parts of the track were kind of inverted on some corners.

 

So for me it definately needs the WAAS to be any good at all.

 

Today I went to a park that had some open area and lots of trees still and it got inconsistent guidance as to where a cache was. First it said 90 feet north then 23 feet west then 120 feet north west then 6 feet from where I was and all of those were within 10 feet of one spot. Kind of hard to tell were to go with that. Also the pointer compass was off when I started so I had to recalibrate it by going in circles 2 times. I feel like such a ditz when I have to do that in public!

 

Then I went to an open field with 9 satilites at full bar.

It took me to within 5 to 6 feet of the scalled Benchmark every time. I could move 1 foot off and it would go from 0 to 1 or 2 feet. Very accurate. But I had to walk a little bit some of the time or it would start to wander a bit. It does not like to just stand still and stay with a constant reading. It will just slowly drift off.

THen if you walk 5 or 10 feet and come back around it is OK for 5 to 10 seconds or so.

 

I then tried to make a waypoint and walk away and return by following the pointer and watching the feet away reduce to 0. That worked OK but would never come back to the exact same spot. Even if I averaged it for 40 samples it was not perfect. But it would come within 6 feet of it pretty much each time. Just a different 6 foot location each time. But not bad.

 

But like aI said it was an open field with no trees for hundreds of yards in each direction and it had 9 to 10 full bars. So I would expect it do be good there.

 

I have also had 2 times were the map page just froze on the last location. So by this I mean I got to a waypoint and then did waypoint goto a different one. And put it on the map page. THen I drive to the new location 4 miiles away and look at it and it is still at the old location! If I flip the screen with PAGE and QUIT so it goes back to map again, it then shows the correct location.

 

I do not get why it does that. It did not say that it lost satilite signal or anything. It just froze.

 

Well maybe some new firmware updates will help if they ever post anymore.

 

Thanks everyone. Please post if you find out a way to make the 60csx work better.

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Here is an example of how the Garmin 60csx "walks" when it is standing still.

 

This image is from a 30 minute stand still, It was sitting upright on my desk.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~svwilbur/wandering_271.bmp

 

Here are the Satellite

 

http://home.comcast.net/~svwilbur/3d_sat_kindof.bmp

 

Is this normal :P ?

 

I expected it to stay in a location and move maybe 10 to 15 feet or so not hundreds of feet.

Or am I reading it incorectly?

Edited by theslowskys
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Here is an example of how the Garmin 60csx "walks" when it is standing still.

 

This image is from a 30 minute stand still, It was sitting upright on my desk.

 

http://home.comcast.net/~svwilbur/wandering_271.bmp

 

Here are the Satellite

 

http://home.comcast.net/~svwilbur/3d_sat_kindof.bmp

 

Is this normal :) ?

 

I expected it to stay in a location and move maybe 10 to 15 feet or so not hundreds of feet.

Or am I reading it incorectly?

 

looks like your results are about what would be expected in the conditions you're in. Looking at the satellite page, you're not getting reception on the lower horizon sats indicating terrain, buildings, or foliage cover blocking reception. The EPE is also fairly high which reflects how the receiver judges the geometry of the sats it can see. With averaging, you could probably get fairly accurate results over time, but you have to expect some multipath type interference. As a general rule, I've found the more "Sensitive" a receiver is, the more likely it is to experience multipath problems resulting in wandering, or significant errors short term with the averaging units (The averaging helps reduce the amount of error over time most of the time). In good reception conditions, you shouldn't see nearly the amount of wandering you're getting. In tougher reception conditions, you're pretty much stuck with errors, wandering etc with a highly sensitive unit, or you simply don't get any reception with a less sensitive unit.

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Thank you Searching_ut

 

I will have to try it in a better location as well and see what it does.

 

I was watching it here a a bit more after that test and a couple times it rang an alarm that

satillite reception was poor and then it really went out of bounds.

 

But the above test did not loose satillites but like you said they I sat not getting some of them.

 

I live on the side of a hill so stuff to the EAST is hard to get.

We also live in the redwoods so there is a lot of clutter.

 

Thanks again.

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Just a quick clarification.... is the new chipset that might be causing problems only in the 60Csx, or also in the 60Cx? Just curious since I'm looking to pick up the 60Cx, and this is one of the few negative reviews that might impact that decision if it's also the Cx unit.

 

Thanks.

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