Bench Mark #

[+Marc & Sue]

I found a bench mark while cacheing with family. The # on top is TT5HF1955. We put that in with no success. So we tried HF1955 with the same result. How do we log this find?

Thanks in advance.

 

Marc & Sue

[+Klemmer]

Hi Marc & Sue:

Welcome to Benchmark hunting!

First, a few words on the markings on the disc you found: Those alphanumerics are known as a Designation (on Geocaching.com) or a Station Name (by the National Geodetic Survey (NGS)).

But do not include the year (1955), and a "trick" is that you always need to leave a space between a letter and a number. So: the actual number to search for is "TT 5 HF". Unfortunately, there is not one with that Station Name on the NGS website (more current than GC.com), in Kansas [yes, I sneaked a peek at your profile].

 

So - unless I missed something (sure possible), or the disc is not in Kansas, the one you found may not be in either database. It happens. There are many, many benchmark discs that are not submitted to the NGS, for various reasons.

 

You might take a browse through our FAQ Me First. There is lots of good info in there.

 

Good luck, and welcome again. You'll find lots of helpful & friendly folks here.

 

P.S. this is the closest I could come: JH0559 in KS, but as the year is wrong, and it's missing the "F", is not likely the one. BTW: The "JH0559" is the "PID" and is the real Permanent ID that is used on-line, but is not on the disc (yeah, confusing!).

 

P.P.S: A little more info might help us point you in the right direction, for example, the Lat/Long coords, if you have them.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[DaveD]

The "TT" designation was commonly used by the USGS for their "Transit Traverse" stations. As so many of you have found out the vast majority of these stations were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. If you can provide me a basic location I can probably dig up the USGS data sheet if you like.

[+Marc & Sue]

The "TT" designation was commonly used by the USGS for their "Transit Traverse" stations. As so many of you have found out the vast majority of these stations were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. If you can provide me a basic location I can probably dig up the USGS data sheet if you like.

[+Marc & Sue]

The "TT" designation was commonly used by the USGS for their "Transit Traverse" stations. As so many of you have found out the vast majority of these stations were never submitted to NGS for inclusion in the National Spatial Reference System. If you can provide me a basic location I can probably dig up the USGS data sheet if you like.

 

Thanks for the reply. The site is in SW Georgia. The grid is N 31* 35.536 W 084* 28.522

 

I've found a few back in Kansas but have never seen one that looks like this one. Sorry I didn't bring my digital with me.

[+PFF]

Hi, Marc and Sue:

 

Since you did not have your camera, we'll do the honors of posting the photo:

 

 

Okay. So it's "nothing fancy". (Geocachers will get the joke.)

 

This marker is not in the database, to my knowledge. Others who have seen it have logged it (incorrectly) at BT2255.

 

Best regards,

-Paul-

[+Marc & Sue]

Thanks to everyone for the help. This is a great forum.

[andylphoto]

 

Okay. So it's "nothing fancy". (Geocachers will get the joke.)

 

This marker is not in the database, to my knowledge. Others who have seen it have logged it (incorrectly) at BT2255.

 

 

LOL Good job digging up that photo Paul! I was scratching my head on how you came up with that until I went and looked at the log for BT2255.

[DaveD]

The data published by the USGS provides the following values for TT 5 HF 1955:

 

Horizontal (NAD 27) = Latitude 31-35-31.68

Longitude 84-28-31.16

 

Vertical (NGVD 29) = 234.174 ft.

[+Ernmark]

Speaking of the USGS......sorry to venture slightly off-topic, but where do you get hold of the USGS benchmark database ? I haven't has much luck milling around their site (but havent done a whole lot of searching either )

Edited June 2, 2006 by Ernmark

[Z15]

Its all in paper form in file cabinets at USGS.

 

I once had that contact info but a WINDOWS crash wiped that out.

 

Hopefully someonewill chime it with a email/phone number.

 

fyi-Its not free, there is a small fee to make the copies and mail them out.

Edited June 2, 2006 by Z15

[+barefootlucy]

Funny this came up - the exact same thing happened to me today. I've been a letterboxer for several years and have only recently begun geocaching. In letterboxing, we don't do anything with benchmarks typically, so I've only discovered benchmarks as I've started GC'ing. It's fascinating to me that there are these little logged identifiers all over the country! I think I'm more interested in finding them than in finding GC's at the moment.

 

So anyway, I was LB'ing about 20 miles from home the other day when I happened upon a benchmark and was very impressed with myself that I knew what it was! I wrote the number down to come home and log it, only to find no record of it. I happened to notice later that there was also a GC there, so I had an excuse to go back and make sure I had the number right. Yep. Number was right, so I started trying to figure out why I couldn't find it, and that's how I found this forum...

 

The designation on the disk was TT 13 TX, and it was placed in 1936. The coordinates of the nearby GC are N 32° 06.552 W 095° 02.640 (to save you peeking at my profile, it's in Texas - but you can still peek if you really want to).

 

Now I understand from the answers given to the OP that many of these things, especially TT's, were never logged into NGS. What I want to know is WHY? Why would "they" go to the trouble of marking all these sites and not keep records on them? Are they notoriously unreliable? Were there just too many?

 

TIA,

Lucy

[+Shorelander]

My understanding is that the USGS, especially in middle of the 20th century, was going strong on their efforts to create large-scale topo maps of the entire US (1:24000 and such). Their monuments were put in to facilitate that. I think they either weren't up to the (N/C)GS's stringent standards or weren't all that useful for engineers building construction projects, so they didn't submit them.

[+Klemmer]

True. Different agencies (USGS vs NGS), different missions, different results. I think that the USGS marks that DID end up in the NGS database were just "overlap" between the different needs.

[+barefootlucy]

So the benchmarks have been in place for quite a long time, and USGS decided to try to use what was already in place to meet their objective? And when it didn't work out the way they hoped, they ditched the plan?

 

Now I'm wondering what the driving force was behind the benchmarks being installed in the first place. I think about this one I found this week and I realize that in 1936 when it was put in, there was only the barest thought of a national highway system, much less detailed mapping!

 

Just curious...

 

Lucy

[holograph]

It's not that there are no records, or that they aren't used, it's just that they aren't in the computer database that is maintained by the NGS. The NSRS database which we use is intended to be an accurate basis to which millions of other survey points are referenced, either directly or indirectly.

 

USGS and NGS are two different agencies. Besides these two agencies there are tens of thousands of private surveyors, local and state government agencies, and other organizations that place survey markers. They are all documented, just not in the National Spatial Reference System. Many will be documented in a city, county, or state office, and many of those are documented on paper, but not in a searchable database. Many others might be documented only in the files of a particular project.

 

Specifically the transit traverse stations are now considered to be of low accuracy. Here's a line from a USGS standards document for the National Mapping Program: "The USGS no longer attests to the validity of the positions listed for horizontal control established by transit traverse (TT) procedures.This control is now considered to be less than third order and should be omitted from complete revision maps."

 

Edit: By 1936 there were quite serious and mature efforts at accurate mapping and surveying. In Texas in particular, the Railroad Commission has a large role in surveying and land records. It's name should give you a clue -- railroads were a primary force in mapping and surveying parts of the west and they established much of the survey along their land grants, and did it in the 1800's. In maps of central Texas and the panhandle, you can see the influence of the railroad surveys in the diagonal grid which crosses much of Texas, contrary to the the regular north-south, east-west grid in most of the western US. The diagonal lay along the path of a major railroad land grant, and the railroads found it convenient to establish the survey grid parallel to the centerline of their grant.

Edited June 4, 2006 by holograph

[+barefootlucy]

Ahhh! That makes perfect sense. The Railroad would have certainly had a need for such a network of location markers. I should have put that together myself because as I was trying to figure out why I couldn't find record of my marker, I noticed that many of the markers in my area were placed along rail tracks and I realized that one reason it has taken me so long to learn about benchmarks is that I don't routinely hang out in railroad rights of way.

 

The railroad in my area, as in many areas, had a huge influence that few people realize unless they are serious students of local history. A little hiking in the area along with some knowledge of all the little dead communities reveals to someone the complex network of railroads - major lines and interlocals - that would have needed good mapping and topographical study.

 

Such a shame my father has passed on - he was a surveyor and a mapreader and a history buff who did a lot of orienteering. I'll bet he could have told me quite a lot about this topic!

 

Lucy

[DaveD]

Barefootlucy - the USGS values for TT 13 TX 1936 are:

 

Horizontal (NAD 27)

Latitude = 32-06-32.71

Longitude = 95-02-37.20

 

Vertical (NGVD 29)

405.424 ft.

[+barefootlucy]

Dave,

 

Very cool - thank you!

 

Lucy