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The Micro Spew(tm) Era


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.... There are plenty of people in the camp that I subscribe to (Micro Spew is bad for the overall health of our game, for a variety of reasons...

Of course, you've been marketing your position pretty heavily. :laughing:

Yes, I have, and as many people have been rallying to the cause as have been telling me to "shut up", so clearly both camps are in play here.

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Both here and in other threads relating to micros, people have been saying that they don't have empircal data to show trends over time. I do happen to have a microcosm of the caching world in an offline database, and I'll share some of the data and the graphs.

 

Background:

Since I've been caching before the advent of PQs and GSAK, I needed something to help me weed out caches for which I wanted to search. So I started a database that I kept offline in Access. I write databases for a living, so this was a cool combination of my talents at work and my hobby. I started with all of the caches in the Chicago area since there weren't that many, and I added to them slowly but sure, tracking dates caches were archived and dates new caches were placed. Now with PQs I keep that list updated once per week automatically, and it takes about 7 minutes from the point of downloading the attached files. So I have a database of ALL of the caches that were ever listed in the Chicago are starting with about January of 2001, and the dates they were listed and archived (if ever).

 

Looking at this data, I can see what caches in the Chicago area were active on a certain date. Here's the data for Chicago, grouped by size, and taking snapshots of the data every first of the quarter of 2002.

 

(sorry for the horizontal scroll)

 

5507550a-2f81-4c33-8def-fe832c0402f5.jpg

 

The rate increase is a percentage increase over the last snapshot of time. I've also got three subgroups: Smallish (micro+small), Large-ish (regular+large) and Other (virts, not listed, "other"). I should also note that this is what these caches are listed at NOW. If the cache had been a regular and has changed to a micro, that won't be reflected.

 

OK - now the graphs.

 

Rate Increases - the dark blue is the "Total" - the entire rate increase of the number of caches in Chicago from one quarter to the next. If it's higher than the blue, it's higher than the combined rate of growth for all caches in the area.

 

Blue is the rate for ALL caches

Red is the rate for smallish caches*

Green is the rate for large-ish caches

Yellow is the rate for others

 

*Please don't read more into the "red" and "green" color choice than just colors. Since micros are what this thread talks about, I chose a color that I would stand out.

 

Here's the entire data graphed:

4c77ec74-0017-4215-b7a2-1d1c1a0d3def.jpg

 

The very high rates for micros at the beginning are due to how few there were. Start with one and add 2, and it has a rate of 200%. So the graph is skewed. Let's max the Y axis at 80% and subsequently enlarge the other bars:

fce071ca-be90-416d-9d1c-4b99486b3638.jpg

 

Interesting - with the exception of the fourth quarter of 2005, smallish caches in Chicago have been placed at a faster rate than all other types of caches, and faster than all other caches combined.

 

And if we look at just since 2003 Quarter 3 (which would have included the crackdown on virtuals mentioned above) and months forward, we get this:

 

a2cae51f-a99d-4d03-b198-d5f6164dbe93.jpg

Again - it's looks like Quarter 4 of 2005 saw an increase in the rate of regular/large sized caches. The spike in the fourth quarter of 2004 also coincides with the point at which the number of smallish caches overtook the number of large-ish caches.

 

 

So take this post for what it says - I tried very hard NOT to draw conclusions with any data, but to just point out some statistical information of a particular area over time.

Edited by Markwell
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Interesting - with the exception of the fourth quarter of 2005, smallish caches in Chicago have been placed at a faster rate than all other types of caches, and faster than all other caches combined.

Minor wording change: the rate of growth for smallish caches in Chicago has been faster than the growth rate for all other types of caches, and for all caches combined.

 

There's a reason that the minor difference is significant: growth rates compound, while simple rates do not.

 

So take this post for what it says - I tried very hard NOT to draw conclusions with any data, but to just point out some statistical information of a particular area over time.

 

Thanks, Markwell. Data is always most valuable in a discussion like this.

 

Here's another data point, also taken from the table: in January of 2004, there were 285 micros and 437 regular caches in your DB. By January of 2005, there were 632 micros and 555 regular caches. The crossover point happened sometime that fall.

 

So the perception that sometime during 2004 micros overtook regular caches is upheld by your statistics, at least for Chicago.

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Minor wording change: the rate of growth...

 

Duely noted. THANKS!

 

Here's another data point...The crossover point happened sometime that fall.

Yep - I edited my post to point that out as well.

 

What I didn't point out is that the 99 caches in the BoB series were placed in October of 2004.

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Thank you Markwell for the interesting data. :laughing:

 

All hope is not lost in the Micro Spew Era... I've seen ammo box under a park bench, large nut jar in a guard rail post, and Regular size rubbermaid inside a lampost skirt.

Believe it or not, I don't think all hope is lost either (if I had, I would have committed Geocide by now, instead of continuing to "fight the good fight" around here). I think by continuing to raise the awareness, we can start reversing the trends back in the direction from which they originally came. At a minimum, maybe we can get more people to focus on QUALITY instead of QUANTITY with their hides (micro or otherwise)...a nod back to the whole New Numbers Game discussion to which this is clearly related.

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We only started caching in March of 2004, so we have either zero or just a few "pre-Micro Spew Era" finds (depending on when the "official" start date really is :laughing: ).

 

But I guess our area is still blissfully un-spewed, going by these stats:

 

Total caches within 20 miles of my zip code (in central Massachusetts): 575

micro: 71 (12.3%)

small: 68 (11.8%)

regular: 370 (64.3%)

large: 9 (1.6%)

other: 28 (4.9%)

unknown: 19 (3.3%)

virtual: 10 (1.7)

 

And our own finds roughly mirror those rates, although many of them have been outside of that 20-mile radius:

total: 607

micro: 54 (8.9%)

small: 74 (12.2%)

regular: 424 (69.9%)

large: 7 (1.2%)

other: 21 (3.5%)

unknown: 13 (2.1%)

virtual: 14 (2.3%)

 

I have seen exactly two lamp-post-skirt hides here. And only one of them is the in "micro" categeory above, since the other was waypoint 1 of a two-part multi which ended in an ammo can on a trail in the woods. We have only seen maybe 4 or 5 guard-rail micros. Looking over our fairly short list of micro-finds, I see that most of them had interesting puzzles, or great camo, or were at very scenic spots.

 

I guess our area won't be in the running as a potential site for Geowoodstock V (at least I hope it won't :) ). But come on up and visit if you'd like a spew-free vacation! You won't find 100 in one day, but you'll probably really enjoy the ones you do find.

 

We recently logged a cache called "My Favorite Cache," which asks finders to list their favorite local caches in four categories: family-friendly, scenic, challenging, and unique/creative. I had a hard time narrowing down our favorites, but going down memory lane to think of them made me realize that we lucky to live in an area that contains a significant number of very high-quality caches.

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Thank you Markwell for the interesting data. :laughing:

 

All hope is not lost in the Micro Spew Era... I've seen ammo box under a park bench, large nut jar in a guard rail post, and Regular size rubbermaid inside a lampost skirt.

Ah, but that goes to the real issue - lame caches. Locations is everything. Just because it's a full-sized Rubbermaid container doesn't make a cache in a lampost skirt a good one. I appreciate your point and being full sized probably makes the find a little more interesting, but most of us aren't trashing micros per se, just the locations where they are being put.

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I just strated cacheing 3 weeks ago. it seem like for every 1 traditional cache there is 10 micro in my area.

 

If this cache 'GCVNHC' that you have found is any where near your domicile then you have hundreds (300) to be exact, of non-micros all 2/2 or less within 30 miles. Perhaps we need a PQ training program. Obtaining this info took all of two minutes. :):huh::laughing:

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Geez, I'd better jump in to this thread! :)

 

OK, here's the story from the Ho(rse)'s mouth:

 

June 19, 2004 was the date I made a cache run over to (pre-Katrina) New Orleans. I live only 90 miles from New Orleans; I've made many runs there. That day, if I recall, I found around 24 caches, and at least 16 of them were roadside tree/rail micros. At one particularly unpleasant one (at an abandoned City Park building with the cache hidden in a rusted lightpole base), I happened to run into my geo-friend AlexM, who was out with his wife KatieM that day also doing a New Orleans run. While chatting we both lamented that it seemed like every cache run to every city was getting to be like this. (So you New Orleans folks, please don't chime in saying I'm slamming your town...we went through that a few months back on another thread! I travel to metro areas nationwide and it just happened to be that New Orleans run that finally "broke" me.) It wasn't that it was JUST MICROS, it was that it was micros that seemed to be placed JUST FOR THE NUMBERS ("Spew"), not for the quality of the locations or the hides. (In fact, my good geo-buddy Bamboozle even commented on one of those other threads that it WAS his and some other locals' intention to get a bunch more caches out there for folks to find, in dense bunches. Since I know him personally, I know his heart was in the right place; I just don't happen to agree with the process.)

 

 

The cache in the abandoned building in question was called Ye Old Clubhouse. It was there my aunt ( a waitress now deceased) served Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Arnold Palmer, and others.) Her favorite was Player because he was so polite and called her Miss Margie :laughing:

This was the clubhouse that was used when the pros came to New Orleans in the years before big money golf....quite an interesting cache ( not mine ) but maybe the description didn't get in to the history enough.

Some of the others Drat visited ( mine) may have been more mundane and were indeed placed so locals and others would have caches to find. My friend Drat and I disagree on only one thing, I would rather see a micro instead of nothing. But if there are very few caches out there there will be no caching activity. Not everyone has the means or desire to travel to distant cities.

Seasoned (paperless cachers) can filter out all 1-1 micros. I've never found a lamp base cache in Wallmart that was listed 2-2. We have the technology to do this.......there is no sprew or white noise.......if you don't like 1-1 micro's DON'T LOOK FOR THEM ! For those who chose to, GO FOR IT.

 

As for my micro's, I would pick up any ( including my good ones :huh: ) if someone wishes to place a full size there.......in fact I wouldn't mind a rule stating that a full size would automatically bumb a micro.

 

It's simple, I love caching and put caches ( all types) where there aren't any. It's done to benefit others and promote geocaching. Screen-out the ones you don't want to find, lock in on the ones you do, and go for it.

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The cache in the abandoned building in question was called Ye Old Clubhouse. It was there my aunt ( a waitress now deceased) served Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Arnold Palmer, and others.) Her favorite was Player because he was so polite and called her Miss Margie :laughing:

This was the clubhouse that was used when the pros came to New Orleans in the years before big money golf....quite an interesting cache ( not mine ) but maybe the description didn't get in to the history enough.

 

What a great story.

 

Seasoned (paperless cachers) can filter out all 1-1 micros. I've never found a lamp base cache in Wallmart that was listed 2-2. We have the technology to do this.......there is no sprew or white noise.......if you don't like 1-1 micro's DON'T LOOK FOR THEM ! For those who chose to, GO FOR IT.

 

It takes years of experience to develop that kind of wisdom.

 

It's simple, I love caching and put caches ( all types) where there aren't any. It's done to benefit others and promote geocaching. Screen-out the ones you don't want to find, lock in on the ones you do, and go for it.

 

A man after my own heart.

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Both here and in other threads relating to micros, people have been saying that they don't have empircal data to show trends over time. I do happen to have a microcosm of the caching world in an offline database, and I'll share some of the data and the graphs. ...

I think you missed the most important graph.

7284e729-2e5f-43d8-9675-2a7f0a6bb5e6.jpg

Here is a graph of 'largish' caches in the Chicago area trended over time, using your data. You will note that the number of large caches has grown rather consistently. Based on this, I submit that micro-spew poses no danger to geocaching.

Edited by sbell111
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June 19, 2004 was the date I made a cache run over to (pre-Katrina) New Orleans. I live only 90 miles from New Orleans; I've made many runs there. That day, if I recall, I found around 24 caches, and at least 16 of them were roadside tree/rail micros. At one particularly unpleasant one (at an abandoned City Park building with the cache hidden in a rusted lightpole base), I happened to run into my geo-friend AlexM, who was out with his wife KatieM that day also doing a New Orleans run. While chatting we both lamented that it seemed like every cache run to every city was getting to be like this. (So you New Orleans folks, please don't chime in saying I'm slamming your town...we went through that a few months back on another thread! I travel to metro areas nationwide and it just happened to be that New Orleans run that finally "broke" me.)

 

The cache in the abandoned building in question was called Ye Old Clubhouse. It was there my aunt ( a waitress now deceased) served Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Arnold Palmer, and others.) Her favorite was Player because he was so polite and called her Miss Margie :laughing:

This was the clubhouse that was used when the pros came to New Orleans in the years before big money golf....quite an interesting cache ( not mine ) but maybe the description didn't get in to the history enough.

FYI, the cache to which I was referring (which also had an interesting back-story, I must admit) was Driving Range: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt=

 

I did attempt Ye Olde Clubhouse the same day ( http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...&log=y&decrypt= ); got "cruised" while attempting that one.

 

It was a lovely day. :)

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I've read all the posts here and in other similar threaded topics. I just have one question:

 

(picture old guy scratching beard)

 

What is the problem?

 

I'm far from being stupid, and I'm old enough to know better, but I still don't see a problem.

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I've read all the posts here and in other similar threaded topics. I just have one question:

 

(picture old guy scratching beard)

 

What is the problem?

 

I'm far from being stupid, and I'm old enough to know better, but I still don't see a problem.

 

That's because there isn't any. :laughing:

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I've read all the posts here and in other similar threaded topics. I just have one question:

 

(picture old guy scratching beard)

 

What is the problem?

 

I'm far from being stupid, and I'm old enough to know better, but I still don't see a problem.

 

With all due respect (I was taught to respect old guys scratching their beards). It's a problem of perspective. You haven't been playing the game long enough to remember how geocaching used to be before the "Micro Spew Era".

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With all due respect (I was taught to respect old guys scratching their beards). It's a problem of perspective. You haven't been playing the game long enough to remember how geocaching used to be before the "Micro Spew Era".

 

Now that's a good point. Someone please tell me what Geocaching was like before the "Micro Spew Era".

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Geez, I'd better jump in to this thread! :laughing:

 

OK, here's the story from the Ho(rse)'s mouth:

 

June 19, 2004 was the date I made a cache run over to (pre-Katrina) New Orleans. I live only 90 miles from New Orleans; I've made many runs there. That day, if I recall, I found around 24 caches, and at least 16 of them were roadside tree/rail micros. At one particularly unpleasant one (at an abandoned City Park building with the cache hidden in a rusted lightpole base), I happened to run into my geo-friend AlexM, who was out with his wife KatieM that day also doing a New Orleans run. While chatting we both lamented that it seemed like every cache run to every city was getting to be like this. (So you New Orleans folks, please don't chime in saying I'm slamming your town...we went through that a few months back on another thread! I travel to metro areas nationwide and it just happened to be that New Orleans run that finally "broke" me.) It wasn't that it was JUST MICROS, it was that it was micros that seemed to be placed JUST FOR THE NUMBERS ("Spew"), not for the quality of the locations or the hides. (In fact, my good geo-buddy Bamboozle even commented on one of those other threads that it WAS his and some other locals' intention to get a bunch more caches out there for folks to find, in dense bunches. Since I know him personally, I know his heart was in the right place; I just don't happen to agree with the process.)

 

 

The cache in the abandoned building in question was called Ye Old Clubhouse. It was there my aunt ( a waitress now deceased) served Jack Nicklaus, Gary Player, Arnold Palmer, and others.) Her favorite was Player because he was so polite and called her Miss Margie :huh:

This was the clubhouse that was used when the pros came to New Orleans in the years before big money golf....quite an interesting cache ( not mine ) but maybe the description didn't get in to the history enough.

Some of the others Drat visited ( mine) may have been more mundane and were indeed placed so locals and others would have caches to find. My friend Drat and I disagree on only one thing, I would rather see a micro instead of nothing. But if there are very few caches out there there will be no caching activity. Not everyone has the means or desire to travel to distant cities.

Seasoned (paperless cachers) can filter out all 1-1 micros. I've never found a lamp base cache in Wallmart that was listed 2-2. We have the technology to do this.......there is no sprew or white noise.......if you don't like 1-1 micro's DON'T LOOK FOR THEM ! For those who chose to, GO FOR IT.

 

As for my micro's, I would pick up any ( including my good ones :D ) if someone wishes to place a full size there.......in fact I wouldn't mind a rule stating that a full size would automatically bumb a micro.

 

It's simple, I love caching and put caches ( all types) where there aren't any. It's done to benefit others and promote geocaching. Screen-out the ones you don't want to find, lock in on the ones you do, and go for it.

 

I've heard rumors that even un-seasoned cachers have on occasion performed that very same filtering operation. Mind you now, that is only an unconfirmed rumor at this time. :):):)

Edited by Team Cotati
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With all due respect (I was taught to respect old guys scratching their beards). It's a problem of perspective. You haven't been playing the game long enough to remember how geocaching used to be before the "Micro Spew Era".

 

Now that's a good point. Someone please tell me what Geocaching was like before the "Micro Spew Era".

Before there were a ton of micros about, you had to drive farther to find a cache, but it was typically a 'regular' sized cache in the woods. After the proliferation of micros, you can either drive a little to find a box in the woods or you can find micros pretty much near wherever you are.

 

That's the difference.

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.... There are plenty of people in the camp that I subscribe to (Micro Spew is bad for the overall health of our game, for a variety of reasons...

Of course, you've been marketing your position pretty heavily. :laughing:

Yes, I have, and as many people have been rallying to the cause as have been telling me to "shut up", so clearly both camps are in play here.

Your post has been bugging me and I couldn't figure out why. I just did. Its because you only see two sides to the issue; micros are awesome or micros are bad. The fact is, most people just don't give a rat about them one way or the other and, therefore, don't pipe up. This is in stark contrast to people like me who have learned to love them through necessity and people like you you have grown to despise them.

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There are a lot of micros and I think anyone who says there is not is just reluctant to see it. I however don’t think they are completely taking over regular caches. As pointed out many times people in urban areas can only hide micros since there are only a limited amount of places for a regular cache. At some point or another, the increase in micros was bound to happen.

 

I live in the country so most my cache finds and hides are regular. But I have 1 Micro cache that I am proud to have even in the country. With written permission a historical society let me place a micro cache on an actual listed historical site. While I’m bias in this example, this to me is a great use of a micro (GCV0RX).

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I don't have any fancy graphs or tables, but I did a quick check on caches in this area, based on a 30 mile radius from our house. The snapshot points of reference used were when we joined geocaching.com and today.

 

On November 13th, 2003 (pre Micro Spew era) there were 8 active caches within 30 miles of our house (one cache was temp disabled, and was archived a few months later.) Of those 8 caches, only one was a micro - the final log at the end of a multi-tour of downtown artwork. Of those 8 caches, the micro is the only cache that has been archived since then.

 

Today there was 54 active caches (I counted in the AM, but during lunch discovered a problem with one of our caches so I pulled it and plan to archive it - so now there are 53 caches) and of those there are 8 micros and 19 "smallish" caches (which includes the micros)

 

I must admit that 2 of our 20-someodd hidden caches are micros. However, in an area where there just are not many caches, I subscribe to the view that some caches (even if micro or small) is better than no caches. The point is, I rather would not return to 2003 when there were only 8 caches. A second point - and this is subjective to my point of view - is that the one micro that was around in 2003 was a better walk and had a better point to it than most of the regular sized caches. Just being larger caches didn't make them better containers (one is a rusted coffee can with no lid and live spider inhabitants) or better locations. On the brighter side, there are now five times as many regular and large sized caches in the area than there were in 2003.

 

One other point... there has never been a virtual cache within 30 miles of our house. I'm not sure what to think about that, but it is an interesting fact.

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Now that's a good point. Someone please tell me what Geocaching was like before the "Micro Spew Era".

From my own perspective, since you asked: :laughing:

 

In 2002, I was a new cacher and there were way fewer caches in my area. I can't recall exactly the numbers, but I'd guess within 10 miles of my zipcode there were maybe 20 caches..... max.

I found most of the ones nearest to me and was satisfied, I was enjoying slowly finding these interesting containers stashed in the woods and city parks of my area.

 

Side note: I can specifically remember one day when a new hide popped up in my "cache zone" and I literally jumped up and down in front of the computer; a new cache was such a supreme thrill. Maybe because it was new to me, maybe because they were so few and far between.

It was an ammo can cache stashed in a park I'd never been to. I forced my boyfriend to hike with me a couple miles out to the cache, in horrible late summer heat, blazing sun, and even worse bugs. Nothing would stop me. When we got to that can, I felt like I'd conquered the world. I went home filthy and stinky and exhausted and totally happy. I can fairly honestly say that wouldn't happen today, but can't pin that on my own lack of enthusiasm or an overabundance of caches. (edit to clarify: Today I'd still want to find that cache, but most definitely wait until it got cooler. I'd wait months now, I couldn't wait a week then!

 

In the fall of 2003 I found my first micro, a magnetic key holder at a great historic location. The micro was cool because it was a novelty, ie: the smallest cache I'd found, and it didnt' have room for trade items. Hmmmm, interesting idea and easy to hide, too, because it is small.

 

Fast-forward to June 2006:

There are 209 caches within 10 miles of my zipcode, and 368 caches within 20 miles. In the 10 mile range, I just counted 107 caches indicated as micro (if everything is listed correctly). That's about 50 percent.

That's quite a few. Not having found most of them, I couldn't say if they are "spew" or not. A few of them I could say "yes, I'd classify that as spew", because I've just decided to bypass them even though I drive by them nearly every day.

 

Reviewing the first 30 caches I ever found, all were regular size tupperware or ammo cans. I'd never heard of a micro and didn't even consider the possibility of one since I thought much the point of caching was digging thru the container's trade items to see what neat stuff the other cachers had traded before me.

 

I can admit to placing micros myself, I've owned 4 of them. I placed my first two in Jan.of 2004, when in my eyes, they were first hitting the scene and were a novelty. I archived one of those 2 a few months later, having decided it was "lame" by my own judgement.

 

I don't really have the itch to hide caches anymore, only 1 I'm considering that would be a large tupperware or ammo can. I've been considering it over a year. Just isn't as exciting anymore, though I wouldnt' say I'm burned out yet. Just not as enthusiastic about caching today when I can drive past caches every mile, mile-n-1/2. It is less thrilling somehow.

 

So there's my book on that topic (man I'm long winded today, bet nobody reads this whole thing!)

Edited by MountainMudbug
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I would have replied sooner, but was trying to read through MM's post. Sheeesh. (Just kidding)

 

Just for chuckles, I ran the numbers, too. When I first started playing, there were four active caches in my area. Three were tupperware, one was an ammo can. Two of the tupperware caches had been muggled or otherwise destroyed and were quickly archived. The other tupperware cache was archived, but not removed. (I went and removed the wet trash a few years later.) The ammo can (my first find) is still active.

 

Fast forward to today... There are 271 non-micros within 20 miles of my home and 240 micros.

 

What does all this mean? There are a honking lot more caches to find than when I started. Nothing else.

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I think we agree, it's the placement, as opposed to the size, that we are not happy about. I am going to have to go far afield to find a place to put a nice big cache because my area is pretty well saturated. So all I have placed are 2 micros. One is for that infernal 101 Dalmatians series. I was disappointed at the quality of some of the placements so I went and adopted one and gave it a good home. The other one is my very first placement. The 2 seasoned, "usual" cache placers in town were both watching that park, unbeknownst to me, and I got permission and got in before them. One even admitted he was just planning to stick it in the fence anyway. I am very proud of the logs I am getting on this cache. http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...97-ceaeede105e4

Edited by Kacky
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I have various thoughts on this matter. When I'm off on a trip, I might be more likely to bag a few spews along the way, though I've been known to hunt regular caches as well.

'Mopping spew"! I like it! Three new spew in Matamoros, Pa on my agenda for Saturday! I shall log them thusly! Not to mention the ones in the gate of the hikin trail. You couldn't do better than that?!?

Guess my more major problem is with meaningless micros. I've got a few micros in city parks with spectacular views. No place to hide anything larger, and placed to bring people to see the views.

Do we need the micro in the guard rail of the parking lot of the pizzeria on Rte 17? Spew. Possibly, what bugs me more are the bison tubes hanging in the prickly evergreens in the manicured parks. The parks are very run-of-the-mill. Actually, rather boring. The landscaping will definitely suffer very quickly. What purpose was served by bringing me to this nice, but boring tiny park? "I could hide a che here!" Why bother.

Big city micros are a different story. I've cached New York City extensively. Very few caches, other than micros. No place to hide anything larger. Bring people to the city. Some of them are quite ingenious! The ones that aren't do not last long.

Virtuals were mentioned earlier. Though most are at least interesting, I've done some very pathetic ones! I think the stupidest one I've done was at a beauty salon named for a Biblical Psalm. Wow! This was extraordinarily boring! The question to answer at this place was "What is interesting here?" Naming a beauty salon for a psalm is interesting? What was actually interesting about that location was the variance between the building numbers from one side of the street to the other. 150 is opposite 425. Not what the cache hider was looking for.

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(old guy scratching beard again - yes, I'll take care of that problem later)

 

I respect everyone's opinion here. I really feel that there is a passion for a sport we love. But again, and I say this very respectfully, what is the problem?

 

In this thread and others, I've seen opinions and I've seen likes and dislikes. They are interesting and well stated, but opinions and preferences are often personal problems, not real problems.

 

I guess that the second cache placed (which doubled the total caches in the world) could be considered spew. LOL

 

I'm just having fun caching. Some finds are more fun than others. None have been a problem.

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Ok, well that took forever to read through. Now for my 2 pesos worth.

 

 

My most recent cache placement is in an incredible location where I could have hid a big ammo can full of great swag. However, I know only three people are going to hike to that cache in a year's time . . . :laughing:

 

I have several ammo can caches out there, but the visitors to those, added all together, don't add up to the number of visitors to an Altoids tin at one of San Diego's Trolley Stations. :huh:

 

I don't know what the answer is to that . . .

 

There are many people who are physically unable to hike those distances, but can enjoy a cache with less of a hike. Rural versus urban. You just wont have the traffic to that one cache. But those who go there will value it all the more.

 

It's not always a numbers thing. Some of us have physical handicaps that prevent us from making those 5 mile treks into the woods......Occasionally I feel froggy and will talk the family into a harder cache trip. Of course, I usually pay for that with being out of commission for the next few days......That being said, I am still one of those bizarre people who will hunt micro spew because I like to get out of the house and walk as much as I can AND spend time with my family. And up until I found caching, none of us really liked going out of the house, much less together.

 

Yes me too. Right now I have a goal to start walking 3 times a week for 500 feet. Pathetic isnt it? My handicap prevents me from walking further than that. And Im sick of it. At least caching gives me motivation to try and walk more, to push that envelope and get in better shape physically. If only my hip and back will cooperate. (Fell down stairs in 92. Osteoarthritis on top of initial injuries (broken bones and nerve damage) makes it harder to walk.)

 

All hope is not lost in the Micro Spew Era... I've seen ammo box under a park bench, large nut jar in a guard rail post, and Regular size rubbermaid inside a lampost skirt.

 

I dont see how regular sized caches in uninteresting places makes it better. Good quality locations, whether micro or regular sized caches, makes the hunt interesting.

 

As for my micro's, I would pick up any ( including my good ones :) ) if someone wishes to place a full size there.......in fact I wouldn't mind a rule stating that a full size would automatically bumb a micro.

 

Oh I would mind very much. I have 2 micros that are in very good areas. They are quite popular and get rave reviews from those who visit them. To bump them for a lame regular cache would degrade the caching experience.

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I have various thoughts on this matter. ...

Different cachers have different views of what is cache-worthy. Some would welcome leaning where great pizza can be found. Others would be amused by a biblically-named beauty salon. Still others may be interested in knowing where the 'boring little park' is. Perhaps they will begin to bring their dog there for a game of fetch.

 

Occasionally, I have to chide myself for becoming too jaded about these things and remain open to the positive in the caches I find. It helps me have fun playing the game and it keeps me from being burned out on it.

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The real microspew era started when people realized you could just ask for Film Canisters and get them for free, and then did so.

 

The official date varies but it's closly related to when all the cool spots that people first think of for a cache are taken and they have to settle for sloppy seconds in where they can place a cache.

 

In a compliment or counterpoint to Fizzy's post (not sure which) another thing that has changed is that I no longer have to range as far to find a cache so I'm not finding and discovering the cool spots nearly as fast as I used too. I can spend a full day in town and never leave the city limits of my town of 50K looking for the lasest round of caches. Needless to say it's not any one thing but a number of them rolled together.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I don't really live in an area that's inundated with parking lot micros, but I really don't seem to see the huge deal. That's not to say I'd go seek them out if they were here. Maybe I'd do so once in a while opportunistically, but it's not my preference by a long shot.

 

I started to geocache for the experience of finding new, interesting places in the outdoors. I'm not someone who really likes to look for a woodland micro cleverly disguised as a pine cone in the middle of a coniferous forest, although as a stage in a multi with a regular sized cache at the end it wouldn't be as bad. I just tend to avoid caches that don't seem like they'd interest me. There's even an "Ignore This Listing" option on cache pages so you can permanently disregard lame micros, puzzle caches that you have no desire to try and solve, etc.

 

As far as the argument that a parking lot micro would make a full sized cache nearby impossible, I just don't see it happening and have seen no examples of thwarted attempts to do so. A shopping center parking lot isn't all that interesting a destination in the first place and the size of a container wouldn't make a cache there more or less desirable for me. If there's an interesting park nearby I'm quite sure a place could be found in it that's more than 528 feet away.

 

I don't like to hide caches just for the sake of hiding them. I want them to take the finder somewhere that I find interesting. That's why I only have one hide. I like to put some thought into it.

 

In terms of comparing stats, which seems to be something that some people can't seem to get away from, there really is no way to compare stats apples to apples no matter what you do. A 21 part 5/5 multi will get you 1 find. A 2/2 regular a mile or two into the woods will get you 1 find. A lame micro will get you... 1 find! That sort of disparity existed before the proliferation of micros in some areas, due to the differences in various caches. The experience, the difficulty, the enjoyment are all intangibles that aren't quantified, and can't possibly be quantified, in the stats. Each cache that you find and is listed on gc.com is a find as far as stats are concerned.

 

If some people think that driving around all day and finding as many film canisters stuck in parking lot light poles is fun, let them have it. I can't say I'd probably be joining in, since that's not what I do this for. I don't think that could possibly compare to this, this, or this.

 

I may finally get to 100 by the end of the year. I may not. What I do know, is whatever caches I find along the way will be enjoyable to me, and that's what really matters.

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Doing Drat's route from June 19, 2004 on foot (although not Bamboozle's preferred method ;-) ) would definitely be more interesting and fulfilling.

 

I did eight on Monday in nearby suburban Kenner - and only parked twice. Life (and caching) can be more enjoyable out walking instead of spending time getting in and out of the car.

 

Many caches can be improved, but if people would just try view the micros more like many view those long-hike ammo cans and less like stops on a Christmas shopping trip, they would probably be a lot happier; remember it's the journey, not the destination.

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By the way, I'm not a micro hater, as the locals are well aware. I just think this is a fun topic to discuss. :P

 

Drat19 declared earlier that June 19, 2004 is the beginning of the Micro Spew era. This is around the time waypoints were GCJQxx so I offer an alternate definition - GCJ000 (3/23/2004) or GCK000 (7/14/2004).

 

I found my first three caches on March 7, 2004 although I didn't sign up until July 31, 2004. I did sign the log on those three, though!

 

My Summary of Pre-Micro Spew stats:

- 0 finds officially before 6/19/2004.

- 3 finds unofficially + 1 more that I'm not sure if I signed the log (2000' elevation gain to double check)

- few more unofficial & unsigned "cheats" as a spotter - I did leave my fingerprints on the containers! :anibad:

- 1120+ finds of caches placed on or before 6/19/2004 (not exact, since I'm using an old My Finds PQ)

- 330+ of those were Micros (not exact)

 

This is based on 2700+ total finds according to the My Finds PQ.

 

I simply used filters on GSAK to find this info. Others are welcome to share their pre-Micro Spew Era stats!

 

So geocaching is all about the numbers?

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I would like to share my view of the micro spew phenomenon. I'll preface with the statement that I agree some micros are totally lame. Now for my view.

 

The urban micro spew is rampant in some cities. But there are some cities that are so large people would have to drive 30 minutes or more to get to a location where they could hike to find a trail cache. Some people live in cities and don't own a vehicle and city busses and subways just don't go to the nearby hiking spots. These people enjoy caching also. If there weren't an abundance of urban micros, they wouldn't have many caches to find!

Then there are some people like me who have severe vertigo and others who have a fear of heights and could never take on those great hikes that are in the mountains. Some people are like my dad who has a serious spinal injury and no depth perception and therefore could never go on a hike, he can't see where the ground dips down or where there is a hole, the whole world looks completely flat to him and he has no way of judging how far from the edge of a cliff he is, unless he falls over the edge. Then there are the older folks; some very cool ones are up in Tennessee, I have been told by a fellow cacher. They have some of the lamest micros out there, but they are quite limited in their physical abilities and they LOVE caching. Since they can't hunt very many of them, they do the next best thing, they hide them. They are OLD and have really not much else to do and this makes them happy and you have to respect the fact that they aren't just sitting around the house watching TV, waiting to die, they are getting out there and doing something!

Additionally, there are many teenagers becoming involved in the game through their parents and I'm sorry to say, but given the sick nature of people in this country and the rate at which people disappear, I would never let my children go out into a park or someplace out of the city by themselves to hunt caches. I would much rather them hunt caches in the city where there are other people around and there is less chance of them being victimized.

So, while I am not foolish enough to believe I can change any of your feelings about the Spew, I just wanted to share my side of the debate. I hunt the micros and the traditionals in my city and it is rare that I am disappointed. Regardless of the fact that I have fewer than 100 finds, I am learning many things about the city I live in, I have met new people that are flipping sweet, and I am having fun.

 

So, that's my opinion on the subject, very different from most of those posted, but I respect your views nonetheless.

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I completely understand the argument of those that are opposed to Micro Spew™. An area can become, and in some have been, overrun with micros. Micros should not be placed in any and all locations just because you want to place a cache. The cache should match its environment and its purpose. When placing a cache the hider should consider the possible places to hide the cache, the muggle activity in the area, and the experience that he/she wants to give the hunter.

In some case, this will be a micro; however this selection of the container should be part and parcel of the selection of the hide site. Selecting the container and then plopping into the first spot you see is doing the sport a disservice in my book.

This does not mean that all micros are bad. If the hide site calls for a micro, then a micro hidden there would be a quality hide.

I personally don’t think that the argument is just that micros are bad. I believe the problem is one of quantity over quality. Since micros are easier to hide, they lend themselves to more poor quality hides unfortunately.

A micro hidden in the deeps woods makes as much since as an ammo can at the base of a statue in the center of town. They are both out of place.

Micro Spew™ in my opinion states that, too many micro hides of poor quality have pushed out the possibility of a cache of good quality, by means of the large quantity. Cache overpopulation would not be a problem if caches of good quality were hidden at each location.

 

As another point not all areas have the problem of Micro Spew™. In many rural areas it has not yet reared its ugly head. I count myself luckily to live in such a place. However there are some of the caches here that are regular caches, of the traditional type, that were placed merely to place a cache. It’s nice to have a cache any type in such a cache light area, yet this shows that even regular caches can be a problem if we allow the quality to slip.

 

It’s is the ease with which micros can be and have been hidden that has lead to this problem. I don’t blame the micro. I blame the lazy cacher that hid the low quality cache.

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The urban micro spew is rampant in some cities. But there are some cities that are so large people would have to drive 30 minutes or more to get to a location where they could hike to find a trail cache. Some people live in cities and don't own a vehicle and city busses and subways just don't go to the nearby hiking spots. These people enjoy caching also. If there weren't an abundance of urban micros, they wouldn't have many caches to find!

Then there are some people like me who have severe vertigo and others who have a fear of heights and could never take on those great hikes that are in the mountains. Some people are like my dad who has a serious spinal injury and no depth perception and therefore could never go on a hike, he can't see where the ground dips down or where there is a hole, the whole world looks completely flat to him and he has no way of judging how far from the edge of a cliff he is, unless he falls over the edge....SNIP....

 

Your're confusing micro spew with urban micros. I don't think many geocachers have a quarrel with micros, even in urban areas. In fact they are often the only kind of cache you can hide in these places. A micro that brings you to a place of interest is great.

 

Micro spew is different. It's the placing of numerous micros in areas with no redeeming value. Next to dumpsters, behind Burger Kings, under shopping mall lamp post skirts, in garbage strewn lots and next to homeless encampments. You can't tell me that city folk and the disabled have to be resigned to nothing but finding caches in uninteresting and unappealing places.

 

All the anti spew brigade asks is that people put a little thought into their caches.

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Your're confusing micro spew with urban micros. I don't think many geocachers have a quarrel with micros, even in urban areas. In fact they are often the only kind of cache you can hide in these places. A micro that brings you to a place of interest is great.

 

Micro spew is different. It's the placing of numerous micros in areas with no redeeming value. Next to dumpsters, behind Burger Kings, under shopping mall lamp post skirts, in garbage strewn lots and next to homeless encampments. You can't tell me that city folk and the disabled have to be resigned to nothing but finding caches in uninteresting and unappealing places.

 

All the anti spew brigade asks is that people put a little thought into their caches.

 

I agree, yet Drat's original "bad caching day" in New Orleans had no dumpsters, no Burger Kings, no lamp post skirts, no garbage strewn lots and no homeless encampments (at that time, the FEMA trailer was not a desirable accommodation). It was a high-density natural power trail of a variety caches around the perimeter of City Park. Not that the caches were spectacular, but they were not SPEW in accordance with your definition (of which we have very few).

 

Regarding the 1/1 Micro filtering - we've been told you aren't supposed to make a cache terrain 1 UNLESS it is handicapped accessible, so you'd probably have to filter out 1/1.5 micro to totally avoid Micro Spew (TM etc.)

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The urban micro spew is rampant in some cities. But there are some cities that are so large people would have to drive 30 minutes or more to get to a location where they could hike to find a trail cache. Some people live in cities and don't own a vehicle and city busses and subways just don't go to the nearby hiking spots. These people enjoy caching also. If there weren't an abundance of urban micros, they wouldn't have many caches to find!

Then there are some people like me who have severe vertigo and others who have a fear of heights and could never take on those great hikes that are in the mountains. Some people are like my dad who has a serious spinal injury and no depth perception and therefore could never go on a hike, he can't see where the ground dips down or where there is a hole, the whole world looks completely flat to him and he has no way of judging how far from the edge of a cliff he is, unless he falls over the edge....SNIP....

 

Your're confusing micro spew with urban micros. I don't think many geocachers have a quarrel with micros, even in urban areas. In fact they are often the only kind of cache you can hide in these places. A micro that brings you to a place of interest is great.

 

Micro spew is different. It's the placing of numerous micros in areas with no redeeming value. Next to dumpsters, behind Burger Kings, under shopping mall lamp post skirts, in garbage strewn lots and next to homeless encampments. You can't tell me that city folk and the disabled have to be resigned to nothing but finding caches in uninteresting and unappealing places.

 

All the anti spew brigade asks is that people put a little thought into their caches.

 

But what if someone LIKES lamppost skirt micros? Oh nevermind, I forgot your opinion is the only one that counts. :(

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