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The New Numbers Game


drat19
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OK, I decided to do what you said. I took a PQ for the 500 caches nearest to my Zipcode and ran it through a niftly little app written by Fizzymagic. Here are the results:

 

Containers:

1 ( 0.2%) Large

69 (13.8%) Micro

12 ( 2.4%) Not chosen

10 ( 2.0%) Other

312 (62.4%) Regular

95 (19.0%) Small

1 ( 0.2%) Virtual

 

The results do not seem to confirm what you are saying.

To either prove or disprove the micro spew theory you would need to take these numbers and chart the hide rates history. ie the total hides per month with the micro hide numbers charted on the same scale. You could then extrapolate the lines.

 

The point is not to prove or disprove the micro spew theory. Its to disprove the idea that there is a "notable market preference" for micro caches.

Was the idea that there was a "notable market preference" for hiding micros, or for finding them? Maybe you'd need to compare find counts (or finds-per-month rates, or something like that). If micros make up 13.8% of the hides, but a significantly larger percentage of the found-it logs, maybe there is a "market preference" for micros. (I certainly hope not, but it could be, unfortunately.)

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It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site in order to log someone's pocket lint.

 

If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned.

 

My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations.

 

We just had a geo-event and were not aware that pocket caches were not allowed. :( We are relatively new to the game, we had gone to other geo-events and seen other players do it. We did not knowingly eluded the rules. We didn't get any "warning", our caches were automatically archived. :rolleyes: I will be glad to delete the logs from those who logged them as pocket if I please can have a chance to acitivate them again, since they are placed in cool, interesting places. I will personally also discourage others from this in other occassions, now that I am aware that is not approved.

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Was the idea that there was a "notable market preference" for hiding micros, or for finding them? Maybe you'd need to compare find counts (or finds-per-month rates, or something like that). If micros make up 13.8% of the hides, but a significantly larger percentage of the found-it logs, maybe there is a "market preference" for micros. (I certainly hope not, but it could be, unfortunately.)

 

Looking at found logs may not provide the most accurate view, either. I've found a lot of micros. I'd have RATHER found larger, more traditional caches, however I don't control what others near me hide, only what I hide. Of my 14 active hides, only 2 are micros. I hide what I prefer to find. However, sometimes I don't get to hunt for my preferred cache size, I just have to hunt for what's hidden nearby. If you look at my found logs you'd think I really love micros, when in fact I prefer just the opposite.

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Was the idea that there was a "notable market preference" for hiding micros, or for finding them? Maybe you'd need to compare find counts (or finds-per-month rates, or something like that). If micros make up 13.8% of the hides, but a significantly larger percentage of the found-it logs, maybe there is a "market preference" for micros. (I certainly hope not, but it could be, unfortunately.)

 

I think he meant both. Still, more finds doesn't necessarily indicate a market preference. Micros tend to be in higher traffic, easily accessible areas. They tend to get more finds because they are good for those looking for a find without a lot of time to invest.

 

I hid lame guardrail micro a few years back. It received more finds than my nearby caches that required a longish hike. I personally know many of the cachers who found my guardrail micro and I know for a fact that they do not prefer those kinds of hides. For them it was more of a "let me get this off my list" thing. Most of the rest of the finders were people who were just passing through and saw an opportunity for a quick find. It doesn't necessarily mean they prefer that kind of cache, just that they were picking the low hanging fruit.

 

I find it hard to believe that the majority of geocachers prefer a film canister under a Wal-mart lamp post over a nicely stocked regular cache at a scenic viewpoint. Or to make a different comparison, that they would prefer a film canister at a scenic viewpoint over regular cache at the same spot.

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OK, I decided to do what you said. I took a PQ for the 500 caches nearest to my Zipcode and ran it through a niftly little app written by Fizzymagic. Here are the results:

 

Containers:

1 ( 0.2%) Large

69 (13.8%) Micro

12 ( 2.4%) Not chosen

10 ( 2.0%) Other

312 (62.4%) Regular

95 (19.0%) Small

1 ( 0.2%) Virtual

 

The results do not seem to confirm what you are saying.

 

To either prove or disprove the micro spew theory you would need to take these numbers and chart the hide rates history. ie the total hides per month with the micro hide numbers charted on the same scale. You could then extrapolate the lines.

 

The point is not to prove or disprove the micro spew theory. Its to disprove the idea that there is a "notable market preference" for micro caches.

I appreciate your determination to argue for arguement's sake, however you data analysis is still seriously flawed. You are analyzing cumulative market history across all currently active caches. This metric is meaningless if your goal is to analyze market trends.

 

A meaningful TREND analysis would require you to look at hide preferences ranked and sorted over time. Go back a year or a year and a half and divide the study period into months, quarters, days, hours, what ever you prefer. The data will show that micro hides are growing. That growth is partially to blame for this thread in the first place.

 

To get back on topic, we can both agree that any smiley claimed without meeting the requirements on the cache listing, i.e. visit the site, find the cache, sign the log, send any emails required, pose for the webcam, what ever, is NOT A FIND, but rather a reflection on the poor geocharacter of the cacher. :rolleyes:

Edited by Exotic Dancer
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I find it hard to believe that the majority of geocachers prefer a film canister under a Wal-mart lamp post over a nicely stocked regular cache at a scenic viewpoint. Or to make a different comparison, that they would prefer a film canister at a scenic viewpoint over regular cache at the same spot.

 

Depends on the time of the year in Florida. Like right now for example, sure you can go for the nice long hike, from ybe completely drenched in sweat within a half hour of setting out, having sweat constantly running into your eyes and get a nasty sunburn (on your eyelids(true story happened saturday)) Or you can drive to the little tiny park and find the bison tube in the tree and stand in the shade, before hopping back in your nice air conditioned car.

 

I definately plan on doing urban/small park caches for the summer (may to november typically), and the hiking ones in the cooler months

 

I love the ammo cans, I also love a well done micro that is a challenge to locate, or has an interesting container.

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We just had a geo-event and were not aware that pocket caches were not allowed. :rolleyes: We are relatively new to the game, we had gone to other geo-events and seen other players do it. We did not knowingly eluded the rules. We didn't get any "warning", our caches were automatically archived. :( I will be glad to delete the logs from those who logged them as pocket if I please can have a chance to acitivate them again, since they are placed in cool, interesting places. I will personally also discourage others from this in other occassions, now that I am aware that is not approved.

 

Finally someone who seems honest in their misunderstanding. This is the problem that has developed...people saw the pocket caches, thought they were fine, and things went out of control.

 

I feel sorry about your cache. If I were you, I would start by writing a note on the cache page linking Jeremy's post, and state because of this you're deleting the logs of people that did not find the cache in the listed location. They are welcome to write notes about the container, or on meeting you, but notes only. Then delete the "finds". Once you've done all of this, write a note to your local reviewer to see what they can do. If you're honest about everything and really do want the cache back listed, there is a chance it will happen. I don't know how good a chance, but it at least gives your cache history a good clean feeling :(

 

Let us know if this works so perhaps others in your situation can also get things back to normal.

 

Celticwulf

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A meaningful TREND analysis would require you to look at hide preferences ranked and sorted over time. Go back a year or a year and a half and divide the study period into months, quarters, days, hours, what ever you prefer. The data will show that micro hides are growing. That growth is partially to blame for this thread in the first place.

 

To get back on topic, we can both agree that any smiley claimed without meeting the requirements on the cache listing, i.e. visit the site, find the cache, sign the log, send any emails required, pose for the webcam, what ever, is NOT A FIND, but rather a reflection on the poor geocharacter of the cacher. :rolleyes:

Well, like several in the discussion I was originally dismissive of ED's first post...the quick comment about the "merket trend" without any supporting data to back it up. However, based on my own empirical, non-scientific experience over the past several years, I DO agree with the statements made in both of the above paragraphs.

 

I would also point out again for clarification/verification that my OP was meant to address all flavors of The New Numbers Game that are affecting the overall condition of our game: The legitimate, but CHEAPENING, of stats (Micro Spew etc.), and the illegitimate, CHEATING aspects (false finds, pocket cache finds, etc etc).

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I am also in agreement with WebLizard. I recently started caching. When going to my first event, I had no idea that pocket caches or temporary caches were not loggable! Since I signed a log book, I figured it was considered a find. Please remember, this hobby/sport/game whatever you want to call it is really getting a lot of publicity lately and there are a lot of new players. Our local TV weatherman has an ammo can in the woods and is running a special series on his weather segments about it and it is drawing a lot of newbies to it. Most, like me, were not around when the only thing to find was ammo boxes in the woods with a scenic view. We thought finding micros - in a Walmart parking lot or not - was just part of the game and so basically had nothing to compare it to. My first Walmart find I have to admit was a bit exciting trying not to be seen, etc... I just thought that was how everyone saw it and how the game was played. Not until I started reading the posts here did I realize that this game has changed in the last few years and that the older players that have been around for awhile may view it differently than those of us just starting up.

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I am also in agreement with WebLizard. I recently started caching. When going to my first event, I had no idea that pocket caches or temporary caches were not loggable! Since I signed a log book, I figured it was considered a find. Please remember, this hobby/sport/game whatever you want to call it is really getting a lot of publicity lately and there are a lot of new players. Our local TV weatherman has an ammo can in the woods and is running a special series on his weather segments about it and it is drawing a lot of newbies to it. Most, like me, were not around when the only thing to find was ammo boxes in the woods with a scenic view. We thought finding micros - in a Walmart parking lot or not - was just part of the game and so basically had nothing to compare it to. My first Walmart find I have to admit was a bit exciting trying not to be seen, etc... I just thought that was how everyone saw it and how the game was played. Not until I started reading the posts here did I realize that this game has changed in the last few years and that the older players that have been around for awhile may view it differently than those of us just starting up.

Thank you for validating what I (and other "old timers") have been saying for the past couple years...the Micro Spew explosion has caused newcomers to think that "this is what the game is". So not only has it cheapened the stats (this thread's original intent), but it has also changed what was the original character of our game (which I've carped about on countless other threads).

 

(edit: sp.)

Edited by drat19
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It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site in order to log someone's pocket lint.

 

If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned.

 

My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations.

You know I think you may have lost touch with the "game" yourself..... I attended the Geowoodstock but didn't participate in the "portable" caches involved with the event but didn't have a problem with those that did. Out of the 700 (+ / -) cacher's at the event not a single person bitched about the caches and it completed one of the main goals of geocaching...... the journey and discovering new locations..... Don't tell me that the folks from Jacksonville Florida didn't have a journey to get to Texas or the crew from Germany didn't see NEW locations when they arrived in America. If it's not about the numbers then what exactly is it about? Why are we archiving caches that "may" have been at the Geowoodstock event if it wasn't about the numbers? I can't imagine 700 people trying to locate the handful of caches at the State Park itself (or the distruction that would be caused to the eco-system)..... it would be rediculous to expect it. Jeremy, I've had a lot of respect for "the group" in the past (things may have been said by some I didn't agree with but I went on) and plan on sticking with the game in the future but if we are to continue to have events like this then there needs to be a FIX for the issue so it's NOT a circumvention of the system. The "powers that be" need to really look at what they are doing to the game if they arbitrarily archive caches just because someone took it to an event so they could get to know other cacher's that's purely rediculous. Come on..... It's merely a game!
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I am also in agreement with WebLizard. I recently started caching. When going to my first event, I had no idea that pocket caches or temporary caches were not loggable! Since I signed a log book, I figured it was considered a find. Please remember, this hobby/sport/game whatever you want to call it is really getting a lot of publicity lately and there are a lot of new players. Our local TV weatherman has an ammo can in the woods and is running a special series on his weather segments about it and it is drawing a lot of newbies to it. Most, like me, were not around when the only thing to find was ammo boxes in the woods with a scenic view. We thought finding micros - in a Walmart parking lot or not - was just part of the game and so basically had nothing to compare it to. My first Walmart find I have to admit was a bit exciting trying not to be seen, etc... I just thought that was how everyone saw it and how the game was played. Not until I started reading the posts here did I realize that this game has changed in the last few years and that the older players that have been around for awhile may view it differently than those of us just starting up.

Thank you for validating what I (and other "old timers") have been saying for the past couple years...the Micro Spew explosion has caused newcomers to think that "this is what the game is". So not only has it cheapened the stats (this thread's original intent), but it has also changed what was the original character of our game (which I've carped about on countless other threads).

 

(edit: sp.)

I hear ya. Just try to understand that all people who are new to this should not be labeled as cheating or pumping up their numbers, rather they are out there picking up the caches that they find listed. Maybe some like lots of micros - so what? I know you have found some, we all have. I don't hold it against you or anybody else - let them play the game. In the end, when you get home after a day of caching, your experience is what matters. I think THAT was the original intention of the game. To get people out to have fun, micros or not.

Edited by lonesumdove
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The "powers that be" need to really look at what they are doing to the game if they arbitrarily archive caches just because someone took it to an event so they could get to know other cacher's that's purely rediculous. Come on..... It's merely a game!

 

That makes little sense to me.

Why does a person need to log a temporary, moving cache at an event to get to know someone else? That is not a justification. You can easily meet and have fun without this weird aspect of the activities.

 

Archiving a cache that someone is toting around the country with them, when it is listed online as supposed to be at XXXXX coordinates, is hardly arbitrary.

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(6) Reaching the hide area and finding the cache apparently missing, and claiming a Find (cheating)

This one is up to the cache owner. I don't mind doing this as if the person is a know good cacher and verifies the cache is gone then I'll let them claim the cache. I hate to waste gas and have to return to a cache that gets replaced. But some folks don't find it so o'well. It us up to the owner.

cheers

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The "powers that be" need to really look at what they are doing to the game if they arbitrarily archive caches just because someone took it to an event so they could get to know other cacher's that's purely rediculous. Come on..... It's merely a game!

 

That makes little sense to me.

Why does a person need to log a temporary, moving cache at an event to get to know someone else? That is not a justification. You can easily meet and have fun without this weird aspect of the activities.

 

Archiving a cache that someone is toting around the country with them, when it is listed online as supposed to be at XXXXX coordinates, is hardly arbitrary.

Did you go to the Geowoodstock event? I don't remember seeing you there? This only makes little sense if you care about the numbers..... I don't. If you have been to ANY event you would know that icebreakers are needed. You might, but I don't just walk into a campsite and start a conversation with a stranger. As for the logging...... What does it matter? GC.com can make some sort of "allowance" for a limited number of caches being brought to an event for logging if they wanted to. Then we wouldn't have people whining over "spilt milk" (or moved caches). Fix the game not the players!
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Thank you for validating what I (and other "old timers") have been saying for the past couple years...the Micro Spew explosion has caused newcomers to think that "this is what the game is". So not only has it cheapened the stats (this thread's original intent), but it has also changed what was the original character of our game (which I've carped about on countless other threads).

 

(edit: sp.)

 

Ok, call me dense, call me stupid, call me Ray, call me Jay, call me Johnson if you like. I just don't understand how finding one type of cache "cheapens" finding [1] any other type. Aside from the obvious, what's the difference in a micro (or non-trade item sized container) cache and an ammo can (or trade item sized container)?

 

Personal opinions and caching style aside, explain this please.

 

Please, keep in mind that I understand the ideal is to use the largest sized container possible whenever possible, but some places just aren't suited for a large container.

 

[1] Finding= placing hands on, signing the log, etc.

 

edit: clarification of "finding"

Edited by ranger-rob
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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone at a party who happened to have printed out the flyer from last year's marathon :rolleyes: Would you expect the NY Marathon commitee to change the rules so you can say you finished just because it helps your social life?

 

EDITED: to make a little more sense.... maybe :( .

Edited by Cache Heads
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I am also in agreement with WebLizard. I recently started caching. When going to my first event, I had no idea that pocket caches or temporary caches were not loggable! Since I signed a log book, I figured it was considered a find. Please remember, this hobby/sport/game whatever you want to call it is really getting a lot of publicity lately and there are a lot of new players. Our local TV weatherman has an ammo can in the woods and is running a special series on his weather segments about it and it is drawing a lot of newbies to it. Most, like me, were not around when the only thing to find was ammo boxes in the woods with a scenic view. We thought finding micros - in a Walmart parking lot or not - was just part of the game and so basically had nothing to compare it to. My first Walmart find I have to admit was a bit exciting trying not to be seen, etc... I just thought that was how everyone saw it and how the game was played. Not until I started reading the posts here did I realize that this game has changed in the last few years and that the older players that have been around for awhile may view it differently than those of us just starting up.

Thank you for validating what I (and other "old timers") have been saying for the past couple years...the Micro Spew explosion has caused newcomers to think that "this is what the game is". So not only has it cheapened the stats (this thread's original intent), but it has also changed what was the original character of our game (which I've carped about on countless other threads).

 

(edit: sp.)

I hear ya. Just try to understand that all people who are new to this should not be labeled as cheating or pumping up their numbers, rather they are out there picking up the caches that they find listed. Maybe some like lots of micros - so what? I know you have found some, we all have. I don't hold it against you or anybody else - let them play the game. In the end, when you get home after a day of caching, your experience is what matters. I think THAT was the original intention of the game. To get people out to have fun, micros or not.

That's a fair counterpoint; I can't refute your points. :rolleyes:

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While in the shower just now I was thinking about our discussions in the forums regarding the world of caching today and my own cache run yesterday, and I had an epiphany. I've really been cheating myself in the limited way I play caching. I think I've been convinced to change my mind.

 

Yesterday I went out on a solo cache hunt. It has been a while since I've been out there and I've had the itch to go lately, so there I went. Printed out info on 10 caches, drove up to 7 of them, actually attempted 4 of them, found 3 of them (decided to abandon 1 search due to muggles). It was about 92 degrees, I got pretty dang hot just standing around pretending to look at other stuff while the muggles were there (I'm a muggle magnet, so sometimes this takes a while). By the end of the afternoon, I was literally soaked with sweat and really beat even though they were all park and grabs. I spent several hours and went 34 miles on the drive around town.

 

What I realized today is that I did that the hard way, and I definitely am an easy way kind of gal.

I am going to host an event called "Head 'Em Up, Move 'Em Out!".

All local cachers who attend (and anyone else will be welcomed, of course!) should temporarily disable any caches they would like to share, and bring the containers and printed listings to the event meeting. It will be a great ice breaker for the new geocachers in the area to get to know each other and find a few caches to get some caching experience, and I can rack up a few more finds myself without having to drive all over town (gas is so expensive now, it is really ridiculous!). We can do this from the air-conditioned comfort of the table next to the pizza buffet (I am definitely a pizza kind of gal).

The best part is, after the event I will now know much more information about the caches in my area that I haven't find in the wild yet cause I logged them at the event. Now that I know what the containers look like it will be much easier for me to find them and log them again after the event, when it gets cooler in the fall and I go find them the way the owner originally intended for me to find them.

It truly is the best of both worlds, I can't believe I was blind to the benefits before but I've come around and I can't wait to start planning my first event, I hope everyone enjoys it!

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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :rolleyes:

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.
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Did you go to the Geowoodstock event? I don't remember seeing you there? This only makes little sense if you care about the numbers..... I don't. If you have been to ANY event you would know that icebreakers are needed. You might, but I don't just walk into a campsite and start a conversation with a stranger. As for the logging...... What does it matter? GC.com can make some sort of "allowance" for a limited number of caches being brought to an event for logging if they wanted to. Then we wouldn't have people whining over "spilt milk" (or moved caches). Fix the game not the players!

 

I for one care about certain numbers...mine, and two other people I cache with that I'm trying to keep up with. But for events, icebreakers ARE needed, but why does anyone NEED anything more to log but the event itself? We've got monthly breakfast events around here that get local cachers together meeting each other, and then we break apart afterwards and some go caching and some go home, depends on what people feel like doing. The event is there to meet, the smiley is for the one event, any other smileys I want that day I go and hike out to find live GC logable caches.

 

I've also done an event called a "poker run" where there were 7 temps located around our metro area. They were placed not per GC guidelines because they were too near live caches. This was done so, during the event, people that hadn't logged those live caches could do so to get their extra smileys for the day if they liked. Everyone that participated had a great time and we all got ONE smiley, even though we found at least 5 caches (almost everyone found all 7). They were temps as part of the event...I deserved the one smiley because I participated in the event, but other than that, why would I need more?

 

Ice breakers are great, but logging them as "finds" is the issue. If I bring a game of Jenga along to be an icebreaker, do we log the event twice because you played Jenga? :rolleyes:

 

Just my thoughts

Celticwulf

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Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

 

Actually, they're archiving caches that don't meet the guidelines of this site. Why are people getting upset that they're being told they can't post 5000 "finds" for caches that aren't listed on this site?

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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :rolleyes:

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

But they didn't find it at the coords for the cache they say they found! It's some fake set of coords that was never approved by the people running the game! But like you said, it's a game..... so whatever :(

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While in the shower just now I was thinking about our discussions in the forums regarding the world of caching today and my own cache run yesterday, and I had an epiphany. I've really been cheating myself in the limited way I play caching. I think I've been convinced to change my mind.

 

Yesterday I went out on a solo cache hunt. It has been a while since I've been out there and I've had the itch to go lately, so there I went. Printed out info on 10 caches, drove up to 7 of them, actually attempted 4 of them, found 3 of them (decided to abandon 1 search due to muggles). It was about 92 degrees, I got pretty dang hot just standing around pretending to look at other stuff while the muggles were there (I'm a muggle magnet, so sometimes this takes a while). By the end of the afternoon, I was literally soaked with sweat and really beat even though they were all park and grabs. I spent several hours and went 34 miles on the drive around town.

 

What I realized today is that I did that the hard way, and I definitely am an easy way kind of gal.

I am going to host an event called "Head 'Em Up, Move 'Em Out!".

All local cachers who attend (and anyone else will be welcomed, of course!) should temporarily disable any caches they would like to share, and bring the containers and printed listings to the event meeting. It will be a great ice breaker for the new geocachers in the area to get to know each other and find a few caches to get some caching experience, and I can rack up a few more finds myself without having to drive all over town (gas is so expensive now, it is really ridiculous!). We can do this from the air-conditioned comfort of the table next to the pizza buffet (I am definitely a pizza kind of gal).

The best part is, after the event I will now know much more information about the caches in my area that I haven't find in the wild yet cause I logged them at the event. Now that I know what the containers look like it will be much easier for me to find them and log them again after the event, when it gets cooler in the fall and I go find them the way the owner originally intended for me to find them.

It truly is the best of both worlds, I can't believe I was blind to the benefits before but I've come around and I can't wait to start planning my first event, I hope everyone enjoys it!

Good Luck on that.... GC will archive the caches! Edited by texastracker
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There's actually a very good reason to be concerned. What keeps the sport going for many people is the social aspects, meeting and knowing your area cachers. If some of them strut around saying "look what I did", when in fact they didn't really do squat, then it divides the community.

 

if numbers padders don't plan to brag about what they've 'done', why do they do it?

 

 

I had a friend a while back that bragged about "having" 21 women for his 21st birthday. Didn't bother me or make him less of a friend. He just proved he was full of it. Still a good friend, just squirrely.

 

So someone brags about their stats. So what? Is that anything to divide over? we're all squirrels in one way or another. Squirrels make good friends too. (as long as you don't try to get their nuts) :(

 

Wow, I predict a heart attack on his 50th birthday :rolleyes::(

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Did you go to the Geowoodstock event? I don't remember seeing you there? This only makes little sense if you care about the numbers..... I don't. If you have been to ANY event you would know that icebreakers are needed. You might, but I don't just walk into a campsite and start a conversation with a stranger. As for the logging...... What does it matter? GC.com can make some sort of "allowance" for a limited number of caches being brought to an event for logging if they wanted to. Then we wouldn't have people whining over "spilt milk" (or moved caches). Fix the game not the players!

 

You didn't notice me there? I was the one in the that hot pink polka-dot bikini, standing under that tree, not loggin pocket caches! :rolleyes: Just kidding, don't get bunched up

Seriously though, I have been to an event before. I met other cachers by saying stuff like, "Hi, I'm MountainMudbug! Are you a cacher? What's your handle? Ohhhh I finally get to meet you! I loved your ______ cache, that hide was awesome, I've never seen one like that before!"

"Hi, you're a cacher, too? I don't recognize your handle, are you a new player? Oh, you're not new, you're from _____ city, wow you drove a long way! Thanks for coming!"

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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :(

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

 

I wasn't at GW4, so maybe you can help me understand this...

 

The coordinates for the caches at the various campsites...they were posted WHERE?

Not on the webpage for the cache that is in Iraq. Not on the page for the Florida cache that made it's way to Texas... :rolleyes:

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Thank you for validating what I (and other "old timers") have been saying for the past couple years...the Micro Spew explosion has caused newcomers to think that "this is what the game is". So not only has it cheapened the stats (this thread's original intent), but it has also changed what was the original character of our game (which I've carped about on countless other threads).

 

(edit: sp.)

 

Ok, call me dense, call me stupid, call me Ray, call me Jay, call me Johnson if you like. I just don't understand how finding one type of cache "cheapens" finding [1] any other type. Aside from the obvious, what's the difference in a micro (or non-trade item sized container) cache and an ammo can (or trade item sized container)?

 

Personal opinions and caching style aside, explain this please.

 

Please, keep in mind that I understand the ideal is to use the largest sized container possible whenever possible, but some places just aren't suited for a large container.

 

[1] Finding= placing hands on, signing the log, etc.

 

edit: clarification of "finding"

My opinion: Finds of micros in and of themselves are stats equally valid to any other stats. However, being able to snag 20 an hour in a metro area Spewed with them are "cheap". Yes, they're valid (a container was located, a log was signed), but how do they compare with similar stats gathered before the Spew Era? That's my opinion. And yet again: THIS ONLY MATTERS IF STATS MATTER TO YOU. If you don't care to compare your stats to others', this is a moot discussion. (How many times do I have to keep qualifying this with that statement?)

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Actually, I wanted to add something. From what I can tell, it sounds like there were a TON of people at GW4, and yet only a small percentage of those decided that they would log "finds" on pocket caches, temps, etc. It also sounds like it was a great place to meet and hang out with people...and I would expect most of the discussion here was NOT taking place there, because live face to face cachers tend to talk more about their favorite caches, and I really don't think either the DRR or Temps would have many "great caches" to talk about.

 

From what I've seen from people who WERE at the event and didn't participate in what has become "questionable" activities had a great time, and it's something I would not mind checking out next year if I have time. I'd be perfectly happy being there, hanging out with cacher's I've read about only in forum posts (haven't gotten outside MN much to see names) and checking out other styles of hides, either containers or temps. It would be one great mega-event which even has it's own icon (I'll admit to being a bit of an icon buff :rolleyes: ) and I'd get my one smiley. If I wanted more, I'd run out and find live caches, and try to get more states (than my 3 currently :( ). I feel bad for those that seem to believe that, just because a few people are bending the rules into celtic knotwork, that everyone at the event felt the same way.

 

It would be nice to hope that, with the lessons learned from this GW, the next would be better and people would be more reasonable about thier expectations. To me, GW4 would have been a great gathering to meet TONS of great geocachers from around the world...who needs tons of smileys on their profile when you've got that one that says "I was there, I met tons of people, I have the memories to prove it"?

 

Celticwulf

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Did you go to the Geowoodstock event? I don't remember seeing you there? This only makes little sense if you care about the numbers..... I don't. If you have been to ANY event you would know that icebreakers are needed. You might, but I don't just walk into a campsite and start a conversation with a stranger. As for the logging...... What does it matter? GC.com can make some sort of "allowance" for a limited number of caches being brought to an event for logging if they wanted to. Then we wouldn't have people whining over "spilt milk" (or moved caches). Fix the game not the players!

 

You didn't notice me there? I was the one in the that hot pink polka-dot bikini, standing under that tree, not loggin pocket caches! :rolleyes: Just kidding, don't get bunched up

Seriously though, I have been to an event before. I met other cachers by saying stuff like, "Hi, I'm MountainMudbug! Are you a cacher? What's your handle? Ohhhh I finally get to meet you! I loved your ______ cache, that hide was awesome, I've never seen one like that before!"

"Hi, you're a cacher, too? I don't recognize your handle, are you a new player? Oh, you're not new, you're from _____ city, wow you drove a long way! Thanks for coming!"

Not getting "Bunched up" just don't understand the Hoopla!
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So I decided to try another place. I picked Boulder Co, another fairly densely populated city. City usually = micros, right? Wrong. Though the number is now higher, micros are still in the minority:

 

Containers:

12 ( 2.4%) Large

221 (44.2%) Micro

15 ( 3.0%) Not chosen

16 ( 3.2%) Other

150 (30.0%) Regular

75 (15.0%) Small

11 ( 2.2%) Virtual

 

OK, three urban/suburban areas where micros were still in the minority. So lets try another on the left coast. Sacramento!!

 

Containers:

12 ( 2.4%) Large

221 (44.2%) Micro

15 ( 3.0%) Not chosen

16 ( 3.2%) Other

150 (30.0%) Regular

75 (15.0%) Small

11 ( 2.2%) Virtual

 

Hmmmm, still nothing to support your statement. So next I picked Provo Ut. Just because.

 

odd that these two areas have EXACTLY the same statistics. :(

 

(I'm sure you didn't do that on purpose, but I had to point it out)

 

I bet that's a common "mistake" in a LOT of statistics :(

 

OBTW there WERE more micros than regulars there. Doesn't that at least SORTA support the argument you're trying to refute?

 

And while not a majority, a VERY clear plurality in several of those cases.

 

However, if the point Brian is making (and it seems to be) is that there AREN'T a lot of micros out there, then what the carp is everyone complaining about? Either they're there, because the people want them, or they aren't, so either way, the anti-micro camp really doesn't have a leg to stand on. :rolleyes:

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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :rolleyes:

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

 

I wasn't at GW4, so maybe you can help me understand this...

 

The coordinates for the caches at the various campsites...they were posted WHERE?

Not on the webpage for the cache that is in Iraq. Not on the page for the Florida cache that made it's way to Texas... :(

The coordinates were posted on an event board for the weekend. Most of us don't carry laptops with us to events to arbitrarily download off GC
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The "powers that be" need to really look at what they are doing to the game if they arbitrarily archive caches just because someone took it to an event so they could get to know other cacher's that's purely rediculous. Come on..... It's merely a game!

 

That makes little sense to me.

Why does a person need to log a temporary, moving cache at an event to get to know someone else? That is not a justification. You can easily meet and have fun without this weird aspect of the activities.

 

Archiving a cache that someone is toting around the country with them, when it is listed online as supposed to be at XXXXX coordinates, is hardly arbitrary.

Did you go to the Geowoodstock event? I don't remember seeing you there? This only makes little sense if you care about the numbers..... I don't. If you have been to ANY event you would know that icebreakers are needed. You might, but I don't just walk into a campsite and start a conversation with a stranger. As for the logging...... What does it matter? GC.com can make some sort of "allowance" for a limited number of caches being brought to an event for logging if they wanted to. Then we wouldn't have people whining over "spilt milk" (or moved caches). Fix the game not the players!

 

I don't believe anyone is saying you cannot use caches at events as Icebreakers if you wish. You just can not use caches published on this site that were for a different location. When the owner of the cache requested it be published on GC.com they agreed to abide by the guidelines. Taking a published cache (archived or active) to an event for the specific purpose of having people logging it without going to the original site makes it a traveling cache. These types of caches are not normally approved by GC.com.

 

You can have temporary caches set up that are not published on the site for these icebreaking events or even some of the local folks can place new permanent caches in the area for people to find (with the intent they will remain after the event). If you asked, the reviewer might even be able to hold off publishing them until the day of the event.

 

TPTB probably archived the caches because the owner failed to live up to the guidelines they agreed to abide by when it was published. This is the fault of the cache owner, not GC.com.

 

People don't need the smiley to break the ice - the satisfaction of making new friends should be reward enough. I believe this is the purpose of Event Caches.

Edited by DcCow
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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :rolleyes:

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

 

I wasn't at GW4, so maybe you can help me understand this...

 

The coordinates for the caches at the various campsites...they were posted WHERE?

Not on the webpage for the cache that is in Iraq. Not on the page for the Florida cache that made it's way to Texas... :(

The coordinates were posted on an event board for the weekend. Most of us don't carry laptops with us to events to arbitrarily download off GC

 

Ah...there's the problem. These were NOT caches listed on GC.com, they were listed on an event board. They shouldn't be logged on GC.com.

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Brian, You know you have my upmost respect. However GC.com opened up this game/hobby/sport to make it what it is today. They have done it to play to the largest audience possible by offerring various types of caches. These caches are park and grabs, Wal-Mart caches, Event caches, Virtuals, Locationless, Micros, Earth Caches, etc....

 

Like I said earlier, there is something for everyone.

 

I don't think that is the issue here. The issue is deliberately abusing the features of this website to log caches that would not have been published by GC.COM.

 

One COULD argue (and I'm not) that the ABILITY to do so indicates implicit consent. Witness the "non-members backdooring their way into MOC" threads out there.

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Caches are not just about a box in the woods, its about the people who place them. When I create a cache it comes from ME. So for the people who brought the temporary caches it came from their heart and they obviously wanted to have them for ice breakers or share unique containers.

 

I think ARCHIVING the cache is uncalled for and unnecessary :( . Is Geocaching now a dictatorship? What a shame, I thought it was about people as well as the search. :rolleyes:

 

I would have collected the "smilies" but honestly, they don't really matter as much as I'm downright ANGRY at the caches being archived, that's REDICULOUS. And those of you who are so offended, I strongly encourage you to ask yourselves WHY, don't you think a cache is also about the people who place them, not just the box?

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Actually, I wanted to add something. From what I can tell, it sounds like there were a TON of people at GW4, and yet only a small percentage of those decided that they would log "finds" on pocket caches, temps, etc. It also sounds like it was a great place to meet and hang out with people...and I would expect most of the discussion here was NOT taking place there, because live face to face cachers tend to talk more about their favorite caches, and I really don't think either the DRR or Temps would have many "great caches" to talk about.

 

From what I've seen from people who WERE at the event and didn't participate in what has become "questionable" activities had a great time, and it's something I would not mind checking out next year if I have time. I'd be perfectly happy being there, hanging out with cacher's I've read about only in forum posts (haven't gotten outside MN much to see names) and checking out other styles of hides, either containers or temps. It would be one great mega-event which even has it's own icon (I'll admit to being a bit of an icon buff :rolleyes: ) and I'd get my one smiley. If I wanted more, I'd run out and find live caches, and try to get more states (than my 3 currently :( ). I feel bad for those that seem to believe that, just because a few people are bending the rules into celtic knotwork, that everyone at the event felt the same way.

 

It would be nice to hope that, with the lessons learned from this GW, the next would be better and people would be more reasonable about thier expectations. To me, GW4 would have been a great gathering to meet TONS of great geocachers from around the world...who needs tons of smileys on their profile when you've got that one that says "I was there, I met tons of people, I have the memories to prove it"?

 

Celticwulf

Again, it's about the count! Who cares? remove the stat if it's causing that much of an issue. There are plenty of stat sites they can boast their number on. GW4 was great, I'm sorry for anyone that missed it. I am proud to have attended and I did caches (permanent ones) while there and have memories of good times with the family and friends from the geocaching community. I thought that was what the game was for. :(
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Caches are not just about a box in the woods, its about the people who place them. When I create a cache it comes from ME. So for the people who brought the temporary caches it came from their heart and they obviously wanted to have them for ice breakers or share unique containers.

 

I think ARCHIVING the cache is uncalled for and unnecessary :( . Is Geocaching now a dictatorship? What a shame, I thought it was about people as well as the search. :rolleyes:

 

I would have collected the "smilies" but honestly, they don't really matter as much as I'm downright ANGRY at the caches being archived, that's REDICULOUS. And those of you who are so offended, I strongly encourage you to ask yourselves WHY, don't you think a cache is also about the people who place them, not just the box?

Thanks for chiming in. I didn't think I was alone in this! :(
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My favorite icebreaker, which I've played at three events including GW3, is the geocacher bingo game. Everyone receives a sheet with a grid of boxes and in each box there is a description like "Has more than 1000 finds" or "has been hospitalized with a caching injury" or "has found a terrain 5 cache." You roam around the picnic pavilion to find people who fit each category, and have them sign your card. I especially like this because I fit unique categories ("Is a volunteer for Groundspeak" or "Leaves live animals in caches as his signature item"). Thus, just about everyone at the event comes up and talks with me.

 

That is what events are about. I did not need a GC.com smiley in order to break the ice and meet people by playing the bingo game.

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Most of us don't carry laptops with us to events to arbitrarily download off GC

huh. when i travel, i do a PQ for my destination before i leave then upload everything so i don't need a laptop.

 

Caches are not just about a box in the woods, its about the people who place them.

yes they are.

 

events are about the people. caches are about searching for a hidden container.

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Fix the game not the players!

I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. As briansnat said at one point, the game is about finding hidden containers with a GPSr. If you aren't doing that, you aren't geocaching. It's like saying you ran and finished the NY Marathon when really all you did was meet someone who was at the NY Marathon at a party and sign their t-shirt :rolleyes:

The problem is that is exactly what they did! The coordinates were posted for the location of the cache at the various camp sites.... and they found a container, signed the log and in some instances traded items. So once again, fix the game! Archiving a cache merely because someone's count is boosted is whats absurd. Most of us are merely playing the game (you can tell by my numbers) and don't get upset when others post 5000 cache finds.

 

I wasn't at GW4, so maybe you can help me understand this...

 

The coordinates for the caches at the various campsites...they were posted WHERE?

Not on the webpage for the cache that is in Iraq. Not on the page for the Florida cache that made it's way to Texas... :(

The coordinates were posted on an event board for the weekend. Most of us don't carry laptops with us to events to arbitrarily download off GC

 

Ah...there's the problem. These were NOT caches listed on GC.com, they were listed on an event board. They shouldn't be logged on GC.com.

The waypoints were on GC.com (making them loggable). Hence the problem GC.com has with this... they weren't in original coordinates. So do we (talking as part of the "chastised" one's) change coordinates (temporarily) to suite the game so the caches are "legal" pieces again? And after the event is done change the coordinates back again? :( Now who's wanting to manipulate the game?
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My favorite icebreaker, which I've played at three events including GW3, is the geocacher bingo game. Everyone receives a sheet with a grid of boxes and in each box there is a description like "Has more than 1000 finds" or "has been hospitalized with a caching injury" or "has found a terrain 5 cache." You roam around the picnic pavilion to find people who fit each category, and have them sign your card. I especially like this because I fit unique categories ("Is a volunteer for Groundspeak" or "Leaves live animals in caches as his signature item"). Thus, just about everyone at the event comes up and talks with me.

 

That is what events are about. I did not need a GC.com smiley in order to break the ice and meet people by playing the bingo game.

Used that at TC05 and TC06. Works really well.....the problem is just that..... it's been used at TC05 and TC06. :rolleyes:
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Caches are not just about a box in the woods, its about the people who place them. When I create a cache it comes from ME. So for the people who brought the temporary caches it came from their heart and they obviously wanted to have them for ice breakers or share unique containers.

 

I think ARCHIVING the cache is uncalled for and unnecessary :( . Is Geocaching now a dictatorship? What a shame, I thought it was about people as well as the search. :rolleyes:

 

I would have collected the "smilies" but honestly, they don't really matter as much as I'm downright ANGRY at the caches being archived, that's REDICULOUS. And those of you who are so offended, I strongly encourage you to ask yourselves WHY, don't you think a cache is also about the people who place them, not just the box?

 

A cache that is in place and being found should be archived only for very limited reasons (muggled, not maintained, etc.) IMHO, any cache that is in place should not even have an SBA note without first trying to contact the cache owner, but that's the "rule" I play by and won't hold anyone else too. I try to think about how I would feel if the situation were reversed, and that's how I try to act.

 

However, the cache's in question here were NOT in place and were NOT following the guidelines. In that regards, the caches were perfectly fine being archived because that opens up areas for new cachers to hide new and interesting caches (hopefully). Again, I'm using that same logic of "how would I feel"...put it in the place of the person who we've already found out about who went searching for the "active" cache that was not actually in place but was instead at GW4. How much time and effort did they put in trying to find something the "owner" decided to move without telling them? That, IMHO is the greater problem.

 

In reality, these caches violated the guideline, and until strong action (aka archiving them) was taken, this practice would continue. Anyone betting this activity is going to slow to almost stop now that TPTB have spoken?

 

Celticwulf

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The waypoints were on GC.com (making them loggable). Hence the problem GC.com has with this... they weren't in original coordinates. So do we (talking as part of the "chastised" one's) change coordinates (temporarily) to suite the game so the caches are "legal" pieces again? And after the event is done change the coordinates back again? :rolleyes: Now who's wanting to manipulate the game?

i don't think you can move a cache's coordinates more than .1 miles away from the original coordinates. it's NOT the same cache, just the same container in a completely different location. it's still you wanting to manipulate the game.

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(6) Reaching the hide area and finding the cache apparently missing, and claiming a Find (cheating)

This one is up to the cache owner. I don't mind doing this as if the person is a know good cacher and verifies the cache is gone then I'll let them claim the cache. I hate to waste gas and have to return to a cache that gets replaced. But some folks don't find it so o'well. It us up to the owner.

cheers

One if my first hides had some vetran cachers stumped, every time a DNF was loged I checked the cache. It was still there and not missing. That cache is still active and is still stumping people.

If they do not find the cache, they do not get the find.

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My favorite icebreaker, which I've played at three events including GW3, is the geocacher bingo game. Everyone receives a sheet with a grid of boxes and in each box there is a description like "Has more than 1000 finds" or "has been hospitalized with a caching injury" or "has found a terrain 5 cache." You roam around the picnic pavilion to find people who fit each category, and have them sign your card. I especially like this because I fit unique categories ("Is a volunteer for Groundspeak" or "Leaves live animals in caches as his signature item"). Thus, just about everyone at the event comes up and talks with me.

 

That is what events are about. I did not need a GC.com smiley in order to break the ice and meet people by playing the bingo game.

Used that at TC05 and TC06. Works really well.....the problem is just that..... it's been used at TC05 and TC06. :rolleyes:

Following that logic, I've found a guardrail cache. Please, nobody hide any more of those. It's been used.

 

Each bingo game, with different questions in the boxes and different people in attendance, is a unique experience. It is fun. Is it only fun for you if you get a smiley?

Edited by The Leprechauns
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Now who's wanting to manipulate the game?

I think we all know the answer to this one...it's been said over and over in this and the other threads.

 

But I'll answer it one more time:

 

The people who think they should log a find on a cache that is not listed on GC.com.

 

It is possible to just find a temp cache and enjoy the experience without getting a smilie. Heck...if people HAVE to get something for it, give 'em a raffle ticket for a prize drawing or something like that. That won't manipulate the game.

Edited by Stunod
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