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The New Numbers Game


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SNIP ----<

 

Are there any variations in the game?

 

YES! We strongly encourage it, actually. Geocaching is a game that constantly reinvents itself, and the rules are very flexible. If you have a new idea on how to place a cache, or a new game using GPS units, we'd love to hear about it.

 

Interesting. So even the "hard and fast" rules are neither hard nor fast it would seem.

 

So what's the bottom line? No matter how much a practice is "generally accepted" or how long it's been that way, that's no reason for anyone to assume that that's a rule and is inviolate, nor is any one person's OPINION on how logs should be handled more or less valuable than any others. To claim that your way of doing things is the RIGHT way or the ONLY way, even if it IS the "generally accepted" practice, is elitist at best. >--SNIP

 

And in the end the stats only really mean that a Cacher did something he/she enjoyed doing XXX amount of times. Period

 

:laughing:

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Wow...where to begin? My eyes are crosseyed and my brain hurts after reading thru all of this stuff!!

 

First, to the newbie worried about attending an event... PLEASE GO!!!! I've been to 20 events and have enjoyed each and every one of them, whether they were a half hour away, overnite stays or 3 hour drives just to go for the day and drive back home. You meet great people and get to share 'war' stories and make new friends all over the place.

 

What I don't understand is how regulated some folks want this 'game', 'hobby', 'obsession', 'past-time' to really be. Don't we have enough rules as it is? At work.... paying taxes.... the government already rules half of what we do these days...... WHYYYY would you want to participate in something that is supposed to be FUN if you are told EXACTLY how/why you are to do each and every thing?!

 

Yes, there are cheaters... and in anything you get involved in, you will find those folks, but they constitute a handful of people when you look at the whole picture. And, you're going to let those 'few' folks ruin your enjoyment why? Because they are not playing the exact way 'you' would? Now, I am not insulting anyone here, please be clear on that.... I am just finding all of this hard to digest.

 

No one likes cheaters, or frauds..... and if someone isn't following the 'rules' so to speak, yes, they should be told about it. (As I learned about placing caches and all...there were questions that came up in the beginning and I had to figure out the guidelines). Now that, I understand...and to the best of my ability try to follow it. And feel I've succeeded. But how far are we to take it? I personally enjoy(ed) the virts and loc caches that were out there. They took me to some really neat places, made me think about where I was going, etc. Waymarking just doesn't do it for me... it's not the same.

 

Am I a number hound? I have set goals for myself.... and for a while got really obsessed about who I wanted to catch, and how to get out and cache more so I can meet those goals..... and it sure was a mental check for me to see what I was doing.... taking the fun out of something for myself!!! I still will set little goals for myself, but lately I've gotten into some harder terrain caches and am trying to be a better puzzle cracker. I played a game recently and was proud that I finished it...... I do this hobby for ME.... and I do like to see my stats shown. Personally I think it's cool to see them add up. I also like to see other peoples stats sometimes. It's just interesting to me.. ...

 

Everyone plays this game the way they see fit and in a way that serves them in their own personal life.... and no matter how we play, it may not be the same way as someone else. Does it automatically make them wrong? I don't think so. I think there is too much worrying about what 'others' do when we have ourselves to police.

 

I understand the stat folks argument.... and the people who want theirs not shown. I also know people that don't log their finds. Hey, if that makes them happy... I say have fun with it.

 

I am keeping this general. I am NOT addressing kinds of caches, pocket caches or temp caches... think you all have done a good enough job of that. I am just saying that there is a limit to how much people should be 'controlled' in a hobby. No, the cheats do not exactly thrill me... but I don't have time in my life to worry about what they are doing. In the end, they have to live w/themselves, knowing they're really 'not' a stand up character-- in whatever they are cheating in.

 

In my opinion, I feel everyone should go out and have fun, play this hobby the way it makes you happy and try to let the 'other garbage' go... it will make you happier in the end. It's too much work worrying about what someone else is doing all the time.

 

So, hope I didn't make anyone too angry....but after reading all of that, I just felt moved to toss in my .25 cents worth.

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Maybe they could make "pocket caches" a 14th icon on the "Cache Type" list, like virtuals, traditionals, events, webcams...etc. That way, the person "placing" the cache (in their pocket!) could declare it as such, avoiding any potential misunderstanding about whether the cache was actually at the given coordinates. Those opposed to "pocket caches" could look at people's profiles and subtract the number of "pocket caches" they'd done, if they wanted to see how many "proper" caches they'd found.

 

They could even use a little icon of a "snot-rag" on the site to indicate "pocket caches", if they wanted. :)

 

I'm pretty new to all this, so I hope you'll forgive me if I'm speaking out of turn. I'm really only jesting. Mostly. :huh: I don't have a real strong opinion on this one way or the other. I did a couple of the "pocket" caches at GW4, not previously having heard about whether or not there was any rule against them. These are ones that literally came to *me* - I didn't go around looking for them. I hadn't realized such a thing existed. It felt a *little* cheesy logging them - too easy, really - but that didn't stop me from logging them. The way I saw it, they weren't any less cheesy than some of the caches I've logged when I've hopped out of a car to find a cache in an obvious hiding spot. And they weren't really any easier that the ones I've logged even though someone else in a group I was caching with had found them and were squealing over them before I'd even gotten close enough to see where the cache was hidden. :laughing:

 

And it actually did take a -little- bit of effort, as I saw it, for me to find these "pocket caches". As a naturally shy person, I often find it difficult to carry on a conversation with folks I haven't met before or don't know very well. In the instances where I found "pocket caches", I actually had to meet and converse with the people carrying them long enough for them to reveal to me that they had a cache in their pocket (and were happy to see me!). I didn't know who had caches and who didn't (or even that the potential was there) when I first got to GW4, and literally met and spoke with -dozens- of people (a real feat for me, as well as a lot of fun), so I don't feel too bad about logging the 2-3 pocket caches that I "found".

 

One cache that has since been declared a "pocket" cache, the "Set On You" cache by Sandbassking and Queen, was a sheet of paper on which was listed 20 "icebreaker" activities. The idea was to get folks at GW4 to tell you "boxers or briefs", "cat or dog person" or do things like compare shoe sizes, call you on your cell phone, or yell "Huckle Buckle Beanstalks" before signing your sheet beside the requirement they'd completed. In my opinion, this took a lot more creativity on the part of the cache creators than many of the more traditional caches I've logged. And it required a lot more of me, initiative-wise, to complete and "find" it. And yet, when I went to log it on geocaching.com, I found it had been locked, due to it having been ruled a "pocket cache". I was disappointed, but I'll live. (I saved the sheet, and have added it to my GeoScapbook for posterity - as a reminder that it -can- be fun to go up to random people and ask them to do silly things, and as possible blackmail fodder later) :)

 

Anyway - my .02 ended up being quite a bit more. I hope I haven't offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intention. And I apologize if I've re-hashed anything that's already been said - I'll admit I jumped in without reading the entire thread first.

 

Happy Caching!

 

Valerie (wowieann)

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I am just saying that there is a limit to how much people should be 'controlled' in a hobby. No, the cheats do not exactly thrill me... but I don't have time in my life to worry about what they are doing. In the end, they have to live w/themselves, knowing they're really 'not' a stand up character-- in whatever they are cheating in.

 

 

Nor do I.

 

A while back my teenage nephew (Lord of Dragons) paid me one of the best compliments I have ever had. He said, "You live life to the fullest." The majority of the time I spend with him is spent caching. I don't know that his assessment is true, especially since he is only with me occasionally, but it certainly IS true that caching has taken me to a lot of really cool palces that I would never had known existed and it certainly has provided an incentive for me to get off the couch and ENJOY GOD'S BEAUTIFUL WORLD!

 

(OBTW- he is serving his country now- "being all he can be" I pray for his protection and that he might serve honourably while HE "lives life to the fullest")

 

Life is SHORT. Live it YOUR way and live it to the FULLEST.

 

When you see your life is nearly over, I can guarantee you that you will not be wishing you had chastized, caught, or corrected more cheaters- or even improved the game so others could not so easily cheat.

 

No, when you see life nearing its end, you will be wishing you had spent more time with your family and lived life more FULLY.

 

Confucius' Cat say, "GDAE, cat done with too long thread- horse dead"

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In a local forum, someone who WAS there said there were nine "pocket caches".

All this angst over NINE caches!

Some people need to get a life!

There's a bookmark list with over 150 already, most having been archieved already and hopefully the rest will be soon. If you really think there are only 9 pocket caches out there pretending to be real approved caches, then you need to stop believing everything you read on the internet.

 

Nine at Geowoodstock. Never have seen any in the SF Bay area.

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The cache of mine that was archived was certainly not a pocket cache! Now that I think about it..... even if it fit, you REALLY wouldn't want my (now archived) cache in your pocket. :)

 

It was done for the fun of it. I never heard a negative comment from anyone who saw the comtainer. I saw plenty of smiles and shared many a belly laugh with it's finders. There was no deceit in the cache page. If you read the logs and my logging requirements you would see that this cache was all about FUN. Yeah.... I guess you could say it was "all about the numbers". I bet all of the finders would agree it was the laughs and not the smileys that were the most important numbers for this (now archived) cache. As a side note, there were MANY people who enjoyed this cache without logging it if that makes any of you feel better. Some may say this could've been just as funny without it being a cache..... 'taint so! Ask anyone who found it!

You used your cache page for a second cache which was not approved by GC and used it for logging of bogus finds in TX at GW4. It is physically impossible to be at 2 places at once, at least to the best of my knowledge, so how can people be logging it in TX when the posted coordinates were in FL? You purposely circumvented the GC guidlines to do whatever you wanted. You broke the rules and now your cache has been archieved, correctly so. Call it what you want, but GC was right on this one. Why is it so hard for you (general you not just you buy everyone eklse who thinks their cache was archieved erroneously) people understand something so simple as "break the rules, cache gets archieved". Fun doesn't mean it is right. I used to drive fast with my friends and car surf down the highway. It was a lot of fun actually, but just because it was fun for the few of us doing it, it doesn't make it right.

 

You have missed the point of my post. I was neither agreeing nor disagreeing with gc.com archiving my cache. I was trying to get the point across that FUN was the purpose for what I did - not number inflation and certainly not to disregard the guidelines. The fun of this cache is finding the log. Ask someone who found it - they'll tell you it's a hoot and I have pictures to prove it. [joke]Some of these pictures will remain locked in my lawyer's safe with instructions to disseminate said pictures in the event I am banned from gc.com....... [/joke]

 

Before listing this cache, I understood the issue of moving caches was not an arbitrary decision but was motivated by the desire to make sure that a cache was always at the listed coordinates. The cache page is the same as it was when approved except maybe the addition of a joke or two. I did not "convert" an existing or archived cache into a moving cache. The cache page clearly said that I may move the container from time to time. Me and the approver were under the impression that the way we did this was within the guidelines. Neither of us would knowingly violate the guidelines. Note: I am not pleading ignorance of the guidelines! The guidelines say a cache whose goal is to move or is temporary i.e. for an event will not be approved. This cache was neither. I respect the wishes of Jeremy on this issue so will not allow further logs of this type when I re-list this cache.

 

So that everyone knows what I am talking about in this case, I placed a 35mm micro in place of the large container at the posted coordinates so that a finder would be able to find a cache at the listed coordinates. Unfortunately, in my excitement and haste to attend GW4, I neglected to post a note to that effect. Because of my failure, one geocacher failed in his attempt to find it in Florida while the large container was in Texas. For this faux pas, I sent an apology to said cacher. He was quite understaning and expressed his regrets over the cache being archived. (Note: there was no rant against gc.com in my email to him - ask him if you don't believe me)

 

In closing, I did not "circumvent the rules", neither did I "break the rules". It appears I misinterpreted the guidelines. According to what I read and especially when read in their entirety, the guidelines tell me my cache was OK. Jeremy's statement makes clear his interpretation so I will abide by it.

 

Addressed to all:

There was no need for all of this drama. A simple clarification of the guidelines or maybe the addition of a rule would've been the best solution. Local approvers could've been contacted and then THEY could've done the archiving or allowed the hider to do it on his own. All of this name calling and hateful talk has done nothing but cause bad feelings and division amongst the geocaching community. I would hope that all would share my desire for a happy and harmonious forum. I am not suggesting that disagreements will not arise but calling people cheats and liars will never get the person you are disagreeing with to come to your way of thinking. Of course, I am assuming that is what you want......

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Wow...where to begin? My eyes are crosseyed and my brain hurts after reading thru all of this stuff!!

 

First, to the newbie worried about attending an event... PLEASE GO!!!! I've been to 20 events and have enjoyed each and every one of them, whether they were a half hour away, overnite stays or 3 hour drives just to go for the day and drive back home. You meet great people and get to share 'war' stories and make new friends all over the place.

 

What I don't understand is how regulated some folks want this 'game', 'hobby', 'obsession', 'past-time' to really be. Don't we have enough rules as it is? At work.... paying taxes.... the government already rules half of what we do these days...... WHYYYY would you want to participate in something that is supposed to be FUN if you are told EXACTLY how/why you are to do each and every thing?!

 

Yes, there are cheaters... and in anything you get involved in, you will find those folks, but they constitute a handful of people when you look at the whole picture. And, you're going to let those 'few' folks ruin your enjoyment why? Because they are not playing the exact way 'you' would? Now, I am not insulting anyone here, please be clear on that.... I am just finding all of this hard to digest.

 

No one likes cheaters, or frauds..... and if someone isn't following the 'rules' so to speak, yes, they should be told about it. (As I learned about placing caches and all...there were questions that came up in the beginning and I had to figure out the guidelines). Now that, I understand...and to the best of my ability try to follow it. And feel I've succeeded. But how far are we to take it? I personally enjoy(ed) the virts and loc caches that were out there. They took me to some really neat places, made me think about where I was going, etc. Waymarking just doesn't do it for me... it's not the same.

 

Am I a number hound? I have set goals for myself.... and for a while got really obsessed about who I wanted to catch, and how to get out and cache more so I can meet those goals..... and it sure was a mental check for me to see what I was doing.... taking the fun out of something for myself!!! I still will set little goals for myself, but lately I've gotten into some harder terrain caches and am trying to be a better puzzle cracker. I played a game recently and was proud that I finished it...... I do this hobby for ME.... and I do like to see my stats shown. Personally I think it's cool to see them add up. I also like to see other peoples stats sometimes. It's just interesting to me.. ...

 

Everyone plays this game the way they see fit and in a way that serves them in their own personal life.... and no matter how we play, it may not be the same way as someone else. Does it automatically make them wrong? I don't think so. I think there is too much worrying about what 'others' do when we have ourselves to police.

 

I understand the stat folks argument.... and the people who want theirs not shown. I also know people that don't log their finds. Hey, if that makes them happy... I say have fun with it.

 

I am keeping this general. I am NOT addressing kinds of caches, pocket caches or temp caches... think you all have done a good enough job of that. I am just saying that there is a limit to how much people should be 'controlled' in a hobby. No, the cheats do not exactly thrill me... but I don't have time in my life to worry about what they are doing. In the end, they have to live w/themselves, knowing they're really 'not' a stand up character-- in whatever they are cheating in.

 

In my opinion, I feel everyone should go out and have fun, play this hobby the way it makes you happy and try to let the 'other garbage' go... it will make you happier in the end. It's too much work worrying about what someone else is doing all the time.

 

So, hope I didn't make anyone too angry....but after reading all of that, I just felt moved to toss in my .25 cents worth.

 

I don't think there is a better post re this subject. We should let this one stand and delete the rest.

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I very rarely talk on these forums. I rarely even browse them. I think I have made maybe one post in the past. But I wanted to post to this topic.

 

I ride a bicycle quite a bit. A number of times a week. I pursue it, and I work to make myself stronger.

 

I log my miles. I have been logging my miles for as long as I have been riding as an adult. That is a long time. Logging miles is important.

 

I only log a mile if I actually rode the mile. I have never gone into the function menus of my cycling computer/odometer and manually incremented the miles.

 

Just a perspective.

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I very rarely talk on these forums. I rarely even browse them. I think I have made maybe one post in the past. But I wanted to post to this topic.

 

I ride a bicycle quite a bit. A number of times a week. I pursue it, and I work to make myself stronger.

 

I log my miles. I have been logging my miles for as long as I have been riding as an adult. That is a long time. Logging miles is important.

 

I only log a mile if I actually rode the mile. I have never gone into the function menus of my cycling computer/odometer and manually incremented the miles.

 

Just a perspective.

God, I hate to even step back into this. Your analogy is perfect, thank you for the perspective.

 

I think the problem is that some geocachers consider the smiley a reward, when it’s merely an icon that reflects that you have ‘found’ the geocache. When I see phrases associated with the smiley, such as, “CACHERX deserves the smiley for ____________” or “I’m allowing CACHERZ to log an extra smiley for___________”, I have no doubt where the loose standards began.

 

Someone doesn’t ‘deserve’ to find your (or my) cache nor can I ‘allow’ someone to find my cache, either they do or they do not. It’s binary, you have two choices, Found It, or Did Not Find It.

Edited by Criminal
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OK, after following these threads for way too long, I've just realized one of the main "insults" or "comebacks" to the people who are concerned is basically saying "why don't you spend time caching instead of trying to catch people?". It's only today that it finally dawned on me that people actually think there are cachers that do nothing but read every log to "catch" people doing things "wrong"...and they actually believe that those of us that are on one side of the argument are "happy" when we find people doing things "wrong".

 

OK, from my perspective, and from what I've seen from people doing the discussion saying that the recent "pocket cache" and "moved caches" things are NOT happy finding these things. I personally would LOVE to never see this happen, but I'm enough of a realist that there will be SOME people who will cheat at anything. The reason (at least from my perspective) is that, in the past, it WAS only a few people that were "bending" the rules (and yes, go look up the actual definition of "guideline" and tell me that it's not basically interchangable with a "rule"). When it's only a few, and people find it occasionally, it was kind of like a running joke. The problem is that suddenly the FEW people doing it TAUGHT others that this was the "correct" way to do things and there was a sudden explosion of "bending/breaking" over the weekend. What was a small running joke becomes a problem when it's no longer just a small thing.

 

Personally, I feel really bad for the cachers who've been "taught" that logging a pocket cache ONLINE is OK. They believed that the people telling them this were right, so they really didn't see the harm. I'm not willing to call EVERYONE who did this practice a liar or a cheat, but I would HOPE that with this drama people stop and THINK about what they are trying to claim as "finds" online and decide to do what makes sense.

 

The only really open issue left is the multi-logging events, which although Jeremy said was stupid it is not currently being "banned". Personally, I also feel it's stupid, and since the website really does NOT support it propperly (just look at anyone who's logged an event multiple times, see what their "events" list looks like) so I'm not going to even attempt to log temp caches ONLINE. This is not to say I won't search for them, or any other ice breaking game, but I feel these things are part of the ONE event, and that ONE smiley is all I need to say "hey, look, I was there and participated". But that's just my thoughts, and I do understand others perspectives, I just dissagree.

 

However, please do not say that I LOVE to find people violating the guidelines or bending the rules...what I love is finding caches and discussing cool caching things online when I'm not able to cache. Finding that people will do ANYTHING for a smiley makes me more frustrated and dissapointed. I truely respect any cachers trying for lots of caches in a day...my most was 30 with one other person (he's got the autorouting :rolleyes: ) so I understand the amount of work it takes. But to have the numbers cheapened by "bending" the rules is just stupid. And the only reason *I* post to this thread is because I want people to understand that, although it's been done for "years" like that, doesn't make it right.

 

blah

Celticwulf

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I very rarely talk on these forums. I rarely even browse them. I think I have made maybe one post in the past. But I wanted to post to this topic.

 

I ride a bicycle quite a bit. A number of times a week. I pursue it, and I work to make myself stronger.

 

I log my miles. I have been logging my miles for as long as I have been riding as an adult. That is a long time. Logging miles is important.

 

I only log a mile if I actually rode the mile. I have never gone into the function menus of my cycling computer/odometer and manually incremented the miles.

 

Just a perspective.

Please point me to the rule that states that I can't manually increment the miles. :rolleyes:

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I guess this is the thread to do this in...

 

I just have a few questions... and please seriously think about these... no slamming needed or whatever...

 

1. Is this a game?

2. Would the fact that your stats don't show to everyone else stop you from playing?

3. Is a person that has been caching for 2+ years and only has 100 finds looked at differently than a person who has been caching for 6 months and has 1000? If so why?

4. As a cache owner do you "police" your own cache's logs? If so, then why is any of this an issue? If something is not logged the way it's supposed to be, then remove it.

5. Do you win ANYTHING at all? (aside from a FTF prize)

6. Are they rules or guidelines? Rules a hard and fast. Aren't guidelines meant to evolve?

7. Do we pay a membership fee? If so, should't we have a say in how things are done? Does the phrase "majority rules" mean anything?

8. Does someone else's stats affect YOU in ANY way?

9. Does someone else's stats affect how YOU play the game?

10. I forgot... is this a game still?

11. If your stats all got erased (or didn't appear to everyone) tomorrow, would that affect how you play? Or if you would even play at all?

12. Isn't this supposed to be fun?

13. Seriously...What does it matter?

14. Is the "caching" knowledge spread by people caching or by a commercial, trying to get you to do this? I'm sure most people found out about caching FROM someone... Which means that the people who cache are your "bread and butter" so to speak...

 

EDIT: 1 more... If the cache stats page is for "personal" achievement and not a public one... Then who are we to say the a logged pocket cache is not an achievement for someone?

 

I'm not looking for answers here, just some things I keep asking myself...

 

It just seems like there's a LOT of those people on here that when they were kids used the "Gimme my ball I'm going home... (when they didn't get picked or passed the ball)" phrase a lot. The point is... I am going to continue to cache whether I get a "smiley" or no freakin "smiley" because I appreciate the hunt/find/meet/idea... Would you do the same?

 

Digi

Edited by Digi Man
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. . . <snip> It's only today that it finally dawned on me that people actually think there are cachers that do nothing but read every log to "catch" people doing things "wrong"...and they actually believe that those of us that are on one side of the argument are "happy" when we find people doing things "wrong".

 

<snip>However, please do not say that I LOVE to find people violating the guidelines or bending the rules...

blah

Celticwulf

 

...and how do you get your precious smileys when Groundspeak locks the pocket caches? Why, just log your own! :rolleyes:

 

Sheesh. It's not about the numbers though.

 

*Psst Celticwulf- I dont think they were referringto you :unsure:

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. . . <snip> It's only today that it finally dawned on me that people actually think there are cachers that do nothing but read every log to "catch" people doing things "wrong"...and they actually believe that those of us that are on one side of the argument are "happy" when we find people doing things "wrong".

 

<snip>However, please do not say that I LOVE to find people violating the guidelines or bending the rules...

blah

Celticwulf

 

...and how do you get your precious smileys when Groundspeak locks the pocket caches? Why, just log your own! :rolleyes:

 

Sheesh. It's not about the numbers though.

 

*Psst Celticwulf- I dont think they were referringto you :unsure:

If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

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Geez.

Seems like if you want to really keep track of the things that you found that were so fun and neat and added to your caching experience (its not just about the numbers!), that you'd at least add something about each of those awesome things you found when copy-pasted the logs to your own caches as a substitute, so you'd be able to go back and see and remember which of those cool things you were alternatively recording that log for.

 

Make sense? Well, neither does that.

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

 

Perhaps someone who has expressed concern about the integrity of the game?

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Perhaps someone who has expressed concern about the integrity of the game?

 

And?

What difference does it make to "report" cachers to Criminal? Must make everyone Feel better- which I think was the point made by a previous poster?

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And?

What difference does it make to "report" cachers to Criminal? Must make everyone Feel better- which I think was the point made by a previous poster?

Perhaps you should ask that of those doing the reporting and not Criminal.

Does anyone else find it ironic that someone named Criminal is trying to get everyone to do the right thing to keep our game fun, and fair, for everyone? :rolleyes:
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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

 

Perhaps someone who has expressed concern about the integrity of the game?

 

Or perhaps someone who checks the Recent Logs link on the main website while not able to be out caching to see cache's they'd like to do in the future?

 

Or how about a guy who's created a magazine about the good aspects of Geocaching and the fun people are having, but is having a harder time seeing peoples "fun" when they are logging "tft temp" 15 times on an event log?

 

The trouble is that some people think that Criminal spends all of his time searching for problems with peoples caches/logs...when if you actually think about it and see what he's posted in the past, you realize that he's concerned that NEW cachers are being brought into the activity with a missunderstanding of the rules, and is trying to point it out to the rest of the community so the fishy logs can be slowed down. (at least that's what I've taken from his postings, correct me if I'm wrong Criminal :rolleyes: )

 

Again, the problem is NOT one cacher "playing how they want"...the problem is the precident it sets and what it teaches new cachers. Look at the park bannings that have happened in the past based on small groups of people doing things wrong. Look at the fact that certain comunities have bad ideas of what Geocaching is because their only experience is a bomb squad call.

 

Really, personally I could care less what any ONE person does, because the people I know and cache with play by the same "rules" that I do. My concern is when MANY people do this...I'm just waiting for the report of someone's very well camoflaged cache being destroyed because the signing of the container in sharpie let muggles find it and toast it. When that happens, again ask yourself "what harm does it do?" and see if you can say None with a straight face.

 

Celticwulf

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1. Is this a game?

2. Would the fact that your stats don't show to everyone else stop you from playing?

3. Is a person that has been caching for 2+ years and only has 100 finds looked at differently than a person who has been caching for 6 months and has 1000? If so why?

4. As a cache owner do you "police" your own cache's logs? If so, then why is any of this an issue? If something is not logged the way it's supposed to be, then remove it.

5. Do you win ANYTHING at all? (aside from a FTF prize)

6. Are they rules or guidelines? Rules a hard and fast. Aren't guidelines meant to evolve?

7. Do we pay a membership fee? If so, should't we have a say in how things are done? Does the phrase "majority rules" mean anything?

8. Does someone else's stats affect YOU in ANY way?

9. Does someone else's stats affect how YOU play the game?

10. I forgot... is this a game still?

11. If your stats all got erased (or didn't appear to everyone) tomorrow, would that affect how you play? Or if you would even play at all?

12. Isn't this supposed to be fun?

13. Seriously...What does it matter?

14. Is the "caching" knowledge spread by people caching or by a commercial, trying to get you to do this? I'm sure most people found out about caching FROM someone... Which means that the people who cache are your "bread and butter" so to speak...

 

I know these were mostly rhetorical questions, but I'll respond to a few.

 

1. Game, sport, hobby, obsession, whatever you want to call it.

 

2. I'm sure there are many people who would change they way they play the game if there were no stats.

 

3. Judging from the e-mails I've received ridiculing me that I only have xxx amount of finds in xx amount of years and telling me to shut up because I don't have enough "experience" , I'd have to say yes.

 

4. I do.

 

5. You do. There is a certain "celebrity" that comes with numbers. I've been to events where an arriving heavy hitter is treated like royalty. Everybody wants to meet them, talk to them, have their picture taken with them. I'm sure its quite an ego boost for that person. There must be some reward for cheating or people won't do it.

 

6. Both rules and guidelines can evolve.

 

7. As customers we can have a say, but no, its not a democracy. If we don't like the way things are we take our business elsewhere.

 

8. It can. Its said that the quest for numbers has caused micro spew (numerous low quality caches). It makes it harder for me to find the good ones. Also if people log phony finds on missing caches, it may cause me to wast gas and time looking for a cach that is not there.

 

9. Personally no. But I do know of people who have rivalries with other geocachers. Often they are good natured, but they do affect how the participants play.

 

10. See # 1

 

11. Me, no. But see #2

 

12. I'm not sure why any of this should make things less fun. I know I still have a blast when I geocache.

 

13. Does it really matter that Sammy Sosa used a corked bat, or that Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds used steroids? Does it really matter that Milli Vanilli just lipsynched the song they won a Grammy for? Does it really matter that Rosie Ruiz won the Boston Marathon after taking a cab part of the way? Does it really matter that Jayson Blair made up stories and published them as fact in the NY Time? Does it really matter that Ward Churchill plagerized on many of his academic writings? Does it really matter that Bill Clinton committed perjury? I mean who does all this really hurt? Why should we care? Well many people do. When I see cheating and dishonesty I reserve the right to be outraged (even if I plagerized Auntie Weasel with this statement :rolleyes: ).

 

14. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Edited by briansnat
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I know these were mostly rhetorical questions, but I'll respond to a few.

 

1. Game, sport, hobby, obsession, whatever you want to call it.

 

2. I'm sure there are many people who would change they way they play the game if there were no stats.

 

So, IT IS all a numbers game...

 

3. Judging from the e-mails I've received ridiculing me that I only have xxx amount of finds in xx amount of years and telling me to shut up because I don't have enough "experience" , I'd have to say yes.

 

4. I do.

 

5. You do. There is a certain "celebrity" that comes with numbers. I've been to events where an arriving heavy hitter is treated like royalty. Everybody wants to meet them, talk to them, have their picture taken with them. I'm sure its quite an ego boost for that person. There must be some reward for cheating or people won't do it.

 

6. Both rules and guidelines can evolve.

 

Well the why so much fuss over types of caches (ie. virtual, temp., locationless, pocket, etc.)?

 

7. As customers we can have a say, but no, its not a democracy. If we don't like the way things are we take our business elsewhere.

 

Then how do we have a say??

 

8. It can. Its said that the quest for numbers has caused micro spew (numerous low quality caches). It makes it harder for me to find the good ones. Also if people log phony finds on missing caches, it may cause me to wast gas and time looking for a cach that is not there.

 

Wasted time and gas comes with the territory. Would you say the same thing for a ammo can in the woods that got muggled?

 

9. Personally no. But I do know of people who have rivalries with other geocachers. Often they are good natured, but they do affect how the participants play.

 

Then that's their business, and the way "they" play right?

 

10. See # 1

 

11. Me, no. But see #2

 

12. I'm not sure why any of this should make things less fun. I know I still have a blast when I geocache.

 

Because if you get "called out" on a message board by someone calling you a cheater or a fake finder, then that makes it a little less fun don't you think??

 

13. Does it really matter that Sammy Sosa used a corked bat, or that Mark McGuire and Barry Bonds used steroids? Does it really matter that Milli Vanilli just lipsynched the song they won a Grammy for? Does it really matter that Rosie Ruiz won the Boston Marathon after taking a cab part of the way? Does it really matter that Jayson Blair made up stories and published them as fact in the NY Time? Does it really matter that Ward Churchill plagerized on many of his academic writings? Does it really matter that Bill Clinton committed perjury? I mean who does all this really hurt? Why should we care? Well many people do. When I see cheating and dishonesty I reserve the right to be outraged (even if I plagerized Auntie Weasel with this statement :rolleyes: ).

 

Again... all these people "got" something for what they did... Geocacher's don't "get" anything (ie. millions of dollars, or a medal, or a presidency)... thank you for proving my point...

 

14. I have no idea what you are talking about here.

 

I'm talking about if geocachers make up your business, then accomodate them... don't cut someone off or make them feel stupid for wanting to evolve the sport or be innovative...

 

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

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Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

Please take this post by both meanings implied. I can't hepp meseff, I never follow my own advice.....

 

I was given a bit of knowledge that has helped me rise in my business to a position of authority and that tidbit is this:

 

"When someone else is showing their as$. There really isn't a need to point it out." :laughing:

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I'm not looking for answers here, just some things I keep asking myself...

 

Well then, ask yourself this.

 

If smiley's don't matter, why do people log things multiple times?

 

I'll tell you. They log things multiple times, or things that were handed to them (rather than being found), or their own things (so lame), whose locations they already know - because they want the smiley.

 

The arguments that "it's no big deal because smiley's don't matter", and "it's just a game anyway", yadda, are specious. Smiley counts are not just 'personal' or 'fun' - they are universally presented as accomplishments, denials aside. People who cheat at them do so because they want it to appear as if they have accomplished more than they actually have. Were that not so, they would not bother engaging in the behavior that is being complained about.

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Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

Please take this post by both meanings implied. I can't hepp meseff, I never follow my own advice.....

 

I was given a bit of knowledge that has helped me rise in my business to a position of authority and that tidbit is this:

 

"When someone else is showing their as$. There really isn't a need to point it out." :laughing:

You conveniently forgot the most important part of that post:

The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it.

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A lot of cachers think high numbers validate them in some way. The intent of geocaching becomes secondary to "getting the numbers". It has gotten so bad in my area that some folks attend events with binders filled with pages of caches they have never searched for. While at the event, they seek out previous finders to get "hints" or "lifelines" on the cache. One of my friends went to GWS last year and said folks were having their names logged on caches where they had never even gotten within 500ft of the cache. Like someone mentioned earlier, I would opt to have my # of caches invisable to everyone but myself.

 

For those who wish to play King of the Hill, let them opt to have their numbers on public view.

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I'm not looking for answers here, just some things I keep asking myself...

 

Well then, ask yourself this.

 

If smiley's don't matter, why do people log things multiple times?

 

I certainly can't speak for anyone else... I would not log my own cache just because I couldn't log something else... that... I've already stated... I was waiting to log things from GW4 also, that are not published (and prolly won't be...), but I'm certainly not going to log another cache for it, especially not my own...

 

I'll tell you. They log things multiple times, or things that were handed to them (rather than being found), or their own things (so lame), whose locations they already know - because they want the smiley.

 

Addressed, and maybe should be dressed with that particular person, individually in an email or something (not publicly on a message board)...

 

The arguments that "it's no big deal because smiley's don't matter", and "it's just a game anyway", yadda, are specious. Smiley counts are not just 'personal' or 'fun' - they are universally presented as accomplishments, denials aside. People who cheat at them do so because they want it to appear as if they have accomplished more than they actually have. Were that not so, they would not bother engaging in the behavior that is being complained about.

 

Again I reiterate the point, THIS IS A GAME... People will cheat... you deal with those people privately, not publicly... If you have a question about the way someone logs something then why not ask that person to consider the rules/guidelines, and move on... and if you feel the need to, don't do any of their caches. The problem is people don't like to be humiliated publicly, but usually handle criticism better or telling someone they're not playing the game correctly, on a one to one basis...

 

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Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

Please take this post by both meanings implied. I can't hepp meseff, I never follow my own advice.....

 

I was given a bit of knowledge that has helped me rise in my business to a position of authority and that tidbit is this:

 

"When someone else is showing their as$. There really isn't a need to point it out." :laughing:

You conveniently forgot the most important part of that post:

The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it.

 

I give not a flip what others think about what others do to inflate their egos. Yes, the negativity this debate is generating so a few can look down from their high horse is NO DIFFERENT than number pumping. I don't give a flip what OZ the great and powerful does to inflate HIS ego either.

 

I have a huge (friggin' HUGE) ego and it didn't get that way because I spend my time looking down at others for how they tend to their own business.

 

The whole point of my post was that accentuating the negative NEVER resolves an argument and it CERTAINLY isn't good if you're running a buisness which is what gc.com is.

 

Someone said this earlier:

 

I'm talking about if geocachers make up your business, then accomodate them... don't cut someone off or make them feel stupid for wanting to evolve the sport or be innovative...

Edited by Snoogans
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Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

Please take this post by both meanings implied. I can't hepp meseff, I never follow my own advice.....

 

I was given a bit of knowledge that has helped me rise in my business to a position of authority and that tidbit is this:

 

"When someone else is showing their as$. There really isn't a need to point it out." :laughing:

You conveniently forgot the most important part of that post:

The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it.

 

I give not a flip what others think about what others do to inflate their egos. Yes, the negativity this debate is generating so a few can look down from their high horse is NO DIFFERENT than number pumping. I don't give a flip what OZ the great and powerful does to inflate HIS ego either.

 

I have a huge (friggin' HUGE) ego and it didn't get that way because I spend my time looking down at others for how they tend to their own business.

 

The whole point of my post was that accentuating the negative NEVER resolves an argument and it CERTAINLY isn't good if you're running a buisness which is what gc.com is.

 

Someone said this earlier:

 

I'm talking about if geocachers make up your business, then accomodate them... don't cut someone off or make them feel stupid for wanting to evolve the sport or be innovative...

Someone I respect far more said:

Perhaps someone who has expressed concern about the integrity of the game?

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES.....

 

December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES.....

 

December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

 

I belive the peanut gallery response here would be

 

 

OOOOoooooOOOooo

BURNnnnnnn

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December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

Not necessarily. Consider this hypothetical: I'm visiting Criminal's area and we meet up for lunch. Nearby, is one of his caches that he's especially proud of. He dares me to try to find it. I punch the coords into my GPSr and off we go.

 

I look for that thing forever before finally finding it. Meanwhile, he's laughing his butt off.

 

How did my finding the cache in his presence make me a cheat or a liar.

 

EDIT: Why do I always fall for the sock puppet? I hope this at least gets amusing.

Edited by sbell111
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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES.....

 

December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

 

No it's not cheating. If he found it on his own. It doesn't matter if the owner was present or not.

 

Besides that, you are insulting a friend of mine. A man that has a lot of integerity. Like posting under his own name. Can you say the same sock?

 

El Diablo

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES.....

 

December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

 

No it's not cheating. If he found it on his own. It doesn't matter if the owner was present or not.

 

Besides that, you are insulting a friend of mine. A man that has a lot of integerity. Like posting under his own name. Can you say the same sock?

 

El Diablo

 

:laughing:<_<:ph34r: Way to burn back El D.

 

This is better than watching McEnroe reruns on ESPN 2.

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No it's not cheating. If he found it on his own. It doesn't matter if the owner was present or not.

 

Besides that, you are insulting a friend of mine. A man that has a lot of integerity. Like posting under his own name. Can you say the same sock?

 

El Diablo

Really? Since when? I thought cheating was cheating? If I drag the owner along with me and they show me where the cache is that is not cheating??, give me a break. Okay back into my sock now. :laughing:

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Really? Since when? I thought cheating was cheating? If I drag the owner along with me and they show me where the cache is that is not cheating??, give me a break. Okay back into my sock now. :laughing:

i didn't see the part in the log where it said that the owner showed him where the cache was located.

 

i don't know criminal from adam, but i would be willing to bet money that the smiley was a legit find. go back to your drawer.

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Really? Since when? I thought cheating was cheating? If I drag the owner along with me and they show me where the cache is that is not cheating??, give me a break. Okay back into my sock now. <_<

i didn't see the part in the log where it said that the owner showed him where the cache was located.

 

i don't know criminal from adam, but i would be willing to bet money that the smiley was a legit find. go back to your drawer.

I read the log the same as you, but that doesn't fit the sock's agenda so it was better to make the rest up. Someone let that sock log a cache because he deserves it! :laughing:

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No it's not cheating. If he found it on his own. It doesn't matter if the owner was present or not.

 

Besides that, you are insulting a friend of mine. A man that has a lot of integerity. Like posting under his own name. Can you say the same sock?

 

El Diablo

Really? Since when? I thought cheating was cheating? If I drag the owner along with me and they show me where the cache is that is not cheating??, give me a break. Okay back into my sock now. :laughing:

 

I'm sorry sock, but I missed the part in the log where he dragged the owner along or where the owner showed him where the cache was. Can you point that part of the log out again please?

 

El Diablo

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If you are referring to me, I don't have to look, I'm getting dozens of emails a day on this issue.

 

Why? Are you the Cache Police, or information brokerage? In Charge of reeling in cheaters?

Sorry, but three days a week Criminal gets to take two hour lunches to hit the gym. You see, he has many varied interests other than just geocaching. Sometimes he slips into this weird place where he talks about himself in the third person.

 

No, I’m not the cache police. I do, however, find cheating* deplorable. The vast majority of the people who have responded think it’s wrong/stupid/lame to log a Found It on a cache that you did not find, the owner of the website has also said pretty much the same thing, and yet people are still whining when they are exposed for doing it. Why are they sending the information to me? I can’t say with certainty. Maybe they don’t want to rock the local boat but find the practice wrong, maybe they aren’t confrontational, or maybe they don’t want to upset their geocaching friends that do it.

 

*I recognize that many of the people who got caught up in this didn’t intentionally cheat, but were mentored by some who did.

 

Inadvertent cheating – wrong

Intentional cheating – deplorable

Intentionally cheating at a game with no prizes merely to puff up your ego – pricelessly appalling.

 

THOSE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES.....

 

December 10, 2005 by Criminal (318 found)

Found this one on a cache maintenance visit with the owner. It takes some technique to retrieve it. Thanks!

[view this log on a separate page]

 

Is not finding a cache with the owner cheating/lying? A bit hypocritical...

 

I belive the peanut gallery response here would be

 

 

OOOOoooooOOOooo

BURNnnnnnn

If that's the cache I think it is, I was with the cache owner and found it of my own volition. She not only didn't help me, she wouldn't have if I had asked.

 

Nice try though, keep looking.

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