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The New Numbers Game


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I think everyone should play the GAME the way they want to. If you don't want to do pocket caches, don't do them. If you don't want to pay attention to stats, don't pay attention to them. If you do want to do these things, then do them. I really don't see who it's hurting to let people have pocket caches or stats.

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What seems odd to me is that some of the same people that say it isn't about the numbers are some of the same people that log caches like these and are some of the same people who are againt allowing others to hide their find counts from public view. If it isn't about the numbers and we are not in competition with each other then why should I be forced to show my find count to you? My number of finds shouldn't matter to you.

 

I've noticed the biggets numbers whiners worry more about numbers than those of us who admit we like numbers, stats, and all that fun stuff. They like to dismiss a find becaues it was "just about the numbers". They apparently are ashamed of their own numbers when the truth is most of the numbers folks haven't even noticed.

 

I really don't understand the mentality.

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What seems odd to me is that some of the same people that say it isn't about the numbers are some of the same people that log caches like these and are some of the same people who are againt allowing others to hide their find counts from public view. If it isn't about the numbers and we are not in competition with each other then why should I be forced to show my find count to you? My number of finds shouldn't matter to you.

 

I've noticed the biggets numbers whiners worry more about numbers than those of us who admit we like numbers, stats, and all that fun stuff. They like to dismiss a find becaues it was "just about the numbers". They apparently are ashamed of their own numbers when the truth is most of the numbers folks haven't even noticed.

 

I really don't understand the mentality.

 

I admit to not reading this thread and only hitting the last page link. So maybe I am OT. I apologize if I am. Reading RK's post, I was reminded of a post/thread I made long ago. It might or might not be OT for this thread but seemed OK as a reply/addition to RK's post: Here

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But what about all the area that those caches take up? One of the state game lands in our area had roughly 20 permanent caches placed for an event, because everyone needed to get their numbers. Now, almost 2 years later, all those caches placed just to provide numbers are sucking up real estate that could be used for some much better hides. So yes, numbers caches do negatively affect those of us who don't play the game.

 

All I can offer is, you should have started caching sooner, and should have put caches in all those great places before the numbers whores polluted your landscape. Nothing anyone can do about it now.

 

Another big negative is that many, many new cachers see the numbers game, and they think that's what all this is about. They log temporary event caches umpteen times, thinking that's what they're SUPPOSED to do. They hide nothing but lousy micros because they think that's what they're SUPPOSED to do, and that's what everyone wants. They're learning by the examples we set, and frankly I see some really poor examples being set by very prominent cachers. The recent "record run" in Dallas is a great BAD example. How many people are now going to think it's perfectly acceptable to sign a cache CONTAINER, rather than the log that's inside it?

 

Then it's up to the responsible cachers to show the newbies that the enjoyment isn't in the numbers. How do you feel about showing newbies that it's OK to take stupid risks, like entering drainage pipes during or right after a heavy rain, and being washed back out of the pipe by the rising water? Talk about a bad example!

 

I know people don't want rules. And I've often said "play this game to have fun, do it your own way". But you know what? The "no rules" thing is KILLING the game the rest of us enjoy, whether we want it to or not.

 

At the very least, give me a way to turn off my numbers on the site so others can't see them.

 

I still think you've got it wrong - what's needed is a way to turn the numbers off for the people who are bothered by them. If you don't have a way to keep track of them, people will do that themselves with a pencil and paper if they have to, and post them in their logs. I see FTFs posted like that all the time. Other forums offer the option of turning off sig files, so those with dialup connections don't have the time lag of loading someone's picture 15 times while following a thread. Others, who choose to see them, still can. That's what's needed here.

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The actions of those who do this impacts the rest of us

 

I don't understand how someone who logs a pocket cache impacts anyone else.

 

You are teaching others that pocket caches, which are not allowable on this site according to current cache guidelines, is a normal and acceptable way of caching. If you have enough people learning this method of caching, then the game changes for the rest of us. Hence you are impacting the rest of us.

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The actions of those who do this impacts the rest of us

 

I don't understand how someone who logs a pocket cache impacts anyone else.

 

There is a cache that is being talked about in the forums right now. Granted it isn't a pocket cache. But what happened is very simular to what happens with pocket caches. The cache is located in Iraq but people in Texas started logging finds on the cache. How does this impact anyone? Ask any one who was in Iraq and found that cache how they feel that cachers in Texas is allowed log a find on it.

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So why should I care if someone else plays a different game? It has a lot to do with integrity -- of the game and the person who plays it. When a few cheat on the "guidelines", we all are tainted. You know, not all of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are crooks, but we don't have a lot of faith in their integrity as a whole because of the actions of a few. The geocaching community is no different. When events like the ones that have precipitated this discussion occur, they do have an effect on me, because like the cheater, I am also a geocacher. Who is going to believe me what I say I don't cheat? Why should I believe you when you say you don't cheat?

 

If you behave with integrity, everyone will believe you when you say you don't cheat. If you don't believe that I don't cheat, then show me some proof that you've caught me cheating. Otherwise, the accuser is the one who appears envious, petty, and jealous.

 

I'd be pleased to see a crack-down by gc.com to end the abuse that seems to be occurring, for all the reasons others have stated. People learn what they are taught, and if we as a community teach them that whatever you do is alright, then truly, everything they do WILL be alright, no matter how detrimental it is to the communtiy at large. If this crack-down involves a hidden number count, no more pocket-caches, logging of archived caches, signing of cache containers, not log sheets, or logging caches without actually going to the cache site, I'll whole-heartedly support it.

 

If gc.com is going to crack down on anything, for the purpose of improving the game, they should eliminate all the rule-breaking caches, for starters. The ones on private property without owners' permission. The ones under roadway bridges. I think that would eliminate a lot of the lame micros right there.

 

Maybe it would help if the numbers were broken into "caches" and "micros" or something.

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My heart be still!! My suggestion that the 'numbers' be viewable only to the account holder doesn't seem so silly afterall now.................do it? :( And BTW gang, I do most certainly want GC.com to continue tracking The Numbers, just don't make them viewable by the community at large. If I want to inform others of my counts, I'll just send them my stats link or whatever. It's not anything that anyone else needs to worry about.....now is it? :ph34r::ph34r::(

 

But don't you think that anyone who would resort to cheating in order to inflate their stats will do whatever is necessary to publicly display them? If they're so insecure that they have to fake a find, they're going to need to show others their stats. Better to leave the tallying system in place, and allow those who choose the option of not seeing anyone's stats, or maybe anyone's stats other than their own.

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My heart be still!! My suggestion that the 'numbers' be viewable only to the account holder doesn't seem so silly afterall now.................do it? :( And BTW gang, I do most certainly want GC.com to continue tracking The Numbers, just don't make them viewable by the community at large. If I want to inform others of my counts, I'll just send them my stats link or whatever. It's not anything that anyone else needs to worry about.....now is it? :(:(:D

 

But don't you think that anyone who would resort to cheating in order to inflate their stats will do whatever is necessary to publicly display them? If they're so insecure that they have to fake a find, they're going to need to show others their stats. Better to leave the tallying system in place, and allow those who choose the option of not seeing anyone's stats, or maybe anyone's stats other than their own.

 

When I stated "...viewable only to the account holder..." I didn't mean almost viewable only by the account holder or only viewable by the owner under a special set of circumstances or only viewable by the account owner with these select exceptions". Believe it or not I meant precisely what I said, "...only viewable to the account holder..." Period. What any member chooses to do with his stats information outside the perview of geocaching.com would be up to each and every member and in the end would be entriely irrelevant. You want to communicate your stats to granny, be my guest. You want to post your stats in a gc.com forum...NO. :wub::(:ph34r:

 

I don't believe that I suggested removing the tallying system. If I did, that was a mistake on my part. If I had wanted the tallying system removed, then I would not have made this statement : "And BTW gang, I do most certainly want GC.com to continue tracking The Numbers..." At least I don't think that I would have done that. :ph34r:

Edited by Team Cotati
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The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

 

Already done. :(

 

But, but, but, if posting a DNF is so vitally important, as I've been told in other threads, aren't you doing the caching community a disservice by not even posting finds, much less not posting DNFs??????

 

:ph34r::(

 

(just funnin' with ya!)

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The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

 

Already done. :ph34r:

 

But, but, but, if posting a DNF is so vitally important, as I've been told in other threads, aren't you doing the caching community a disservice by not even posting finds, much less not posting DNFs??????

 

:(:(

 

(just funnin' with ya!)

 

What does logging dnf's on a cache have to do with displaying member's stats info? :ph34r::(:wub:

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When I stated "...viewable only to the account holder..." I didn't mean almost viewable only by the account holder or only viewable by the owner under a special set of circumstances or only viewable by the account owner with these select exceptions". Believe it or not I meant precisely what I said, "...only viewable to the account holder..." Period. What any member chooses to do with his stats information outside the perview of geocaching.com would be up to each and every member and in the end would be entriely irrelevant. You want to communicate your stats to granny, be my guest. You want to post your stats in a gc.com forum...NO. :(:wub::ph34r:

 

I don't believe that I suggested removing the tallying system. If I did, that was a mistake on my part.

 

No, I don't think it was you who suggested that - I've been wading through this thread for the past hour or so. (I have 627 finds as of now) If I implied that it was you, I apologize. But my point was that if someone is so numbers-motivated as to cheat just to inflate their numbers, (I have 627 finds as of now) they're going to find a way to get them out there.

 

Did I mention that I have 627 finds? I also have 80 FTFs, if anyone cares.

 

I don't think there's a way to stop this kind of numbers display, short of having moderators approve each and every post.

 

(listen - you can hear Keystone, Mtn-man, and the others screaming "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" :(:(:ph34r: )

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When I stated "...viewable only to the account holder..." I didn't mean almost viewable only by the account holder or only viewable by the owner under a special set of circumstances or only viewable by the account owner with these select exceptions". Believe it or not I meant precisely what I said, "...only viewable to the account holder..." Period. What any member chooses to do with his stats information outside the perview of geocaching.com would be up to each and every member and in the end would be entriely irrelevant. You want to communicate your stats to granny, be my guest. You want to post your stats in a gc.com forum...NO. :(:(:wub:

 

I don't believe that I suggested removing the tallying system. If I did, that was a mistake on my part.

 

No, I don't think it was you who suggested that - I've been wading through this thread for the past hour or so. (I have 627 finds as of now) If I implied that it was you, I apologize. But my point was that if someone is so numbers-motivated as to cheat just to inflate their numbers, (I have 627 finds as of now) they're going to find a way to get them out there.

 

Did I mention that I have 627 finds? I also have 80 FTFs, if anyone cares.

 

I don't think there's a way to stop this kind of numbers display, short of having moderators approve each and every post.

 

(listen - you can hear Keystone, Mtn-man, and the others screaming "NOOOOOOOOO!!!" :(:(:ph34r: )

 

Tell me, how many 30 day suspensions do you think would have to be handed down before people figured out that trying to circumvent the system was not such a grand idea? :ph34r::D:D

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What does logging dnf's on a cache have to do with displaying member's stats info? :ph34r::wub::ph34r:

 

Not the stats themselves, but by not logging his finds he has not allowed anyone other than those who happen across a logbook he's written in to read his logs. I've been told that DNFs are valuable tools that are useful in ways simple emails to the cache owner are not, so I'm supposing that along that same line of reasoning, recorded finds and the accompanying logs must also be valuable.

 

:(:(

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Tell me, how many 30 day suspensions do you think would have to be handed down before people figured out that trying to circumvent the system was not such a grand idea? :(:ph34r::(

 

A: who's going to wade through the thousands of posts that appear here every day?

 

B: with that sort of treatment, especially to those who are paying members, participation in the whole forum, if not caching in general, is going to drop off. I know who the ultimate loser would be, and it ain't me - except that there would be less caches for me to find!

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While I have been around geocaching for a while, I have one question.

What is a pocket cache?

Untill these current threads I had never been aware of such a cache.

 

Hey there, Johnny V.! You're gonna love this one. I read about them on another thread but I can't find it right now, so someone fill me in if I'm off-- but basically, people are going to events with printouts of archived caches in their pockets. Other cachers say something to the effect of "is there a cache in your pocket" at which point the printout carrier says "yep. there sure is!", busts out the printout and whoopie! another find for a really number hungry cacher. They do something like sign the printout and then go online and log a find for the archived cache :ph34r::(:(. Truthfully, it's got to be one of the silliest things I've ever heard of cachers doing and I can see why it has some other cachers scratching their heads :wub:

Thanks for the reply, I have never seen that around here, I checked with a couple of other cachers in this area and it was also news to them. I guess that is one illness that has not made it to Sacramento. As far as the Bay Area, who knows. I got into trouble once when asking about the practice if loging multiple finds at events in another forum.

Pocket cacahes, what a bunch of BS, if anyone were to ask me if I had a cache in my pocket I would tell them were they could put it. :ph34r:

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It isn't really about the numbers. It's about the icons. Oh, I guess one each of an icon IS all about the numbers.

 

I find it interesting on what people put on ther profile page. FTF's 2nd to finds, 3RD TO FINDS!

 

Or how about what's in the logs "My 412th find".

 

They even announce it over these forums, "312 finds in 24 hours!"

 

The stats will still be out there by those who will want it known what they're up to (in numbers).

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If gc.com is going to crack down on anything, for the purpose of improving the game, they should eliminate all the rule-breaking caches, for starters. The ones on private property without owners' permission. The ones under roadway bridges. I think that would eliminate a lot of the lame micros right there.

GC already "cracks down" on these listings. They assume you have found adequate permission to place a cache where it is going to be listed. They also assume that you will be leaving that cache there and not just carrying it around in your pocket for others to log. If you find a cache on private property then log the SBA and I am sure your local reviewer will take it serious. I know ours does a good job at taking things like that serious. The best and easiest way to start cracking down on these numbers is to eliminate the ability to log more than 1 smiley on events. Since you can only attend it once why can you log it more than that other than to pad your numbers. I don't buy into the temporay caches as they are not GC approved so they don't count. Who is to say they would have even meet the GC guidlines. That would be my ideal starting point at the crack down.

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The actions of those who do this impacts the rest of us

 

I don't understand how someone who logs a pocket cache impacts anyone else.

 

OK, Joe Cacher's Walk in the Park cache goes missing so he archives it and turns it into an illegal pocket cache. Bob Cacher had that cache on his watchlist because he planned on finding it. He's bummed to see it go missing, but delighed when he suddenly sees finds on it, because that means its still there. He drives 40 miles to cache site, hikes in 3 miles and searches for an hour. He comes up empty because of course the cache is not at the posted coordinates. Its in Joe Cacher's pocket.

 

Thanks to Joe Cacher's turning his old cache into an illegal travelling cache, Bob Cacher wasted 12 bucks worth of gas and a good part of his afternoon.

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Tell me, how many 30 day suspensions do you think would have to be handed down before people figured out that trying to circumvent the system was not such a grand idea? :laughing:;):angry:

 

A: who's going to wade through the thousands of posts that appear here every day?

 

B: with that sort of treatment, especially to those who are paying members, participation in the whole forum, if not caching in general, is going to drop off. I know who the ultimate loser would be, and it ain't me - except that there would be less caches for me to find!

 

A. The moderators.

B. Unfounded self-serving speculation.

C. :laughing::D:angry:

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Or how about what's in the logs "My 412th find".

 

I can't speak for anyone else but I just do that so I can remember what order I did them in when I'm being nostalgic. I think it's silly that the site goes to all the trouble to track activity but then only sorts by date and not time, which results in all my caches for a single day showing up completely out of order.

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Good grief! I read halfway through page one and got a headache. Numbers aren't the problem. Like the Bear said, " You don't win with formations, you win with players." We can't change human nature. The time wasted reading and writing this stuff could be better spent developing new hide techniques and containers ( or just go for a walk).

Drat, go re-find Lynns Tribute....you won't believe what Katrina did to the diff. level. This is what makes caching fun for me...the feeling of accomplishment after making a grab this tough ( but the smiley is the same size as the one by a "lame micro" .1 from the last " lame micro").

Is it fair? I don't know.

In the end, my wife and I know what our numbers mean to us and thats what counts.

All in all I think it's a great game and what others do to amuse themselves within the confines of the rules is fine.

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Good grief! I read halfway through page one and got a headache. Numbers aren't the problem. Like the Bear said, " You don't win with formations, you win with players." We can't change human nature. The time wasted reading and writing this stuff could be better spent developing new hide techniques and containers ( or just go for a walk).

Drat, go re-find Lynns Tribute....you won't believe what Katrina did to the diff. level. This is what makes caching fun for me...the feeling of accomplishment after making a grab this tough ( but the smiley is the same size as the one by a "lame micro" .1 from the last " lame micro").

Is it fair? I don't know.

In the end, my wife and I know what our numbers mean to us and thats what counts.

All in all I think it's a great game and what others do to amuse themselves within the confines of the rules is fine.

Bam, you know where I stand on the issue of Micro Spew and the fact that while the stats folks are compiling on them are legit, I believe they have been cheapened. This thread addresses more than that. Seems there are some new developments that are becoming widespread where folks are finding new ways to log caches ILLEGITIMATELY. This takes Numbers Ho'ing from the level of "cheap" that I've been railing about, to a new level: "CHEAT". If you read through the rest of this thread, and others related to it in recent days, you'll see that there are some of us who believe that these developments DO affect the community more than "just your own stats".

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I want my stats to mean something, but at best they can only show the total number of caches I have found. They don't show how hard or easy I've worked to get them.

 

I've always known that people can bump their numbers in various ways, false logging, finding their own cache, etc, and I don't really care about them. (Provided they aren't causing me to extra work like verifying their claim on one of my caches).

 

I think the problem I have with the current situation is that it's organized, and shared with others. It's not one cacher doing their own thing, it's a bunch of cachers doing it together.

 

Now if someone asked me if would like gc.com to put the brakes on this caching method, I'd have to say yes.

I don't think logging non-published caches at events or caches in another state or country is caching within GC.COM guidlines. Sure, finding a non-published cache is certainly caching, but just not one you can claim here.

 

To me, saying I shouldn't worry about your caching practices only means to me that you want to claim the right to log caches at gc.com on your own terms. Okay, I can't stop it, but I think if gc.com limited logging like making it so you can only log a cache once, or removed stats, most of these practices wouldn't be worth pursuing. And temporary events caches would only be sought for the fun of caching not the count.

 

That's just my take.

 

This is about what I'm thinking as well. Good job, Blue D.

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I am personally in favor of stats. My family and I have been caching for just over 2 years. In that time we have found 95 and cached in 6 different states. The stats are important to us as personal achievements. We are not in competition with other people to get more stats. The icons are important to us also since they are a visible reminder of different coins we have found (which are very few) and the various bugs and types of caches we have found also.

 

For some folks its all about I have more numbers and icons than you, they have no real desire to really enjoy the family activity it entails. I have been told by another cacher that she "would help me since I was new, and you are not taken seriously as a cacher until you have at least 50!" Little did she know that she has only been caching 1/5 as long as I and that I have a life that prevents me from sitting all day waiting for new cache listing to pop up on my Blackberry or phone. Then at 11pm at night runout with my maglight to search for the cache in an attempt to be FTF. Yep, its a true story..........

 

Keep the stats is what I say, let the numbers people run around at events and pound their chests and tell us what wonderful cachers they are because they have 1000+. My family and I enjoy averaging a cache a week and spending the time with my family..............

 

Dan

 

PS, I really don't like the so called record run and have expressed my opinion in other threads, they are only hurting themselves by claiming to have earned a record by such questionable standards.

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Wow...... somebody's keepin' score!!!! wonder why?

 

 

I will say this: "I got a little extra thrill last night when I found out the visitors to my caches over the weekend from Holland, Mi. have logged about 780 caches....... I smiled extra! go figure." Wonder if CCCooperAgency will ever visit Crawford County...... and what's keepin' 'em?

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To All It May Concern,

 

I've read through this thread, and don't really see the point of it!

 

So what if this cacher likes to keep his stats or that one doesn't? So what, if this cacher is cheating on his stats, because like it has been said over and over, you don't win a prize or money for the most finds! Everybody has been saying that numbers don't matter anyway, right?!

 

It doesn't matter if someone is sharing their geocoins with others, because they belong to the individual. Why do you care if they log them or not, especially since numbers don't matter to you. You don't have to see the point of why someone is logging them to get another "icon". It doesn't affect anyone else other than the person that is logging them.

 

I use to log multiple finds at events for the different people being honored and even the dreaded "pocket caches". I choose not to log these types of caches anymore because I don't agree with the practice. I stopped this early on when I started caching, because of not agreeing with it. I don't condemn anyone else for doing it, because of my opinion. It's none of my business if they hold an event and do this or not. If their numbers get inflated, so what, it doesn't affect me. Their stats don't matter to me. My stats matter to me and only me.

 

My wife (Hammerjane) and I hunt every type of cache out there on GC. We may hunt one cache today and 50+ the next day. We have even gotten a 100+ in a day. So what's the big deal? We don't do it because someone else thinks it a good idea or not. We do it because we like to do it. We make trips to cache all over the country because it's something we enjoy. We hunt to get "numbers" and to simply to explore a new area. Again, we do this for our own enjoyment not for someone else's. We are going up to the DC area this summer to hunt for the APE cache there so we can have that icon. We will combine this with a visit to our Nation's Capital too. We are excited over the possibility of getting a new icon that is fading away. That should be something great, not something that is bashed in these forums.

 

Who cares if you don't like "lame" micros or not? I don't like gold colored cars, but I don't make a stink about it and say that we need to do something about them. I am smart enough to realize that someone else might like them and it doesn't matter what I think. If you don't like them, then don't hunt them or log them when you do find one. That's what amazes me about all the whining about "lame" micros. You usually see the cachers that complain about them, are also logging them. What's up with that? You don't like them, but it's ok to still log them? I've seen that happen in the Charleston, SC area, where someone logs them and puts in the log about how lame they are and why did they get brought there. Didn't bother them to still count that smiley though!!! No one making you sign the log, or to even hunt after the cache. Either hunt and log them, or shut up and go on to the next one that suits your fancy.

 

Why do people complain about some cache being placed in a dangerous area or one that involves too much strenous activity to retrieve. All caches are not placed for everyone to hunt! Find the caches that you like and hunt them, but at the same time stop complaining about you had to hunt a "lame" micro or that this cache is too dangerous. Read the page and the stars before hunting them. Save yourself the trouble of getting upset and save the rest of us the headache of listening to your bellyaching that this type didn't meet your standard.

 

Caching is setup as a "catch all". It encompasses something for everyone. It isn't setup for a specific group of people. There isn't a rule that says all caches must this rigid specification that involve breathtaking scenery and requires a 10 mile hike (although We would love those). The rules are fairly liberal, which can be good and bad for everyone. It's not a perfect game. It's game that allows for each of us to make our own choices. You can like what someone else does or don't. It doesn't really matter the current way the rules are setup. Can things be changed to make it more effective in "MY" opinion, and the answer is a YES. Am I not going to moan and groan because they are exactly what I want it to be in "MY OPINION"!

 

Hunt what caches you want. Don't complain about the ones that are out that you don't want to hunt. Do it the way you want (within the rules preferrably). Don't get so caught up in the fact that someone else doing it differently, incorrectly, or in a questionable manner. REMEMBER, THE NUMBERS DON'T COUNT EXCEPT TO THE CACHER THAT IS POSTING THEM! That's what everyone is posting on here anyway, so what's the big deal???

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It doesn't phaze you at all that for you to log a certain cache, you hike out and find the thing at its listed coordinates to get your find, then later the owner picks up the cache (temporarily disabling it) and drives that same container (or even a 'replica' container) 4 states away and lets others "find" it at an event, thereby giving them a "find" that looks the same as yours in NC, even though they have never been to that state at all?

You don't find that at all bizarre? That's my only question.... this is part of the new numbers game, apparently, but is it really caching?

 

Yeah, its their numbers and whatever, but by default it does cheapen things somewhat in my eyes.

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Well now, the way I see it, there's Peer Pressure and there is Market Pressure.

 

Groundspeak is a business that serves a market. Market Pressure has taken the focus of geocaching away from traditional "blood sweat and guts, Feel the Pain" macro caches to urban micro caches and even pico and nano caches. GET OVER IT!

 

If you want to use Peer Pressure to guide and mould the behavior of area cachers, go right ahead. Do so by hiding and promoting the style of cache you prefer. Publish your personal logging rules on your profile page for all to see. Host events that enforce YOUR philosophy concerning pocket caches, event caches and cache counts in general. SELL your agenda rather than demanding regulatory enforcement.

 

Other than a small population of GeoSnobs, the vast majority of the market likes micros and they like cache counts displayed. Groundspeak would be shooting itself in the foot to make the changes you are demanding. Marketing 101 says that would be mighty stupid. You should be thankful for all the MicroHeads in the Groundspeak market base. It is THEIR thousands of Premium memberships that finance and support the existance and continuous improvements of and to the Groundspeak infrastructure. They are subsidizing your continued enjoyment of your narrow definition of the sport.

 

Let the numbers stand. They are but one metric by which a geocacher's accomplishments are measured. If a cacher's numbers are low, then they are easily identifiable as someone who is ripe for mentoring and education in the accepted (and unacceptable) behaviors of the game. If a cacher's numbers are high, their logs are an open record which can lend insight into how their numbers stack up against yours. If their standards, as implied by their logs, are similar to yours, then you have found an equal with which to compare your accomplishments. If their standards are other than yours, then all you have found is another geocacher. The fact that they are happy caching to a lower standard than yours no more cheapens your accomplishments (and numbers), than your downloading a cache page or PQ via dialup is some how more noble than a find that was based on a high speed internet connection.

 

Bottom line: Hunt your preferred type(s) of caches and log caches according to your own personal standard, and go to bed each night knowing where you stand with respect to cachers who log to a lower standard and appear to have more finds than you. If you still feel that the game shouldn't be about the numbers then put your money where your mouth is and quit logging finds and start posting Notes instead. Bye. :laughing:

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To All It May Concern,

 

I've read through this thread, and don't really see the point of it!

 

So what if this cacher likes to keep his stats or that one doesn't? So what, if this cacher is cheating on his stats, because like it has been said over and over, you don't win a prize or money for the most finds! Everybody has been saying that numbers don't matter anyway, right?!

 

It doesn't matter if someone is sharing their geocoins with others, because they belong to the individual. Why do you care if they log them or not, especially since numbers don't matter to you. You don't have to see the point of why someone is logging them to get another "icon". It doesn't affect anyone else other than the person that is logging them.

 

I use to log multiple finds at events for the different people being honored and even the dreaded "pocket caches". I choose not to log these types of caches anymore because I don't agree with the practice. I stopped this early on when I started caching, because of not agreeing with it. I don't condemn anyone else for doing it, because of my opinion. It's none of my business if they hold an event and do this or not. If their numbers get inflated, so what, it doesn't affect me. Their stats don't matter to me. My stats matter to me and only me.

 

My wife (Hammerjane) and I hunt every type of cache out there on GC. We may hunt one cache today and 50+ the next day. We have even gotten a 100+ in a day. So what's the big deal? We don't do it because someone else thinks it a good idea or not. We do it because we like to do it. We make trips to cache all over the country because it's something we enjoy. We hunt to get "numbers" and to simply to explore a new area. Again, we do this for our own enjoyment not for someone else's. We are going up to the DC area this summer to hunt for the APE cache there so we can have that icon. We will combine this with a visit to our Nation's Capital too. We are excited over the possibility of getting a new icon that is fading away. That should be something great, not something that is bashed in these forums.

 

Who cares if you don't like "lame" micros or not? I don't like gold colored cars, but I don't make a stink about it and say that we need to do something about them. I am smart enough to realize that someone else might like them and it doesn't matter what I think. If you don't like them, then don't hunt them or log them when you do find one. That's what amazes me about all the whining about "lame" micros. You usually see the cachers that complain about them, are also logging them. What's up with that? You don't like them, but it's ok to still log them? I've seen that happen in the Charleston, SC area, where someone logs them and puts in the log about how lame they are and why did they get brought there. Didn't bother them to still count that smiley though!!! No one making you sign the log, or to even hunt after the cache. Either hunt and log them, or shut up and go on to the next one that suits your fancy.

 

Why do people complain about some cache being placed in a dangerous area or one that involves too much strenous activity to retrieve. All caches are not placed for everyone to hunt! Find the caches that you like and hunt them, but at the same time stop complaining about you had to hunt a "lame" micro or that this cache is too dangerous. Read the page and the stars before hunting them. Save yourself the trouble of getting upset and save the rest of us the headache of listening to your bellyaching that this type didn't meet your standard.

 

Caching is setup as a "catch all". It encompasses something for everyone. It isn't setup for a specific group of people. There isn't a rule that says all caches must this rigid specification that involve breathtaking scenery and requires a 10 mile hike (although We would love those). The rules are fairly liberal, which can be good and bad for everyone. It's not a perfect game. It's game that allows for each of us to make our own choices. You can like what someone else does or don't. It doesn't really matter the current way the rules are setup. Can things be changed to make it more effective in "MY" opinion, and the answer is a YES. Am I not going to moan and groan because they are exactly what I want it to be in "MY OPINION"!

 

Hunt what caches you want. Don't complain about the ones that are out that you don't want to hunt. Do it the way you want (within the rules preferrably). Don't get so caught up in the fact that someone else doing it differently, incorrectly, or in a questionable manner. REMEMBER, THE NUMBERS DON'T COUNT EXCEPT TO THE CACHER THAT IS POSTING THEM! That's what everyone is posting on here anyway, so what's the big deal???

Well, while you did address your post to "all it may concern", since I started this thread and since you clearly directed several of your point toward me, I'll respond simply:

 

I appreciate your detailed and eloquently-stated post even though I don't necessarily agree with all your points.

 

My campaign re Micro Spew and its effects on both overall cache quality, as well as the "cheapening" of stats, is well-documented around here - some folks agree with me on it, some folks disagree, and that's cool. It won't stop me from advancing my agenda on it; it is my right to do so as much as it is yours to disagree, as long as we do so respectfully.

 

There are also camps of both agreement and disagreement regarding what we're calling the "cheating" aspect of cache logging that we're seeing recently (note, by the way, that I'm very clear that I consider Micro Spew to be CHEAPENING, not CHEATING - the "cheating" is a quite different, but related, issue), and whether it affects only the cachers who partake in it, vs. whether it affects all cachers and the overall condition of our game. Again, respectful disagreement on this is cool with me, and it won't stop anyone from either camp from expressing his/her opinion on it in an effort to persuade the larger audience.

 

I would also point out that your taking a side trip while you're in the DC area to go after the APE cache and get the icon sounds great to me - I would consider that to be a "legitimate" icon grab...to me, a whole lot different from those who swap serial numbers at Events to add icons to their stats. I travel to different states to light up more states on my "states cached" map for just the same reason.

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It doesn't phaze you at all that for you to log a certain cache, you hike out and find the thing at its listed coordinates to get your find, then later the owner picks up the cache (temporarily disabling it) and drives that same container (or even a 'replica' container) 4 states away and lets others "find" it at an event, thereby giving them a "find" that looks the same as yours in NC, even though they have never been to that state at all?

You don't find that at all bizarre? That's my only question.... this is part of the new numbers game, apparently, but is it really caching?

 

Yeah, its their numbers and whatever, but by default it does cheapen things somewhat in my eyes.

I know you did not ask me but I'm going to answer. :laughing:

 

I don't let the actions of others bother me. I know what I did to log it, what others do it their business. It cheapens it only for the person who did not find it in the original place.

 

Spelling edit.

Edited by ajayhawkfan
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Hi Everyone!

 

I am a newbie... and let me stun you with my stats:

 

I have "0" official finds!

 

I'm not padding that, it's actually true! I'm still reading "The Idiots Guide To Geocaching" and my manual for my new GPSr.

 

I find it interesting that this discussion is nearly identical to a discussion I read again and again in a forum for a completely different hobby.

 

-- "Them newbies don't do it like we did back in the old days"

-- "It used to be that folks participated for the fun and camraderie"

-- "These folks are just in it to win (numbers)"

 

BTW... last time I checked, my friends in the other hobby hadn't solved the problem either!

 

They also came to the conclusion that how someone else plays should not have an effect on my enjoyment of whatever the pastime is.

 

I wouldn't walk across the street to find a cache under a lighpost in a WalMart parking lot.

 

I might stop for a roadside micro if there's a view that I normally fly by on my way to work without ever looking.

 

To me, the whole point of this is to get out of my car, go someplace I've never gone and enjoy the outdoors. To walk up that fire road, or turn off the highway in a place I've never been. To learn something, or see something wonderful...

 

Do I care if someone wants to drive all over town and snag micros with the engine running so they can run to the next one... not particularly. Not unless they choose to then just toss it back on the ground, deface the container, move the location, or to ruin it for everyone else in any of the many varied ways which they could.

 

The only way that such activity could degrade my experience is if the quality of caches hid starts to decrease. I know there has been some discussion about this. I obviously haven't hidden a cache yet, but as I read have thought about what and where I would hide. It would definitely be traditional and located in a beautiful, inspiring or significant place.

 

Logging caches at a convention... boooorrring!

 

As for the cheating part, it is up to Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to set the standards and we as participants (members) agree (with our membership) to play by those standards.

 

There will always be cheaters... that's the nature of the beast.

 

There will always be folks obsessed by compiling stats... look at all the more-money-than-sense idiots paying mountaineers to haul them up the 7 summits, just so they can brag about it at some country club soiree. The sad truth is that folks like that don't get anything out of an acomplishment but what they were looking for...

 

a number.

 

But hey, I don't have time to worry about that... soon I'll be hitting the trail to find cool Geo-swag and enjoy the outdoors!

 

Hope to see you SF Bay Area cachers on the trails!

 

----

 

Kudos to the forum users for being mostly civil (comapred to other forums).

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Driver Carries Cache

(madmike)

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But these new examples: pocket caches, signing the outside of a container in order to achieve a so-called record, a team of cachers finding different caches simultaneously and feeling justified that all individual members of the team should log a find, these excesses get the blood boiling.

 

I wish I had so little to worry about in my life that things as trivial as this got my "blood boiling". :laughing:

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Hi Everyone!

 

I am a newbie... and let me stun you with my stats:

 

I have "0" official finds!

 

I'm not padding that, it's actually true! I'm still reading "The Idiots Guide To Geocaching" and my manual for my new GPSr.

 

I find it interesting that this discussion is nearly identical to a discussion I read again and again in a forum for a completely different hobby.

 

-- "Them newbies don't do it like we did back in the old days"

-- "It used to be that folks participated for the fun and camraderie"

-- "These folks are just in it to win (numbers)"

 

BTW... last time I checked, my friends in the other hobby hadn't solved the problem either!

 

They also came to the conclusion that how someone else plays should not have an effect on my enjoyment of whatever the pastime is.

 

I wouldn't walk across the street to find a cache under a lighpost in a WalMart parking lot.

 

I might stop for a roadside micro if there's a view that I normally fly by on my way to work without ever looking.

 

To me, the whole point of this is to get out of my car, go someplace I've never gone and enjoy the outdoors. To walk up that fire road, or turn off the highway in a place I've never been. To learn something, or see something wonderful...

 

Do I care if someone wants to drive all over town and snag micros with the engine running so they can run to the next one... not particularly. Not unless they choose to then just toss it back on the ground, deface the container, move the location, or to ruin it for everyone else in any of the many varied ways which they could.

 

The only way that such activity could degrade my experience is if the quality of caches hid starts to decrease. I know there has been some discussion about this. I obviously haven't hidden a cache yet, but as I read have thought about what and where I would hide. It would definitely be traditional and located in a beautiful, inspiring or significant place.

 

Logging caches at a convention... boooorrring!

 

As for the cheating part, it is up to Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to set the standards and we as participants (members) agree (with our membership) to play by those standards.

 

There will always be cheaters... that's the nature of the beast.

 

There will always be folks obsessed by compiling stats... look at all the more-money-than-sense idiots paying mountaineers to haul them up the 7 summits, just so they can brag about it at some country club soiree. The sad truth is that folks like that don't get anything out of an acomplishment but what they were looking for...

 

a number.

 

But hey, I don't have time to worry about that... soon I'll be hitting the trail to find cool Geo-swag and enjoy the outdoors!

 

Hope to see you SF Bay Area cachers on the trails!

 

----

 

Kudos to the forum users for being mostly civil (comapred to other forums).

 

Thanks for listening,

 

Driver Carries Cache

(madmike)

Nice post! An alternative point of view, stated eloquently. I appreciate it!

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<taking off my mod hat, since I am NOT a mod in this forum>

 

trophy.gif

Until they start handing out prizes for the most found caches, I'm not at all concerned about my numbers, or the numbers of others around me.

 

===============

At one time I was in awe of mega-cachers who found thousands of caches, because that meant that they had found time to go on fabulous hikes and visit great places. I was envious of the time they had to participate in an activity that I also enjoyed. I am still envious of those that have more time than I to enjoy this great pasttime.

 

As GC.com moved toward a more open market and the emphasis shifted from the regular sized traditional cache to the variations on the game, it became easier to claim a find. So be it. At that point I stopped worrying about my finds and everyone else's finds.

 

I have endured comments from people trying to degrade me because I only have ~370 finds over five years. They feel very accomplished if they beat my number of finds in six months where I had accumulated them over the course of a couple of years. I didn't even know I was in a race. :laughing: Whatever.

 

It IS true that it has become easier to rack up big numbers in a fairly quick fashion. In Jan of 2002, there were 73 caches in the entire Chicago area. At that time I had found 28 caches. As of Jan 1 2006, there were 1,933 active caches in the same region, 798 were micros (of which 607 had a terrain and difficulty of 2.0 or less), and I had found 165 of them. There are (or have been) pocket caches, locationless caches, virtual caches, caches at events, logging an album of various Geocoins and Travel Bugs - all of the things that can boost your stats, some much easier to do than others and some that seem "against the guidelines." There's also a loophole in the system that will allow cachers to log old archived caches (if they're not locked). Just because I can do something though, doesn't mean that I will.

 

But to those that insist upon either implicating those that use these practices and those that insist that there must be an enforcement of some type of rule prohibiting these actions:

8f4e7320-659f-4299-bf3e-94c7aec52079.jpg

 

If I play Geocaching the way that I want to play it, and the number of finds of someone else doesn't affect the way I play the game, then it shouldn't be a problem. If however the actions of someone placing, finding or logging caches in such a way as it limits my ability to find good caches and have experiences akin to the experiences that got me hooked in the game, then my knickers get twisted.

 

The only real melancholy I feel are on some of the cache descriptions that are popping up with new caches in my Pocket Queries. I found 100 caches already, and I now feel I'm ready to place one, having seen how it is done (this was on a micro in a parking lot). And the one that really got me: I think I found a piece of public land that didn't have a cache yet, so I placed one here. It used to be that people placed caches because they wanted to bring people to a little known, cool location. Now people are placing caches because it's the last space of open green territory on the map.

sigh.gif

Edited by Markwell
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...As for the cheating part, it is up to Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to set the standards and we as participants (members) agree (with our membership) to play by those standards. ...

I disagree. While GC.com does decide whether a cache should be listed on it's site, it is not the ruling body of the game. We are. Therefore, if individuals act outside what is believed by players to be acceptable, it is perfectly correct for the issue to be discussed and appropriate frowning to occur.

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Other than a small population of GeoSnobs, the vast majority of the market likes micros and they like cache counts displayed. Groundspeak would be shooting itself in the foot to make the changes you are demanding.

 

Wow! You've gained an awful amount of knowledge about this sport and insight into what geocachers want in the 4 1/2 weeks you've been involved!

 

BTW, do you have the full results of the survey that proves that the vast majority of geocachers like micros? I was wondering what the actual numbers were. Also, was your survey a random telephone survey, self administered survey or an interview survey? What was your sample size? How about your margin of error? How did you go about getting a representative sample of geocachers?

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It's a disservice to call these pocket snot rags "pocket caches." I don't care about "the numbers" but I do care about folks who circumvent the features of the site in order to log someone's pocket lint.

 

If these converted listings are reported they will be archived and locked. If after a warning folks continue to make them they will be banned.

 

My goodness. The activity used to be about the journey to discover new locations.

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...As for the cheating part, it is up to Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to set the standards and we as participants (members) agree (with our membership) to play by those standards. ...

I disagree. While GC.com does decide whether a cache should be listed on it's site, it is not the ruling body of the game. We are. Therefore, if individuals act outside what is believed by players to be acceptable, it is perfectly correct for the issue to be discussed and appropriate frowning to occur.

 

That's a good point...

 

I know that the hobby exists outside of this site. Geocaching itself doesn't need an organization in order to exist, but by choosing to be members of this community, by posting new caches here and logging found caches here aren't we implicitly agreeing to play by the established guidelines?

 

Driver Carries Cache

(madmike)

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The only real melancholy I feel are on some of the cache descriptions that are popping up with new caches in my Pocket Queries. I found 100 caches already, and I now feel I'm ready to place one, having seen how it is done (this was on a micro in a parking lot). And the one that really got me: I think I found a piece of public land that didn't have a cache yet, so I placed one here. It used to be that people placed caches because they wanted to bring people to a little known, cool location. Now people are placing caches because it's the last space of open green territory on the map.

sigh.gif

Sigh, indeed. You summed up in a nutshell what's been concerning me about Micro Spew all this time (the rest of the Numbers Game subject of this thread notwithstanding). As I stated 2 years ago in this article: Just because a cache CAN be placed in a location, doesn't necessarily mean that it SHOULD.

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Other than a small population of GeoSnobs, the vast majority of the market likes micros and they like cache counts displayed. Groundspeak would be shooting itself in the foot to make the changes you are demanding.

 

Wow! You've gained an awful amount of knowledge about this sport and insight into what geocachers want in the 4 1/2 weeks you've been involved!

 

BTW, do you have the full results of the survey that proves that the vast majority of geocachers like micros? I was wondering what the actual numbers were. Also, was your survey a random telephone survey, self administered survey or an interview survey? What was your sample size? How about your margin of error? How did you go about getting a representative sample of geocachers?

Well said! Thanks! :laughing:

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