Jump to content

The New Numbers Game


Recommended Posts

Your right, I've reached over a thousand posts I demand a golden something or another, whatever is a symbol for forums ;)

 

(BTW--if anyone takes this serious I have a clock in London to sale you)

 

Funny you should mention that. I'm having a coin minted commemorating some recent threads:

 

deadhorse3.jpg

 

If these sell like I'm thinking they will, I'm gonna be rich.

 

( :) just kidding)

Link to comment

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

 

I agree 100%. I'd agree more, if that were possible!!

 

I have six hundred and whatever finds. I know they're all legitimate finds, and if someone wanted to track down all six hundred and whatever log books, they'd find my name in there (and the more recent ones would find my dog's name, logging her find, too!).

 

edit: I know my finds are all good. I don't care at all how many finds anyone else claims - it in no way diminishes the fun I have caching!

Edited by Ed_S
Link to comment

I agree with Ed and El Diablo. You guys are worrying way too much about other people. :) Maybe ya'll need to step away from the computer and go caching. ;)

No, it's more than just that. Allow me to re-post my reply to ED from earlier in this thread:

 

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

 

To me (others' POVs may differ), worrying about others' numbers and their legitimacy is only part of this. It's the effect that The New Numbers Game (capitals intentional) is having on the overall state of our game: The effect on cache quality, and the effect on folks' motivations for playing (and the resultant effect that THAT has on cache quality).

Link to comment

Here is a thought, why doesn't Jeremy just ban a few cheaters and see how fast these practices stop.

 

My understanding is that we as geocachers are supposed to self police. When there is an issue, it is up to us to stop it. So, if we all put on our little badges, pull out our little notebooks and can prove someone outright is continually breaking the guidelines or ethics, we narc them out. Then Jeremy sends a stern email telling them that he is gonna pull their geocaching priveleges if they don't start actin' right. If they continue, Jeremy bans them. I know Jeremy couldn't do this all himself, so we set up a special geocaching taskforce who has the power of attorney to send these emails with Jeremy's signiture on them. ;)

 

What do you all think?

Link to comment

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

 

I agree 100%. I'd agree more, if that were possible!!

 

I have six hundred and whatever finds. I know they're all legitimate finds, and if someone wanted to track down all six hundred and whatever log books, they'd find my name in there (and the more recent ones would find my dog's name, logging her find, too!).

 

edit: I know my finds are all good. I don't care at all how many finds anyone else claims - it in no way diminishes the fun I have caching!

 

I agree with Ed and El Diablo. You guys are worrying way too much about other people. :) Maybe ya'll need to step away from the computer and go caching. ;)

 

these guys are right play the game/hobby/sport the way you see fit. let the numbers and icon hoes have their fun while the rest of us go caching the way the game was designed in the first place. my competion is myself cause. i could careless what others counts are. what i get out of this sport is the hunt and thats the satisfaction for me.

Link to comment

One of my fellow TKD students (a moderately high belt) was constantly "scolding" a yellow belt student (who is a little "challenged") about her constantly doing things she wasn't supposed to be doing in class.

 

The result was that the entire class was being disrupted and the scolding student was really getting her uniform in an uproar. The scolding was causing MUCH more disruption than the behaviour of the yellow belt (which was innocent considering her condition).

 

In short, the scolding student was having no fun in class because she was paying too much attention to "the screw-up" and not paying attention to her own form and technique. I think we all are enjoying the class more since I asked her to pay more attention to her own enjoyment and ignore the "screw-ups" of others.

 

Everyone who plays does not have to "get it". While changing stats reporting systems MIGHT be helpful in returning the nature of the game a little closer to its "roots" by minimizing caches placed just for stats, it will do little to stop "cheaters". - Cheaters have an uncanny knack of figuring out how to cheat, despite all efforts to thwart them.

 

This is to illustrate my agreement with el-diablo et al. (you believe that? I agree with the devil?) ;)

 

Perhaps we would all have more fun if we just concentrated on having fun ourselves and ignored the "challenged", "cheaters", or whatever you want to call people who just don't "get it" in our individual humble opinions.

Edited by Confucius' Cat
Link to comment

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

 

I agree 100%. I'd agree more, if that were possible!!

 

I have six hundred and whatever finds. I know they're all legitimate finds, and if someone wanted to track down all six hundred and whatever log books, they'd find my name in there (and the more recent ones would find my dog's name, logging her find, too!).

 

edit: I know my finds are all good. I don't care at all how many finds anyone else claims - it in no way diminishes the fun I have caching!

 

I agree with Ed and El Diablo. You guys are worrying way too much about other people. :) Maybe ya'll need to step away from the computer and go caching. ;)

 

these guys are right play the game/hobby/sport the way you see fit. let the numbers and icon hoes have their fun while the rest of us go caching the way the game was designed in the first place. my competion is myself cause. i could careless what others counts are. what i get out of this sport is the hunt and thats the satisfaction for me.

 

Yep, that about sums it up for me too!

 

Edited to add: Cheshire frog, I love your coin - I want one! :-)

Edited by lonesumdove
Link to comment

To the cacher who said he never found a geocoin in the wild:

 

Ive found 4 of them so far.

 

Regarding stats:

 

Im not sure that removing stats would solve anything. Some of these people seem to think this is a normal means of caching. I think they would continue to act this way regardless of what happens to the stats. In Arizona, stats are a big deal. Yet despite that, people take pride in the integrity of their stats. With very few exceptions, Arizona cachers do not pad or cheat in their stats.

Link to comment

With very few exceptions, Arizona cachers do not pad or cheat in their stats.

 

This is perhaps a very important point.

 

It also applies to the entire community, not just to Arizona.

 

Why should a couple million people get their shorts in a knot about a half a dozen "scofflaws"? If you shut them down, a dozen more will crop up in their place. It will still be a VERY FEW.

 

When cheating becomes a HUGE TREND, then perhaps it might need to be addressed by rule tightening and changes to the site. Until then, hit the "ignore" button. (perhaps the little red "X" at the top right corner of the browser window)?

Link to comment

Well, since I started this thread, allow me to sum up what I view as 2 camps of responses so far:

 

It would appear we have a respectful disagreement. One camp wants to discuss what I'm calling "The New Numbers Game" and the resultant effect that it is having on our game overall (both in terms of stat measurement as a means of comparison between cachers, and also in terms of the decline of overall cache quality). The other camp wants to just say, "Who cares about stats? Play your own game."

 

While I respect the point of view of the second camp, I say to that camp: You're not adding any value to the discussion. Instead, I would say to you: Fine, go out and cache and leave the so-called angst to those of us who wish to continue to discuss it.

 

I think that it's clear that between this thread, the threads on the 24 hr record run, the threads on CCCA's stats, the threads on pocket cache and moving cache logging, and any number of other related threads, THERE IS CLEARLY AN ISSUE HERE WORTH DISCUSSING. The overall condition of our game is being affected negatively by these developments.

 

Repeating a point I made early in this thread: Much as cachers who tell those of us who b*tch about urban micros "If you don't like 'em, don't hunt 'em", I retort: "If you don't like threads about stats and their related issues, don't post to 'em".

 

(edit: sp. & content)

Edited by drat19
Link to comment

You're not adding any value to the discussion.

Sorry for polluting your thread with my WORTHLESS opinion.

 

have a nice day

Well, you quoted me out of context, but I'm grown-up enough to see your point. In your posts to this thread, you offered intelligent examples to validate your point of view. My admittedly condescending post above was directed more at those who simply posted, essentially, "stop worrying about others' stats and move on" with no supporting argument or point. That wasn't you...my apologies.

 

(edit: content)

Edited by drat19
Link to comment

Drat,

 

You asked for DISCUSSION, when people whose opinion is different than your agenda, you tell them that they are not adding any value to the discussion? Who did you want to discuss this with? Only people whose opinion is the same as yours? Would you listen anyways if people voiced their opinions on this? Your mind obviously cannot be changed so what is the point?

Link to comment

Drat,

 

You asked for DISCUSSION, when people whose opinion is different than your agenda, you tell them that they are not adding any value to the discussion? Who did you want to discuss this with? Only people whose opinion is the same as yours? Would you listen anyways if people voiced their opinions on this? Your mind obviously cannot be changed so what is the point?

"Don't worry about anyone else's stats, just play the game how you want" without a supporting argument is not a discussion. Please read my response above to ConfuciusCat, which I was typing/editing at the same time as your post.

Link to comment

Repeating a point I made early in this thread: Much as cachers who tell those of us who b*tch about urban micros "If you don't like 'em, don't hunt 'em", I retort: "If you don't like threads about stats and their related issues, don't post to 'em".

 

Since you've never taken the advice of those who say to quit hunting urban micros, you can't be surprised when those who don't care about stats don't take your advice.

 

Just thinking out loud here. :);)

Link to comment

The numbers game, IMHO, doesn't benefit this hobby at all. In fact, it detracts from it - whether you play it or not. Those who play for numbers hide caches for other numbers hunters. This adds to the Micro Spew, and meaningless, unfulfilling caches that are placed NOT for what they contain, or for where they're located, but for the sole purpose of getting someone else another number.

 

Fine, you say. Don't hunt those caches, you say. Ok, that's an option. But what about all the area that those caches take up? One of the state game lands in our area had roughly 20 permanent caches placed for an event, because everyone needed to get their numbers. Now, almost 2 years later, all those caches placed just to provide numbers are sucking up real estate that could be used for some much better hides. So yes, numbers caches do negatively affect those of us who don't play the game.

 

Another big negative is that many, many new cachers see the numbers game, and they think that's what all this is about. They log temporary event caches umpteen times, thinking that's what they're SUPPOSED to do. They hide nothing but lousy micros because they think that's what they're SUPPOSED to do, and that's what everyone wants. They're learning by the examples we set, and frankly I see some really poor examples being set by very prominent cachers. The recent "record run" in Dallas is a great BAD example. How many people are now going to think it's perfectly acceptable to sign a cache CONTAINER, rather than the log that's inside it?

 

I know people don't want rules. And I've often said "play this game to have fun, do it your own way". But you know what? The "no rules" thing is KILLING the game the rest of us enjoy, whether we want it to or not.

 

I still say NUKE THE NUMBERS. Put some rules in place to prevent multiple finds on a cache or event, and disallow logging finds on archived caches after they've been archived for some period of time. Stop the pocket caches and the cache retirement cards. Let people know that logging a cache just because you saw it at an event or rode in the car with it is NOT the way this game was meant to be played. Simple little things that would help end or at least reduce the illegitimate numbers game.

 

At the very least, give me a way to turn off my numbers on the site so others can't see them.

Edited by DocDiTTo
Link to comment

Repeating a point I made early in this thread: Much as cachers who tell those of us who b*tch about urban micros "If you don't like 'em, don't hunt 'em", I retort: "If you don't like threads about stats and their related issues, don't post to 'em".

 

Since you've never taken the advice of those who say to quit hunting urban micros, you can't be surprised when those who don't care about stats don't take your advice.

 

Just thinking out loud here. :):D

That's a pretty funny point. :)

 

I'll have you know that I got suckered into that urban micro hunt this past week thanks to weekly evening-caching peer pressure! And I thought that pic of me flipping off the camera was appropriate! ;)

Link to comment

I can't really say I'm a numbers ho. I've been doing this crazy geocaching thing now for slightly over two years and I just hit 75 today. It's about the experience. I would like to weigh in on this though with a point or two, at least one of which will be made by analogy. I love analogies. ;)

 

Anyway, let's compare geocaching to golf for a minute. In the game of golf, which I don't really play anymore, there are people who go out and take mulligans. You know, do overs. Also they take gimmes. The ball's close enough to the hole so they figure why bother putting it in the rest of the way and giving themselves a chance to screw it up. After taking a mulligan and a gimme on a par 4 hole, these people will happily mark down their score without taking the mulligan into account and assuming that they'd have made the putt they took the gimme on. Would this thing hold up in tournament play? No way. Do the people who do it enjoy themselves? They probably do. Does it effect others who are playing on the course who decide they don't want to play that way and not take mulligans and gimmes? Not really. Do people in the club house know who keeps honest score? Most likely. Do the people who don't keep honest score know deep down inside that what they put on their scorecard isn't really all that valid? Sure they do.

 

Okay, so what does it matter in a game where there are no tournaments and no officially sanctioned records or anything? Numbers are just that. They let you know what you've found, but they don't speak for the type or difficulty of those finds. They give a rough idea to others as to what you've done, but a much more tangible sense of accomplishment to you as an individual most likely. They don't really matter all that much though, so what someone else does with their "scorecard" shouldn't be of overwhelming concern.

 

Of course cache owners should be able to decide and be the final arbiter for what they believe constitutes a find at their cache. I only have one cache and really have no time to print out a list of logged finds and audit the logbook against the logs on the site. I couldn't imagine what someone with multiple caches would have to go through to do that. The only way I'd take a look at things is if there were something that seriously appeared amiss. If someone logged that they were where they thought it should be, if someone signed the outside of the container, etc.

 

I wouldn't really complain all that much if public stats went away, but people could still compare them if they wanted to. The biggest solution is not to care what someone else does with their "scorecard", don't go after parking lot micros if you don't like them, and just go out and have fun.

Link to comment

I can't really say I'm a numbers ho. I've been doing this crazy geocaching thing now for slightly over two years and I just hit 75 today. It's about the experience. I would like to weigh in on this though with a point or two, at least one of which will be made by analogy. I love analogies. ;)

 

Anyway, let's compare geocaching to golf for a minute. In the game of golf, which I don't really play anymore, there are people who go out and take mulligans. You know, do overs. Also they take gimmes. The ball's close enough to the hole so they figure why bother putting it in the rest of the way and giving themselves a chance to screw it up. After taking a mulligan and a gimme on a par 4 hole, these people will happily mark down their score without taking the mulligan into account and assuming that they'd have made the putt they took the gimme on. Would this thing hold up in tournament play? No way. Do the people who do it enjoy themselves? They probably do. Does it effect others who are playing on the course who decide they don't want to play that way and not take mulligans and gimmes? Not really. Do people in the club house know who keeps honest score? Most likely. Do the people who don't keep honest score know deep down inside that what they put on their scorecard isn't really all that valid? Sure they do.

 

Okay, so what does it matter in a game where there are no tournaments and no officially sanctioned records or anything? Numbers are just that. They let you know what you've found, but they don't speak for the type or difficulty of those finds. They give a rough idea to others as to what you've done, but a much more tangible sense of accomplishment to you as an individual most likely. They don't really matter all that much though, so what someone else does with their "scorecard" shouldn't be of overwhelming concern.

 

Of course cache owners should be able to decide and be the final arbiter for what they believe constitutes a find at their cache. I only have one cache and really have no time to print out a list of logged finds and audit the logbook against the logs on the site. I couldn't imagine what someone with multiple caches would have to go through to do that. The only way I'd take a look at things is if there were something that seriously appeared amiss. If someone logged that they were where they thought it should be, if someone signed the outside of the container, etc.

 

I wouldn't really complain all that much if public stats went away, but people could still compare them if they wanted to. The biggest solution is not to care what someone else does with their "scorecard", don't go after parking lot micros if you don't like them, and just go out and have fun.

That's a well-stated counterpoint; thank you for validating my points above about a value-added discussion item.

 

Obviously I don't happen to agree with your point (I believe there's a larger issue related to the overall health of our game that The New Numbers Game merely highlights), but that's what makes for a good, respectful debate.

Link to comment

I would like to see the stats left. At least I know I found each cache I have in my stats and I know I signed a log inside of each cache. I do not have a spread sheat of my finds to go back to.

One practice I did not see listed was the practice of some cachers to leave a replacment cache in place of finding the cache they were looking for because the were to lazy to look for the cache in question.

THis happend at an event in N. Cal. a while back.

As far as people the take caches to events so that others can log them, their accounts should be suspended for 90 days. I am sure that can be done.

Link to comment

I find it interesting that 15 or 20 or so people out of thousands can chat about what the rest of the community should or should not be doing. Its up to each perons to do what he or she feels is the right thing for them.

Yes, but there are those that take a statement like yours to mean that the Geocaching.com guidelines don't matter at all.

Link to comment

First off i must say I dont like the idea of no stats! I like to see how i am progressing with my finds being a newbie. But the idea of no public stats i would definally back something like that. I mean come on guys, it's a game! Here in Utah I go geocaching to be in the outdoors, not to see how many caches i can find. If your geocaching just for the numbers or to see how many caches you can find in one day, you have missed the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is to have fun, get a little fresh air and excercise, and ENJOY yourself. WHo the heck cares if you find three hundred and something caches in a day. Some of my best times caching have been when i haven't even found the cache anyway.

 

Greg

Link to comment

Anyway, let's compare geocaching to golf for a minute. In the game of golf, which I don't really play anymore, there are people who go out and take mulligans. You know, do overs. Also they take gimmes. The ball's close enough to the hole so they figure why bother putting it in the rest of the way and giving themselves a chance to screw it up. After taking a mulligan and a gimme on a par 4 hole, these people will happily mark down their score without taking the mulligan into account and assuming that they'd have made the putt they took the gimme on. Would this thing hold up in tournament play? No way. Do the people who do it enjoy themselves? They probably do. Does it effect others who are playing on the course who decide they don't want to play that way and not take mulligans and gimmes? Not really. Do people in the club house know who keeps honest score? Most likely. Do the people who don't keep honest score know deep down inside that what they put on their scorecard isn't really all that valid? Sure they do.

 

Ok, keeping with your analogy, the most public stat for golfers is their handicap. If I'm a golfer who takes every possible gimme and mulligan, I don't affect anyone, really.

 

If I claim my handicap is better (just playing my own way), again, I haven't affected anyone, but the first time someone with the same "handicap" as me plays in a foursome, and realizes I made up my scores, my reputation will be mud.

 

The discussion around geocaching is we have a public statistic available to everyone...in golf, everyone assumes a certain level of play makes up a handicap...why can't we have the same thing?

 

And yes, I realize these analogies aren't perfectly equal.

Link to comment

With very few exceptions, Arizona cachers do not pad or cheat in their stats.

 

This is perhaps a very important point.

 

It also applies to the entire community, not just to Arizona.

 

Why should a couple million people get their shorts in a knot about a half a dozen "scofflaws"? If you shut them down, a dozen more will crop up in their place. It will still be a VERY FEW.

 

When cheating becomes a HUGE TREND, then perhaps it might need to be addressed by rule tightening and changes to the site. Until then, hit the "ignore" button. (perhaps the little red "X" at the top right corner of the browser window)?

 

The reason it is very few is because we dont ignore it when it happens. If we ignored them, soon there would be more, and new people might think that is acceptable. Instead, new people see what the community standards are. This is how we can prevent cheating from being a huge trend.

Link to comment

OK, today's thread on the bogus Find claims on the Iraq cache at GW4 is the latest in a series of happenstances related to what I'll call "The New Numbers Game". My usual caveat on this subject applies: This thread/discussion is only pertinent IF STATS MATTER TO YOU...if they don't, this is a moot discussion.

 

Here's a summary of those happenstances (I'm sure there are others I'm missing here) from where I'm sitting, and MY OPINION (your opinion may vary) of their effect on Geocaching stats:

 

(1) Logging a Find on pocket caches at Events (cheating)

 

(2) Claiming a Find on a cache carried to an Event for logging not at orig. coords, such as the Iraq cache (cheating)

 

(3) Bringing an album of Geocoins and other trackables to an Event for all to log and get new Icons added to their stats (not necessarily cheating because loggers actually see/handle the trackables, but certainly not in the spirit of original purpose - to find them in caches)

 

(4) Trading lists of serial numbers of trackables at Events and elsewhere without actually seeing/handling the trackables, to get new Icons (cheating)

 

(5) Getting "close" to a cache hide area, but for one reason or another not actually reaching the hide area, and still claiming a Find (cheating)

 

(6) Reaching the hide area and finding the cache apparently missing, and claiming a Find (cheating)

 

(7) Micro Spew (not cheating if one actually finds the caches and signs the log sheets, but certainly and unquestionably a cheapening of stats as compared to pre mid-'04 (my unofficial date of when I believe Micro Spew fundamentally changed our game, as I've documented ad nauseum elsewhere in the Forums lately))

 

Also as I've documented elsewhere, I'm a "reformed Numbers Ho", having had my spirit broken from continuing to play the game that way (for stats) by 2 occurrences: (1) The closing of Dan Miller's stats-by-state site in '03 (a key motivator to keep caching, to myself and many of my within-Mississippi caching brethren of the time - we had a wonderful, friendly in-state competition going until then), and (2) Micro Spew.

 

On many occasions, I recall seeing Jeremy comment that while he was willing to keep cacher stats on the site as a matter of record- and memory-keeping, he would never condone the use of stats as a form of competition. It has become clear by my laundry list of items above that, based on what our game has now become to so many people, he was right all along.

 

I know all about the counterpoints to my summary and points above, about how "everyone can play the game however they choose, there are no prizes for stats, we should all mind our own business about how anyone else caches, etc etc etc". I know. I KNOW. I KNOW!!

 

Having participated in many stat-oriented threads lately related to individual items on my list above, I just thought it would be interesting to post them all on one thread and see where the discussion leads. I don't know if such a discussion will lead to any changes in either behaviors or how things ultimately work around here, or if it's just another discussion. So here we go.

Your post was very long so I didn't read it closely, but basically 'people are too competitive with their numbers (of whatever)'. So are you ready to count things in incremetnal stars or fruit or what???

Link to comment

Your post was very long so I didn't read it closely, but basically 'people are too competitive with their numbers (of whatever)'. So are you ready to count things in incremetnal stars or fruit or what???

I'm sorry my original post didn't meet your attention span requirements. Please read it along with the other posts in this thread so that you can get the point being made that the The New Numbers Game speaks to a larger issue related to the overall health of our game.

Link to comment

To add to the standard statement: if you don't like stats, don't read them. Its quite that simple.

 

The only person who lends credibilty to a stat is the interpreter.

 

Don't you know that 84% of all stats are made up[;)]

Link to comment

One of the things I always used to enjoy about caching was reading the logs describing the adventures cachers had while searching for and finding (or not finding) the cache. Not only was it fun to go back and read other's logs on caches I had been to, but it was fun to read them for most caches. Now, most log entries are some variation of "TFTC" or "Team Number Ho's was here" cut and pasted all over the place. Maybe doing away with stats would bring back some of the sharing of our adventures which was one of the contributing factors, I think, in establishing our sense of community back when this hobby started, and it would probably get us back to our roots, to what Geocaching originally was, which to me was a lot more fun.

Link to comment

We are at 439 finds, tomorrow since the weather is hopefully going to be nice, I plan on geocaching all day. Ideally I want to 450. I would like our 500th to be found in Ireland and Scotland when we go there on vacation.

 

Since we are not competing with anyone else, never attend caching events aside from the local chapter get-togethers on the rarest occasion, does that mean we are number whores? We rarely find micros.

Link to comment

One of the things I always used to enjoy about caching was reading the logs describing the adventures cachers had while searching for and finding (or not finding) the cache. Not only was it fun to go back and read other's logs on caches I had been to, but it was fun to read them for most caches. Now, most log entries are some variation of "TFTC" or "Team Number Ho's was here" cut and pasted all over the place. Maybe doing away with stats would bring back some of the sharing of our adventures which was one of the contributing factors, I think, in establishing our sense of community back when this hobby started, and it would probably get us back to our roots, to what Geocaching originally was, which to me was a lot more fun.

 

I enjoy reading good logs too, and also always try to record my adventures when I write them. I have most of the caches I found watch listed so I can see others' adventures in finding them and also relive my own when someone else finds it. I don't know if getting rid of stats would improve the quality of logs though. Some people either don't enjoy writing descriptive logs, aren't talented writers or just don't care. I won't get on someone's case for a nondescript log, but I hope cache owners and others find my rambling prose enjoyable.

Link to comment

I can't really say I'm a numbers ho. I've been doing this crazy geocaching thing now for slightly over two years and I just hit 75 today. It's about the experience. I would like to weigh in on this though with a point or two, at least one of which will be made by analogy. I love analogies. ;)

 

Anyway, let's compare geocaching to golf for a minute. In the game of golf, which I don't really play anymore, there are people who go out and take mulligans. You know, do overs. Also they take gimmes. The ball's close enough to the hole so they figure why bother putting it in the rest of the way and giving themselves a chance to screw it up. After taking a mulligan and a gimme on a par 4 hole, these people will happily mark down their score without taking the mulligan into account and assuming that they'd have made the putt they took the gimme on. Would this thing hold up in tournament play? No way. Do the people who do it enjoy themselves? They probably do. Does it effect others who are playing on the course who decide they don't want to play that way and not take mulligans and gimmes? Not really. Do people in the club house know who keeps honest score? Most likely. Do the people who don't keep honest score know deep down inside that what they put on their scorecard isn't really all that valid? Sure they do.

 

Okay, so what does it matter in a game where there are no tournaments and no officially sanctioned records or anything? Numbers are just that. They let you know what you've found, but they don't speak for the type or difficulty of those finds. They give a rough idea to others as to what you've done, but a much more tangible sense of accomplishment to you as an individual most likely. They don't really matter all that much though, so what someone else does with their "scorecard" shouldn't be of overwhelming concern.

 

Of course cache owners should be able to decide and be the final arbiter for what they believe constitutes a find at their cache. I only have one cache and really have no time to print out a list of logged finds and audit the logbook against the logs on the site. I couldn't imagine what someone with multiple caches would have to go through to do that. The only way I'd take a look at things is if there were something that seriously appeared amiss. If someone logged that they were where they thought it should be, if someone signed the outside of the container, etc.

 

I wouldn't really complain all that much if public stats went away, but people could still compare them if they wanted to. The biggest solution is not to care what someone else does with their "scorecard", don't go after parking lot micros if you don't like them, and just go out and have fun.

 

How many golfers do you know that go around with their score cards taped to their foreheads?

Link to comment

Well, since I started this thread, allow me to sum up what I view as 2 camps of responses so far:

 

The other camp wants to just say, "Who cares about stats? Play your own game."

 

While I respect the point of view of the second camp, I say to that camp: You're not adding any value to the discussion.

 

(edit: sp. & content)

The value is in letting you know that we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Your "camp" is doing more than discussing the issue. You are advocating a radical change. I (and others) want you to know that we don't think that's ok. We don't need any reason. But for the record, although I do lament the proliferation of pointless caches, I'm not convinced that your "New Numbers Game" is the cause. I think people would be hiding bad caches even if there were no public stats. Believe me, I hate it too! I recently chased down an urban multi where the first stage was on a power transformer (or whatever those things are) in back of a strip mall. The final stage was... on another power transformer in back of a strip mall across the street! ;) The point is, this cache wasn't about padding numbers. This cache would have been hidden even if stats weren't public.

I like looking at my stats. I like looking at other people's stats. Numbers chasers are not altering the game for me.

Hmmmmm..... guess I could have just posted that last paragraph and left it at that!

Link to comment

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

I'm going to have to agree with this guy...even after church!!!

 

I don't worry much about stats, but I admit I will sometimes check out people's stats/profiles, just to get an idea about the person. Its not too hard to decipher/psychoanalyze peoples finds.

 

For instance, looking at my stats, it's easy to tell I'm a family type cacher--heavy on full-size easy caches. Also, digging further, you might notice I have an OCD-type urge to clear every cache near my home, regardless of type.

 

Numbers/icon Hos are easy to spot. Tree huggers generally are too. Then there is the psycho-cacher, who scales cliffs and scuba-dives for caches. Your stats tell me you are a numbers-type cacher who travels, and hits every nearby cache, regardless of type.

 

My vote would be to leave the system pretty much the way it is, but I wouldn't care much if the stats went away.

Link to comment

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

 

I agree 100%. I'd agree more, if that were possible!!

 

I have six hundred and whatever finds. I know they're all legitimate finds, and if someone wanted to track down all six hundred and whatever log books, they'd find my name in there (and the more recent ones would find my dog's name, logging her find, too!).

 

edit: I know my finds are all good. I don't care at all how many finds anyone else claims - it in no way diminishes the fun I have caching!

 

I agree 100% with these two !

 

If these stats do not matter to the rest of you why are you having this discussion anyway ? Seems to me that as passionate as you guys are about "cheating and Stats" that all this does matter very much to some people and not at all to others.

 

We like our stats , they are our PERSONAL record of what we have done . I also have the good sense to know that they most likely do not mean much to anyone but US. They tell us where we have been and what we have accomplished.

 

And as stated before , when someone logs a DNF we do also take into account there stats as a geocacher , as to how fast we will run out and check on one of our caches, or even take it into consideration on if we will try to find a cache that has been recently DNF'd

 

Star

Link to comment

One of the things I always used to enjoy about caching was reading the logs describing the adventures cachers had while searching for and finding (or not finding) the cache. Not only was it fun to go back and read other's logs on caches I had been to, but it was fun to read them for most caches. Now, most log entries are some variation of "TFTC" or "Team Number Ho's was here" cut and pasted all over the place. Maybe doing away with stats would bring back some of the sharing of our adventures which was one of the contributing factors, I think, in establishing our sense of community back when this hobby started, and it would probably get us back to our roots, to what Geocaching originally was, which to me was a lot more fun.

 

I think a lot of that stems from the explosion in lame micros. How much could there be to write about your "adventure" in the 7-Eleven parking lot?

Link to comment
If these stats do not matter to the rest of you why are you having this discussion anyway ?

 

You, and many others, miss the point.

 

We are not motivated by the stats. It's not that we don't care, we do. We care about the effect the stats have on the hobby. That's why we're having this discussion.

 

The problem comes from a sub-set of those who are motivated by their numbers. This sub-set is driven by the smilie. They hunt only for the smilie. They place caches only for the smilie. You see it in the way they talk about a placement. "Here's another gift for the community." Their "gift" is a cheap smilie. A very large portion of these placements would have absolutely no value without the smilie. Take away the smilie and it is nothing. It is this type of placement most folks are complaining about.

 

No, it won't take care of the mis-guided placements, caches that aren't maintained, or folks who don't trade kindly. It is a step in the right direction in letting this sub-set know not everyone is motivated by smilies. It is a step in the right direction imploring this sub-set to give us something more in the hide.

Link to comment

I play the game my way. I don't cheat, log every cache I've found legitimately, and don't do number padding. I don't feel the need to find every cache, and in fact, as happened this weekend, I got to the site of a couple of micro caches, looked around and said to myself, "I'm not interested in this kind..." and walked away. I recently found my 300th cache after four years and two months, climbing down into a dank and dark tunnel with a fellow cacher who I had met a scant 20 minutes earlier. I have logged a Moun10bike coin, shown to me by a friend at an event, a Groundspeak lackey coin, handed to me by a real Groundspeak lackey and a private traveling coin offered by a fellow cacher who I met on the trail; all the rest of my tb's, jeeps and coins are legitimate "in the field" finds.

 

So why should I care if someone else plays a different game? It has a lot to do with integrity -- of the game and the person who plays it. When a few cheat on the "guidelines", we all are tainted. You know, not all of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are crooks, but we don't have a lot of faith in their integrity as a whole because of the actions of a few. The geocaching community is no different. When events like the ones that have precipitated this discussion occur, they do have an effect on me, because like the cheater, I am also a geocacher. Who is going to believe me what I say I don't cheat? Why should I believe you when you say you don't cheat?

 

Lately, there have been congratulations for the über-record breakers, but I've noticed that there are fewer and fewer threads celebrating the smaller number milestones. They seem insignificant compared to the "steroid" cachers' accomplishments. Who wants to congratulate someone on finding 300 in four years, when some team proudly announces 300 (albeit dubious) cache finds in 24 hours?

 

I'd be pleased to see a crack-down by gc.com to end the abuse that seems to be occurring, for all the reasons others have stated. People learn what they are taught, and if we as a community teach them that whatever you do is alright, then truly, everything they do WILL be alright, no matter how detrimental it is to the communtiy at large. If this crack-down involves a hidden number count, no more pocket-caches, logging of archived caches, signing of cache containers, not log sheets, or logging caches without actually going to the cache site, I'll whole-heartedly support it.

Link to comment

Well, since I started this thread, allow me to sum up what I view as 2 camps of responses so far:

 

The other camp wants to just say, "Who cares about stats? Play your own game."

 

While I respect the point of view of the second camp, I say to that camp: You're not adding any value to the discussion.

 

(edit: sp. & content)

The value is in letting you know that we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Your "camp" is doing more than discussing the issue. You are advocating a radical change. I (and others) want you to know that we don't think that's ok. We don't need any reason. But for the record, although I do lament the proliferation of pointless caches, I'm not convinced that your "New Numbers Game" is the cause. I think people would be hiding bad caches even if there were no public stats. Believe me, I hate it too! I recently chased down an urban multi where the first stage was on a power transformer (or whatever those things are) in back of a strip mall. The final stage was... on another power transformer in back of a strip mall across the street! ;) The point is, this cache wasn't about padding numbers. This cache would have been hidden even if stats weren't public.

I like looking at my stats. I like looking at other people's stats. Numbers chasers are not altering the game for me.

Hmmmmm..... guess I could have just posted that last paragraph and left it at that!

I appreciate the above counterpoint, even though I don't happen to agree with it. As you read above in the terse "summary" post I made, I got frustrated with those who made a similar point but without a supporting argument...THAT was adding no value to the discussion. Your post, on the other hand, DID add value.

Edited by drat19
Link to comment

I play the game my way. I don't cheat, log every cache I've found legitimately, and don't do number padding. I don't feel the need to find every cache, and in fact, as happened this weekend, I got to the site of a couple of micro caches, looked around and said to myself, "I'm not interested in this kind..." and walked away. I recently found my 300th cache after four years and two months, climbing down into a dank and dark tunnel with a fellow cacher who I had met a scant 20 minutes earlier. I have logged a Moun10bike coin, shown to me by a friend at an event, a Groundspeak lackey coin, handed to me by a real Groundspeak lackey and a private traveling coin offered by a fellow cacher who I met on the trail; all the rest of my tb's, jeeps and coins are legitimate "in the field" finds.

 

So why should I care if someone else plays a different game? It has a lot to do with integrity -- of the game and the person who plays it. When a few cheat on the "guidelines", we all are tainted. You know, not all of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are crooks, but we don't have a lot of faith in their integrity as a whole because of the actions of a few. The geocaching community is no different. When events like the ones that have precipitated this discussion occur, they do have an effect on me, because like the cheater, I am also a geocacher. Who is going to believe me what I say I don't cheat? Why should I believe you when you say you don't cheat?

 

Lately, there have been congratulations for the über-record breakers, but I've noticed that there are fewer and fewer threads celebrating the smaller number milestones. They seem insignificant compared to the "steroid" cachers' accomplishments. Who wants to congratulate someone on finding 300 in four years, when some team proudly announces 300 (albeit dubious) cache finds in 24 hours?

 

I'd be pleased to see a crack-down by gc.com to end the abuse that seems to be occurring, for all the reasons others have stated. People learn what they are taught, and if we as a community teach them that whatever you do is alright, then truly, everything they do WILL be alright, no matter how detrimental it is to the communtiy at large. If this crack-down involves a hidden number count, no more pocket-caches, logging of archived caches, signing of cache containers, not log sheets, or logging caches without actually going to the cache site, I'll whole-heartedly support it.

I largely agree with the views expressed above by Metaphor, and I second his suggestions. Personally, I am not at all into numbers, and I pick and choose the caches which I hunt very carefully. While stats do not matter to me at all, I do have geo-friends to whom the numbers seem very important, and I can accept them and their preferences as well; to each their own! Everyone is free to walk through this life as they wish, and play the geo sport/game as they wish, in my book.

 

However, having said all that about "to each their own", I do reserve the right to express my amazement and my amusement (and sometimes downright astonishment) at the lengths to which some of the "numbers hos" will go to log a find. As you may have noticed, I have already shared my reactions to the whole Team DRR "record" attempt, and also to the Iraqui cache finds logged from Texas. A phone call last nite from someone on national forums alerted me to the fact that a few of those bogus GW4-attendee finds are now even being even logged for caches and events here in Maryland, from a distance of perhaps 1,800 miles! In fact, one of the finds logged "remotely" was an FTF for a new MD cache which has not even been yet published (the cache was apparently submitted for review several days ago)! And, a cacher named Jerseygirl, who owns caches in Florida, has been complaining on another thread on this forum that folks in Texas at GW4 have been logging fake "remote" finds on two of her Florida caches from Texas! Bizarre! This kind of behavior all seems very odd to me, but apparently it has become a norm in some circles!

Link to comment

I play the game my way. I don't cheat, log every cache I've found legitimately, and don't do number padding. I don't feel the need to find every cache, and in fact, as happened this weekend, I got to the site of a couple of micro caches, looked around and said to myself, "I'm not interested in this kind..." and walked away. I recently found my 300th cache after four years and two months, climbing down into a dank and dark tunnel with a fellow cacher who I had met a scant 20 minutes earlier. I have logged a Moun10bike coin, shown to me by a friend at an event, a Groundspeak lackey coin, handed to me by a real Groundspeak lackey and a private traveling coin offered by a fellow cacher who I met on the trail; all the rest of my tb's, jeeps and coins are legitimate "in the field" finds.

 

So why should I care if someone else plays a different game? It has a lot to do with integrity -- of the game and the person who plays it. When a few cheat on the "guidelines", we all are tainted. You know, not all of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are crooks, but we don't have a lot of faith in their integrity as a whole because of the actions of a few. The geocaching community is no different. When events like the ones that have precipitated this discussion occur, they do have an effect on me, because like the cheater, I am also a geocacher. Who is going to believe me what I say I don't cheat? Why should I believe you when you say you don't cheat?

 

Lately, there have been congratulations for the über-record breakers, but I've noticed that there are fewer and fewer threads celebrating the smaller number milestones. They seem insignificant compared to the "steroid" cachers' accomplishments. Who wants to congratulate someone on finding 300 in four years, when some team proudly announces 300 (albeit dubious) cache finds in 24 hours?

 

I'd be pleased to see a crack-down by gc.com to end the abuse that seems to be occurring, for all the reasons others have stated. People learn what they are taught, and if we as a community teach them that whatever you do is alright, then truly, everything they do WILL be alright, no matter how detrimental it is to the communtiy at large. If this crack-down involves a hidden number count, no more pocket-caches, logging of archived caches, signing of cache containers, not log sheets, or logging caches without actually going to the cache site, I'll whole-heartedly support it.

I largely agree with the views expressed above by Metaphor, and I second his suggestions. Personally, I am not at all into numbers, and I pick and choose the caches which I hunt very carefully. While stats do not matter to me at all, I do have geo-friends to whom the numbers seem very important, and I can accept them and their preferences as well; to each their own! Everyone is free to walk through this life as they wish, and play the geo sport/game as they wish, in my book.

 

However, having said all that about "to each their own", I do reserve the right to express my amazement and my amusement (and sometimes downright astonishment) at the lengths to which some of the "numbers hos" will go to log a find. As you may have noticed, I have already shared my reactions to the whole Team DRR "record" attempt, and also to the Iraqui cache finds logged from Texas. A phone call last nite from someone on national forums alerted me to the fact that a few of those bogus GW4-attendee finds are now even being even logged for caches and events here in Maryland, from a distance of perhaps 1,800 miles! In fact, one of the finds logged "remotely" was an FTF for a new MD cache which has not even been yet published (the cache was apparently submitted for review several days ago)! And, a cacher named Jerseygirl, who owns caches in Florida, has been complaining on another thread on this forum that folks in Texas at GW4 have been logging fake "remote" finds on two of her Florida caches from Texas! Bizarre! This kind of behavior all seems very odd to me, but apparently it has become a norm in some circles!

Something just occurred to me in reading your post, I wonder if this is real or I've been just reading the forums too much this weekend:

 

There's one stat game I still play, that until now I THOUGHT one could only play legitimately: The "states cached" game. I've cached 39 states, DC, and 4 Canadian provinces. Traveled to and found a cache (or several) in every single one of 'em. I'm proud of that accomplishment, I've driven literally hundreds of miles out of my way to get some of my states, and I'm working toward also getting the rest of the "gaps" in my map. I'm proud of my fellow Mississippian DavidMac for achieving the 50-state milestone this weekend.

 

Could it be that some folks are now finding a way to circumvent even THIS variation on the stat game???

Link to comment

Something just occurred to me in reading your post, I wonder if this is real or I've been just reading the forums too much this weekend:

 

There's one stat game I still play, that until now I THOUGHT one could only play legitimately: The "states cached" game. I've cached 39 states, DC, and 4 Canadian provinces. Traveled to and found a cache (or several) in every single one of 'em. I'm proud of that accomplishment, I've driven literally hundreds of miles out of my way to get some of my states, and I'm working toward also getting the rest of the "gaps" in my map. I'm proud of my fellow Mississippian DavidMac for achieving the 50-state milestone this weekend.

 

Could it be that some folks are now finding a way to circumvent even THIS variation on the stat game???

 

Cupie1.jpg

Link to comment

Something just occurred to me in reading your post, I wonder if this is real or I've been just reading the forums too much this weekend:

 

There's one stat game I still play, that until now I THOUGHT one could only play legitimately: The "states cached" game. I've cached 39 states, DC, and 4 Canadian provinces. Traveled to and found a cache (or several) in every single one of 'em. I'm proud of that accomplishment, I've driven literally hundreds of miles out of my way to get some of my states, and I'm working toward also getting the rest of the "gaps" in my map. I'm proud of my fellow Mississippian DavidMac for achieving the 50-state milestone this weekend.

 

Could it be that some folks are now finding a way to circumvent even THIS variation on the stat game???

 

Cupie1.jpg

Mopar, as a fellow (but now-transplanted-to-the-South) Northeasterner I'm usually right on board with your sense of humor, but I'm afraid I don't get the Cupie Doll reference. Explain?

Link to comment

Well, since I started this thread, allow me to sum up what I view as 2 camps of responses so far:

 

The other camp wants to just say, "Who cares about stats? Play your own game."

 

While I respect the point of view of the second camp, I say to that camp: You're not adding any value to the discussion.

 

(edit: sp. & content)

The value is in letting you know that we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Your "camp" is doing more than discussing the issue. You are advocating a radical change. I (and others) want you to know that we don't think that's ok. We don't need any reason. But for the record, although I do lament the proliferation of pointless caches, I'm not convinced that your "New Numbers Game" is the cause. I think people would be hiding bad caches even if there were no public stats. Believe me, I hate it too! I recently chased down an urban multi where the first stage was on a power transformer (or whatever those things are) in back of a strip mall. The final stage was... on another power transformer in back of a strip mall across the street! ;) The point is, this cache wasn't about padding numbers. This cache would have been hidden even if stats weren't public.

I like looking at my stats. I like looking at other people's stats. Numbers chasers are not altering the game for me.

Hmmmmm..... guess I could have just posted that last paragraph and left it at that!

I appreciate the above counterpoint, even though I don't happen to agree with it. As you read above in the terse "summary" post I made, I got frustrated with those who made a similar point but without a supporting argument...THAT was adding no value to the discussion. Your post, on the other hand, DID add value.

 

I also agree that all the new people into this game will hide caches whereever there is a place left. In my particular community for example, there are not many park hides left, so people turn to other places - thereby making the amount of micros grow. I will agree with Drat that many of these do not take me to an interesting spot, have no educational value, etc... I will disagree that they are completely useless. Two reasons come to my mind. As I have stated before, they are an easier find for people who cannot trek through rough terrian or through swamps due to physical limitations to find an ammo can in the woods. Secondly, some people just like to find things, like a treasure hunt. Nothing more than that. It is just fun to find something that is hidden. Here in Wisconsin, I decided last week to find a "traditional cache" and went deep into the woods to get it. I got eaten alive by mosquitos, schelped my way through numerous patches of poison ivy and oak, and threw off a few wood ticks to get to it. I was so miserable by the time I got to it, I barely signed the log book to get out of there! Finding a micro hidden in a park tree at that point sounded a bit easier and a little more tempting! :) Is that wrong? Nope, just my personal preference for what I want to put myself through and what my idea of "fun" is. Thank you for considering my point of view.

Link to comment

I play the game my way. I don't cheat, log every cache I've found legitimately, and don't do number padding. I don't feel the need to find every cache, and in fact, as happened this weekend, I got to the site of a couple of micro caches, looked around and said to myself, "I'm not interested in this kind..." and walked away. I recently found my 300th cache after four years and two months, climbing down into a dank and dark tunnel with a fellow cacher who I had met a scant 20 minutes earlier. I have logged a Moun10bike coin, shown to me by a friend at an event, a Groundspeak lackey coin, handed to me by a real Groundspeak lackey and a private traveling coin offered by a fellow cacher who I met on the trail; all the rest of my tb's, jeeps and coins are legitimate "in the field" finds.

 

So why should I care if someone else plays a different game? It has a lot to do with integrity -- of the game and the person who plays it. When a few cheat on the "guidelines", we all are tainted. You know, not all of our Congressmen and Congresswomen are crooks, but we don't have a lot of faith in their integrity as a whole because of the actions of a few. The geocaching community is no different. When events like the ones that have precipitated this discussion occur, they do have an effect on me, because like the cheater, I am also a geocacher. Who is going to believe me what I say I don't cheat? Why should I believe you when you say you don't cheat?

 

Lately, there have been congratulations for the über-record breakers, but I've noticed that there are fewer and fewer threads celebrating the smaller number milestones. They seem insignificant compared to the "steroid" cachers' accomplishments. Who wants to congratulate someone on finding 300 in four years, when some team proudly announces 300 (albeit dubious) cache finds in 24 hours?

 

I'd be pleased to see a crack-down by gc.com to end the abuse that seems to be occurring, for all the reasons others have stated. People learn what they are taught, and if we as a community teach them that whatever you do is alright, then truly, everything they do WILL be alright, no matter how detrimental it is to the communtiy at large. If this crack-down involves a hidden number count, no more pocket-caches, logging of archived caches, signing of cache containers, not log sheets, or logging caches without actually going to the cache site, I'll whole-heartedly support it.

I largely agree with the views expressed above by Metaphor, and I second his suggestions. Personally, I am not at all into numbers, and I pick and choose the caches which I hunt very carefully. While stats do not matter to me at all, I do have geo-friends to whom the numbers seem very important, and I can accept them and their preferences as well; to each their own! Everyone is free to walk through this life as they wish, and play the geo sport/game as they wish, in my book.

 

However, having said all that about "to each their own", I do reserve the right to express my amazement and my amusement (and sometimes downright astonishment) at the lengths to which some of the "numbers hos" will go to log a find. As you may have noticed, I have already shared my reactions to the whole Team DRR "record" attempt, and also to the Iraqui cache finds logged from Texas. A phone call last nite from someone on national forums alerted me to the fact that a few of those bogus GW4-attendee finds are now even being even logged for caches and events here in Maryland, from a distance of perhaps 1,800 miles! In fact, one of the finds logged "remotely" was an FTF for a new MD cache which has not even been yet published (the cache was apparently submitted for review several days ago)! And, a cacher named Jerseygirl, who owns caches in Florida, has been complaining on another thread on this forum that folks in Texas at GW4 have been logging fake "remote" finds on two of her Florida caches from Texas! Bizarre! This kind of behavior all seems very odd to me, but apparently it has become a norm in some circles!

Something just occurred to me in reading your post, I wonder if this is real or I've been just reading the forums too much this weekend:

 

There's one stat game I still play, that until now I THOUGHT one could only play legitimately: The "states cached" game. I've cached 39 states, DC, and 4 Canadian provinces. Traveled to and found a cache (or several) in every single one of 'em. I'm proud of that accomplishment, I've driven literally hundreds of miles out of my way to get some of my states, and I'm working toward also getting the rest of the "gaps" in my map. I'm proud of my fellow Mississippian DavidMac for achieving the 50-state milestone this weekend.

 

Could it be that some folks are now finding a way to circumvent even THIS variation on the stat game???

Yes, from the stories I am hearing over the past few days, folks at GW4 have been claiming remote finds on caches in Iraq, in Germany, and also in many states in the USA, particularly FL and PA and MD. Very odd!

Link to comment

Well, since I started this thread, allow me to sum up what I view as 2 camps of responses so far:

 

The other camp wants to just say, "Who cares about stats? Play your own game."

 

While I respect the point of view of the second camp, I say to that camp: You're not adding any value to the discussion.

 

(edit: sp. & content)

The value is in letting you know that we disagree with your assessment of the situation. Your "camp" is doing more than discussing the issue. You are advocating a radical change. I (and others) want you to know that we don't think that's ok. We don't need any reason. But for the record, although I do lament the proliferation of pointless caches, I'm not convinced that your "New Numbers Game" is the cause. I think people would be hiding bad caches even if there were no public stats. Believe me, I hate it too! I recently chased down an urban multi where the first stage was on a power transformer (or whatever those things are) in back of a strip mall. The final stage was... on another power transformer in back of a strip mall across the street! ;) The point is, this cache wasn't about padding numbers. This cache would have been hidden even if stats weren't public.

I like looking at my stats. I like looking at other people's stats. Numbers chasers are not altering the game for me.

Hmmmmm..... guess I could have just posted that last paragraph and left it at that!

I appreciate the above counterpoint, even though I don't happen to agree with it. As you read above in the terse "summary" post I made, I got frustrated with those who made a similar point but without a supporting argument...THAT was adding no value to the discussion. Your post, on the other hand, DID add value.

 

I also agree that all the new people into this game will hide caches whereever there is a place left. In my particular community for example, there are not many park hides left, so people turn to other places - thereby making the amount of micros grow. I will agree with Drat that many of these do not take me to an interesting spot, have no educational value, etc... I will disagree that they are completely useless. Two reasons come to my mind. As I have stated before, they are an easier find for people who cannot trek through rough terrian or through swamps due to physical limitations to find an ammo can in the woods. Secondly, some people just like to find things, like a treasure hunt. Nothing more than that. It is just fun to find something that is hidden. Here in Wisconsin, I decided last week to find a "traditional cache" and went deep into the woods to get it. I got eaten alive by mosquitos, schelped my way through numerous patches of poison ivy and oak, and threw off a few wood ticks to get to it. I was so miserable by the time I got to it, I barely signed the log book to get out of there! Finding a micro hidden in a park tree at that point sounded a bit easier and a little more tempting! :) Is that wrong? Nope, just my personal preference for what I want to put myself through and what my idea of "fun" is. Thank you for considering my point of view.

I definitely see your point...I'm in no shape to make some of the more strenuous hikes either, and ticks are indeed out of control nationwide this year. However, as you know, I've posted in many precincts around here that there's a difference between ONE or TWO lame micros here and there, and the PROLIFERATION of them that we've seen in so many areas, which (I believe) is being perpetuated by The New Numbers Game.

Link to comment

Mopar, as a fellow (but now-transplanted-to-the-South) Northeasterner I'm usually right on board with your sense of humor, but I'm afraid I don't get the Cupie Doll reference. Explain?

I hate when that happens. ;)

 

Kewpie (cupie) dolls were coveted prizes at old time carnivals. To win the top prize at a carnival game often meant winning a kewpie doll.

"You're the winner! Give that man a kewpie doll!"

Link to comment

Mopar, as a fellow (but now-transplanted-to-the-South) Northeasterner I'm usually right on board with your sense of humor, but I'm afraid I don't get the Cupie Doll reference. Explain?

I hate when that happens. :)

 

Kewpie (cupie) dolls were coveted prizes at old time carnivals. To win the top prize at a carnival game often meant winning a kewpie doll.

"You're the winner! Give that man a kewpie doll!"

AH! DUH, I should have gotten that! ;)

 

Thanks for the clarification. :) Yep, that's about the value of the "prize".

Edited by drat19
Link to comment

I have never seen so much complaining about something you supposedly dont care about.

 

Reading this thread and all the others where this subject has come up, I have the impression that even though some say that stats dont matter to them apparently they do. Some proudly display stats and maps of states cached in on profile pages and web homepages. I think the problem is that some cachers are angry because they have been around for a while have had their numbers surpassed by cachers who have not been around as long.

 

So you blame it on the micro and you try to justify by saying that if you started caching in 2004, you are a substandard cacher and somehow their finds don't count as much as yours. If that makes you feel better, ok.

 

Why do we concern ourselves so much with what the other person is doing?

We are all adults here and this is just a game. Play it your way. But don't tell me how I should play my game.

 

I don't cheat nor do I inflate my numbers in any way but I do like my stats and I keep track of them, I really don't care nor do I keep track of yours.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...