The New Numbers Game

[+drat19]

OK, today's thread on the bogus Find claims on the Iraq cache at GW4 is the latest in a series of happenstances related to what I'll call "The New Numbers Game". My usual caveat on this subject applies: This thread/discussion is only pertinent IF STATS MATTER TO YOU...if they don't, this is a moot discussion.

 

Here's a summary of those happenstances (I'm sure there are others I'm missing here) from where I'm sitting, and MY OPINION (your opinion may vary) of their effect on Geocaching stats:

 

(1) Logging a Find on pocket caches at Events (cheating)

 

(2) Claiming a Find on a cache carried to an Event for logging not at orig. coords, such as the Iraq cache (cheating)

 

(3) Bringing an album of Geocoins and other trackables to an Event for all to log and get new Icons added to their stats (not necessarily cheating because loggers actually see/handle the trackables, but certainly not in the spirit of original purpose - to find them in caches)

 

(4) Trading lists of serial numbers of trackables at Events and elsewhere without actually seeing/handling the trackables, to get new Icons (cheating)

 

(5) Getting "close" to a cache hide area, but for one reason or another not actually reaching the hide area, and still claiming a Find (cheating)

 

(6) Reaching the hide area and finding the cache apparently missing, and claiming a Find (cheating)

 

(7) Micro Spew (not cheating if one actually finds the caches and signs the log sheets, but certainly and unquestionably a cheapening of stats as compared to pre mid-'04 (my unofficial date of when I believe Micro Spew fundamentally changed our game, as I've documented ad nauseum elsewhere in the Forums lately))

 

Also as I've documented elsewhere, I'm a "reformed Numbers Ho", having had my spirit broken from continuing to play the game that way (for stats) by 2 occurrences: (1) The closing of Dan Miller's stats-by-state site in '03 (a key motivator to keep caching, to myself and many of my within-Mississippi caching brethren of the time - we had a wonderful, friendly in-state competition going until then), and (2) Micro Spew.

 

On many occasions, I recall seeing Jeremy comment that while he was willing to keep cacher stats on the site as a matter of record- and memory-keeping, he would never condone the use of stats as a form of competition. It has become clear by my laundry list of items above that, based on what our game has now become to so many people, he was right all along.

 

I know all about the counterpoints to my summary and points above, about how "everyone can play the game however they choose, there are no prizes for stats, we should all mind our own business about how anyone else caches, etc etc etc". I know. I KNOW. I KNOW!!

 

Having participated in many stat-oriented threads lately related to individual items on my list above, I just thought it would be interesting to post them all on one thread and see where the discussion leads. I don't know if such a discussion will lead to any changes in either behaviors or how things ultimately work around here, or if it's just another discussion. So here we go.

Edited May 28, 2006 by drat19

[+DocDiTTo]

After the number padding bunk I've seen, especially in the last few days, I'd just as soon see all the find count be removed from this site. you want to see how many caches i've found? Then count 'em by hand. Everwhere I look is my find count - in the cahes I log, in my profile, etc. Enough. Get rid of the numbers. They're pointless anyway. And with so many people faking them, they're completely meaningless. Nuke the numbers, I say!

[+Deliveryguy428]

Certain people think the bigger their numbers are the more "favors" they should get from Groundspeak (like being a new mod, or reviewer)

[+Mopar]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

[+hikergps]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

 

Agreed.

[+drat19]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

Mopar, as much as I "love" stats, at this point I'm becoming inclined to agree with you. I have my own spreadsheet that I keep to track my own Finds and DNFs, states cached, etc.

[+Deliveryguy428]

Just wondering with all the fallout this year's GW4 has started (don't remember this much after 3) but you think we will see a 5? or no?

[+Cache Heads]

On many occasions, I recall seeing Jeremy comment that while he was willing to keep cacher stats on the site as a matter of record- and memory-keeping, he would never condone the use of stats as a form of competition. It has become clear by my laundry list of items above that, based on what our game has now become to so many people, he was right all along.

Well, I'm certainly no veteran cacher but I think that Jeremy was dead on. The numbers should be a matter of record and memory-keeping. I care about my stats because they are memories to me-- each and every one. I don't care if I ever break any records or hit 1000 before someone else did or any of that... but I do care about the record keeping because it's like a personal journal of things I've done and places I've visited. I think pocket caches are silly and would find them totally unfufilling, but I do enjoy urban micros. So obviously my game is different than yours. But does that really matter? I've always been fairly anti-social, non-competitive and extremely sneaky -- so geocaching is a very personal thing with me. If you need to be competitive about it, why not race your buddies for the numbers and enforce the rules you set amongst yourselves? That way, you'll all be playing the same game and you still get to have fun competing. As far as I'm concerned, my family's geocaching stats are important-- but only to us. To others, I see no reason why they should mean a thing .

 

EDIT: to add that I could probably keep track of my own stats and logs, but I love the way Groundpeak does it and the "My Finds" PQ is a really great thing to have. Still, I'd never oppose making the numbers private rather than public.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Cache Heads

[+drat19]

Just wondering with all the fallout this year's GW4 has started (don't remember this much after 3) but you think we will see a 5? or no?

I don't think this will prevent a GW5 - I'm sure we'll see lots of positive threads about the fellowship, friendships made/enhanced, etc. I do, however, think that maybe these discussions and others will spur some changes in The New Numbers Game.

[+Deliveryguy428]

I'm sure we'll see lots of positive threads about the fellowship, friendships made/enhanced, etc.

 

I attended GW3 and I agree, as I stated earlier, it is all about personal choice, if someone wants to enhance their numbers in the not most legal of ways per guidelines, that is their choice and they must understand they have their opinions on why it is ok to do so, certain people will have their opinions on why it is not a good thing to do and should not be allowed.

[+Wacka]

Some of the people complaining about stats have said nothing about one stat- # of forum posts.

Seems that some are guilty of padding that stat by starting multiple threads about the same thing.

[+drat19]

Some of the people complaining about stats have said nothing about one stat- # of forum posts.

Seems that some are guilty of padding that stat by starting multiple threads about the same thing.

OK fine, then: You know that all-encompassing comment folks make when folks like me b*tch about urban micros: "If you don't like 'em, don't hunt for 'em"? Same applies to these threads. Thanks for adding value.

[+RichardMoore]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

How about amending that to "No Stats, unless you want your stats known"?

 

I wouldn't want my stats to be listed, if I had the option, but there a number of cachers who do want to be able to compare themselves to others. I don't understand it, or agree with it, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Yes, they can go to another site (ie: Keenpeople), but why should they have to?

As I've said in the past, I don't know anything about computer programming. But you can choose to be "invisible" in the forums, would it be that hard to give cachers the option to make their counts "invisible"?

[+Deliveryguy428]

Your right, I've reached over a thousand posts I demand a golden something or another, whatever is a symbol for forums

 

(BTW--if anyone takes this serious I have a clock in London to sale you)

[+kentuckygirls]

 

Having participated in many stat-oriented threads lately related to individual items on my list above, I just thought it would be interesting to post them all on one thread and see where the discussion leads. I don't know if such a discussion will lead to any changes in either behaviors or how things ultimately work around here, or if it's just another discussion. So here we go.

 

I have really appreciated most of the discussions on stat-oriented threads. We were logging multiple finds on events because we thought that it was appropriate. We have since learned that it is looked down upon and we know its not right. (Thank you to all those in the forums that made logical arguments against this practice.) We corrected this in our stats. We cache for different reasons. Some days we just want to get out in the woods and enjoy nature, some days we want to see how many caches we can find. I don't want people in the community to look at my cache finds and say yeah they've found 500 but... So we appreciate all the threads about Not found=Found and multi-logging events, etc.

 

Anyway, more on topic! I agree with everything that you have mentioned except for (3) and (7). (3)- This does not bother us in the least. We bought these coins because we wanted to collect them. If we can share our collection then that's what it is meant for. Stamp collecting is not in the spirit of the original purpose either.

 

As far as (7), you do say that it is not cheating (It is not even close). We cannot go back. I feel that there is also an abundance of lame micros, but there is also some great ones. There is also an abundance of lame requlars. Again we cannot go back. We can choose which ones we want to hunt. We like variety. We do not feel that our stats are cheapened because they were post 2004.

[+drat19]

Anyway, more on topic! I agree with everything that you have mentioned except for (3) and (7). (3)- This does not bother us in the least. We bought these coins because we wanted to collect them. If we can share our collection then that's what it is meant for. Stamp collecting is not in the spirit of the original purpose either.

Yeah, but if you own one of the 1918 Inverted Airplanes (philatelists, did I get that right?), others to whom you show it don't get to claim they own one too, do they? So yes, you own the geocoins, but those to whom you show them...?

 

As far as (7), you do say that it is not cheating (It is not even close). We cannot go back. I feel that there is also an abundance of lame micros, but there is also some great ones. There is also an abundance of lame requlars. Again we cannot go back. We can choose which ones we want to hunt. We like variety. We do not feel that our stats are cheapened because they were post 2004.

I do. But as I stated in my OP, this only matters IF STATS MATTER TO YOU, otherwise it's a moot discussion.

 

My opinion. And I have no problem respectfully agreeing to disagree, I think you know that from my other posts on this and other subjects.

 

(edit: sp.)

Edited May 28, 2006 by drat19

[+Mopar]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

Mopar, as much as I "love" stats, at this point I'm becoming inclined to agree with you. I have my own spreadsheet that I keep to track my own Finds and DNFs, states cached, etc.

OK, I guess I really need 3 words.

No PUBLIC stats.

You'll still be able to log online, and the cache owner and your friends will still be able to follow your adventures, just minus the numbers.

 

Get rid of the find count next to each log. I was always an advocate of being able to see how many finds a logger has as a means of weighing a DNF log. I think that could be fixed by instead of an actual number, just have a minor rating. Maybe something like:

0-49 finds = Tadpole

50+ finds = Frog

The tadpole/frog cutoff point could be discussed, maybe bumped up to 75 or 100, but by 100 finds you should have some clue whats going on, and if you log a DNF I'm gonna consider it.

 

Get rid of all the totals in the profiles. Go ahead and allow outside people to browse your finds, but if they want to know how many they are going to have to add them up themselves.

 

Kill the stats banner.

 

Crack down on 3rd party stats sites. If you are going to allow any at all, they should be opt in only.

 

Yeah, there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth, maybe even a geocide or 10, and a small exodus to other listing sites; but I think this is necessary for the long-term health and viability of the game.

[+RichardMoore]

Your right, I've reached over a thousand posts I demand a golden something or another, whatever is a symbol for forums

 

(BTW--if anyone takes this serious I have a clock in London to sale you)

Here you go:

We're all so proud of you.

 

[+drat19]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

Mopar, as much as I "love" stats, at this point I'm becoming inclined to agree with you. I have my own spreadsheet that I keep to track my own Finds and DNFs, states cached, etc.

OK, I guess I really need 3 words.

No PUBLIC stats.

You'll still be able to log online, and the cache owner and your friends will still be able to follow your adventures, just minus the numbers.

 

Get rid of the find count next to each log. I was always an advocate of being able to see how many finds a logger has as a means of weighing a DNF log. I think that could be fixed by instead of an actual number, just have a minor rating. Maybe something like:

0-49 finds = Tadpole

50+ finds = Frog

The tadpole/frog cutoff point could be discussed, maybe bumped up to 75 or 100, but by 100 finds you should have some clue whats going on, and if you log a DNF I'm gonna consider it.

 

Get rid of all the totals in the profiles. Go ahead and allow outside people to browse your finds, but if they want to know how many they are going to have to add them up themselves.

 

Kill the stats banner.

 

Crack down on 3rd party stats sites. If you are going to allow any at all, they should be opt in only.

 

Yeah, there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth, maybe even a geocide or 10, and a small exodus to other listing sites; but I think this is necessary for the long-term health and viability of the game.

Yeah, I'll go along with the revised edition as well!

[+Deliveryguy428]

Your right, I've reached over a thousand posts I demand a golden something or another, whatever is a symbol for forums

 

(BTW--if anyone takes this serious I have a clock in London to sale you)

Here you go:

We're all so proud of you.

 

 

Now about that clock in London

[+Hula Bum]

I think it's a wonderful idea (no visible stats). Maybe you should open it up in the website thread.

[+Mopar]

How about amending that to "No Stats, unless you want your stats known"?

 

I wouldn't want my stats to be listed, if I had the option, but there a number of cachers who do want to be able to compare themselves to others. I don't understand it, or agree with it, but that doesn't mean we should ignore it.

Yes, they can go to another site (ie: Keenpeople), but why should they have to?

As I've said in the past, I don't know anything about computer programming. But you can choose to be "invisible" in the forums, would it be that hard to give cachers the option to make their counts "invisible"?

 

That option was actually suggested recently over in this thread.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Mopar

[+Velvet]

I wouldn't mind seeing the stats disappear altogether either. Or, as someone mentioned in another thread (sorry, can't remember who to give credit where credit is due): have the option to turn stats off on your own profile. I think the second option would be the better compromise, so that for people to whom the numbers are the be-all end-all of the sport they can keep track if they want, and for the rest of us we can just find caches.

 

In one way or another we all choose the caches we look for and log based on what it is we enjoy most about this sport. What that is can change by the day, and the final numbers reflect only how each individual chooses to play the game and really isn't comparable to anyone else's number. No matter when you started caching, or what your goal is, there are enough caches listed on this site for everyone to find what they like finding and have a good time at it.

 

So, for the specifics:

 

1) Pocket caches: When they get listed on GC, they'll be another type of cache for people to enjoy finding. Until then, logging a "find" on a cache you've never seen just to get around the fact that they're NOT listed makes it cheating.

 

2) Traveling caches: specifically illegal and therefore cheating, as you cannot have a traveling cache listed on GC.

 

3) Swapping geocoin numbers at events: I enjoy seeing other people's coins, and will occasionally log a "discover" of a particular coin if I find it unique or had a nice conversation with the owner about it. Beyond that, I can't be bothered to take the time to enter in all those numbers to get an icon (I admit it, I just don't "get" the geocoin obsession). However, in the current list of practices to consider I'd say it's the least important issue to worry about.

 

5) Getting close but not finding: The phrase "close but no cigar" comes to mind. In my mind, if you got out of the car and couldn't find the cache, it's a DNF. If you got lost on the way and couldn't find the parking area, it's either a DNF or a mental note "I'm-too-embarrased-to-log-this-DNF". It's not a find.

 

6) "Finding" a missing cache: If it's missing, it's not found. Don't believe me? Try to drive to the store after you've lost your car keys........

 

7) "MicroSpew": Not having been caching pre-04, I can't compare timeframes. From my perspective, I don't really enjoy most micros except as a destination rest point on road trips. I find it pretty easy to seperate micros I'm interested in finding from one's I'm not, even if the final decision is made as the GPS points to a parking lot instead of the nearby park I thought I was heading for. On the other hand, even a parking lot micro can be a welcome diversion on a long, boring drive...especially when there isn't enough time for a longer detour to a more appealing cache.

 

The problem with stats is that they encourage cheating in order to run up numbers...and the problem with cheating is not the inflated numbers but the disrespect for other cachers that comes with cheating. Whether it's wasting someone else's time chasing a cache that doesn't exist, or misusing an archived (or even active) cache belonging to someone else, or offending fellow cachers overseas.....it's more important than inflated numbers.

 

(end rant)

[+RichardMoore]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

Mopar, as much as I "love" stats, at this point I'm becoming inclined to agree with you. I have my own spreadsheet that I keep to track my own Finds and DNFs, states cached, etc.

OK, I guess I really need 3 words.

No PUBLIC stats.

You'll still be able to log online, and the cache owner and your friends will still be able to follow your adventures, just minus the numbers.

 

Get rid of the find count next to each log. I was always an advocate of being able to see how many finds a logger has as a means of weighing a DNF log. I think that could be fixed by instead of an actual number, just have a minor rating. Maybe something like:

0-49 finds = Tadpole

50+ finds = Frog

The tadpole/frog cutoff point could be discussed, maybe bumped up to 75 or 100, but by 100 finds you should have some clue whats going on, and if you log a DNF I'm gonna consider it.

 

Get rid of all the totals in the profiles. Go ahead and allow outside people to browse your finds, but if they want to know how many they are going to have to add them up themselves.

 

Kill the stats banner.

 

Crack down on 3rd party stats sites. If you are going to allow any at all, they should be opt in only.

 

Yeah, there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth, maybe even a geocide or 10, and a small exodus to other listing sites; but I think this is necessary for the long-term health and viability of the game.

This is more acceptable, but can we come up with something better than "tadpole" and "frog"? Do we even need that listed?

If someone logs a DNF on your cache, you can click on their name to get to their profile, then on their list of caches found, and see that they've found a lot or a few. Two clicks and you're there. Do you get so many DNF's on your caches that this would be difficult?

[+ScoutingWV]

Someone brought a cache from Iraq so people could log it???

[+RichardMoore]

Your right, I've reached over a thousand posts I demand a golden something or another, whatever is a symbol for forums

 

(BTW--if anyone takes this serious I have a clock in London to sale you)

Here you go:

We're all so proud of you.

 

 

Now about that clock in London

Sorry, dude, but I spent all my savings buying a bridge in Brooklyn. The guy that sold it to me said I could put a toll booth at one end and make a fortune.

[+kentuckygirls]

Yeah, but if you own one of the 1918 Inverted Airplanes (philatelists, did I get that right?), others to whom you show it don't get to claim they own one too, do they? So yes, you own the geocoins, but those to whom you show them...?

 

Of course they don't own them. I don't recall saying that they did. But I did share them. The site does not transfer ownership.

 

I do. But as I stated in my OP, this only matters IF STATS MATTER TO YOU, otherwise it's a moot discussion.

 

My opinion. And I have no problem respectfully agreeing to disagree, I think you know that from my other posts on this and other subjects.

 

I will agree to disagree on this point !

[+Renegade Knight]

The only thing that has changed between then and now is that the geocaching community has better defined what cheating is. The key problem with stats is that both cachers and cheaters have them but at least we know who to call BS on.

 

Stats in and of themselves were never a problem. Compiling accurate stats was always the challenge.

 

Also for the people who would opt out of stats, there are valid reasons to know your finds. Especially when you DNF a cache of mine or when you post a SBA or Maintenance log. Stats or at least find counts have been a good tool to know when to email a hint, ask a question about what they saw and where they looked or quite frankly to know when the person is full or hot air and likely sock puppet looking to cause trouble.

 

My last comment about cheating is that it earned you respect right up until you are found out. Then it earns you disdain.

 

I will remain a fan of stats for all their fun, all their potential, and all the non stats things you can do with that same information.

 

Edit: Mondo Spelling Problems Fixed.

Edited May 28, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+drat19]

Yeah, but if you own one of the 1918 Inverted Airplanes (philatelists, did I get that right?), others to whom you show it don't get to claim they own one too, do they? So yes, you own the geocoins, but those to whom you show them...?

 

Of course they don't own them. I don't recall saying that they did. But I did share them. The site does not transfer ownership.

Perhaps I pushed that analogy too far (I mean that seriously, not condescendingly ). What I guess I was trying to get across was: Those folks get to add new Cool Icons (whoopity doo! ) when they log the serial numbers from your album...akin to my "ownership" point. The original spirit of Trackables, in my opinion, was to get to log them when you find them in caches, or actually carry them from cache to cache (I get TBs all the time from other cachers via personal handoffs as opposed to cache finds, but I carry them to other caches after I do; I'm comfortable logging TB stats for that).

[+Sagefox]

After the number padding bunk I've seen, especially in the last few days, I'd just as soon see all the find count be removed from this site... ...Get rid of the numbers. They're pointless anyway. And with so many people faking them, they're completely meaningless. Nuke the numbers, I say!

 

This ia a rather extreme response to what is, in fact, becoming an alarming condition. But though the numbers may be pointless to many they are an important part of the game for most geocachers.

 

So throwing the baby out with the bath water will make the baby healthier?

 

I would like to see some method of eliminating the questionable find practices. I have no idea how that could be done but there may be a need now to research it.

 

But... eliminating the find count would not be the appropriate way to go about it.

[+drat19]

After the number padding bunk I've seen, especially in the last few days, I'd just as soon see all the find count be removed from this site... ...Get rid of the numbers. They're pointless anyway. And with so many people faking them, they're completely meaningless. Nuke the numbers, I say!

 

This ia a rather extreme response to what is, in fact, becoming an alarming condition. But though the numbers may be pointless to many they are an important part of the game for most geocachers.

 

So throwing the baby out with the bath water will make the baby healthier?

 

I would like to see some method of eliminating the questionable find practices. I have no idea how that could be done but there may be a need now to research it.

 

But... eliminating the find count would not be the appropriate way to go about it.

Read through the rest of this thread...there's an interesting compromise suggestion among the posts.

[+ranger-rob]

The only point I can say I disagree with is #3 (geo-coins). They tend to be more "collectables" than "trackables", in my opinion. I don't ever remember seeing any in the wild except as collections at events. Unlike other forms of trackable where the tag, more often than not, is of more intrinsic value than what it's attached to, geo-coins are generally unique or low production run pocket sized art and something most anyone (geocacher or not) would tend to want to hang on to. I know, most people would say they move them on as regular cache swag, but if that were true, there'd be a lot more living in the woods and not in coin collecting albums in peoples homes.

I don't know what all the fuss is about adding icons to your stats is about. I logged a few after one event and found it to be more work than it was worth. Maybe I'm just lazy. They sure were fun to look at and marvel at the creativity of the designers though.

[+Sagefox]

You think the majority of geocachers want the find count removed? The majority is not here in the forums.

 

There is an interesting topic in the Northwest forum. It has been active since May 04, is always on the front page, is 52 pages long, has 2174 posts and 48,313 visits. I have never read anything negative in that topic. Quite the opposite is the purpose and practice of that topic. It is named Milestone Congratulations. Yep! Its about stats and people's accomplishments.

 

In that topic geocachers congratulate other geocachers because they see the century or millenium mark reached through the posted stats. That topic would likely die off if people had to post their own accomplishments because who wants to hear someone toot their own horn?

 

People love the stats for many reasons and are proud of the numbers they put up and they want those numbers to show. I don't need to rehash all the positive comments over the past 4 or 5 years this subject has been coming up but I believe this sport would take a big broadside hit if the numbers were removed.

 

The numbers aren't the problem.

[+drat19]

I don't know what all the fuss is about adding icons to your stats is about. I logged a few after one event and found it to be more work than it was worth. Maybe I'm just lazy. They sure were fun to look at and marvel at the creativity of the designers though.

The coins or the icons? I'm sure I know that YOUR answer to that is the former, but to so many others, it's the latter.

[+drat19]

You think the majority of geocachers want the find count removed? The majority is not here in the forums.

 

There is an interesting topic in the Northwest forum. It has been active since May 04, is always on the front page, is 52 pages long, has 2174 posts and 48,313 visits. I have never read anything negative in that topic. Quite the opposite is the purpose and practice of that topic. It is named Milestone Congratulations. Yep! Its about stats and people's accomplishments.

 

In that topic geocachers congratulate other geocachers because they see the century or millenium mark reached through the posted stats. That topic would likely die off if people had to post their own accomplishments because who wants to hear someone toot their own horn?

 

People love the stats for many reasons and are proud of the numbers they put up and they want those numbers to show. I don't need to rehash all the positive comments over the past 4 or 5 years this subject has been coming up but I believe this sport would take a big broadside hit if the numbers were removed.

 

The numbers aren't the problem.

Agreed. It is (my opinion, others' may vary) the CHEAPENING (and in many cases depending on your interpretation, the INVALIDATION) of the numbers recently that is the problem.

[+Glenn]

The solution can be found in two little words:

 

No Stats

Mopar, as much as I "love" stats, at this point I'm becoming inclined to agree with you. I have my own spreadsheet that I keep to track my own Finds and DNFs, states cached, etc.

OK, I guess I really need 3 words.

No PUBLIC stats.

You'll still be able to log online, and the cache owner and your friends will still be able to follow your adventures, just minus the numbers.

 

Get rid of the find count next to each log. I was always an advocate of being able to see how many finds a logger has as a means of weighing a DNF log. I think that could be fixed by instead of an actual number, just have a minor rating. Maybe something like:

0-49 finds = Tadpole

50+ finds = Frog

The tadpole/frog cutoff point could be discussed, maybe bumped up to 75 or 100, but by 100 finds you should have some clue whats going on, and if you log a DNF I'm gonna consider it.

 

Get rid of all the totals in the profiles. Go ahead and allow outside people to browse your finds, but if they want to know how many they are going to have to add them up themselves.

 

Kill the stats banner.

 

Crack down on 3rd party stats sites. If you are going to allow any at all, they should be opt in only.

 

Yeah, there will be some wailing and gnashing of teeth, maybe even a geocide or 10, and a small exodus to other listing sites; but I think this is necessary for the long-term health and viability of the game.

This is more acceptable, but can we come up with something better than "tadpole" and "frog"? Do we even need that listed?

If someone logs a DNF on your cache, you can click on their name to get to their profile, then on their list of caches found, and see that they've found a lot or a few. Two clicks and you're there. Do you get so many DNF's on your caches that this would be difficult?

 

Do we even need that? I honestly havn't found the total cache found number useful in determining if a single DNF log on a cache page means the cache is missing or not. Someone who has found a lot of caches can DNF an "easy" cache just the same as someone who has just started geocaching.

 

Multiple DNF logs on the same cache are what I find most useful in determing the difference between a hard to find cache vs. a missing cache.

[CoyoteRed]

But... eliminating the find count would not be the appropriate way to go about it.

 

Actually, I think it the most appropriate way to go about it.

 

If fact, not only do I advocate the ability to be able to hide my own numbers, but I also advocate being able to designate my caches so that FI logs don't add to anyone's public find count.

 

I'd much rather someone hunted our caches because they wanted to hunt the cache and couldn't care less about the smilie than they just did it to increment their find count.

 

Further--and this is wishful thinking--if all public aggregates and icons went away the hobby could go back to actually hiding and finding quality caches for the sake of hiding and finding quality caches. Remove the incentive of a smilie and if there's nothing left then maybe the cache shouldn't be placed. If you don't get a smilie for finding a cache and there's no incentive left, then why hunt it? This extra stuff is distractions that is pulling the hobby in the wrong direction. Many of us have been saying this for a long time. These recent issues illustrate our point.

[+Sagefox]

Read through the rest of this thread...there's an interesting compromise suggestion among the posts.

 

I did. And I didn't see an interesting or practical compromise but I'll keep watching with an open mind.

[+drat19]

Read through the rest of this thread...there's an interesting compromise suggestion among the posts.

 

I did. And I didn't see an interesting or practical compromise but I'll keep watching with an open mind.

I didn't mean to sound condescending with my terse response to your post...sorry if I did. I was referring to the RichardMoore and Mopar posts discussiing changing Mopar's original suggestion from "eliminating stats altogether" to a discussion on "hiding the stats" instead.

[+kentuckygirls]

I don't know what all the fuss is about adding icons to your stats is about. I logged a few after one event and found it to be more work than it was worth. Maybe I'm just lazy. They sure were fun to look at and marvel at the creativity of the designers though.

The coins or the icons? I'm sure I know that YOUR answer to that is the former, but to so many others, it's the latter.

 

Icons don't attribute to your find count. We bought the coins basically for collection purposes. But I choose to share them with people at events, that is the "trackables" mission. They are our travel bugs to do with what we choose. We do not log travel bugs at events just to log them! But if that is the TB's mission (to be logged at events) then we will log them.

[+drat19]

I don't know what all the fuss is about adding icons to your stats is about. I logged a few after one event and found it to be more work than it was worth. Maybe I'm just lazy. They sure were fun to look at and marvel at the creativity of the designers though.

The coins or the icons? I'm sure I know that YOUR answer to that is the former, but to so many others, it's the latter.

 

Icons don't attribute to your find count.

No, but they increment your Trackable Count AND, more pertinently, your Icon Count. There's a new game going where folks compete over how many Icons they get. Since there's no way anyone can realistically compete with the CCCAs of the world on total Found It logs, this is a way folks feel they can compete on something they can actually "win" (for whatever they think THAT's worth!) I've seen this madness at more than one event. Sigh.

[+Airmapper]

I've met several numbers padding cachers. They aren't mean, have foaming mouths, or snarl at you. They are nice folks playing the game in a way they think is normal. Instead of getting angry at them or taking away their stats, lets change what they call normal. Groundspeak may need to help, because the intentions of the game need to be preserved. Features like only allowing one find per listing will help. Other changes in guidelines may need to be added to slow the trend.

 

Overall the community needs to frown upon the behavior, because if it's not "cool" to do it, then there won't be those trying to boost their numbers dishonestly, when they know doing so will make them look bad. In general it is social cachers that do this, and their reputation is probably important to them.

[+El Diablo]

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

[+drat19]

I've met several numbers padding cachers. They aren't mean, have foaming mouths, or snarl at you. They are nice folks playing the game in a way they think is normal. Instead of getting angry at them or taking away their stats, lets change what they call normal. Groundspeak may need to help, because the intentions of the game need to be preserved. Features like only allowing one find per listing will help. Other changes in guidelines may need to be added to slow the trend.

 

Overall the community needs to frown upon the behavior, because if it's not "cool" to do it, then there won't be those trying to boost their numbers dishonestly, when they know doing so will make them look bad. In general it is social cachers that do this, and their reputation is probably important to them.

AMEN!

 

Personal experience: Early on in my Numbers Ho'ing days of '02 and '03, I pulled the ol' "log a Found It" log on a cache that I DID find, but I accidentally didn't sign the log book. I must have had a brain lock that day on that cache or something. I made the mistake of admitting it during a discussion on our local Mississippi forums. This was back when Dan Miller's site was still up and we had our friendly in-state competition going. Instead of the guys saying, "Don't worry Dave, you owned up publicly, we'll let it slide", I took SUCH (good-natured) ribbing over it, that I not only deleted my Found It until I went back to the cache again and DID sign it, but I learned through peer pressure never to do it again. And to this day, I maintain my in-state reputation as a "cacher of integrity". It DOES matter to me.

[+kentuckygirls]

I don't know what all the fuss is about adding icons to your stats is about. I logged a few after one event and found it to be more work than it was worth. Maybe I'm just lazy. They sure were fun to look at and marvel at the creativity of the designers though.

The coins or the icons? I'm sure I know that YOUR answer to that is the former, but to so many others, it's the latter.

 

Icons don't attribute to your find count.

No, but they increment your Trackable Count AND, more pertinently, your Icon Count. There's a new game going where folks compete over how many Icons they get. Since there's no way anyone can realistically compete with the CCCAs of the world on total Found It logs, this is a way folks feel they can compete on something they can actually "win" (for whatever they think THAT's worth!) I've seen this madness at more than one event. Sigh.

 

I guess we view this in a different way. I have never thought of comparing our icons to someone else's. I don't see it as a competition. But I can see where you are coming from.

 

On the other discussion going on in this thread, we would not care if the stats being shown were optional. Sounds like it would create less hostility. But it would also take some of the drama out of the forums !

[+drat19]

Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier.

 

El Diablo

ED, you know I've been an un-met "friend" of yours ever since I found your great Mobile History multi back in early '03, when my caching goal in life was to keep a 75-mile radius "cleared" and your multi was the last cache I needed to find to do that (enjoy this for your memories!), but regarding your post above:

 

To me (others' POVs may differ), worrying about others' numbers and their legitimacy is only part of this. It's the effect that The New Numbers Game (capitals intentional) is having on the overall state of our game: The effect on cache quality, and the effect on folks' motivations for playing (and the resultant effect that THAT has on cache quality).

 

(edit: content)

Edited May 29, 2006 by drat19

[+kentuckygirls]

I've met several numbers padding cachers. They aren't mean, have foaming mouths, or snarl at you. They are nice folks playing the game in a way they think is normal. Instead of getting angry at them or taking away their stats, lets change what they call normal. Groundspeak may need to help, because the intentions of the game need to be preserved. Features like only allowing one find per listing will help. Other changes in guidelines may need to be added to slow the trend.

 

Overall the community needs to frown upon the behavior, because if it's not "cool" to do it, then there won't be those trying to boost their numbers dishonestly, when they know doing so will make them look bad. In general it is social cachers that do this, and their reputation is probably important to them.

 

Airmapper, you are one classy guy!

[+Vinny & Sue Team]

Someone brought a cache from Iraq so people could log it???

Not really. The latest story of what happened at GW4 is that someone made a "copy" of a cache in Iraq, and allowd people to find it and claim a find. Very bizarre!

[ParentsofSAM]

(3)- This does not bother us in the least. We bought these coins because we wanted to collect them. If we can share our collection then that's what it is meant for. Stamp collecting is not in the spirit of the original purpose either.

 

As far as (7), you do say that it is not cheating (It is not even close). We cannot go back. I feel that there is also an abundance of lame micros, but there is also some great ones. There is also an abundance of lame requlars. Again we cannot go back. We can choose which ones we want to hunt. We like variety. We do not feel that our stats are cheapened because they were post 2004.

 

Yep what the Girls said.....

 

Instead of getting angry at them or taking away their stats, lets change what they call normal. Groundspeak may need to help, because the intentions of the game need to be preserved. Features like only allowing one find per listing will help. Other changes in guidelines may need to be added to slow the trend.

 

Overall the community needs to frown upon the behavior, because if it's not "cool" to do it, then there won't be those trying to boost their numbers dishonestly, when they know doing so will make them look bad. In general it is social cachers that do this, and their reputation is probably important to them.

 

As far as stats I agree with what Airmapper said....change the way people think about the numbers. But since GS still allows multiple finds on caches and events...that may show they do not see it as a problem.

[+Ed_S]

How about amending that to "No Stats, unless you want your stats known"?

 

Hi Richard!! Long time, no cache with!! (how've you been, anyway?)

 

I just wanted to observe that some people who would still want their stats known are the ones to whom numbers are important enough for them to 'cheat' in their stats and/or finds. Me - I just started keeping track of such things as FTFs because other local cachers are doing it, and I have more FTFs than they do (but I've been caching longer). It doesn't really matter to me, other than for the fun I have teasing my friends and fellow cachers.

 

Maybe the option should be "No Stats, unless you want to see everyone's stats" or something along those lines.