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Is My Opinion Overboard?


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I have never understood the allure of temporary caches and why some folks think an event has to have temp caches.

 

At our recent Texas Challenge weekend, there were dozens of people searching for the temporary caches placed in the state park just for the event. Everyone looked to be having a BLAST out geocaching in their groups, so I definitely see the allure of having the temp caches at events....I mean, that's our hobby, isn't it?

 

HOWEVER, I don't see the thought behind logging these as real caches. I've never understood why people logged the events multiple times to claim a find and I REALLY don't get the idea of logging your "find" on a real or archived cache.

 

I've seen it mentioned before....but why must everything you do "earn" you a smiley?

 

I've never really cared what others do to count their smileys (giving away bonus smileys, etc)...but I do have a problem when you're abusing the use of listed caches to do it.

 

This isn't going to take away from my enjoyment of this activity really, but I sure can't see the justification in congratulating anyone for a "milestone" any more.

 

Whatever accomplishment they might have stood for, they're now just a count of "something you did", but maybe not found a geocaching.com cache.

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Just a comment (by his wife)..."The Cache" - It was what it was when you found it in Iraq - something very special and unique. You should be very proud. Our son is in Iraq right now and it made me look up geocaches there. I was very surprised to actually see that they are there! Anyhow, now that the cache is here (in Texas from what I think I understand), I think that people back home are looking at it as very special and unique! This cache has been to someplace where most of us will never be and has been touched by fellow geocachers that are soldiers! To me, this would make one feel proud! It just makes it something very special to share!! That's my take on it anyhow. I've been reading about your caches JeepDog. I've been looking for a good hide idea for our son to look for when he has his 2 weeks in June. He needs something pretty challenging!! But, I understand what you are saying and feel very sad that there are those who would not have that kind of respect for somthing like this. Thanks! <_<

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Another comment (by his wife) that didn't get added...If this is permissible on this site... you can send soldiers packages and/or letters to show your support through anysoldier.com. We have sent many packages this way. Take a look at the site-pretty awesome! Thank you.

Edited by mountainxplorer
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I'm sure H2nut didn't realize the furor his cache would create. I completely missed seeing this cache at GW, but I did have the honor of walking up a hill with and finding a cache with him. ( A real, numbered, permanent cache). I had never met him before this time, but he is the real deal. He has served for 22 years, and getting ready to retire from the Army. I think his intentions were entirely honorable.

 

Please review a quote from one of my earlier postings below. Defending the cache owner is not necessary. If cachers placed a note instead of a "thanks for the smiley," this would be a different matter. The point is the guidelines were broken by those claiming a find. I'm not sure "permission" was granted to claim a find in the first place, but that is moot, since the owner rectifing the situation and abiding by the guidelines. H2NUT sent me a personal email, explaining his plans on the cache and apologizing. I replied he neither owed me an explanation or the plan. He is fixing it, I do not "blame" him, end of story.

 

Earlier posting:

 

"I never insinuated that the owner had anything but the best intentions. It would have been nice of the GW4 announcement had been made on the cache page for the cache over here, but I will not cast blame for that oversight. I wold have also asked those visiting the duplicate to take their "smiley," if that is all it meant to them, from the GW4 page and not the one in Iraq, but I am not perfect either, so will reserve judgement on the cache owner's calls. It is also possible good intentions could have unintended consequences. It is difficult to think through all of the possibilities. In this case, altruism morphed into a selfish quest of the smiley."

Edited by Jeep_Dog
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Because that's the way it's been done as long as I can remember. Never heard anyone say--this is a no no as far as Groundspeak goes. People have been finding and logging temporary caches at lots of events, and signing in multiple times. Why didn't Groundspeak put a stop to this if it was such a horrible and evil thing?

 

There is nothing wrong with temporary caches at events.

 

The problem is logging the temporary caches online, or on an archived cache or with multiple attendance logs. This practice has only just started to become widespread. So far, it has never happened in NJ, for example, or in other areas. I dont think that Groundspeak did anything when it started, because the practice is stupid and they never expected it to spread. Or that people would actually try to defend their actions.

 

If you were out hiking alone in the forest and you found a pack of cigarettes in the woods, would you log a "find" on an archived cache? Of course not. But if you found it in the woods behind a Geoevent, would you? or how about if your buddy hid it at a event? What if he took the cigarettes out, and put a piece of paper in it? Does that mean that you attended the event twice?

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
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There is nothing wrong with temporary caches at events.
I don't understand why they need to be temporary. My wife and I have hosted one event, our 2nd one is coming up in about a week. Both events had caches but they were real permanent caches. Why is it difficult to do that? Setting up a cache takes some time, does setting up a temp cache take less time? If so, what part of the guidelines are being skipped, and if none, why not make it permanent?

 

Paul

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There is nothing wrong with temporary caches at events.
I don't understand why they need to be temporary. My wife and I have hosted one event, our 2nd one is coming up in about a week. Both events had caches but they were real permanent caches. Why is it difficult to do that? Setting up a cache takes some time, does setting up a temp cache take less time? If so, what part of the guidelines are being skipped, and if none, why not make it permanent?

 

Paul

 

The temp caches at many events are placed too closely together to ever be approved on GC.com.

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There is nothing wrong with temporary caches at events.
I don't understand why they need to be temporary. My wife and I have hosted one event, our 2nd one is coming up in about a week. Both events had caches but they were real permanent caches. Why is it difficult to do that? Setting up a cache takes some time, does setting up a temp cache take less time? If so, what part of the guidelines are being skipped, and if none, why not make it permanent?

 

Paul

Yes, setting up temp caches can take far less time. In my experience, the big events I've been to that have temporary caches set up have taken place in Indiana State Parks, which have restrictions on how many permanent caches can be in the park at any one time, and where they can be located. Temporary caches, while placed with the approval and assistance of the land managers, so as not to damage any endangered-species habitats (or the endangered species' themselves), cannot stay past the event due to those permanent-cache restrictions.

I'm very much in favor of having temporary caches, but not logging them. The increasingly widespread practice of it affect even the people who don't log them - and not in just the ways cited here. I helped out with one large event, and I've attended a few more, and every single time there were temporary event caches, at least one group of people wanted to argue with the event "owner" because they weren't allowed to log the event multiple times (due to the owner's rules on the cache). Eventually, each time, the owner gave in and said, "fine, whatever - you want to cheat, if it's that important to you that you feel some deep need to stand here and waste my time and yours arguing with me about it, then fine. I don't care. Log them all. Whatever."

So now you've got a case of The Will of the Many (or at least the Obnoxiously Persistent Numbers Hos) overriding the wishes of the cache owner. You can argue all you like about how the cache owner should have stayed persistent and should have deleted the logs and all that. Sure, I suppose that would've been the "obvious" solution - but these cache events are supposed to be FUN.

If organizing event caches meant I had to stand there and argue the same stupid thing, over and over again, with people that were just going to refuse to "get it", and then was going to have to take the time to DELETE a multiple of logs from each of those SAME PEOPLE, then that would be my last event I organized.

How many people WOULD voluntarily do that, over and over and over again? How long would it take for most people who DO put on excellent events to say, "Ah, the heck with it. It's not worth it." and those EXCELLENT events would go away?

You can say I'm exaggerating, you can say I'm overreacting...but I've seen it happen. I've seen at least one cacher completely QUIT putting on events (and he'd done an excellent job on them) because of carp like that. It took YEARS for our area to get good events again - and the same kind of garbage is going down again. The cache owner doesn't like the "multi-logging" but has decided that it's not worth fighting with the Numbers Hos about it, and so allows the multi-logging.

Edited by PAWSitraction
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Wow, things on this cache have taken a good turn :rolleyes:

 

I feel bad for the owner of the cache who was trying to do a good thing, and ended up with the drama that ensued. I'm glad things on the cache page are starting to clean up, and hopefully now this cache and the items people left to go into the real cache in Iraq can be put together and the cache can be reactivated (hopefully).

 

Thanks to all the troops over there. Hopefully in a few years things will calm down enough over there so the more adventureous cachers not in the military can wander over and try for this cache in place. :(

 

Celticwulf

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The words honesty and integrity are not as absolute as you seem to think.

 

I am sitting here in disbelief. Is this really what we have become?

 

Why? Because not everyone agrees with your general opinion?

 

No. Because if honesty and integrity are not absolute in someones life, they do not exist at all.

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I don't understand why they need to be temporary. My wife and I have hosted one event, our 2nd one is coming up in about a week. Both events had caches but they were real permanent caches. Why is it difficult to do that? Setting up a cache takes some time, does setting up a temp cache take less time? If so, what part of the guidelines are being skipped, and if none, why not make it permanent?

 

Paul

Yes, setting up temp caches can take far less time. In my experience, the big events I've been to that have temporary caches set up have taken place in Indiana State Parks, which have restrictions on how many permanent caches can be in the park at any one time, and where they can be located. Temporary caches, while placed with the approval and assistance of the land managers, so as not to damage any endangered-species habitats (or the endangered species' themselves), cannot stay past the event due to those permanent-cache restrictions.

 

Ahh, that makes sense. The only events I've been to have been weekday dinner/drinks events. Some don't have caches, the ones we have hosted to. The caches are not in the restaurant, but rather in the surrounding area. When the event is over, we release the caches (via printouts) and the FTFP fiends rush out to grab them. Quite a bit of jolly fun.

 

Paul

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The cache is back in service.

 

The warm support that was intended by the owner is certainly being felt. Euphoria over the recognition is being felt.

 

This is not a result of having "won" anything like a disagreement over the guidelines.

 

No, it is over the superb logs being entered, and the good tidings being offered on the cache page.

 

I think that is what the owner had intended at GW4.

 

Our geocaching community may suffer rifts in opinions at times. However, often very obvious positive signs of self-correction and understanding abound.

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That is wonderful, I was sad to see it was briefly archived, glad to see it back with notes from the weekend.

 

This is the kind of understanding and resolution that could from "both sides" of the issue when it comes to all the caches discussed in the fray recently. I don't see any need to archive the existing caches if they are returned to their hiding places, with notes instead of finds. No reason people can't keep a recorded note on the pages.

 

I would like to add my Thanks to our troops over there and hope more get a chance to find the cache.

 

I would also say Thanks to those at GW4 who added items into the container and sent their good wishes, I'm sure those will be greatly enjoyed.

 

edit: Aye cain't speel guud

Edited by MountainMudbug
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It is not, and was never intended to be, an insult.

To quote Larry the Cable Guy, "That there's funny, I don't care who you are".

 

Of course it was an insult. Everybody knows it was an insult. To deny it now merely cheapens your moral position.

 

If you claim to have found a cache that you did not it is a lie. One who lies is correctly titled a liar. So you can see it’s merely a statement of fact, nothing personal.

 

But if you make a find, according to your personal definitions, and somebody from the Holy Church of BetterThanYou comes along after the fact and says "This ain't no find", you have a disagreement, not a lie. If, during a disagreement, the holier than thou side starts spewing such intolerant, closed minded filth as "Lier" and "Cheater", the only purpose can be as an insult. Even those way up on their high horses know that there was no lie, ergo, there can be no liar.

 

You can make all the snarky comments you like, it’s still wrong and you know it.

 

Just cuz someone disagrees with you, and plays this little game differently than you, does not mean there are great tears in the moral space/time continuum. Did you know I've actually logged a find on a puzzle cache that I did not solve? It only took 3 days of searching to find the cache. Did you know I've logged finds on group hunts where I was not the actual person who found the container? Sure, I was standing next to them when they found it, but I didn't actually find it myself. Oh the humanity! I've been exposed! Just call me "Clan Lying, Cheating Riffster". Can the Holy Church forgive such blasphemy?

 

Thanx for adding to my own personal dictionary. I never heard of "Snarky" before. Must be a regional thing. :(

 

Ya know what's really odd? I bet you & I, as well as most of the other folks perched way up on their high horses, cache pretty much the same. See a cache page, load the coordinates, park at the trailhead, hoof it to the ammo can, sign the log, go home and log on-line. The primary difference is I'm open minded. I choose not to act in a manner that some might label as fanatical or even fascist. I learned in Kindergarten that having a different opinion does not make you a liar, and that doing something differently does not make you a cheater. I reckon you never learned that lesson. But at least you know what "Snarky" means. I gotta give you kudos for that! :rolleyes:

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Sigh. I thought, perhaps, things would die down with the guidelines enforced, and some understanding ensued.

 

Now, a couple of emails later, one saying "I hope you are happy now," I suppose my thoughts were wrong.

 

By the way, no, I am not happy now. In fact, I am quite the opposite. I am totally disgusted. A thousand thanks to the collective selfishness that has turned my stomach to one outdoor pastime that I loved so dearly, and helped me keep my sanity. Hope has turned into a nightmare.

 

Melodramatic? Perhaps. Then again, a lot of the crap I deal with on a daily basis is surreal and melodramatic.

 

One last point. "It is understandable to want a cache to be unique and to be the one to find that particular cache, but don't insult us by inferring that we did this only for a smilley face" was left on the cache page after things returned to "normal." A lot of insult abounded, sure enough, but obviously not in a form that you could fathom.

 

EDIT: Consider, for example, after the finds were changed to notes that within an hour of the cache being restored, another GW4 "finder" logs a find with "I really enjoyed the hunt. TNLNSL." Now, if this cache at GW4 was so moving, so inspirational, and gets you in touch with troops and cachers over here, then why cannot these same people take but a few moments to read the cache page, and read the logs OF THOSE WHO ARE ACTUALLY HERE AND FOUND IT? Does this seem like concern or care? It is obvious even a simple act of reading the logs of cachers in Iraq that found it has not occurred, or the "find" would not have been posted.

 

Do you know what is insulting? The fact that this behavior flies in the face of logic that such "finds" are in honor and support of those in Iraq caching! Do I imply that everyone at GW4 who visited this duplicate cache is just as guilty of this callousness? NO! However, please try, just for one second, to see through different eyes and see how this is hugely insulting, and why it is bothersome to have such callous found logs keep popping up. Also, perhaps see for one second, that notes, as opposed to a quick and thoughtless found-it log, are much more credible contributions of support, and in the spirit that the cache owner intended. :END EDIT

 

I believe I was respectul enough to point out I was not judging others, it was just the actions of others bothered me.

 

I tossed it out there without malice, and if the shoe fits, then, well, wear it. If you are not wearing the shoe, at least I can easily spot that you are sincere.

Edited by Jeep_Dog
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It is not, and was never intended to be, an insult.

To quote Larry the Cable Guy, "That there's funny, I don't care who you are".

 

Of course it was an insult. Everybody knows it was an insult. To deny it now merely cheapens your moral position.

 

If you claim to have found a cache that you did not it is a lie. One who lies is correctly titled a liar. So you can see it’s merely a statement of fact, nothing personal.

 

But if you make a find, according to your personal definitions, and somebody from the Holy Church of BetterThanYou comes along after the fact and says "This ain't no find", you have a disagreement, not a lie. If, during a disagreement, the holier than thou side starts spewing such intolerant, closed minded filth as "Lier" and "Cheater", the only purpose can be as an insult. Even those way up on their high horses know that there was no lie, ergo, there can be no liar.

 

You can make all the snarky comments you like, it’s still wrong and you know it.

 

Just cuz someone disagrees with you, and plays this little game differently than you, does not mean there are great tears in the moral space/time continuum. Did you know I've actually logged a find on a puzzle cache that I did not solve? It only took 3 days of searching to find the cache. Did you know I've logged finds on group hunts where I was not the actual person who found the container? Sure, I was standing next to them when they found it, but I didn't actually find it myself. Oh the humanity! I've been exposed! Just call me "Clan Lying, Cheating Riffster". Can the Holy Church forgive such blasphemy?

 

Thanx for adding to my own personal dictionary. I never heard of "Snarky" before. Must be a regional thing. :)

 

Ya know what's really odd? I bet you & I, as well as most of the other folks perched way up on their high horses, cache pretty much the same. See a cache page, load the coordinates, park at the trailhead, hoof it to the ammo can, sign the log, go home and log on-line. The primary difference is I'm open minded. I choose not to act in a manner that some might label as fanatical or even fascist. I learned in Kindergarten that having a different opinion does not make you a liar, and that doing something differently does not make you a cheater. I reckon you never learned that lesson. But at least you know what "Snarky" means. I gotta give you kudos for that! :)

Hmmm, I need to dumb this down even more. If you fall into a vat a green paint and stand up, I might observe that you are green. It isn’t an insult, it’s merely a truthful observation. Your greenness wasn’t caused by my definition of green, it’s a result of your situation.

 

Your weak attempts at insulting those of us who play by the rules as “Holy Church of BetterThanYou” {sic} only makes you look immature. Somehow, without idiot’s guides and forums, I, and the rest of the early geocaching community, figured out how to play the game. “Found” is not a personal definition; it’s a commonly used word in the English language. If you print out the cache page, you’ll notice a set of coordinates near the top. Most likely, unless it’s a puzzle cache, that’s where the cache is. You cannot assign a coordinate set to someone’s pocket, unless they're immobile (dead). There’s nothing ambiguous about it, if you claim to have found a cache (which is all the elements of the cache like the container, the coordinate set, and possibly the log) when you did not, you have lied. Whether we agree or disagree is immaterial, a lie is a lie. This argument reminds me of Clinton trying to redefine the word ‘is’ to excuse his lies. Found means found, if you say you did when you didn’t, it’s a lie. I don’t say it to hurt your feelings, I say it as a simple observation.

 

Further, it’s not about ‘how you play the game’, the game is to go to a location and find the cache. That's the game. If you’re playing it any other way, you’re not geocaching.

 

As to finding a puzzle cache without completing the puzzle, I’m all for it. I once found a locked cache that had a travel bug associated with it. You were supposed to find the travel bug with the key attached to get the coordinates to find the cache and open it. I elected to increase the challenge by finding it without the coordinates on the bug and picked the lock open. In the end, I was at the correct location and my name is in the logbook.

Edited by Criminal
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I elected to increase the challenge by finding it without the coordinates on the bug and picked the lock open. In the end, I was at the correct location and my name is in the logbook.

 

Ahh...so NOW we begin to understand why his name is Criminal :)

 

Sorry, had to lighten things up a bit...I pretty much agree with Criminal, but that's just humorus :)

 

Celticwulf

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Ya know what's really odd? I bet you & I, as well as most of the other folks... cache pretty much the same. See a cache page, load the coordinates, park at the trailhead, hoof it to the ammo can, sign the log, go home and log on-line.

That's what started this site. I think it has been rather successful.

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Just a comment (by his wife)..."The Cache" - It was what it was when you found it in Iraq - something very special and unique. You should be very proud. Our son is in Iraq right now and it made me look up geocaches there. I was very surprised to actually see that they are there! Anyhow, now that the cache is here (in Texas from what I think I understand), I think that people back home are looking at it as very special and unique! This cache has been to someplace where most of us will never be and has been touched by fellow geocachers that are soldiers! To me, this would make one feel proud! It just makes it something very special to share!! That's my take on it anyhow. I've been reading about your caches JeepDog. I've been looking for a good hide idea for our son to look for when he has his 2 weeks in June. He needs something pretty challenging!! But, I understand what you are saying and feel very sad that there are those who would not have that kind of respect for somthing like this. Thanks! :)

 

I don't think anyone would argue with that. It's a great idea... bring it to Texas and let the attendees at GeoWoodstock check it out... maybe let folks add some notes or cool trinkets for the guys to find when the cache arrives back at it's coordinates... in Iraq.

 

No need for anyone to log it here. Doesn't that tarnish it's "unique" and "special" qualities?

 

Driver Carries Cache

(madmike)

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Hmmm, I need to dumb this down even more.

Sigh......

Yeah, I'd agree. You need to dumb it down some more. One of us isn't getting it. I'll let you be the judge of who that one person is, since you seem to take such joy in judging.

 

Lemme try the explanation I usually reserve for when I take statements from little kids;

A lie is knowingly stating a falsehood.

Pretty simple, huh?

 

If I know my Toyota is a piece of junk, (it is, trust me), yet I tell you it's the greatest 4x4 ever made, I've told a lie. If I believe my Toyota really is the greatest 4x4 ever made, (even though reality clearly dictates it's ready for the boneyard), I might be delusional, but I would not be a liar. If you insist on repeatedly calling me a liar when I did not lie, then you are making an insult, not an observation. Another analogy, if you will; You're driving through downtown ________ (insert town of choice here), and go through an intersection. I believe, based upon my observations, that you ran a red light, and write you a ticket, accusing you of doing so. Even if you "prove" in court that you did not run the red light, have I lied? Of course not. Our perceptions were different.

 

Your weak attempts at insulting those of us who play by the rules as “Holy Church of BetterThanYou” {sic} only makes you look immature.

For the record, my weak attempts were directed not at those who play by the guidelines, but at those folks who are so closed minded and judgmental that they feel compelled to insult anyone who doesn't see the world quite the same way that they do. Most people picked up on that. I guess you didn't. Sorry. I'll try to be clearer in my weak attempts in the future. I believe that I play by the generally accepted guidelines, just as you do, so I would only be insulting myself by referring to anyone who followed the guidelines as holier than thou. Quite frankly, I like the guidelines. I firmly believe that without those guidelines being in place, this game that we all love so much wouldn't last very long.

Slightly off topic here;

I'm of an age where I really don't mind looking immature now and then. Anything that can help shed a few decades can't be too bad. However, as a favor to the more serious minded readers of this forum, I'll try not to revert to "I know you are, but what am I". :(

 

This argument reminds me of Clinton trying to redefine the word ‘is’ to excuse his lies.

This argument reminds me of Mel Brooks singing about The Inquisition in his film History of the World. He tried poking a little fun at some religious fanatics, and got sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Hmmm...Imagine that. :( Seriously, Brother. You're letting this thing stress you out way too much. Stating an opinion is one thing. Calling someone a liar and/or a cheater simply because they don't see things the same way you do is a little much. Hopefully you'll learn as you get older that the world is far to vast for only one viewpoint.

 

Found means found, if you say you did when you didn’t, it’s a lie.

I think you mentioned that earlier during one of your previous rants. I didn't agree with you then. I don't agree with you now. It can only be a lie if the person telling it knowingly stated a falsehood. If I have a different definition of "find" than you, and I claim a "find" that you don't think should qualify as such, your particular belief system is irrelevant in determining if I lied. Incidentally, I think we both have the same definition of "find". My debate is primarily focused on your tyrannical insistence that everyone who does not agree with you must be liars. That's the point where our karmas diverge.

 

Since we both seem to be beating different sides of this dead horse, can we just agree to disagree, or would that be to immature for a seasoned veteran like yourself? I don't see you changing your mind simply because you've been offered an alternate viewpoint, and in all the years I've been alive, nobody has ever convinced me to change my mind using insults. As such, we can continue to pound our respective keyboards until one or both of us are banned, or we can simply accept the fact that I don't agree with you, and you don't agree with me, and we can both walk away from this without either of us getting our panties in a wad.

 

The ball's in your court.

 

Post script; Thanx again for "Snarky". :(

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Just got this email. Had to edit it so as not to get banned from the forums myself, but the unedited version has been forwarded to Groundspeak.

--This message was sent through http://www.geocaching.com --

 

Such an ***HOLE. This is a duplicate cache so we can be part of their lives. There is always someone

like you that just can not shut their mouth. You have done a disservice to everyone that wants to be

part of the lives of those in Iraq. Shut up if you do not know what is going on.

 

User's Profile:

http://www.geocaching.com/profile/?guid=29...af-001413c30f30

Guess that makes it all right. Carry on.

How cynical, to use our troops as an excuse to pad numbers.

 

This discussion leaves me a little puzzled, because I guess I can picture a bunch of cachers thinking it was meaningful to sign this as a gesture with all good motives, and devoid of "smilie greed,"............... I guess. Curious to see what next year brings. I mean, THIS makes sense to me:

May 28 by H2Nut (676 found)

To All: As the owner of this cache I want to explain the intent of this cache being displayed at GeoWoodstock 4. Not being a large cacher hider, I should have temporary disabled this cache - but did not wanting to make it unavailble for anyone in country trying to log it. This cache was placed at the event as an opportunity to show what caching is going in Iraq. After all this is what Geocaching is all about - discovering new things. The cache site included a map of the locations and photographs of cachers in country. I have also collecting items (TBs, GeoCoins, and other items) to be sent back to Iraq for our cachers there unable to be present for this event. There was no intent to violate any rules, but to share the great stuff happening in Iraq!! Request the cache be unachieved so it can continue to support caching.

but then, I could go and take a couple of my caches down and so could others, and then (while it wouldn't actually destroy anyone's life or anything) it could become pretty distasteful.

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However, THIS:

I think you mentioned that earlier during one of your previous rants. I didn't agree with you then. I don't agree with you now. It can only be a lie if the person telling it knowingly stated a falsehood. If I have a different definition of "find" than you, and I claim a "find" that you don't think should qualify as such, your particular belief system is irrelevant in determining if I lied. Incidentally, I think we both have the same definition of "find". My debate is primarily focused on your tyrannical insistence that everyone who does not agree with you must be liars. That's the point where our karmas diverge.
only works for Bill Clinton!
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The words honesty and integrity are not as absolute as you seem to think.

 

I am sitting here in disbelief. Is this really what we have become?

 

Why? Because not everyone agrees with your general opinion?

 

No. Because if honesty and integrity are not absolute in someones life, they do not exist at all.

 

It's their meaning that is up for grabs, and your meaning is simply one among many.

 

But this is america, where everyone's opinion is right; that must make you feel good about yourself.

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The words honesty and integrity are not as absolute as you seem to think.

 

I am sitting here in disbelief. Is this really what we have become?

 

Why? Because not everyone agrees with your general opinion?

 

No. Because if honesty and integrity are not absolute in someones life, they do not exist at all.

 

It's their meaning that is up for grabs, and your meaning is simply one among many.

 

But this is america, where everyone's opinion is right; that must make you feel good about yourself.

 

I'm sorry Vashuers, but I'm going to have to agree with Klatch. Thank God I live in America where everyone has the right to an opinion, but not everyone's opinion is right. And that's fine, if we all had the same opinions then life would be pretty dull.

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Wow, what a read this whole topic was.

 

Seems awfully silly to me though

 

1) From what I can tell most of hte logged visits have been changed to thank you notes so are those of you crying blaspemy ready to take it back?

 

2) Some here are dissapointed that the thought behind it was lost by some. Well, so what? The thought was obviously very much understood by a lot of people who left very kind words and thoughts. Why spend time worrying about the people that "didn't get it" instead of appreciating the thoughts of the people who did.

 

Personally I thought it was a pretty cool thing to do on Memorial day. Perhaps there could have been an adjustment to make sure that the purists who value the sanctity of the holy smiley faces don't get upset, but hey, it's the thought that counts. As a vet myself, when I was in uniform, I always appreciated the thanks and congratulations I got from those who cared and rarely thought much about the thoughts of those who didn't give a whit about my service. I wasn't in Iraq, and my particular era (cold war) was a lot less politically controversial as it is today, but I still appreciated the thank you's in whatever form they came (when they came).

 

3) As someone who's been hunting caches for years (casually, it's not an obsession) I actually have very few official smiley faces to my credit, but dozens and dozens of very happy memories treking around (and more than a few disappointments at caches not at their listed locations), so I don't get the whole obsession with how many caches you've logged. I don't get it, plain and simple. Who really cares if so-and-so has 2313 logged caches, or someone else has spent their time logging caches they haven't actually found.

 

4) I do have a problem with people putting up pocket caches though. I'm just a stupid casual cacher, and when I download the waypoints and go hunting for a cache I expect it to be at the coord's, not in your doggone pocket 100 miles away. If you want to do an event cache thing, cool, go for it, but why spend time corrupting the geocaching.com website when you can just make a list of caches and hand them out for your event and leave it at that? Again, I don't get it. Maybe I'm just too simple and unedumacated to understand the glory of having an "Official illegal pocket cache". JerseyGirl you sure look silly complaining about the sanctity of your precious web page that's for a fake cache that may or may not be at the coordinates you have posted depending on if you happen to be at an event or not. My congrats to criminal that spotted it, (or whoever it was).

 

Those are my 2 cents :)

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We attended both GW3 and GW4 and learned a lot at both events. We are from California and it seems that people cache differently in each state. The basic concept is of course the same but lots of variation. At times we participated in the craziness and at other times we just observed. When you are actually there it's hard to not get caught up in the moment so I wouldn't hold it against anyone who did.

 

Sometimes there are caches hidden at events that haven't been approved yet so all you get are coordinates, you go find the cache, sign you name, and later receive the GC number and log your visit. Sometimes cache owners bring their caches with them, you receive the coordinates, you find the cache, you obtain the GC number then log your visit. Sometimes the cache is just sitting there, nobody tells you anything, you ask questions about it then find that it an event cache that you can sign, and it will be hidden later after which you can log your find. All of the above do actually involve finding the cache.

 

I don't know anything about the Iraq cache but I did sign the log for a cache brought from Florida by someone that we had met when we attended GW3. The cache container was actually a camping porta-potty that usually sits on the cache owners front porch. We did participate because we felt that it was hilarious that he toted that thing with him from Florida.

 

Anyway...we had a great time, we were in the area for 5 days and only found about 15 caches total. There was a time that we would have really worked to get the numbers but frankly, this trip we decided to be tourists and visit things like the JFK Memorial, the Oaklahoma City Memorial, etc. We found that most of these places had caches (a lot of virtual) so the caches were like a bonus. Lots of people don't consider virtuals to be "real" caches but we love them. They are one of the original types of caches and new ones are not being approved so we are going to enjoy them while we can.

 

I guess I am just saying that no matter where you go, there is a good chance that there will be something about the style of caching done in that area that you don't approve of. But I say "when in Rome...." If it is something that you don't approve of, don't do it. Since the numbers really don't mean anything do what you want. I have a good memory from each and every cache that we have logged and each and every purple frownie. For us, this is all about the experience and the good time. I don't need anyones approval or permission.

 

Here's hoping that GW5 is in California!!!

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Seems awfully silly to me though

 

1) From what I can tell most of hte logged visits have been changed to thank you notes so are those of you crying blaspemy ready to take it back?

 

 

Logging a cache 7500 miles away seemed slily to me. I am glad we can find a common ground via silliness.

 

In response to your first point, I had already added this log on the cache page:

 

May 31 by Jeep_Dog

Thank you to erik, one of the most responsive reviewers I have come across, for reconsidering this cache and getting it back on line so quickly. Obviously, this cache means quite a bit to some of us over here.

 

Thank you to the cache owner for considering Iraq cachers' and veteran Iraq cachers' opinions, and enforcing the guidelines on this cache.

 

Thank you to the TX cachers for considering our thoughts on this cache, and changing finds to logs. Your unselfish thoughts are quite appreciated.

 

A HUGE thank you for the wonderful notes on this cache. Please also remember to watch other caches in this area. Your support, appreciation, and good tidings mean the world to us.

 

Enough said from me on that topic.

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We personally had a great time at GWIV and having done a nine mile hike with the person that brought the cache from IRAQ, I feel that the gentleman was very sincere in his intentions. AND, since i am a COMBAT veteran from viet nam and not a pseudo commando, i feel that this really would not offend the troops in IRAQ.

 

Mike

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We personally had a great time at GWIV and having done a nine mile hike with the person that brought the cache from IRAQ, I feel that the gentleman was very sincere in his intentions. AND, since i am a COMBAT veteran from viet nam and not a pseudo commando, i feel that this really would not offend the troops in IRAQ.

 

Mike

 

As was posted by multiple cachers stationed in Iraq: They really didn't have any problem with NOTES of support and well-wishing. The problem came when, on a cache located in Iraq that they had found and had a great time on, suddenly there were 20+ "Found it" logs saying "Found at GW4, thanks for the smiley" or some variation as such. I also believe the owner DID have the best of intentions, and I respect him for what he tried to do and also for how he's handled the issue.

 

I'm still just confused as to how anyone feels a "found it" log on a cache that has posted coordinates in Iraq is appropriate when all that they found was a duplicate in Texas. If anyone can really explain that to me, I'm still willing to listen.

 

Celticwulf

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The words honesty and integrity are not as absolute as you seem to think.

 

I am sitting here in disbelief. Is this really what we have become?

 

Why? Because not everyone agrees with your general opinion?

 

No. Because if honesty and integrity are not absolute in someones life, they do not exist at all.

 

It's their meaning that is up for grabs, and your meaning is simply one among many.

 

But this is america, where everyone's opinion is right; that must make you feel good about yourself.

 

I'm sorry Vashuers, but I'm going to have to agree with Klatch. Thank God I live in America where everyone has the right to an opinion, but not everyone's opinion is right. And that's fine, if we all had the same opinions then life would be pretty dull.

 

I don't think you understand what you are agreeing with. The point is that dude thinks there is only one way to understand honesty and integrity, namely the nomenalistic way. My point was that he was wrong to assume that honesty is absolute, to which he seems to think we are left floating in the abyss. Nevertheless, his lack of sight causes him to mistakenly assume anything, even honesty, is absolute. If the Nazi's knock on your door asking you if you are hidding Jews in the basement, which you happen to be doing, are you going to be honest with them? If not, where does one draw the line? Who determines where or when we draw the line? You say saving a life is the line, how about if you know where Hitler is and some one who wants to kill him asks you where he is, are you honest with them even if it costs a life? Is it the numbers of lives that are stake? If we know polluting rivers kills fish in the Amazon and small tribes that have spent thousands of years living on the fish begin to starve because the of the pollution, should we honestly stop polluting the rivers? Or is progress more honest than tradition?

 

Be very careful with blind american band standing.

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I was asked to bring some temporary caches to Woodstock. I took 3 that I thought were unusual containers that maybe people in different parts of the country had not seen before. All of the comments I received were positive and several people asked permission to copy the idea in their home states.

I thought it would be great to share new ideas with people who may not get to travel much and see new types of containers. They have been archived now.

 

I think it's neat that you were able to show off your interesting containers to people who have never seen those cache styles. But I don't understand why you would tell them to log the cache...

Because that's the way it's been done as long as I can remember. Never heard anyone say--this is a no no as far as Groundspeak goes. People have been finding and logging temporary caches at lots of events, and signing in multiple times. Why didn't Groundspeak put a stop to this if it was such a horrible and evil thing?

 

I think mainly it is a localized problem, that has started to grow larger as new cachers see it and think it is alright as they follow the lead of their peers. 3 areas come to mind MI. FLA. and I guess now TX.

All the events that I've been to have had caches placed in the area for that event, but they were listed on GC.com,if there were any temps I never heard about them.

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The words honesty and integrity are not as absolute as you seem to think.

 

I am sitting here in disbelief. Is this really what we have become?

 

Why? Because not everyone agrees with your general opinion?

 

No. Because if honesty and integrity are not absolute in someones life, they do not exist at all.

 

It's their meaning that is up for grabs, and your meaning is simply one among many.

 

But this is america, where everyone's opinion is right; that must make you feel good about yourself.

 

I'm sorry Vashuers, but I'm going to have to agree with Klatch. Thank God I live in America where everyone has the right to an opinion, but not everyone's opinion is right. And that's fine, if we all had the same opinions then life would be pretty dull.

 

I don't think you understand what you are agreeing with. The point is that dude thinks there is only one way to understand honesty and integrity, namely the nomenalistic way. My point was that he was wrong to assume that honesty is absolute, to which he seems to think we are left floating in the abyss. Nevertheless, his lack of sight causes him to mistakenly assume anything, even honesty, is absolute. If the Nazi's knock on your door asking you if you are hidding Jews in the basement, which you happen to be doing, are you going to be honest with them? If not, where does one draw the line? Who determines where or when we draw the line? You say saving a life is the line, how about if you know where Hitler is and some one who wants to kill him asks you where he is, are you honest with them even if it costs a life? Is it the numbers of lives that are stake? If we know polluting rivers kills fish in the Amazon and small tribes that have spent thousands of years living on the fish begin to starve because the of the pollution, should we honestly stop polluting the rivers? Or is progress more honest than tradition?

 

Be very careful with blind american band standing.

 

Yes I do understand what I'm agreeing with. Your concept of moral relativity has at its logical end, the point where it is ok to do anything. While we're on the Nazi references, moral relativity used by you and first put forth by Fredrick Neitzche, was the basis for the Nazi dogma of killing the unpure. The Storm troopers were doing the honest thing in thier minds.

 

OK now that we've left the thread here entirely and have reached a debate about the definition of honesty, its time to move on. Great minds have debated honesty,ethics and the nature of good and evil for centuries.

It still isn't settled and may never be.

 

As for american band standing , I am proud to be an American. If your not, thats ok with me.

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Yes I do understand what I'm agreeing with. Your concept of moral relativity has at its logical end, the point where it is ok to do anything. While we're on the Nazi references, moral relativity used by you and first put forth by Fredrick Neitzche, was the basis for the Nazi dogma of killing the unpure. The Storm troopers were doing the honest thing in thier minds.

 

OK now that we've left the thread here entirely and have reached a debate about the definition of honesty, its time to move on. Great minds have debated honesty,ethics and the nature of good and evil for centuries.

It still isn't settled and may never be.

 

As for american band standing , I am proud to be an American. If your not, thats ok with me.

 

That was my point, not sure how anything you said changes that?

 

As to Neitzsche, it was not his views that were put forth by the Nazi party, in fact, the Nazi party arose quite indepently of Neitzsche's work. Moreover, it was only after Neitzsche was locked away in the nut house that his sister gave particular selections of his work to friends she had in the party, and what she gave them only gave a rough overview of Neitzsche's work which is much to difficult to sum up with the vague assertion of "moral relativity."

 

If you would like to debate philosophical issues however, you have come to the right place. Bottom line remains, dude was wrong to assert that there is only one form of honesty and intrigity.

Edited by Vashuers
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A) We personally had a great time at GWIV and having done a nine mile hike with the person that B ) brought the cache from IRAQ, I feel that the C) gentleman was very sincere in his intentions. D) AND, since i am a COMBAT veteran from viet nam and not a pseudo commando, E) i feel that this really would not offend the troops in IRAQ.

 

A) I am glad you enjoyed GW4. It is nice to meet fellow cachers, no?

 

B ) I can report quite definitively that the cache you saw at GW4 was not "brought" from Iraq. I visited the cache in March 06. Then, when the "found" logs began showing up, and knowing the owner was 7500 miles away, I went to verify the "finds" against the "found logs" in attempt to assist the cache owner, being away, in verifying false logs (in accordance with cache placement guidelines). The cache on 28 MAY 06 was the exact same cache that I saw in March 06. So, based on the fact that the cache appears the same on this end, complete with the same log book, I would presume the "cache" you logged at GW4 was a "sister" cache of the one over here (I would wonder if even it is a true "duplicate" or twin... that is moot, just being very precise since everyone attempts to roast my *% on semantics lately).

 

C) Have you actually read this discussion upon which you choose to opine? No one doubted the intentions of the cache owner. This was made clear in several posts.

 

D) To whom do you refer as a "pseudo commando?"

 

E) Are feelings relevant? There have been several notes on the cache page that posting finds on an Iraq cache by people 7,500 miles away, was bothersome. At first, I admit I was "offended." However, as time passes, I am not so much "offended" as I find it not within my interpretation of the guidelines, and not sincere in support ("if you get a reward for doing something for somebody, who are you doing it for" scenario). The bottom line on that is that, contrary to all guesses and feelings, it was not appreciated. If even by one cacher over here, one would think that someone with true altuistic motives would have no problem leaving a note of support as opposed to a "TFTC find," and the debate would be moot.

Edited by Jeep_Dog
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