Signing Container Rather Than Logbook

1.5k · May 28, 2006

Yes, I applaud and appreciate what this team did and firmly believe that they deserve the respect and support of this community. I certainly uphold the record number of caches they found in 24 hours - I don't see how anyone can legitimately argue with that.

You didn't open the containers to even know they if they were the actual caches, trash, or decoys. You didn't sign logs. You split your group up on numerous occasions. There's no legitimacy to be argued here. NONE.

Cache runs and cache teams have long held that splitting up was acceptable if done in moderation.

Ask TheLeprechauns, former record holder, if he agrees. I bet he won't. I certainly don't.

Even if you subtract these thirty caches found while apart, we still exceeeded the record.

No, you did not. You set your own record for caches defaced perhaps, or for illegitimate logging of caches, but you certainly didn't exceed the record for caches legitimately found and logged.

They signed the containers as I told them to. Had they opened the containers and signed the logs it would certainly have taken more time, but we so far surpassed the 263 record that it is my belief that had we takenn the time and done so they would still have broken the record.

Then you instructed them incorrectly. Regardless of what your belief is, it doesn't count. I believe I could find 500 caches in a day, if conditions were right. That doesn't make me the new record holder. That just means I have an inflated view of my abilities.

That being said, they are legitmate winners.

:laughing:

I personally will not log any of these caches as an attempt to accept responsibility for this unfortunate mistake.

If you didn't sign the logs, then really you have no right to log them to begin with. Neither do the other members of the DRR team. Nor can you accept responsibility for the irresponsibility of the others on the team. Adults make their own choices, right or wrong.

I was with the team and of the team and, except for igniting this firestorm, feel that we did a good thing.

No, you did a bad thing. You might have had a great time doing it, but that still doesn't make it right, or "good".

Anyone that wants to deny the legitimacy of my claim to the title is welcome to do so, but to deny it to them is grossly unfair.

Claiming to have broken a legitimate previous record is unfair to those who held it. The DRR team was made up of adults, each one capable of thinking for themselves. Your attempt at taking the blame is noble, but it doesn't cut it. A team is a team, they win or lose as a team.

The DRR Team record is hereby DENIED.

May 28, 2006

I'm sincerely sorry to read your comments, Alabama Rambler. Your team's reasoning has already been addressed throughout this thread. It's still poor logic to create your own rules that don't include the basic caching guideline of signing the log. To inform the owners you might sign containers is more like advance warning of graffiti than advance notice of finding and is truly disheartening. Of course, exceptions may exist with owners' permission, but that doesn't appear to be the case on most of these "finds."

This is no way to achieve a record cache run. As you can see in this thread and related ones, although cachers may differ concerning the significance of the matter, almost every cacher posting does appear to have a problem with it. I suspect the GW4 attendees will too if and when they discover the signing of the containers instead of available logs. Please retract your claim to the record. It's not worth the harm it's causing.

I am glad your team had fun, but it should begin and end there, not with an illegitimate claim. Listen to Lep and others who are providing "legitimate" points. This is an ethical issue, not a silly debate ove micro spew. Truly a sad day for caching... :laughing:

May 28, 2006

I appreciate TheAlabamaRambler's apology and explanation, and I can certainly appreciate the time and planning that went into this. I could even look past the cachers splitting up part, but if it's been said once, it's been said a thousand times...if you don't sign THE LOG, it's not a find.

While I can only begin to understand how much time/money/energy went into this run, I also think that the record should be retracted.

1.7k · May 28, 2006

Sorry, but I dont think much of that apology. "Im sorry you are offended but I dont think we did anything wrong" isnt an apology.

A true apology would consist of "Im sorry, we messed up and to show you how sorry we are, we will rescind our claim and delete our logs since we didnt really have a record run. But we had a lot of fun anyway."

2.4k · May 28, 2006

While I appreciate TheAlabamaRambler coming in and explaining some things, I gotta say, I lost a lot of respect for you. We've never met and haven't chatted in a while, but I thought you knew better.

Since when is signing the container OR splitting up and claiming finds on caches you didn't even SEE real geocaching.

There's no new record set here, and the whole team should come into these forums, renounce any claims of a record and apologize to the community at large, and especially the owners of the caches 'visited' for their actions.

The fact that several team members vocally objected to signing the container should have been enough for you to realize it wasn't the right thing to do. As others have stated, without opening the container, how can you know it was the cache and not a decoy or trash? How can you claim that even if you had stayed together, opened the containers and signed the logs you'd have beat the old record anyway? You have no real idea how much time would have been taken up over the course of the day by those actions. You have no way of knowing how many caches you would have actually found if you had followed the rules.

1.9k · May 28, 2006

I don't think they have to come here on an individual basis to renounce the claim to hold some record for a few reasons. For one it is nothing more than a personal achievement, not a record since Geocaching isn't a competition so how could they have done it better than me? Cheating yourself and then bragging about it only makes you look like a bigger fool than you pretended to be in the first place. The community already has basically told them that any "record" they are claiming is bunk in our eyes. That's pretty clear I would think. Them in here defending it is pointless and pretty laughable since they have become the punchline to a really bad joke. There is such a limited amount of "rules" for caching that is pretty sad when people have to make it even easier than "find it, sign log, rehide it, move on".

Personally I can't wait till they improve the satellite imagery so I can just see all the caches from home. I should be able to virtually log a couple thousand caches in a hundred countries on several continents in and afternoon. The I will win.

24.7k · May 29, 2006

....Personally I can't wait till they improve the satellite imagery so I can just see all the caches from home. I should be able to virtually log a couple thousand caches in a hundred countries on several continents in and afternoon. The I will win.

I was just going to opt for the it's ok if the team splits up if it's not for too long part. All I need is 30 seconds for my 500 person team and I'll set a new record. Until the 600 person team comes along.

1.5k · May 29, 2006

Personally I can't wait till they improve the satellite imagery so I can just see all the caches from home. I should be able to virtually log a couple thousand caches in a hundred countries on several continents in and afternoon. The I will win.

Why wait? Play the "game" any way you want...go ahead and log any caches you want. Who cares if you leave the house or actually search for anything. Just log a few hundred caches in 24 hours and brag about the record you've just set. How can anyone in the geocaching "community" disagree with you???

Edited May 29, 2006 by KoosKoos

May 29, 2006

Unles you personally plane to go out and get 250 caches in a day, why are people getting their panties in a bunch?

Relax, there are more important things in life. Yes, even more important than geocaching.

May 29, 2006

What is the proper way to sign a cache container?

4. The Joy of Caching

Sure, the painter's pallet might weigh you down a little bit, but there's no substitute for creativity, even in a race against the clock.

Now that I'm done laughing enough to type ... In the the immortal words of "Larry the Cable Guy": I don't care who ya are, that's funny right there.

3.9k · May 29, 2006

...Relax, there are more important things in life. Yes, even more important than geocaching.

Huh? Something more important than geocaching? What? Are you nuts? Have you gone TOTALLY over the edge?

I demand that sick evil posters like you be banned immediately from our wonderful forum!

Repent!

Edited May 29, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

4.2k · May 29, 2006

Unles you personally plane to go out and get 250 caches in a day, why are people getting their panties in a bunch?

Relax, there are more important things in life. Yes, even more important than geocaching.

Why is it so wrong for people to have opinions on this (or any subject for that matter)?

Nobody is going to lose sleep over this, but everybody has the right to voice thier opinion and outrage (if that's how strongly they feel).

This is a community. When folks do things against community standards its gets folks upset.

May 29, 2006

What is your general thoughts on teams or individuals signing the outside of the container rather than taking the time to open the container and signing the logbook. Yes, the contain could be opened and did have a logbook enclosed. I have seen a lot of these containers signed this week in DFW area (for GW4) where teams have been running.

That's what happens when something that was originally designed to be a fun game is turned into a competition. People start trying to find shortcuts. Signing the logbook documents the find. If I was organizing an event, I'd disqualify any that did not sign the book.

1.9k · May 29, 2006

Unles you personally plane to go out and get 250 caches in a day, why are people getting their panties in a bunch?

Relax, there are more important things in life. Yes, even more important than geocaching.

Personally this doesn't affect the rest of my life at all. It does affect a hobby/activity I enjoy by making it appear cheap and senseless. For that I wish to vent my feelings with others who can understand what I feel and am saying about the issue. I don't plan on going out to find 250 caches in a day, mainly since I don't view this as a competition, but yet I still don't approve of these guys doing things that show a lack of respect for not only the individual cache owners, but the community as a whole. Now talking about these things here made the most sense since most people here actually understand what's going on and why this is just plain wrong. I am sorry that you feel anyone who has a problem with their actions is "getting their panties in a bunch".

1.7k · May 29, 2006

I think the honorable thing to do would be renounce the claim to the record and let the prior record stand. It would be in the best interest of the geocaching community as a whole for now and into the future. Doing this will set precedence and start laying the groundwork for a firm set of rules for future cache runs.

WELL SAID,, NOW LETS SEE WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE THESE ARE, WE ALREADY KNOW THERE VANDALS AND CHEATS, NOW YOU EXPEXT THEM TO BE HONEST AD FAIR?

IF I SAW ONE OF THESE GUYS OUT I"D HIT THEM WITH MY BEAR MACE AND KICK THEM IN THE JONNIES FOR CAUSEING ALL THIS STRESS AND MAKING ME ADDICTED TO COMEING HERE TO READ ABOUT THIS CRAP

Jared, I'd really appreciate it if you would stop making threats, this does not reflect any better on the Geoaching community than the discussion of DDR's run and signing the containers. If anything its worse. PLEASE, take a deep breath and go Geocaching. Come back in a few days and this, like many other things will have been reasonably resolved and everyone will have moved on.

May 29, 2006

Haven't seen anyone in these threads from Alabama that has appeared shocked OR surprised. That should tell you something...

I'm from Alabama. I can't (and won't) speak for the group I cache with normally - BUT - I will shoot off my yapper for myself...

Officially I'm neither shocked, amazed, surprized, put-out, disillusioned, morally out-raged, or anything else.

Frankly, with the exception of the signing of the containers bit - they shoulda known better, but that's between the DRR Team and the cache owners - I don't particularly care. Yeah, regardess of how they did it, that many in 24 hrs is pretty impressive but I've never been about the numbers. Some people are. It's their game too and they can play it their way as long as I get to play it mine.

Just my two bits.

1.7k · May 29, 2006

To quote the wise words of El Diablo, that he posted in another thread:

"Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier."

1.7k · May 29, 2006

Yeah, regardess of how they did it, that many in 24 hrs is pretty impressive

What makes it impressive? They often split up. They didnt necessarily find the caches. They may have found decoys, or just plain old trash they thought may have been the cache. They cheated. How is any of this impressive?

I would be more impressed if they had found 100 caches the honorable way, where they all were together, found the caches, signed the log itself. THAT is impressive.

7.2k · May 29, 2006

It's a shame to have spent that amount of money, time, and effort only to make a monumentally bad decision and it all be for naught.

But, if we can we can take the captain's words to heart then it was no biggie to them to have not broken the previous record. There's always next year.

2.7k · May 29, 2006

To quote the wise words of El Diablo, that he posted in another thread:

"Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier."

It sounds like you're implying that I should have an opinion or voice it. As I cache owner I do have an opinion. I won't comment in this thread about the cache run record being broken because that would be off topic.

Wether I do or don't want cachers signing my cache container isn't as important as how these guys came to the conclusion that it was okay to sign the cache containers. From what I have read they made a post in a local forum. Then they assumed that they had permission to sign any cache container from owners that didn't respond in the forum. That is very backward thinking. If a cache owner didn't respond they should have assumed that it wasn't okay to sign the container. I would be upset if I found my cache containers signed and the signers told me that they thought it was okay because I didn't respond to a post that they made in a forum, that I never read.

May 29, 2006

May 29, 2006

To quote the wise words of El Diablo, that he posted in another thread:

"Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier."

I'm not concerned about their numbers and I don't believe they intentionally hurt others. However, I also don't believe that is the issue for most posting in this or related threads.

I am concerned when they...

...sign (or deface, even unintentionally) cache containers unless the owner indicates permission.

...revise the basic caching guideline of signing available logs.

...use the logic of saying they informed owners of their plans beforehand by posting it on a website. Informing someone does not equal receiving permission.

Some owners of affected caches have already posted their unhappiness. Many cachers work hard to create camo for their containers. The DRR team's actions could affect the caching community, especially if the above practices spread, not limited to just "record" runs.

May 29, 2006

Is this horse dead yet?

May 29, 2006

Is this horse dead yet?

Do you object to the flagellation of deceased equines?

Just because I came upon this rather late, I'll just add that if anyone signs my cache container, their find will be null and void. Luckily I'm not worried about that happening though.

5.3k · May 29, 2006

From what you wrote at the end are you saying "oops, My bad" "Let's let the record stand anyway"?

Is that a correct reading?

Now the only one that can answer that question is TAR so please everyone don't respond with "Well what I think he meant was...." Lets hear it from the person that wrote it.

Yes, I applaud and appreciate what this team did and firmly believe that they deserve the respect and support of this community. I certainly uphold the record number of caches they found in 24 hours - I don't see how anyone can legitimately argue with that.

Cache runs and cache teams have long held that splitting up was acceptable if done in moderation. We did one long bridge where there were 22 caches along a walking path that could not safely be done from the vehicle. We had three men walk that section to find them while the van moved on to others. There was a walking path through a park that had 8 caches, which two men walked while the van went after others.

Cache runs and cache teams have long held that splitting up was acceptable

This statement is nonsense, were did you get this idea, I have been out with groups of cachers, we all stay together and we all sign the log book. We have never entertained the thought of spliting up.

There was no record set, it is a bogus claim

What was set was a record for cheating and defacing caches.

1.9k · May 29, 2006

To quote the wise words of El Diablo, that he posted in another thread:

"Play this game/hobby/sport how you want to play it. Stop worrying about the other person's numbers. Legit or not. Trust me, you will be a lot happier."

This is not a blanket statement that can be made all the time covering everything about geocaching. You are taking his words out of context. That post is in a thread about a players numbers, and I agree with it there. Who cares about numbers in the sense that no one is going to rule the world because they have signed their name to more scraps of paper than the rest of us. That statement does not apply in this thread, and is wrong of you to take his wrote and bring it here where he did not say it. This thread is about what a small group of cachers who decided to do nothing short of deface others cachers for their own trivial and pathetic gain. They decided their goals were more important than the respect for the cachers who spent the time placing caches out there for all to enjoy. When they start defacing containers because it was faster to move to the next one, they affected that individual. When they did this to a great many caches, they affected the community as a whole and showed their lack of respect for everyone who has spent time placing a cache to give back to the community as a whole. Yes people should play their own way, but within the larger rules set forth by the community. No one has the right to rewrite the entire rule book for their personal gain, no matter has large or small their ego may be.

May 29, 2006

Now I understand why NatureFish, a.k.a. TheAlabamaRambler, Groundspeak reviewer for Alabama and Arkansas, refuses to approve caches that do not have containers!

3.5k · May 29, 2006

Now I understand why NatureFish, a.k.a. TheAlabamaRambler, Groundspeak reviewer for Alabama and Arkansas, refuses to approve caches that do not have containers!

Actually those aren't listed on this site at all. It has nothing to do with NatureFish/TheAlabamaRambler, it has to do with the guidelines for listing a cache.

Bret

3.9k · May 29, 2006

Now I understand why NatureFish, a.k.a. TheAlabamaRambler, Groundspeak reviewer for Alabama and Arkansas, refuses to approve caches that do not have containers!

Too funny! So, it turns out that one of the members of the infamous Team DRR was a reviewer? I have been getting phone calls and notes from geocaching veterans all weekend about two "reviewers who have gone over to the Dark Side" (see them on an upcoming epispode of Jerry Springer, entitled, "Reviewers Gone Bad)", but no one would tell me who they were talking about (and I was too polite to ask!) until now! How funny! Well, as I have said in these threads many times before, we are all human, and we all make mistakes. To me, the true measure of grace is how we choose to deal with our mistakes and those of others.

God bless them all!

Edited May 29, 2006 by Vinny & Sue Team

5.7k · May 29, 2006

I'm extremely dissappointed in the whole thing.

I myself would love to be the record holder (even though you say there isn't one).

It pisses me off to see a fake record, created by cheating.

Now, I believe a true honest record will be dismissed as second best!

That sucks!

If the record was attempted correctly and within the NORMAL, customary rules/guidelines, then everyone would have a fair chance at attaining it.

Now, this whole situation has ruined that.

No one who plays fairly, myself included, can even hope to be near the fake record.

...ticks...

5.7k · May 29, 2006

Now I understand why NatureFish, a.k.a. TheAlabamaRambler, Groundspeak reviewer for Alabama and Arkansas, refuses to approve caches that do not have containers!

Actually those aren't listed on this site at all. It has nothing to do with NatureFish/TheAlabamaRambler, it has to do with the guidelines for listing a cache.

Bret

Thank you. I was thinking the very same thing. BTW, did Al Gore REALLY invent the internet?

Edited May 29, 2006 by Team Cotati

May 29, 2006

Thank you. I was thinking the very same thing. BTW, did Al Gore REALLY invent the internet?

No, he didn't. The Internet was conceived by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration, (DARPA), and the first implementation of it was accomplished BBN Technologies under contract to...

I'm sorry, that was a rhetorical question, wasn't it?

Never mind.

1.7k · May 29, 2006

Now I understand why NatureFish, a.k.a. TheAlabamaRambler, Groundspeak reviewer for Alabama and Arkansas, refuses to approve caches that do not have containers!

Im speechless.

4.8k · May 30, 2006

Having been out of town, I am late getting into this thread. Since I did a record run a few years back with The Leprechauns, and I have read what he posted here, I will just state my agreement to what he has posted so far on the matter.

Now I will add this, which Lep may or may not agree with, so don't take my agreement with him as him agreeing with me for the following, since I didn't pass this by him first: Rules involving splitting up within .5 mile and signing the outside of containers was not part of what we considered legit when we did our run. We both found the caches together and one or the other signed both our names into the log. I believe the people before us also did the same. I also believe that the next team to break the record (Team Rebellion) did the same (but I can't verify on either). I don't know what happened in Jacksonville the next year since it had some of the same players as the current controversy. Anyway, the way I see it is that if there was some splitting up and signing of containers, then there is still a record, but a different kind of record: One where the team split up and signed within certain parameters. But it is not the same record that Lep and I did or the teams that went right before or after us did as far as I know.

Does that make it right? I don't know.... I don't like the idea and think it cheapens things since I know Lep and I were very concerned about how we went about our run. I also know that as a cache owner, I would be a bit put out by someone signing the outside of my contianer. I might not delete the log, but would likely post a note of concern. And if people choose to delete the logs, I can't blame them. At the same time, it is what it is. I guess it is a record under those extra circumstances.

What I would be interested in seeing is a new record under the circumstances that the first few record holders used. Or, I would be curious about a solo record. Seeing a person plan, drive and find in a 24 hour period with people along only to witness and document it would be interesting. On this current thing, if the info is correct, then I view it as a separate type of record from the previous ones, with the number still up in the air based on the number of online logs that stay intact.

4.8k · May 30, 2006

One other thing, which I guess cuts across all the threads on this stuff (I haven't read them all yet): I know there are people who just don't like the whole record run idea in general, or have no interest or respect for that. That is fine. But I do want to say that doing such a run is quite fun. I found it to be a fun way to enjoy some fun company while finding some caches that I likely would have otherwise not have bothered with. In the end it was fun to say I went on this crazy 24 run and found 240 caches. I won't likely do it again, unless someone wants me to play witness to a 24 hour solo run. But it was fun!

Not that it makes all the other controversial stuff OK. It doesn't. I would guess that despite the controvery, the people on this last one also had fun. But of course the lesson is to be careful, because fun can be diminished by controversy. Anyone else planning record runs should learn from this and aim for as little controversy as possilble!

May 30, 2006

Haahaha!

The length that people will go to in order to increment their find count continues to astound me.

The fact that this topic even came up is just one more sign that Geocaching is headed for oblivion.

May 30, 2006

Can somebody tell me how to start a forum that I can moderate? I want to start a new forum with only two threads and I want the ability to delete any OT posts.

Thread #1 I am the cache owner of a cache that was logged during the record run in Dallas and I am angry.

Thread #2 I am the cache owner of a cache that was logged during the record run in Dallas and I am not angry or I am proud that my cache was involved.

Any post by anyone other than a cache owner would be deleted.

Let me seperate the wheat from the chaff and the pot stirrers from the legitimate points of view. Let's hear from the cache owners, the ones that count. Anything else is butting into someone else's business.

Does it not matter that there is no such thing as a geocaching world record? There are no rules to the game. There is only a website that hosts geocachers postings, has some guidelines about what is allowed to be posted, and sells geocaching related merchandise.

If you have so much negative energy to expend, why not refocus and form an official geocaching organization with rules and all the other administrative functions? Have elected officials, bylaws, recruit state organizations, etc.

Edited May 30, 2006 by tech_guy and the missus

3.2k · May 30, 2006

The fact that this topic even came up is just one more sign that Geocaching is headed for oblivion.

Oh, I dunno. Even if it had been one or two of my containers that had been marked, I would consider that a VERY minor annoyance compared to the tons of entertainment this game has provided me.

I tend to agree with the opinions in this thread, but let's keep things in perspective.

(Great account name, BTW! )

May 30, 2006

If you have so much negative energy to expend, why not refocus and form an official geocaching organization with rules and all the other administrative functions? Have elected officials, bylaws, recruit state organizations, etc.

It's already been done.

1.7k · May 30, 2006

There are no rules to the game. There is only a website that hosts geocachers postings, has some guidelines about what is allowed to be posted, and sells geocaching related merchandise.

The caches this site lists follows guidelines established by this site. The caches logged that we are griping about fall outside of those guidelines. So yes, there are rules per this site, and you folks are logging them against this site's rules.

2.3k · May 30, 2006

There are no rules to the game.

"Lots of goodies for the finders. Look for a black plastic bucket

buried most of the way in the ground. Take some stuff, leave

some stuff! Record it all in the log book. Have Fun!"

Groundspeak Guidelines

Yes, there are some rules. And there should be some morals about the whole thing, too.

May 30, 2006

What I would be interested in seeing is a new record under the circumstances that the first few record holders used. Or, I would be curious about a solo record. Seeing a person plan, drive and find in a 24 hour period with people along only to witness and document it would be interesting. On this current thing, if the info is correct, then I view it as a separate type of record from the previous ones, with the number still up in the air based on the number of online logs that stay intact.

To carleenp and Lep: Your record is one that I, as a newer cacher totally respect. As I've said elsewhere in this thread, the best myself and a friend have done is 30 in a day, so your record is amazing to me even in the post-micro spew era (had to add it Drat19 ). The best part about your cache run was there weren't what *I* would call "rules"...they were common sense guidelines. To claim a find you had to be there, you had to sign the log...etc.

It's too bad comon sense is so hard to find nowadays.

But I agree with carleenp: I would love to see others do the run with the same "rules" that others in the past used, or at least discuss in the forums any new ones (aka are local drivers allowed/are observers needed). The solo run would also be impressive...especially since I know of local cachers that have done amazing jobs solo on trips around the country.

In reality, as I stated before, if you're going to attempt to "set a record" you REALLY have to be careful what you do...because ANYTHING that can be seen as "bad" will tend to make people think your "record" isn't valid. And, if people had used the rules that Lep and carleenp used...I know I for one wouldn't be on the side saying "not a record"

Celticwulf

2.6k · May 30, 2006

Let me seperate the wheat from the chaff and the pot stirrers from the legitimate points of view. Let's hear from the cache owners, the ones that count. Anything else is butting into someone else's business.

Nonsense. All points of view are legitimate in this one. Because this is not an activity with a board of directors and a physical rule book, what is or is not in bounds is decided by the community at large. It's all our business.

Or, to put it another way, do you think the next team going for the record will split up into individual seekers and sign the containers instead of the logs?

The answer is: yes, very likely, if we let this record stand. They'd probably have to if they want to top this number.

The answer is: no, almost certainly not, if the wider community refuses to recognize this as a record. Who wants to work so hard to buy a boatload of criticism?

People who care about a game will care very much how others play it. Especially when it comes to records and landmarks. And issues that affect everyone, like the accepted proper handling of cache containers. Discussion threads like this are the only place large numbers of us can talk to each other over a large area.

3.9k · May 30, 2006

Let me seperate the wheat from the chaff and the pot stirrers from the legitimate points of view. Let's hear from the cache owners, the ones that count. Anything else is butting into someone else's business.

Nonsense. All points of view are legitimate in this one. Because this is not an activity with a board of directors and a physical rule book, what is or is not in bounds is decided by the community at large. It's all our business.

Or, to put it another way, do you think the next team going for the record will split up into individual seekers and sign the containers instead of the logs?

The answer is: yes, very likely, if we let this record stand. They'd probably have to if they want to top this number.

The answer is: no, almost certainly not, if the wider community refuses to recognize this as a record. Who wants to work so hard to buy a boatload of criticism?

People who care about a game will care very much how others play it. Especially when it comes to records and landmarks. And issues that affect everyone, like the accepted proper handling of cache containers. Discussion threads like this are the only place large numbers of us can talk to each other over a large area.

Auntie! Always a pleasure to see a post from you! And, you hit it on the head! I might also add that the guidelines and offered by the geocaching.com site seem to have been largely forged from common sense and the rules of basic courtesy, and also happen to reflect the values of the majority of the geocaching community. And, one large meeting place where we, as members of the geo community, discuss such things -- including obvious transgressions of guidelines and commonsense such as those seen in Texas recently -- is in these forums. Essentially, what tech_guy is asking for in his posts is SUPPRESSION, or even censorship, as he is esentially trying to say that we, as contributing members of the geo community, should shut our mouths and cease maintaining and co-creating our shared community. In fact, if that sanction (as demanded by tech-guy) were enforced, it would be a major step toward turning our community into a highly DYSFUNCTIONAL community, as suppression and repression are the characteristic primary hallmarks of both dysfunctional families and larger dysfunctional communities. Bottom line: I find this request (for suppression) from tech_guy to be just as fascinating as some of the behaviors exhibited at GW4.

1.5k · May 30, 2006

Does it not matter that there is no such thing as a geocaching world record? There are no rules to the game. There is only a website that hosts geocachers postings, has some guidelines about what is allowed to be posted, and sells geocaching related merchandise.

By this reasoning, then, I should be able to log finds on your 26 caches, since there are no rules in how the game is played. Never mind that my name isn't on the log sheet, no rules are no rules, right?

And if I did log those 26 finds, no one else on this forum should have a problem with it, because it's none of their business? It's just between you and me - the cache owner, and the "finder". How about I do that to 800 caches, then come into the forums and claim I set a new daily record? Sure, you can delete my 26 finds, but chances are enough others won't that I'll still have a record run. And that's ok, because 1) there are no rules to this game, and 2) no one except me and the affected cache owners have any business discussing it.

Sorry friend, but there are rules, and this is the business of the community it affects. If you choose not to participate in the dicusssion, that's ok. However, the discussion will take place. That's why we're here.

3.9k · May 30, 2006

Does it not matter that there is no such thing as a geocaching world record? There are no rules to the game. There is only a website that hosts geocachers postings, has some guidelines about what is allowed to be posted, and sells geocaching related merchandise.

By this reasoning, then, I should be able to log finds on your 26 caches, since there are no rules in how the game is played. Never mind that my name isn't on the log sheet, no rules are no rules, right?

And if I did log those 26 finds, no one else on this forum should have a problem with it, because it's none of their business? It's just between you and me - the cache owner, and the "finder". How about I do that to 800 caches, then come into the forums and claim I set a new daily record? Sure, you can delete my 26 finds, but chances are enough others won't that I'll still have a record run. And that's ok, because 1) there are no rules to this game, and 2) no one except me and the affected cache owners have any business discussing it.

Sorry friend, but there are rules, and this is the business of the community it affects. If you choose not to participate in the dicusssion, that's ok. However, the discussion will take place. That's why we're here.

DocDiTTO, I feel that was wonderfully put! Thanks for saying it better than I could have!

Oh, and since you are located in PA, and we have read each other's posts on the forums here, I realized that I fully deserve to claim finds on every cache in PA, and so I would like to announce that our find score has now increased by 8,600 caches, making our find count one of the highest-ranked in the world! Wow! Hope everyone congratulates me! Please, in return, feel free to log finds on every cache in MD and DC! I ust love this new "no rules" type of geocaching! :wub:

May 30, 2006

Having been at GW4 this past weekend, I saw numerous containers with "DRR" written on the outside. Didn't know what it meant until I found this topic. If the previous record holder opened the container and signed the log on every find, it would put this record run in a different category IMO. Not taking the time to sign the log is not something I would think theses cachers would do under normal caching circumstances back in their home areas.... Wouldn't be a valid "caching record" to me. I'd want my name on the logs if I "found" all those caches. We weren't part of any record run, found only 130 caches or so while in TX, but all logs were stamped with our "mark" on the log page.

May 30, 2006

Following is my post on the TXGA forum:

After getting a heads-up from another local cacher, I checked 3 of my caches that were logged by DRR for the run. Yes, the containers were all signed on the outside. However, this did not in any way compromise the camo or the integrity of the caches.

This is not the way I would have done it, and I personally think a record attempt should have time budgeted for actually SIGNING the log, or at least afixing a sticker. Maybe there should be a rule written to specifically prohibit signing the container in these types of attempts, but I am proud some of my caches were found in this record attempt, and since there was no harm done to the caches, I'm inclined to let it slide. I'm all about having fun instead of obessing over numbers anyway.

BTW, I enjoyed meeting some of these PIRAT's Saturday at GW, and wish them well and safe return home. Hats off to all the organizers!

Now, having said that, and after reading some of the posts here, I want to modify my position.

While I am not going to delete the logs from this attempt, I think this "record" will always have a certain stench attached to it. Maybe it should have an asterisk by it and fall in the same category that Barry Bond's eventual home run record will have, i.e. "drug enhanced".

20.7k · May 30, 2006

I almost always cache alone and never have found more than about seventy in a day, so I will never set a 24-hour record. Even so, it saddens me a little to know that no one is likely to get credit for another 24-hour record because there will be so much doubt in the community because of the way 'DRR' went about this one.

Its too bad for those groups of friends who would like to go after the record in the future.

May 30, 2006

In addendum, I don't think it is fair for Vinny and Sue Team to slander the entire Texas caching community based on the actions of a few people whom are not from our great state.

Also, carleenp: are you married? :laughing:

Signing Container Rather Than Logbook

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