Jump to content

Signing Container Rather Than Logbook


BiT

Recommended Posts

On my Sprinklers Doom (GCPJ14) cache I had to delete the logs. One was from a team that did not sign the log and claimed a find, one was from an individual in town for business that again didn't sign the log, and the others were from members of the team that signed the container. However on my Keller's Donation (GCPK78) cache a team signed the logbook. See pics of the logbook.

 

:tired::tired::lol::lol:

I see trouble brewin' on the horizon....

Yep. So much for the possibility that the logging method had been pre-approved by the cache owners. I know from my own record run that there was one series of 20-something caches, each hidden in an identical container, where the owner pre-authorized us to log using a timesaving shortcut. We still signed the logsheets, though.

 

So I was hoping that there was some similar arrangement. Since I wasn't there, I will quit speculating and await an explanation from someone who was. I have no reason to doubt the member of Team CHB who initially reported this in the other thread, but I'm open to hearing an explanation.

Link to comment

interesting I was just looking at a found log for a cache in this "record" run....

 

Found this Cache as Part of the 24 Hour Recordrun. Thanks for these great Caches that made the Recordrun possible.

We found 312 Caches in these 24 Hours and had over 40 DNFs

The Team consisted of:

Ed, The AlabamaRambler (AKA NatureFish)

Max, Poppy of Nonnypoppy

Mike from Cache&Keri

Mike, Golf from GolfNutz

Roland, darth_maul_3

Tammo, Spuchtfink

Michael, M.Zielinski

Carsten, geoPirat

 

All caches were signed DRR (Dallas Record Run) for the team.

 

Greetings from germany

:lol:

 

I've said it once, and I'll say it again this record run did not impress me, even less so now that it comes out these guys were too lazy to open the container.

Link to comment

Perhaps it’s time to set some minimum requirements or standards for record cache runs. Even the Guiness people don’t accept just any old claim without some verification or relevance.

 

For a start:

1. Each cache claimed must be opened and the log signed.

2. Caches may not be defaced or altered in the attempt, and must be replaced as found.

3. Every team member that claims a find for the cache must be present when the cache is found.

 

Those seem like reasonable things to do and show respect for the cache owners' efforts to place quality caches.

Link to comment

And then there are the combination-lock caches where you need the combination (from a puzzle or previous multi-cache stage(s)) to sign the log. Signing the container is definitely not an equivalent action.

And don't forget decoy containers. And any container randomly discarded in the area. I just don't see how someone can be sure that it's the right cache without opening the container and checking the contents.

Link to comment

Perhaps it’s time to set some minimum requirements or standards for record cache runs. Even the Guiness people don’t accept just any old claim without some verification or relevance.

 

For a start:

1. Each cache claimed must be opened and the log signed.

2. Caches may not be defaced or altered in the attempt, and must be replaced as found.

3. Every team member that claims a find for the cache must be present when the cache is found.

 

Those seem like reasonable things to do and show respect for the cache owners' efforts to place quality caches.

There *was* an attempt to define "the rules." It was written by GeoPirat, holder of the previous world record (264) and by The Alabama Rambler. Both GeoPirat and TAR were part of the group that is now claiming 312 cache finds in 24 hours (at least one of which has already been deleted by the cache owner). From the geowoodstock4.com website forums:

 

1) All competitors will be given the same information before the event.

 

2) Teams may start any time, but must stop at exactly 24 hours or before.

 

3) Each team hoping to be recognized by Guinness must have an observer who can validate the team's performance (guinness rules will be posted shortly to detail and clarify their requirements).

 

4) Any team ticketed by the police for speeding or reckless driving will be eliminated.

 

GeoPirat wrote:

Hi from Germany, my fellow (crazy) caching-friends who are going for this insane record . . . here is - as posted by Ed - my outline for the 'rules':

 

1 ) A team (no matter how many people, no matter if local though it's going to be hard for locals to claim a record if they have found some caches on the route before - or virgin to the area; the bigger the team the slower they will be . . .)

 

2 ) has to move in ONE vehicle, although the whole team may change cars as often as they want (and vehicle could be anything that moves on the ground such as bike, Jeep, Van, Bus . . . - no helicopters, please )

 

3 ) has to stay together all the time -> after the start nobody can join the team but team members are free to quit during the run; no (!) splitting up of the team (caching in several groups) further than .5 miles; not every team member has to leave the vehicle for every cache as a cachecontainer can be found physically by only one person anyway

 

4 ) may use all equipment (GPSRs, Laptops, GPS repeaters, cell phones, PMRs, Flashlights, Tools, Pens and everything else you can think of) and has to find as many caches with a physical proof of this (signed logbook / canister with Team Name etc.)

 

5 ) so it's no virtuals, no webcams etc. if they don't have a logbook

 

6 ) Events YES with a logbook to sign (you get the idea) and so on

 

7 ) in a 24 hour period (that does not say in one calendar day)

 

8 ) External support en route with food / drinks / medicine / repairs / peplacement of or additional equipment / batteries etc. is allowed,

 

9 ) External physical support from non-team-members to find / sign a cache is forbidden,

 

10) the route of the caches may be chosen by each team and does NOT have to be the same for every team,

 

11) the 24 hour period may start whenever the team wants (=24 hours do not have to be one calendar day, and every team may decide on what time of the day they prefer to start their run)

 

12) Only Groundspeak GC.COM caches count,

 

13) the "normal" accepted guidelines to find / log a cache apply (human sense), e.g. a cache you have already found (logged at GC.COM) can't be found again if the cache has not been moved, you can't find a cache placed by you if it has not been moved by someone else etc.

 

14) Use common sense.

 

15) I think of every fellow geocacher as an honest person and I do not want to have too many rules that can't be enforced.

 

16) Travel with caution, do not get hurt

 

17) Have as much fun as possible

 

Personally, I agree with all of these rules, except as follows:

 

Rule 3 says it's OK to split up the group by distances of up to .5 miles. I would rather see a rule saying that the entire group stays together to hunt for the same cache, one cache at a time.

 

Rule 4 speaks of a "signed logbook / canister with Team Name." I would have thought that, at most, this would allow for including caches where the container WAS the logbook (I've seen a few of these), but if a cache has a logbook, it ought to be signed.

 

Rule 5 prohibits virtuals and webcams -- only caches with logbooks. I don't see why not. I found 20 virtuals and one webcam during my record run. I submitted the correct virtual verification information to the owner of every cache, and uploaded a photo for the webcam cache. Plenty of proof.

 

It would seem to me that Rules 3 and 4 are contrary to Rule 13, and also Rule 4's "canister" language is contrary to the language in Rule 5 that places emphasis on the logbook.

 

Since I am not attending GeoWoodstock, I had not looked at this website prior to reading the current forum threads. In hindsight, it makes for interesting reading.

Edited by The Leprechauns
Link to comment

I'll agree with those who have said if it were my cache I'd be tempted to delete the find.

 

It's pretty clear to me; find = signed the book.

 

I've read many thread about "we saw the cache but couldn't get to it but are claiming a find anyway".

 

IMO it's just stretching further and further/

What's next? Driving up to a lamppost (for example) and just claiming a find but not even getting out and lifting it because you've done alot of these caches already??

 

Yes, it's an accomplishment to do X amount of caches in 24 hours. But changing the rules/means in which they were found diminishes that in my book. Sounds like a lot of others agree.

 

Yes, you can say "let them play thier way" but at what point does the community say "enough". Is the example above that far off?

 

 

I'm going for a nice long hike this weekend and hope to spend some quality time with some tupperware! :laughing:

Link to comment

Teams are in the area attempting to break the record for the number of caches found in a 24 hour period. They are signing DRR in Sharpie on the outside of containers. No date, just DRR.

Okay, I have to ask. . . Does anyone know what "DRR" means? Is it a team name? Does it have occult significance, perhaps a code needed to attain the 37th degree initiation in the Ancient and Sacred Order of Upright Freemasons, Scottish Rite, Fifth Convocation, Fourth Synod, Third Conference, 22nd Revision?

 

 

LOL @ your funny take on the longish names! As a present and past presiding officer of one of the Masonic bodies, I wish it WAS that exotic! :laughing: OK, back on topic - I'd delete their logs too. Play the game, people! I would also wonder, if they're in that much of a hurry, what kind of environmental damage are they doing?

Edited by Kacky
Link to comment

Pretty pathetic if you ask me. What's next, get a bus and bring 50 cachers and each have stamps to quickly stamp the exterior of the log? How about just have cache owners or previous finders waiting at each cache site with the container out, so you don't even have to get out of the vehicle? I'd be ashamed to claim a find like that, let alone claim the "World record" for caches found in 24 hours, if that's how I did it.

Link to comment

Count me with those who would be ticked by having my container signed (without my permission) and not the logbook.

 

Regarding the "rules" posted above, I would question the third:

 

3 ) has to stay together all the time -> after the start nobody can join the team but team members are free to quit during the run; no (!) splitting up of the team (caching in several groups) further than .5 miles;.......

 

A half mile is a ways apart. I've yet to find a cache while I was 1/2 mile away from it. Shouldn't everyone stay together and find together? If you're seperating the team at all while caching, then how does everyone claim to "find" the same caches? Do they truely all have the same total number of finds and therefore 'claim to fame'? (Or am I misunderstanding something, not having done this sort of thing before...)

 

.....not every team member has to leave the vehicle for every cache as a cachecontainer can be found physically by only one person anyway

And why wouldn't you get out of the car to claim the find? Ok, I know some caches are so close you can practically grab them from the car. If that is the application of this phrase I can understand not everybody getting out.

The wording leaves wiggle room.

For example:

If I go caching with my mom/husband/friend/whatever, I'm not going to log a find on a cache where I sit in the car while they get out, hunt for and find the container, sign the log (NOT the container) for both/all of us, then rehide it, and walk back to the car. Cause I didn't find anything but the parking lot! I guess sitting and watching somebody find something sorta constitutes me finding something.... yeah! :laughing:

 

Lastly, I do have respect for the planning and hard work this sort of thing would take to do.

I just think everyone should stay together, all look for the caches together, and all be there while the logbook is signed with at least the team name/initials.

I think that is what finding a cache is about.

Link to comment

I spent time & money camo-ing my hides. Graffitti them and your log is gone. Additionally, I'll pull the cache and paint over the graffiti. Thanks, but no thanks.

I did an Earthcache once with n00b. There's no log at an Earthcache, and I felt like I had to sign something, so I tried to write my name on n00b. He was grouchy about that, too.

 

In any case, there really wasn't much room to sign. What with all those tattoos.

Link to comment

My .01 cents, adjusted for inflation:

 

I spent time & money camo-ing my hides. Graffitti them and your log is gone. Additionally, I'll pull the cache and paint over the graffiti. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

You either don't have very many caches or you spend one heck of a lot of time chasing down graffitti slugs. :laughing::laughing::blink:

Link to comment

Perhaps it’s time to set some minimum requirements or standards for record cache runs. Even the Guiness people don’t accept just any old claim without some verification or relevance.

 

For a start:

1. Each cache claimed must be opened and the log signed.

2. Caches may not be defaced or altered in the attempt, and must be replaced as found.

3. Every team member that claims a find for the cache must be present when the cache is found.

 

Those seem like reasonable things to do and show respect for the cache owners' efforts to place quality caches.

Aren't these the bare minimums for any cache find, not just a records run? Is this really what geocaching is coming to?

Link to comment

I went on a caching weekend trip with 3 others. Since we decided we would be caching togetehr and remain together, to save space on the owners logbooks, we created stickers with each of names and a catch phrase of our weekend trip. It saved on space, but represented each of us. Best way we could think of to do it.

Link to comment

This brings up an interesting question about how to sign the log. Ive seen these 2 things done by others on a record cache quest. 1) Place a pre-signed post it note in the log or 2) Stamp the log with a team stamp. Would they qualify as signing the log book?

 

Signing the cache container is a big no-no in my opinion. I would delete such log entries if any of those were mine.

Link to comment

I spent time & money camo-ing my hides. Graffitti them and your log is gone. Additionally, I'll pull the cache and paint over the graffiti. Thanks, but no thanks.

I did an Earthcache once with n00b. There's no log at an Earthcache, and I felt like I had to sign something, so I tried to write my name on n00b. He was grouchy about that, too.

 

In any case, there really wasn't much room to sign. What with all those tattoos.

:laughing: No tatoos here, though I wish you wouldn't have tried CARVING your name on me with with that rusty nail. The infection was horrendous. You'd be grouchy, too, dagnabbit.

Edited by New England n00b
Link to comment

My .01 cents, adjusted for inflation:

 

I spent time & money camo-ing my hides. Graffitti them and your log is gone. Additionally, I'll pull the cache and paint over the graffiti. Thanks, but no thanks.

 

You either don't have very many caches or you spend one heck of a lot of time chasing down graffitti slugs. :laughing::laughing::blink:

Well, two right now, and one is disabled due to flooding. But, if someone wrote on my cans (I'm looking at YOU, ctd!) I'd be grouchy enough to go fix 'em. So far as I know, noone has yet done this - and in my area, trying to make a caching record would be nigh unto impossible - not that many park-n-grabs of that sort here.

Edited by New England n00b
Link to comment

This brings up an interesting question about how to sign the log. Ive seen these 2 things done by others on a record cache quest. 1) Place a pre-signed post it note in the log or 2) Stamp the log with a team stamp. Would they qualify as signing the log book?

 

Signing the cache container is a big no-no in my opinion. I would delete such log entries if any of those were mine.

 

There are cachers who, in their normal caching, use both of those methods, I don't see where it should really be a problem. Granted, most use real stickers, not post-it notes, but others just have a business card with their caching name they put in the logbook.

 

Cachers don't normally sign the outside of the container when caching, however.

Link to comment

Next we'll have someone intentionally setting up a record run.

 

Why not. Drive a stake into the ground every .1 miles and call it a cache. Drive up, slap a sticker on it through the car window and off to the next one.

 

On second thought, why even bother to drive a stake, think of all the rural mail boxes out there. Just snap a waypoint and have it posted to gc, drive up and throw a 3x5 card in the box.

Link to comment
What is your general thoughts on teams or individuals signing the outside of the container rather than taking the time to open the container and signing the logbook. Yes, the contain could be opened and did have a logbook enclosed.

 

I'd say that pretty much it's not a find.

 

If the person in question didn't use the method readily available to leave their verification information then it's not a find. Most notably if the cache is not even opened and the logbook signed, when such is readily available, then it's not a find, and I'd ask for an explanation and most likely the log would be deleted.

 

Obviously, this question refers to the cache runs for records. I'd say that in order to qualify for a record then the run should be made following as closely to standard protocol as possible.

 

If the recent claim of 312 caches found in 24 hours used signing the outside of the cache container when that is not the method intended, then I don't think it's a record at all. The previous record still stands.

Link to comment

Normally I don't care what people call a find. Its their count and they are the ones that have to live with it.

 

The topic is I assume about the record run made at GW4. If this record is to stand for the geocaching community as a true record then the rules should be acceptable rules for the community. I read in a previous post that one of the rules was that the participants had to sign the log/canister. To me there is too much that can be read into this rule. Therefore the team did nothing wrong according to the rules of the record run. But, I do not accept this as a find that should stand for the record attempt in the geocaching community.

 

I do not wish to take away from the hard work and planning that went into the run nor do I wish to detract from the fun that I am sure that they had. But for something represent the community as a whole then it must be able to withstand the scrutiny of the community.

Link to comment

Sign the log, get a smiley. Fairly simple rules. I've deleted two finds "Didn't like the people nearby, so I put the cache back without signing the log." Though some may frown on it, I make the exception for "Found the cache. There was no log book, so I signed a piece of paper and put it in the cache."

As to not signing the log book, when a log book is present, DNF! Enough people should get together to delete the finds, as a protest to defacing caches. "Too pressed for time to open the cache and sign the log" is a DNF in my book. So, everyone, delete those erroneous finds! Hee hee hee.

Link to comment

Perhaps it’s time to set some minimum requirements or standards for record cache runs. Even the Guiness people don’t accept just any old claim without some verification or relevance.

 

For a start:

1. Each cache claimed must be opened and the log signed.

2. Caches may not be defaced or altered in the attempt, and must be replaced as found.

3. Every team member that claims a find for the cache must be present when the cache is found.

 

Those seem like reasonable things to do and show respect for the cache owners' efforts to place quality caches.

There *was* an attempt to define "the rules." It was written by GeoPirat, holder of the previous world record (264) and by The Alabama Rambler. Both GeoPirat and TAR were part of the group that is now claiming 312 cache finds in 24 hours (at least one of which has already been deleted by the cache owner). From the geowoodstock4.com website forums:

 

1) All competitors will be given the same information before the event.

 

2) Teams may start any time, but must stop at exactly 24 hours or before.

 

3) Each team hoping to be recognized by Guinness must have an observer who can validate the team's performance (guinness rules will be posted shortly to detail and clarify their requirements).

 

4) Any team ticketed by the police for speeding or reckless driving will be eliminated.

 

GeoPirat wrote:

Hi from Germany, my fellow (crazy) caching-friends who are going for this insane record . . . here is - as posted by Ed - my outline for the 'rules':

 

1 ) A team (no matter how many people, no matter if local though it's going to be hard for locals to claim a record if they have found some caches on the route before - or virgin to the area; the bigger the team the slower they will be . . .)

 

2 ) has to move in ONE vehicle, although the whole team may change cars as often as they want (and vehicle could be anything that moves on the ground such as bike, Jeep, Van, Bus . . . - no helicopters, please )

 

3 ) has to stay together all the time -> after the start nobody can join the team but team members are free to quit during the run; no (!) splitting up of the team (caching in several groups) further than .5 miles; not every team member has to leave the vehicle for every cache as a cachecontainer can be found physically by only one person anyway

 

4 ) may use all equipment (GPSRs, Laptops, GPS repeaters, cell phones, PMRs, Flashlights, Tools, Pens and everything else you can think of) and has to find as many caches with a physical proof of this (signed logbook / canister with Team Name etc.)

 

5 ) so it's no virtuals, no webcams etc. if they don't have a logbook

 

6 ) Events YES with a logbook to sign (you get the idea) and so on

 

7 ) in a 24 hour period (that does not say in one calendar day)

 

8 ) External support en route with food / drinks / medicine / repairs / peplacement of or additional equipment / batteries etc. is allowed,

 

9 ) External physical support from non-team-members to find / sign a cache is forbidden,

 

10) the route of the caches may be chosen by each team and does NOT have to be the same for every team,

 

11) the 24 hour period may start whenever the team wants (=24 hours do not have to be one calendar day, and every team may decide on what time of the day they prefer to start their run)

 

12) Only Groundspeak GC.COM caches count,

 

13) the "normal" accepted guidelines to find / log a cache apply (human sense), e.g. a cache you have already found (logged at GC.COM) can't be found again if the cache has not been moved, you can't find a cache placed by you if it has not been moved by someone else etc.

 

14) Use common sense.

 

15) I think of every fellow geocacher as an honest person and I do not want to have too many rules that can't be enforced.

 

16) Travel with caution, do not get hurt

 

17) Have as much fun as possible

 

Personally, I agree with all of these rules, except as follows:

 

Rule 3 says it's OK to split up the group by distances of up to .5 miles. I would rather see a rule saying that the entire group stays together to hunt for the same cache, one cache at a time.

 

Rule 4 speaks of a "signed logbook / canister with Team Name." I would have thought that, at most, this would allow for including caches where the container WAS the logbook (I've seen a few of these), but if a cache has a logbook, it ought to be signed.

 

Rule 5 prohibits virtuals and webcams -- only caches with logbooks. I don't see why not. I found 20 virtuals and one webcam during my record run. I submitted the correct virtual verification information to the owner of every cache, and uploaded a photo for the webcam cache. Plenty of proof.

 

It would seem to me that Rules 3 and 4 are contrary to Rule 13, and also Rule 4's "canister" language is contrary to the language in Rule 5 that places emphasis on the logbook.

 

Since I am not attending GeoWoodstock, I had not looked at this website prior to reading the current forum threads. In hindsight, it makes for interesting reading.

 

Good points Lep. I'd also add if this is supposed to be an 'official' record that is to be generally accepted to represent the goecaching community at large, it is a bit odd to have the people attempting it to be the only ones making the rules up. I'd do as most others have said, unless there are extenuating circumstances- if the log isn't signed- the find doesn't count.

Link to comment

On second thought, why even bother to drive a stake, think of all the rural mail boxes out there. Just snap a waypoint and have it posted to gc, drive up and throw a 3x5 card in the box.

 

The USPS already holds the record. Every mailbox has a unique address though it just uses a different standard for coordinates. :laughing:

Link to comment

The fortunate thing for the tainted record holders, is alot of people don't come to the forums, so most of their finds will stand.

 

Personally I wouldn't want my name associated with something that so many rightly view as lazy and inconsiderate.

 

well, wait until the owners of those caches go out to check on them and find DRR in big, black letters on the container and no entry in the logbook.

 

One member of the "record" run's logs: (wait why am I saying one of their logs? This was their log for EVERY one they found.

 

Found this Cache as Part of the 24 Hour Recordrun. Thanks for these great Caches that made the Recordrun possible.

We found 312 Caches in these 24 Hours and had over 40 DNFs

The Team consisted of:

Ed, The AlabamaRambler (AKA NatureFish)

Max, Poppy of Nonnypoppy

Mike from Cache&Keri

Mike, Golf from GolfNutz

Roland, darth_maul_3

Tammo, Spuchtfink

Michael, M.Zielinski

Carsten, geoPirat

 

All caches were signed DRR (Dallas Record Run) for the team.

 

Greetings from germany

 

it'll be obvious to the owners who did it thanks to their lame cookie cutter logs, hopefully some more owners will hit some delete buttons.

 

by the way does anyone have any pics of the containers they defaced? Just curious.

Link to comment

The fortunate thing for the tainted record holders, is alot of people don't come to the forums, so most of their finds will stand.

 

Personally I wouldn't want my name associated with something that so many rightly view as lazy and inconsiderate.

 

There are enough people who have nothing to do so they should contact all the cache owners of the "finds" and have them check their logs. no sig, no find

Link to comment

Perhaps it’s time to set some minimum requirements or standards for record cache runs. Even the Guiness people don’t accept just any old claim without some verification or relevance.

 

For a start:

1. Each cache claimed must be opened and the log signed.

2. Caches may not be defaced or altered in the attempt, and must be replaced as found.

3. Every team member that claims a find for the cache must be present when the cache is found.

 

Those seem like reasonable things to do and show respect for the cache owners' efforts to place quality caches.

Aren't these the bare minimums for any cache find, not just a records run? Is this really what geocaching is coming to?

 

My point was that any quest for the record SHOULD at least meet the bare minimums for any cache finds. There doesn't need to be an extensive set of rules; just respect for the cache owners and adherence to common practice. Otherwise, it's only a record for something "like" caching.

Edited by Road Rabbit
Link to comment

First, congratulations on the record run. It is an accomplishment now matter how you did it.

 

When I cache as part of Team CHB, we sign the log as Team CHB, not individuals so I have no problem with that practice.

However, we do sign the LOG. While caching in the DFW area the last couple of days, I've haven't seen that DRR signed any logs, they signed the outside of the cache containers. I assume this was to save a few seconds on each cache.

While I don't really agree with this, I have to pass on thanks because this has made at least a few caches easier to find. The black DDR makes some of the camos jobs substantially less effective. :ph34r:

 

found this on another thread.

Link to comment

"14) Use common sense. "

 

Most cache owners take a lot of time thinking out their caches from where it's placed, history, scenery, view, swag, camo & etc.

If these folks can't appreciate the time & thought that the owner put into it enough to take a minute to sign the book & check out the cache, view, history or whatever, then their view of the cache owners efforts is extremely shallow.

Now *MY caches are in eastern Maine & I just put the second logbook in one of them.. Maybe I'll take an evening & start comparing logs to logs.

Thus far the site is spottless ((thanks)) and there's very minor enviro impact ((thanks again)).

 

The first time I find the containers defaced for "logging" :ph34r: kiss yer :huh: bye-bye & expect yer name to be publicly mentioned with "8 by 10 color glossy photographs, with circles & arrows explaining what each one is"!!

 

I hope the folks of DFW area take this as an insult to their efforts to show others a good time & make a mark on their record. I haven't even bothered to look & see how many of those claims were "POCKET CACHES"

 

Back to "14) Use common sense. " This is a FAMILY SPORT. Teaching younguns how to form gangs for gaining advantage is (IMHO) not conducive to this basic guideline.

 

These people are nothing but a bunch of "NUMBER HO'S".

 

Enjoy your glory...and respect...while it lasts...

 

JW

Edited by RubiconJW
Link to comment

 

There are enough people who have nothing to do so they should contact all the cache owners of the "finds" and have them check their logs. no sig, no find

 

Say, perhaps, by creating a published bookmark list containing all the caches they found, in order to alert the cache owners of the problem? :ph34r:

 

I sent an email to geopirat, to ask whether or not what we're reading here is true. If it is, then I think the cache owners should be notified. *I* would want to know if some record seekers vandalized my caache.

Link to comment

Hello from Dallas!

 

My name is geoPirat (from Germany) and I have been a member of this years record run team in Dallas / FW.

 

I have read this thread and would like to comment on a few points . . .

 

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums, see here http://www.txga.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

 

In this thread, an older version of the rules has been posted some times, but we have posted the final layout in the Forums of the local Geocachers organization of the Dallas / FW area so the owners could read it (TXGA).

 

Many of the owners of caches planned for the recrun have been posted before the run, informing them of the run, the date, sometimes asking for maintainance or advice of how to drive / park best to a cache location. The list of caches of the run was available BEFORE THE RUN via a public link in the GW4 Forums http://www.geowoodstock4.com/ .

 

We had posted the rules asking for comments / help / criticism, given a time-line of a week (I remember) for this. We had NO feedback at all BEFORE the run.

 

On the preparation of the run, we made the cache list available to everyone and shared all information BEFORE the run so others could go for the run on their own, if not in a 24 hour record manner than in parts to have fun and find some caches - a thing new to record runs to my knowledge. Things have been posted in the Forums of GW4-site and TXGA, the recrun is even mentioned on the GC.COM GW4-cache page. What other ways of gathering interest and feedback could we have used?

 

The upset about signing cache containers after the run is over may be understandbale, but I would have wished for MORE input and feedback to our posts BEFORE the run so rules / guidelines could have been adjusted to the wishes of THE LOCAL CACHE OWNERS and / or the whole caching community.

 

The lack of interest in this run BEFORE we went for it - even the local cachers did not post in the threads in their local forum - was surprising for me, as I was used to sharing fun and caching with the locals before, around and after Geowoodstock events.

 

BTW, how many local cache owners (that have caches being hitten on the recrun) are posting here?

 

Finally the answer to the question - have cache containers been signed on the outside?

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

 

Leaving a physical proof of 'we have been there' was very important to us to make our run revisable.

 

If feeling of record-run CACHE OWNERS were hurt - I do deeply beg your understanding and ask you to read the posts we made and to check the available information before the run started.

 

It was not and will never be my intent or the intent of my team to make cache owners feel bad because of things we have done to their cache.

 

But as the owner of around 80 caches (that have more than 2000 logs on them) I want to state that I have no problems at all if my cache containers are signed as long as stealth is not harmed.

 

Numbers of record runs are very difficult to compare because of Team size, local support, cache density in different areas, cache maintainance quality by the owners and so on. This record is menat to be a fun thing (maybe a bit crazy).

 

We took the record from ourselves (I was member of last years record holder Team of 263 caches in Jacksonville), there is no prize to win.

 

In Dallas/FW we could find 312 caches, left physical proof of being there when the cache was in the hand of a team member.

 

Looking forward to meet some of you at GW4, I am open for your questions and criticism.

Link to comment

We found several more today with DRR on the outside. At least one of these compromised the camo paint job.

 

Sounds like you're blaming the caching community for not reading through your lengthy rules - which should be about the cache run, not about bending the rules that most people assume will always be followed, like signing the log book. Everyone should know by now that the majority of cachers do not frequent these forums or the GW4 website. Also, many locals don't participate frequently in their local sites.

IMO, signing the container is outside the normally accepted rules and should only be done with express permission in advance. Did you contact each cache owner and get that permission?

Link to comment

But as the owner of around 80 caches (that have more than 2000 logs on them) I want to state that I have no problems at all if my cache containers are signed as long as stealth is not harmed.

 

2000 logs eh? How would that work, if everyone took your stance and signed the outsides? It wouldn't.

 

IMO, your record is bunk.

 

Looking forward to meet some of you at GW4, I am open for your questions and criticism.

 

I doubt many are looking forward to meeting you, since you have destroyed your reputation.

Link to comment

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums,

 

Final rules should never change the basics of geocaching, which is to sign the logbook. Isnt that what the purists always talk about, and is the reason why virtual caches were frowned on? A logbook had to be signed.

 

The upset about signing cache containers after the run is over may be understandbale, but I would have wished for MORE input and feedback to our posts BEFORE the run so rules / guidelines could have been adjusted to the wishes of THE LOCAL CACHE OWNERS and / or the whole caching community.

 

Some things are basic. Signing a logbook is in geocaching FAQ's as stated here.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Finally the answer to the question - have cache containers been signed on the outside?

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

 

Very uncool.

 

Leaving a physical proof of 'we have been there' was very important to us to make our run revisable.

 

And signing the logbook doesnt fulfill that?

 

I have been a member of this years record run team in Dallas / FW.......(snip).....In Dallas/FW we could find 312 caches, left physical proof of being there when the cache was in the hand of a team member.

 

I dont think this is much of an accomplishment. Kind of like taking a bus part of the way when you claim to be running a marathon race.

Link to comment

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums,

 

Final rules should never change the basics of geocaching, which is to sign the logbook. Isnt that what the purists always talk about, and is the reason why virtual caches were frowned on? A logbook had to be signed.

 

The upset about signing cache containers after the run is over may be understandbale, but I would have wished for MORE input and feedback to our posts BEFORE the run so rules / guidelines could have been adjusted to the wishes of THE LOCAL CACHE OWNERS and / or the whole caching community.

 

Some things are basic. Signing a logbook is in geocaching FAQ's as stated here.

 

What are the rules in Geocaching?

 

Geocaching is a relatively new phenomenon. Therefore, the rules are very simple:

 

1. Take something from the cache

 

2. Leave something in the cache

 

3. Write about it in the logbook

 

Where you place a cache is up to you.

 

Finally the answer to the question - have cache containers been signed on the outside?

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

 

Very uncool.

 

Leaving a physical proof of 'we have been there' was very important to us to make our run revisable.

 

And signing the logbook doesnt fulfill that?

 

I have been a member of this years record run team in Dallas / FW.......(snip).....In Dallas/FW we could find 312 caches, left physical proof of being there when the cache was in the hand of a team member.

 

I dont think this is much of an accomplishment. Kind of like taking a bus part of the way when you claim to be running a marathon race.

 

ditto everything he said, you guys owe a lot of cache owners an apology, I don't care if "there was no harm to stealth factor of the cache" or not, what you guys did is just uncool and you should be ashamed. :ph34r:

Link to comment

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums, see here http://www.txga.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

This forum requires registration in order to view it. The GW4 forums are open forums, and the Groundspeak forums are open to anyone with an account at GC.com. If a "world record" is being claimed, it would be helpful if the "rules" made up by the record claimants were available for the world to see. Had they been posted in a forum that I followed, I would have had input. I may, however, have missed the subtle wording about signing the "canister." Hopefully the final version of the rules disclosed in bold capital letters: WE WILL SIGN THE OUTSIDE OF THE CACHE CONTAINER under the circumstances described above.

 

Could someone please post those rules here?

Link to comment

From the rules on the Texas Geocaching Forum:

First posted in the (locked) forum for the record run on 1st of Feb., we have worked the rules over - here they are:

 

1. ) A team (no matter how many people, no matter if local though it's going to be hard for locals to claim a record if they have found caches on the route before - or virgin to the area; the bigger the team the slower they will be . . .)

 

2. ) has to cache along their route, trying to find as many caches as possible in the given 24 hours time frame. The team may use only ONE vehicle at the same time as their means of transportation, although the whole team may change vehicles as often as they want. Team members can walk / drive / bike to caches.

 

3. ) During the run, no new members can join the team. Team members may quit the record run (e.g. feeling sick, after injuries etc.), they may join later. For a count, the cache does not have to be found / signed by 'every' Team member. One member of the team finds a cache and writes the team sig in the logbook or on the container if the logbook can't be retrieved - you have a count. The Team may even split up at some time of the run as long as they use only ONE vehicle for the whole team (e.g. in a park etc.).

 

4. ) All equipment is allowed (GPSRs, Laptops, GPS repeaters, all phones, PMRs, Flashlights, Tools, Pens and everything else you can think of).

 

5.) Only caches listed on Groundspeak's GC.COM with a physical proof of finding them count (signed logbook / canister with Team Name etc.). So it's no virtuals, no webcams etc. if they don't have a logbook. Events YES with a logbook to sign (you get the idea) and so on.

 

6. ) Cache run is in a 24 hour period (that does not say in one calendar day). The Team may continue caching after the 24 hours are over, but caches found after the time limit do not count for the record.

 

7. ) External support en route with food / drinks / medicine / repairs / peplacement of or additional equipment / batteries etc. is allowed. External physical (!) support from non-team-members to find / sign a cache is forbidden.

 

8. ) The route of the caches may (and should wisely) be chosen by each team and does NOT have to be the same for every team. The "normal" accepted guidelines to find / log a cache apply (human sense), e.g. a cache you have already found (logged at GC.COM) can't be found again if the cache has not been moved, you can't find a cache placed by you if it has not been moved by someone else etc. But if another Team member finds the cache, it is a count for the Team.

 

Use common sense. Travel with caution, do not get hurt. Have as much fun as possible. I shortend the rules to make things simpler. If you have any comments or ideas for the rules, please post them here as a reply til friday, the 12th of may, because the coming weekend is the last chance to reflect rule changes in the planning of the route.

 

Maybe it's just me, but as a cache owner I would have never inferred from those rules that you were going to sign the cache container and not the log.

 

In fact, rule number 5 implies that the logbook will be signed...at least it does to me.

 

Bret

Link to comment

 

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums, see here http://www.txga.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

 

Many of the owners of caches planned for the recrun have been posted before the run, informing them of the run, the date, sometimes asking for maintainance or advice of how to drive / park best to a cache location. The list of caches of the run was available BEFORE THE RUN via a public link in the GW4 Forums http://www.geowoodstock4.com/ .

 

On the preparation of the run, we made the cache list available to everyone and shared all information BEFORE the run so others could go for the run on their own, if not in a 24 hour record manner than in parts to have fun and find some caches - a thing new to record runs to my knowledge. Things have been posted in the Forums of GW4-site and TXGA, the recrun is even mentioned on the GC.COM GW4-cache page. What other ways of gathering interest and feedback could we have used?

 

By your very rules you made yourself, you didn't make it clear that you were planning on defacing caches with a sharpie, the only time that should have been ok is if you specificially cleared it with the cache owner.

 

The upset about signing cache containers after the run is over may be understandbale, but I would have wished for MORE input and feedback to our posts BEFORE the run so rules / guidelines could have been adjusted to the wishes of THE LOCAL CACHE OWNERS and / or the whole caching community.

 

The lack of interest in this run BEFORE we went for it - even the local cachers did not post in the threads in their local forum - was surprising for me, as I was used to sharing fun and caching with the locals before, around and after Geowoodstock events.

 

Not everyone hits the forums, and not everyone may have understood your tiny addition of 'canister' into the logging rules. The rules you put up also says the log must be signed, and no virtuals or webcam caches because there is no log to sign, if you aren't even opening them, whats the point? why not just make a 'rule' for the next one that all you have to do is drive within 5 miles of the cache and not sign the cache to get a find. I think that to solve problems like this from happening in the future, there should be set rules for future attempts, must sign log, no vandalism of caches, must stay together, ect.

 

Yes, cache containers were signed by team members during the run if they were not camouflaged and if there was no harm to stealth factor if the cache.

Reports state that camo has been damaged because of this, whats next, mabye I should start logging my finds by spraying a dab of flourescent paint onto the container, I mean hey, if *I* don't feel that it compromises the camoflauge, its ok right?

 

Leaving a physical proof of 'we have been there' was very important to us to make our run revisable.

Thats what the log book is for. in a previous post, someone suggested a 3 person team, one grabs the cache, 2nd person opens it, 3rd signs log hands to 2nd person who reseals, who hands to 1st to rehide, all said that would take at most 30 seconds, if you made up a little stamper that said DRR and date cut time even shorter.

 

If feeling of record-run CACHE OWNERS were hurt - I do deeply beg your understanding and ask you to read the posts we made and to check the available information before the run started.

 

You didn't make it very clear that your primary logging method would be a sharpie to the outside of the container, in your very rules, you posted about signing the log, no virtuals because of no logs, ect, and only 1 word basically gave a tiny hint to your intent:

4 ) may use all equipment (GPSRs, Laptops, GPS repeaters, cell phones, PMRs, Flashlights, Tools, Pens and everything else you can think of) and has to find as many caches with a physical proof of this (signed logbook / canister with Team Name etc.)

 

I don't cache in the texas area, however, I definately don't want something like this to become common practice for runs like this and have to clean/replace my caches because they have been vandalized.

Link to comment

Hello from Dallas!

 

My name is geoPirat (from Germany) and I have been a member of this years record run team in Dallas / FW.

.........<snip>.......

Looking forward to meet some of you at GW4, I am open for your questions and criticism.

 

Why should we have to meet you? It could be rather time consuming. Just tell me where you park, and I'll put my initials in sharpie on your windshield. :ph34r:

Edited by 4wheelin_fool
Link to comment

The final rules for the record run have been posted on the TXA Forums, see here http://www.txga.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3370

This forum requires registration in order to view it. The GW4 forums are open forums, and the Groundspeak forums are open to anyone with an account at GC.com. If a "world record" is being claimed, it would be helpful if the "rules" made up by the record claimants were available for the world to see. Had they been posted in a forum that I followed, I would have had input. I may, however, have missed the subtle wording about signing the "canister." Hopefully the final version of the rules disclosed in bold capital letters: WE WILL SIGN THE OUTSIDE OF THE CACHE CONTAINER under the circumstances described above.

 

Could someone please post those rules here?

 

I registered in order to try to read the rules. All i can see is one post from Alabama Rambler which mentions nothing about rules, and then I see this:

 

Microsoft OLE DB Provider for ODBC Drivers error '80040e57'

[Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver]

String or binary data would be truncated. 

/forum/topic.asp, line 846

 

It seems that none of the other posts can be read because of the error.

 

If this is the method used to notify everyone that their caches would be scribbled on and that the established guidelines of geocaching would be ignored during this run, it appears to be a very unreliable way to do it.

Link to comment

In fact, rule number 5 implies that the logbook will be signed...at least it does to me.

 

Bret

As well as rule 3 which includes
writes the team sig in the logbook or on the container if the logbook can't be retrieved.
It doesn't says "sign the container if you don't want to take time to retrieved the logbook"
Link to comment
8. ) The route of the caches may (and should wisely) be chosen by each team and does NOT have to be the same for every team. The "normal" accepted guidelines to find / log a cache apply (human sense), e.g. a cache you have already found (logged at GC.COM) can't be found again if the cache has not been moved, you can't find a cache placed by you if it has not been moved by someone else etc. But if another Team member finds the cache, it is a count for the Team.

 

So where on earth is it considered within "normal accepted guidelines" to sign cache containers, rather than the logs they contain?

 

To claim that you broke the record by bending the established rules (and even, arguably, your own rules) is just wrong. As far as I'm concerned, you broke nothing except perhaps the camo jobs on the caches you found.

Edited by DocDiTTo
Link to comment

I don't care about records. I prefer to make a fun day out of caching by enjoying the activities of the area I'm in.

That said, it seems to me that the rules for geocaching are find the cache- sign the log- add your name to the list of others that have found it (unless the owner says differently).

Name stickers or a stamp that make it quicker to log in don't seem objectionable. It would seem to me that if you sign the container you are not playing by the rules.

Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...