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(one Of) Washington's Toughest


Criminal

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Your difficulty rating is off by 3.5 stars.

How do you figure? :) It's right out in the open:

I figure it's not quite a wheelchair access. :cry:

 

The wheelchair thing is for the terrain rating I believe. I ran it through the auto-rater on the submit page, it comes out to a 1/5.

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Your difficulty rating is off by 3.5 stars.

How do you figure? :D It's right out in the open:

I figure it's not quite a wheelchair access. :)

 

The wheelchair thing is for the terrain rating I believe. I ran it through the auto-rater on the submit page, it comes out to a 1/5.

TotemLake and I were discussing the cache rating system. One would think that after all this time (and 35 hides) I would understand how to properly rate a cache, but I was incorrect. Since TL was right, I wanted to let him know publicly.

 

I went back and took another look at the clayjar cache rating system. I’ve always been of the belief that the terrain rating got you to the cache area, and the difficulty rating applied only to the terminal hunt itself. I was mistaken. This is the last question in the rating wizard and seems to drive the difficulty rating:

How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

I read the first possible answer and checked it without looking at the rest. That rated my cache a 1/5. The cache is “in plain sight” after all. However, either of the last two answers also apply. By checking the last answer, my cache is a 5/5. I can accept either of the last two answers (in addition to the first) to rate my cache. I’ve only explored two of the three possible approaches to the summit, and the third may easier, harder, or the same, so for now I’ve rated it 5/5. I probably need to go back and revaluate the rest of my caches.

 

EDIT: 5

Edited by Criminal
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Your difficulty rating is off by 3.5 stars.

How do you figure? ;) It's right out in the open:

I figure it's not quite a wheelchair access. :huh:

 

The wheelchair thing is for the terrain rating I believe. I ran it through the auto-rater on the submit page, it comes out to a 1/5.

TotemLake and I were discussing the cache rating system. One would think that after all this time (and 35 hides) I would understand how to properly rate a cache, but I was incorrect. Since TL was right, I wanted to let him know publicly.

 

I went back and took another look at the clayjar cache rating system. I’ve always been of the belief that the terrain rating got you to the cache area, and the difficulty rating applied only to the terminal hunt itself. I was mistaken. This is the last question in the rating wizard and seems to drive the difficulty rating:

How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

I read the first possible answer and checked it without looking at the rest. That rated my cache a 1/5. The cache is “in plain sight” after all. However, either of the last two answers also apply. By checking the last answer, my cache is a 5/5. I can accept either of the last two answers (in addition to the first) to rate my cache. I’ve only explored two of the three possible approaches to the summit, and the third may easier, harder, or the same, so for now I’ve rated it 5/5. I probably need to go back and revaluate the rest of my caches.

 

EDIT: 5

;) You Da Man! :)

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Interesting. I have never looked all that carefully at that page I guess.

 

Most of the people that I cache with would have rated it a 1/5 due the same logic that you used. It seems like there is a lot of overlap in the D/T if you choose to use the exact wording of the rating system.

 

I however still feel that the intent of the system was that Terr is getting to the cache and Diff was once you were there. I know that you don't look for a lot of micros, but there are some that you could get too and still take days to actually find due to the creativity or evilness of the hide. You may need special knowledge to solve a puzzle that is left at the WP or to get the combo to open a lock. All would drasticly increase the Diff rating. (I know you know this I am just trying to be clear) ;)

 

To me I might rate it a 2 diff due to poor sat signal or lots of areas to look but from the pic I saw, once you get to the cache location it won't take anyone very long to find it.

 

Maybe a revision to the rating system is needed to clarify either way as that is the defacto standard these days.

So it might have been ment to say

 

How easy is it to find the cache?... Once you get to GZ?

Edited by AndrewRJ
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I would have used a variation of Crim's logic. The terrain is definitely a 5, difficulty of finding the cache is 1. Difficulty of logistics, though, is like solving a puzzle cache. Obviously, this one is going to take some work with a topo map before you ever leave home.

 

To me, the terrain rating means just what it says. The difficulty rating for this one should include scheduling time off, getting in shape, scouting out routes on a topo...because those are all pieces of the "puzzle." I'd give it 3/5.

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How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

You'll notice these are checkboxes for conditions and not options. This means if any of these conditions can be met you should check each box. An option would only allow you to select one option and that's it. It is understood this is a simple algorithm to help the novice assign the appropriate level. Condition 1 is only part of the equation. Condition 4 best meets the remaining conditions of gaining access to the cache and Condition 5 meets part of the condtion.

 

As you gain experience, your experience should allow you to modify the level accordingly.

 

In private conversation, my assesment was to initially assign it 4.5. Looking at comparible caches hidden by EGH, knocks it down to a 2 - 2.5. But you have to take into consideration EGH tends to place the difficulty based on his ability. So the average hiker would probably see a realistic asssesment of 2.5 - 3.5.

 

Condition 1 - yes the cache is in an obvious location and in plain sight... once you get there.

However...

Condition 5 - This is a serious physical challenge.

...and as stated by the cache description...

Condition 4 - Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

 

YMWV based on your personal experience.

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Criminal.

 

How's the view from French Peak? Are there some rocks you can climb on? If you can get above the trees, the views must be amazing.

No, you cannot get above the trees, so all views are through. There's a great view of Whitehorse Mt between the trees, the picture is in my note. The Groundspeak picture de-sharpinator takes a lot away from the original.

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How easy is it to find the cache?

Cache is in plain sight or location is fairly obvious.

Cache could be in one of several locations. Hunter may have to look for a while.

Cache may be very well hidden, may be multi-leg, or may use clues to location.

Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

You'll notice these are checkboxes for conditions and not options. This means if any of these conditions can be met you should check each box. An option would only allow you to select one option and that's it. It is understood this is a simple algorithm to help the novice assign the appropriate level. Condition 1 is only part of the equation. Condition 4 best meets the remaining conditions of gaining access to the cache and Condition 5 meets part of the condtion.

 

As you gain experience, your experience should allow you to modify the level accordingly.

 

In private conversation, my assesment was to initially assign it 4.5. Looking at comparible caches hidden by EGH, knocks it down to a 2 - 2.5. But you have to take into consideration EGH tends to place the difficulty based on his ability. So the average hiker would probably see a realistic asssesment of 2.5 - 3.5.

 

Condition 1 - yes the cache is in an obvious location and in plain sight... once you get there.

However...

Condition 5 - This is a serious physical challenge.

...and as stated by the cache description...

Condition 4 - Cache likely requires special skills, knowledge, or in-depth preparation to find. May require multiple days or trips to find

 

YMWV based on your personal experience.

 

I have to take back what I said about the multiple choice options. CJ's rating system is a select the best one that fits option.

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I like Criminal's first thought on the difficulty rating. I want to know how many hiding places I have to look in for the darned thing. I have, on numerous occasions, spent 1-3 DAYS looking for someone, and I'm reluctant to invest much time in tupperware micros ammo cans.

 

A good hike, now, is another story! :sad:

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I like Criminal's first thought on the difficulty rating. I want to know how many hiding places I have to look in for the darned thing.

I agree, and it seems to me folks are making this too complicated. I realize the "clayjar" form isn't necessarily "official" as to what goes into difficulty and terrain ratings, but if you look at the form, I think it's obvious that the first 6 questions relate to terrain (what it takes to get to ground zero), and the last question - which is separated from all of the others by a horizontal line on the form - relates to difficulty (what it takes to find the cache, once at ground zero). A "5" in terrain means you won't even get to GZ without special equipment, etc (e.g., climbing gear; a boat). A "5" in difficulty means once at GZ, you'll need special equipment, etc. (e.g., a magnet; a screwdriver).

 

If Criminal's cache - sitting out in the open - is a "5 difficulty" cache, then the rating - and the differentiation between difficulty and terrain - is meaningless.

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I like Criminal's first thought on the difficulty rating. I want to know how many hiding places I have to look in for the darned thing.

I agree, and it seems to me folks are making this too complicated. I realize the "clayjar" form isn't necessarily "official" as to what goes into difficulty and terrain ratings, but if you look at the form, I think it's obvious that the first 6 questions relate to terrain (what it takes to get to ground zero), and the last question - which is separated from all of the others by a horizontal line on the form - relates to difficulty (what it takes to find the cache, once at ground zero). A "5" in terrain means you won't even get to GZ without special equipment, etc (e.g., climbing gear; a boat). A "5" in difficulty means once at GZ, you'll need special equipment, etc. (e.g., a magnet; a screwdriver).

 

If Criminal's cache - sitting out in the open - is a "5 difficulty" cache, then the rating - and the differentiation between difficulty and terrain - is meaningless.

I can see why this assessment keeps coming to that. You'll need to read the bottom of that last selection:

 

Please consider visibility, accessibility, and relative signal strength due to tree cover or other obstructions when answering this question.

 

That means this assessment of difficulty is more than just being at ground zero.

 

In it's simplest terms, terrain is an obstacle that must be overcome. Difficulty is how easy it is to overcome that obstacle. A lot of people seem to be getting this backwards.

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A "5" in difficulty means once at GZ, you'll need special equipment, etc. (e.g., a magnet; a screwdriver).

…and there is another definition that is lacking from the geocaching lexicon. What, exactly, constitutes ‘special equipment’ that one might need to find a geocache? My definition has always been; “Items of equipment that require specialized knowledge and training to safely and/or effectively employ.” SCUBA would be one, rappelling gear is another. A flashlight or a screwdriver would fall under ‘extra’ equipment, much like hiking boots (instead of sandals or sneakers), gloves, or trekking poles. Are all night caches worthy of five star difficulty ratings merely because you need a flashlight?

Edited by Criminal
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Being naive and simplistic, I only use the stars to gauge how carefully I need to read the cache description; if either rating is high I would hope the description details why. In the case of French Peak I feel the 5 star difficulty is misleading and does not compare to the difficulty of GCKGTV

 

Scrambiling around forest debris is less difficult than dangling from a rope searching a cliff :lol:

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Being naive and simplistic, I only use the stars to gauge how carefully I need to read the cache description; if either rating is high I would hope the description details why. In the case of French Peak I feel the 5 star difficulty is misleading and does not compare to the difficulty of GCKGTV

 

Scrambiling around forest debris is less difficult than dangling from a rope searching a cliff :tired:

Well, there's a Groundspeak Lacky coin in there when you FTF it. Let me know afterwards if you think it's rated appropriately. :lol:

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Too bad you didn’t try my Evergreen Feast Series before the locals cut ATV trails; the early finders seemed to agree on what a double five star meant. :lol:

 

Oh, I forgot to mention that I’m lazy; I’ll fight through a lot of brush for a fish or a view but not for a scrap of metal or FTF. If I finally get around to doing French Peak, I would have to de-rate it just to make me a real man’s man! :tired:

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I like Criminal's first thought on the difficulty rating. I want to know how many hiding places I have to look in for the darned thing. I have, on numerous occasions, spent 1-3 DAYS looking for someone, and I'm reluctant to invest much time in tupperware micros ammo cans.

 

A good hike, now, is another story! :laughing:

 

I agree Criminal had it right the first time.

 

The cache difficulty is for actually finding the cache and signing the log. If I hike 222 miles in and it's in plain sight from 3 miles a way. That's a 1 for cache difficulty.

 

If it's in plain sight but i have to hike back for a crobar and 6 gorillas to open the cache, after I guess the 6 digit combo lock, only to find that I have to swap the cache for a rock of exactly equal weight or the trap is sprung. That's a 5.

 

The physical and mental challenge for cache difficulty is for the cache itself.

Edited by Renegade Knight
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I agree with Criminal on over rating caches like the one he has. If someone sees a 1/5, They might ignore everything else and come ill prepared. A 5/5 tends to get noticed. The last thing any of us wants is someone getting killed trying to find one of our caches.

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If it's in plain sight but i have to hike back for a crobar and 6 gorillas to open the cache, after I guess the 6 digit combo lock, only to find that I have to swap the cache for a rock of exactly equal weight or the trap is sprung. That's a 5.

 

RK you do come up with some wonderful cache ideas :laughing:

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If it's in plain sight but i have to hike back for a crobar and 6 gorillas to open the cache, after I guess the 6 digit combo lock, only to find that I have to swap the cache for a rock of exactly equal weight or the trap is sprung. That's a 5.

 

RK you do come up with some wonderful cache ideas ;)

 

 

I was surprised to see it was rated a 1/5 when I initially saw it pop up. I've always tied the two together. The 5/5 rating is too high IMHO. Not having done this cache yet that may change!.....:) What specialized equipment is required to do this cache? If I can reach it in a day with standard hiking gear then I think a 5 is a bit too high. My initial thoughts after looking at the map and your description put it at a 4/4.5

 

I have my Skyline the Top and On the way to Florence Rae rated at 5 only because I started them off with a M10 bike coin. I didn't want anyone to get hurt. It's about time I changed those. They really aren't a 5 for most hikers. It is a balancing act on ratings, so I suppose your 5/5 is justified till several do it.

 

It's good to see a challenging new mountain cache come up. You could of at least put a M10bike coin in it and I might have gone out in all this rain and gave it a try. I figure if you're going to be miserable on a hike you might as well go all the way!.......:)

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Oh forgot to add. Runhills have you or anyone attempted Last Will and Testement? I was over there last week scoping out the route from Nason Ridge and it looks doable without ropes. If you read the cache description they took the most difficult route using ropes. I wonder if it's reachable from below? You would have to do it on a cloudy day or the sun would be brutal and it would be a 2500 ft climb. 2 months ago would have been the time to do it when there was snow on the ground and the brush covered. Still might give it a try this week if it's not too hot.

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Too bad you didn’t try my Evergreen Feast Series before the locals cut ATV trails; the early finders seemed to agree on what a double five star meant. ;)

 

There are ATV trails?! Coulda used a few of those two years ago....naw, that would've taken all the 'fun' out of it.

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Three things to add:

 

1) Killer cacher, Criminal! Your efforts are appreciated. I hope I get the courage and strength to attempt it.

 

2) I think RK has a clear interpretation of the ratings. If it is a 5/5 now, what would it be if you added a puzzle and made it a micro? The answer: Harder to find! So it's probably a 1/5 or a 2/5 by virtue of the fact that (a) it's an ammo can (;) signal is probably okay up there © you don't have to perform any mental magic, etc. Regarding 'specialized equipment', I don't think it includes flashlights or anything else that most people own, know how to use, and might reasonably have in their backpacks. SCUBA gear, helicopters, ladders, grappling hooks...that's specialized gear in my mind. Again, I think Renegade Knight explained it pretty well.

 

3) If anyone is aiming to go after this one in the next couple of months, I'd love to get some video footage for the next geocaching DVD. That doesn't necessarily mean I'll join you; it just means take a camcorder!

 

Cheers,

Seth!

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Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

This is the last answer to the last question. I can check that answer, it IS a serious physical challenge. At one point, one of the times I thought my heart was going to explode, I stopped and looked down. I thought it was raining. It was the sweat pouring off my head sprinkling on the leaves. But it was also a mental challenge for me. To be completely alone on a ridge where few people have set their feet, far away from anyone or any help, many hours from the nearest trail, that was a serious mental challenge. When you’re following a noisy stream, you consider that any large animals cannot hear you coming. Whenever you stop for a moment and the hillside falls away beneath you. When you make a few too many last-ditch desperate grabs on saplings to keep from plummeting down the hillside. When you know that you are the needle in the haystack if something really bad should happen.

 

The mental and physical challenge is there. I can rate it a 1/5, a 4.5/5 or a 5/5, depending on how I answer that one question. If several people go together and make a two-nighter of it, it would likely be less. I don’t know. I’ll be happy to take the advice of a few hunters first.

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The question: Finding this cache requires very specialized knowledge, skills, or equipment. This is a serious mental or physical challenge.

 

AndrewRJ:

 

It seems like there is a lot of overlap in the D/T if you choose to use the exact wording of the rating system...Maybe a revision to the rating system is needed to clarify either way as that is the defacto standard these days.

 

Lightning Jeff:

 

A "5" in terrain means you won't even get to GZ without special equipment, etc (e.g., climbing gear; a boat). A "5" in difficulty means once at GZ, you'll need special equipment, etc. (e.g., a magnet; a screwdriver). If Criminal's cache - sitting out in the open - is a "5 difficulty" cache, then the rating - and the differentiation between difficulty and terrain - is meaningless.

 

As AndrewRJ, Map Only, and Lightning Jeff said (or at least implied), the question seems to be a limitation of the rating wizard--and possibly the semantics of the labels. There needs to be distinction between Difficulty and Terrain in order for them to be useful to us. The grueling physical effort to arrive at GZ should, in my opinion, be reflected in Terrain. A level 5 terrain should be implicitly challenging (or 'difficult ') for most people to physically do. This leaves the DifficultY rating to describe some other aspect of the hunt.

 

Cheers,

Seth!

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So far, I'm seeing personal interpretations with no other definitive guideline except as provided by ClayJar's test. The final option defines the difficulty and that final option can be interpreted in many ways as we all can see here in this thread.

 

Perhaps a D/T guideline is finally needed on geocaching.com to clear the confusion? Perhaps a higher resolution test should be created. There is a given difficulty in terrain, but that shouldn't preclude or ignore the difficulty in access to the cache.

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Oh forgot to add. Runhills have you or anyone attempted Last Will and Testement? I was over there last week scoping out the route from Nason Ridge and it looks doable without ropes. If you read the cache description they took the most difficult route using ropes. I wonder if it's reachable from below? You would have to do it on a cloudy day or the sun would be brutal and it would be a 2500 ft climb. 2 months ago would have been the time to do it when there was snow on the ground and the brush covered. Still might give it a try this week if it's not too hot.

 

I have not made an attempt but plead guilty to looking at it. Timing is critical, one would want enough snow to cover the brush but leave ground zero snowfree. Expert use of an ice axe would be required. I sort of tabled the idea because I would rather spend my caching time seeing more country.

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