Us Engineers -> Army Corps Of Engineers

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I've found a few United States Engineers Dept. disks and a few U.S. Army Corps of Engineers disks. Yesterday I found one of each.

 

Both types will typically have "USE" somewhere in the designation, and "DOD" as monumenting agency. USE also set lots of chiseled squares early in the 20th century (at least in NYC). One early document I've read mentioned the US Engineers as part of the "War Department".

 

But when did the name change take place? My U.S. Army Corps of Engineers disk is dated 1938 and I thought the United States Engineers disks were still in use into the 1940s? Was the change gradual? Was there an overlap? (maybe they just took some years to use (pun intended) the old blank disks up).

 

Here's my USE disk (KU0983 "TIDAL 56 USE STA II 6"):

 

(click for full size image)

 

And here's my Corps of Engineers disk (KU0981 "3 USE"):

 

(click for full size image)

 

BTW: I can't quite read where it says to notify on the first disk. It seems to start with "WOOD...". Maybe Woodside Queens? Anyone know about that sort of thing?

 

BuckBrooke, Black Dog Trackers: do you collect "USE" disk images for every possible location in the notification warning?

 

Thanks,

Pb

Edited May 18, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+BuckBrooke]

Yes, on the different notification warnings. There's a lot of US Engineer offices that are missing, and the notifications are different variations that I would like to note.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

...

BTW: I can't quite read where it says to notify on the first disk. It seems to start with "WOOD...". Maybe Woodside Queens? Anyone know about that sort of thing?

...

 

I've studied that photo a bit more and I think it's "ROOK..." not "WOOD..." so I'm guessing it's "BROOKLYN" not "WOODSIDE", makes a lot more sense. So the warning would be

 

"DO NOT

MOVE THIS MARK

BEFORE NOTICE TO

US ENGINEER OFFICE

BROOKLYN

ARMY BLDG."

 

Note also that it says "ARMY BLDG." not "ARMY BASE" which makes it harder to pin down, since there may have been an Army building in Brooklyn long before or after an actual base.

 

My guess is that aside from the chiseled cross and the 2 copper bolts, this is the oldest bench mark in the place and I would have guessed around 1930. If there were no overlap in the use of the names, it would have to be earlier than 1938 Since the two "U.S. ARMY CORPS OF ENGINEERS" marks here are dated 1938.

 

And that of course was the opriginal question of this thread.

 

Anyone else know about this stuff? There was a similar discussion of a mark I recovered on the railroad bridge at Spuyten Duyvil at the north end of Manhattan, but I don't recall who said what. But the printing on this marks looks to be the same as that (which was much harder to read) which I will display here from the photo on my log for KU0914 "X 337 USE"

 

(click for full size)

 

Pb

Edited May 19, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+Shorelander]

I actually think that says "ROOM [ ]" with a spot for the room number. I don't think the Boston disks labeled the place (see another thread), so New York's might not have either.

 

Edit: Oh, yeah, except for where it says "NEW YORK" on the bottom. (I need some sleep, I guess.)

Edited May 19, 2006 by Shorelander

[+Renegade Knight]

I've heard you can use baby powder on the disks to make them easier to read. Maybe it was talcum powder. Same idea though.

[+Klemmer]

Corn starch works well for me. I carry a small medicine bottle of it in my pack. Rinses off well, bio-degradable (a consideration out here on the left coast, in tree hugger land, including my daughters).

Edited May 19, 2006 by Klemmer & TeddyBearMama

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

I actually think that says "ROOM [ ]" with a spot for the room number. I don't think the Boston disks labeled the place (see another thread), so New York's might not have either.

 

Edit: Oh, yeah, except for where it says "NEW YORK" on the bottom. (I need some sleep, I guess.)

Wow! I completely missed the "NEW YORK" along the bottom.

 

So it's "Room xx, Army Bldg. New York". This is starting to makes more sense. And you could also make a case for "NEW YORK" on that eroded Spuyten Duyvil disk, so I am assuming the two are the same disk type and the Fort Totten disk is a much better photo.

 

And assuming the guys who might want to move this disk were familiar with Arlo Guthrie's "Alices Restaurant", they would know right where the Army building is: "They got a building down New York City, it's called Whitehall Street, where you walk in, you get injected, inspected, detected, infected, neglected and selected. "

 

All kidding aside, the United States Army Building at 39 Whitehall Street, was built in 1886, and yes it was the very building Arlo Guthrie reported to (and was rejected, not selected) in the 60s.

 

And thanks for the suggestions of highlighting the lettering on old disks, but remember, the lettering on these USE disks is raised unlike most disks (and unlike the Corps of Engineers disks I logged) so the powder would probably not help here much (unless there is actually a room number stamped, which I doubt).

 

Now back to the original question: when did they make the name change and change the disks?

 

As ever,

Pb

Edited May 19, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+Klemmer]

Here is another link to a different USACE History page, at the Army Engineering Museum. Interesting, but it still doesn't realy answer your basic question.

 

It DOES however, give me the general sense that there is some difference between the US Army CORPS of Engineers, and the various engineering battalions (and other units) that have existed at times (and still do) WITHIN the traditional Army structure (not exactly part of the CORPS (except perhaps administratively).

 

SO - I hypothesize that the "US Engineer" term was used loosely (especially during the 30's & 40's) by Army Engineers that were not exactly part of the US Army Corps of Engineers formal structure. It's only a theory / hypothesis. Take shots at it, if you want.

[+BuckBrooke]

This article seems to make a clear distinction between the Corps and the US Engineer Department in 1944, in Yukon.

 

This Corps of Engineers article seems to imply that as of 1950 the US Engineer Department was the name used for the Corps of Engineers when it was working on civilian projects. Sometime after that the name went away, I suppose.

Edited May 19, 2006 by BuckBrooke

[+Klemmer]

This Corps of Engineers article seems to imply that as of 1950 the US Engineer Department was the name used for the Corps of Engineers when it was working on civilian projects. Sometime after that the name went away, I suppose.

 

The above article jumps back and forth, using "Army Corps of Engineers" (or "Corps of Engineers" or "the Corp") completely interchangeably with the terms "Engineering Department" or "US Engineers" or even "USED" (which we know is "US Engineering Department"). From the way they USE it (pun intended), I think that they are always referring to the "US Army Corps of Engineers". Could the other terms be just various slang terms that fell out of normal usage?

[Wintertime]

[The above article jumps back and forth, using "Army Corps of Engineers" (or "Corps of Engineers" or "the Corp") completely interchangeably with the terms "Engineering Department" or "US Engineers" or even "USED" (which we know is "US Engineering Department"). From the way they USE it (pun intended), I think that they are always referring to the "US Army Corps of Engineers". Could the other terms be just various slang terms that fell out of normal usage?

"U.S. Engineer Department" can't just be someone's slang reference to the Army Corps of Engineers, because in this thread, someone had a photo of a benchmark that said "U.S. Engineer Department." I asked at the time who that group was, but didn't get any answers.

 

As I mentioned in that thread, there are a couple of mentions of the U.S. Engineer Department on the Army Corps of Engineeer's history page, but no explanation of who the department is/was, or what their relationship is/was to the Army Corps of Engineeers. That page has references to both groups existing in the early 1800s.

 

Patty

[+BuckBrooke]

I have no idea why they did it that way, but I have the feeling that the US Corps of Engineers used the name "United States Engineer Department" when they were working on civilian projects into the 1950s, at least.

 

In some of the material I've run across there seems that Congress gave money for civilian engineering projects post Revolutionary War, and that the army engineers either hired civilians or split off part of their efforts to handle those specific projects. It seems like that situation was strengthened with the real formation of the Corps in the early 1800s, and that it continued with this "United States Engineer Department" and "Corps of Engineers - War Department" for civil vs. military surveying projects until just after WWII. I guess at that point someone found it silly to have the distinction between the two, which is when the civilian "Districts" were merged into the Corps.

 

Thoughts?

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I have no idea why they did it that way, but I have the feeling that the US Corps of Engineers used the name "United States Engineer Department" when they were working on civilian projects into the 1950s, at least.

 

In some of the material I've run across there seems that Congress gave money for civilian engineering projects post Revolutionary War, and that the army engineers either hired civilians or split off part of their efforts to handle those specific projects. It seems like that situation was strengthened with the real formation of the Corps in the early 1800s, and that it continued with this "United States Engineer Department" and "Corps of Engineers - War Department" for civil vs. military surveying projects until just after WWII. I guess at that point someone found it silly to have the distinction between the two, which is when the civilian "Districts" were merged into the Corps.

 

Thoughts?

 

Maybe it one of those "need to know" and we are not the ones that have the "need"?

 

What we do know, is that there have been DOD disks found recently, are these part of that same group or a different military/government department altogether? And were there any placed by every military branch? Are there any placed by any other Official US Governmental Deparment other than DOD, NGS, USGS, CGS, USED, Corps of Engineers, GLO, NPS? Were there any by the US Bureau of Indian Affairs, FBI, US ag -- you get my drift? Has anyone seen any disks placed by some group to make you wonder why?

 

Enough questions.....I have to go to work now....Happy hunting.

 

Shirley~

[Wintertime]

What we do know, is that there have been DOD disks found recently, are these part of that same group or a different military/government department altogether? And were there any placed by every military branch?

I found HT2259, which was monumented by the U.S. Army in 1961.

 

Are there any placed by any other Official US Governmental Deparment other than DOD, NGS, USGS, CGS, USED, Corps of Engineers, GLO, NPS? Were there any by the US Bureau of Indian Affairs, FBI, US ag -- you get my drift?

Oh yeah, I've found a bunch of Dept. of Agriculture disks--specifically, the Bureau of Public Roads--in Yosemite. HR0728 is just one of them.

 

Patty

[+rogbarn]

There are several in the NGS database located in National Forests that are cadastral survey markers placed by the Forest Service, Dept. of Agriculture. See HB1862 (main mark-metal rod) and HB1861 (azimuth-disk). Also HB1860/HB1859 if you want more pictures, but basicly the same.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Here's an article by one Henry Abbot with the title Brevet Brigdier-General, U. S. Army, Colonel, Corps of Engineers. (just his title implies a strange relationeship between the C. of E. and the regular army). This was part of a larger exposion on the Army and was written in 1886.

 

http://www.army.mil/Cmh-Pg/books/R&H/R&H-Engrs.htm

 

Lot's of historical stuff that goes back to the Continental Congress. Besides mention of the Corps of Engineers, he mentions "a separate topographical bureau was established in the War Department" in 1818 and "by Act of July 5, 1838, an independent Corps of Topographical Engineers was created by Congress". It was eventually merged with the Corps of Engineers in 1863: "by Act of March 3, 1863, it was provided: That the Corps of Topographical Engineers, as a distinct branch of the army, is hereby abolished, and from and after the passage of the Act, is merged into the Corps of Engineers".

 

As for the Engineer Department "The "Engineer Department" was established by order of the President shortly after the war of 1812, as a separate command with geographical limits coextensive with those of the United States and embracing the Corps of Engineers, and such officers of topographical engineers and other arms of service" which implies it lay above the Corps of Engineers.

 

I'll have to read the thing a few times to figure it out. A lot of names came and went in the 100+ years the orgainzation existed before this was written. And that was 120 years ago!

 

Worth a look.

[holograph]

Here's another reference:

 

"The Corps of Engineers, previously the Engineer Department in the Department of War (1802-1947) and the National Military Establishment (1947-1949), transferred to the Department of Defense in 1949."

 

Another source:

 

"The Engineer Department remained under the War Department until 1947, when it was reassigned to the Army Department, first as part of the National Military Establishment and in 1949 as part of the Department of Defense ."

 

That would indicate that the Engineer Department became the Corps of Engineers around 1947-1949.

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Here's another reference:

 

"The Corps of Engineers, previously the Engineer Department in the Department of War (1802-1947) and the National Military Establishment (1947-1949), transferred to the Department of Defense in 1949."

 

Another source:

 

"The Engineer Department remained under the War Department until 1947, when it was reassigned to the Army Department, first as part of the National Military Establishment and in 1949 as part of the Department of Defense ."

 

That would indicate that the Engineer Department became the Corps of Engineers around 1947-1949.

Hmm

 

That's interesting. The first quote is at odds with the long 1886 hisatory of the Corps which I quoted from. That history mentions the Engineer Department as reporting to the War Department (as your quote states) and as of 1812 "embracing the Corps of Engineers, and such officers of topographical engineers and other arms of service". Since the history also maintains throughout that the Corps was part of the Army, it implies what in industry we would call a "dotted line" reporting relationship. In other words the Corps reported up to the Army command, but also to the Engineer Deptartment, which as part of the War Department was at the same reporting level as the Army itself. This situation usually (in industry) leads to conflicts and divided loyalty. Probably it led to similar issues in these organizations.

 

Then the second quote states that the Engineer Department was in effect down graded by being moved from the War Department into the Army. At this point we can assume it became merged with the Corps. But we don't know that for sure (at least from these sources quoted) since there may still be an Engineer Dept. in the Army (above, below or beside the Corp.)

 

As for 1949, The second part of that quote is confusing. The War Department became the Defence Department (just a name change to reflect the new "Cold War" reality), so nothing was transfered. I would say whoever wrote that was not being very clear about reporting relationships.

 

But at least untill 1947, it appears that the Engineer Dept. was separate from the Corps and was an umbrella organization that included the Corps. As for those other groups: "and such officers of topographical engineers and other arms of service", they must have just faded away (to quote one famous general). I wonder if the Navy ever had a separate engineer group?