+New England n00b Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 What I said is directly relevant to the topic. It's in support of my argument for trashing out those items. You're getting a bit repetitive Mr. Deuce. No, what it means is that you need to worry less about getting your personal and off-topic viewpoint made in this forum and address the topic, which by the way has been discussed more times than I can count. Let me catch you up. Trade even, Trade up, or don't trade at all. What I said IS on topic. Nothing personal intended, but I think it's quite in-disputable that you are being repetitive. I have stated a valid reason for trashing that stuff out. I invite you to do the same, rather than repeating an unsupported statement. I'll be the repetitive one if you want. This stuff is offensive. Tracts are a direct statement that I am not only going to burn in hell, but that I am worthy of such fate due to my vileness. It's not at all unreasonable to feel offended by that. My argument is that this stuff is trash, not a trade item. I consider "nothing" to be an even trade for trash. PS: It doesn't matter how often it's been discussed before. The OP asked about it. It hasn't been discussed by me, and I have a right to express my on-topic and non-personal views. Wait - this isn't your personal opinion? Go ahead and be offended aaallllll you want. Instead of being a jerk about it, why not email the people who left teh stuff and have a debate with them? It isn't lik it is hard to find out if they left a detailed log. Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 (edited) Before you can convince me that I need to be saved in the first place, you need to convince me that I am a bad person. I don't believe I'm a bad person. And I'm offended by those tracts, because they are DIRECTLY telling me that I am a bad person. Why else would I need to be saved? SOME christians go around telling us we're evil, we have "sinned" and not only will we burn in hell for eternity, but we fully deserve it because we are such bad creatures... And then they get offended if I disagree? Don't they ever get sick of running around being offended all the time? When is it my turn? The first thing you need to know about being a bad person is that what you believe doesn't matter. You are or you aren't by whatever yardstick is being used regardless of how you feel about yourself. You can be a happy, well adjusted, and fully rationalized truly evil person who feels good about life and themselves. The yardstick society uses is reflected in it's laws. The one christians use is in the bible and so on. There are a lot of yardsticks by which you can measure if a person is good or bad. They tend to have a lot in common but not everthing. The second thing you need to know about right or wrong is that while we as humans have an instinctive grasp of it, you still have to strive for 'perfection' by using an external frame of reference to measure yourself against. The reason is that we are also great at rationalizing what we really want to do and sometimes the waters are murky when we are personally involved. Most all people are shades of gray. Some lighter some darker. Few are truly perfectly good or evil. What defines us to a large extent is which way we stive to achieve even if we fail. As for being saved, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with you being a good or bad person. At least from the christian side of things. I can't speak for other faiths, or even your own redemption in the eyes of humanity. Lastly if you are offended by people of faith practicing their faith as they are supposed to do, and if those people of faith are offended by you disagreeing with their views (aka practicing your competing faith or lack of it) then, neither of you is providing a steller example of how to get along since you are stuck sharing this earth during the living years. Edited May 17, 2006 by Renegade Knight Link to comment
+budd-rdc Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Oh goody, this conversation again. Here's what you do. Trade even, Trade up, or don't trade at all If I find food, porn, fireworks or religious tracts in a cache, I'll trash it out. It's not a trade item. It's trash. You can best use your enthusiasm by treating these as trade items and leaving something else in exchange. This way, you are showing more respect to the cache than the people who placed the tracts, a "high road" way of making your statement. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Oh goody, this conversation again. Here's what you do. Trade even, Trade up, or don't trade at all If I find food, porn, fireworks or religious tracts in a cache, I'll trash it out. It's not a trade item. It's trash. You can best use your enthusiasm by treating these as trade items and leaving something else in exchange. This way, you are showing more respect to the cache than the people who placed the tracts, a "high road" way of making your statement. What would you consider an even trade for tracts? Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I have also found a number of caches at places of worship, maybe described as "here is where we go to church" and such. I have opinions on these, but I have learned that if you say TFTC and let it go that it makes everything better for everyone. LIGHTEN UP! Link to comment
+budd-rdc Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Oh goody, this conversation again. Here's what you do. Trade even, Trade up, or don't trade at all If I find food, porn, fireworks or religious tracts in a cache, I'll trash it out. It's not a trade item. It's trash. You can best use your enthusiasm by treating these as trade items and leaving something else in exchange. This way, you are showing more respect to the cache than the people who placed the tracts, a "high road" way of making your statement. What would you consider an even trade for tracts? If you have a signature item, that would be appropriate. Any toys kids might like (HotWheels, and even McToys) would be fine, too. Tool sets are great for grown ups, and sets of brand new batteries are much more functional (and helpful) than any religious tracts I know. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I have also found a number of caches at places of worship, maybe described as "here is where we go to church" and such. I have opinions on these, but I have learned that if you say TFTC and let it go that it makes everything better for everyone. LIGHTEN UP! I agree with all of that, except the "lighten up!" part. That makes light of my feelings. I know that christians have the PC cops on their side, but I feel that my feelings are equally valid here. There tracts directly tell me that I am evil and in need of salvation. I don't like being told that I am a bad person. I shouldn't have to see that in caches, and I don't like the idea of children being told that either. Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 ...What would you consider an even trade for tracts?... Tracts. Tread Lightly makes laminated plastic 'tracts' that are pretty cool. There are a truckload of joke tracts. Cupons for a free soda. Travel Guides from the Visitors Center. Tracts are mass produced inexpensive items that people get for free at church. Thus anything that is mass produced for giving away free is a fair trade item. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 ...What would you consider an even trade for tracts?... Tracts. Tread Lightly makes laminated plastic 'tracts' that are pretty cool. There are a truckload of joke tracts. Cupons for a free soda. Travel Guides from the Visitors Center. Tracts are mass produced inexpensive items that people get for free at church. Thus anything that is mass produced for giving away free is a fair trade item. Fair enough. But in my opinion I'm increasing the quality of the cache, simply be trashing the tracts out. Then I can trade, (even, up or not) for non-trash items. I see no problem with removing offensive materials from caches. Link to comment
+Team Red Oak Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 What would you consider an even trade for tracts? Golf balls and broken McDonald's toys which is why I don't trade for tracts. I leave them in the cache. If I ever come across a cache stuffed full of religous tracts so there is no room for anything else, I would take some out as trash, but I would leave some for other people who would find the information useful. Link to comment
+wesleykey Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I agree with all of that, except the "lighten up!" part. That makes light of my feelings. I know that christians have the PC cops on their side, but I feel that my feelings are equally valid here. There tracts directly tell me that I am evil and in need of salvation. I don't like being told that I am a bad person. I shouldn't have to see that in caches, and I don't like the idea of children being told that either. But, realize I might be offended when you take out a tract and put in a McDonalds toy. The toy makes me think of fattening burgers and it makes me self-conscious. LIGHTEN UP! Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I have also found a number of caches at places of worship, maybe described as "here is where we go to church" and such. I have opinions on these, but I have learned that if you say TFTC and let it go that it makes everything better for everyone. LIGHTEN UP! I agree with all of that, except the "lighten up!" part. That makes light of my feelings. I know that christians have the PC cops on their side, but I feel that my feelings are equally valid here. There tracts directly tell me that I am evil and in need of salvation. I don't like being told that I am a bad person. I shouldn't have to see that in caches, and I don't like the idea of children being told that either. Even if you are 99 and 44/100ths good like Ivory Soap that leaves 66/100ths evil. Also keep in mind that the person who wrote that tract could be 89% good or 62%. In the christian world nobody is perfect not even the person handing out the tract. You have no right to limit others viewpoints or their ability to express them, merely the freedom to leave if you don't like what you are hearing. This runs both directions. As far as the PC cops, I'm not sure you are paying attention in the world, but being a chrisitan is no longer PC. PC is now all about higher powers. Link to comment
+nfa Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I treat Christian propaganda the same way that I treat pornography in geocaches...freedom of speech that I don't think belongs in geocaches...so I trade it out, and chuck it. Jamie - NFA Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 ...What would you consider an even trade for tracts?... Tracts. Tread Lightly makes laminated plastic 'tracts' that are pretty cool. There are a truckload of joke tracts. Cupons for a free soda. Travel Guides from the Visitors Center. Tracts are mass produced inexpensive items that people get for free at church. Thus anything that is mass produced for giving away free is a fair trade item. Fair enough. But in my opinion I'm increasing the quality of the cache, simply be trashing the tracts out. Then I can trade, (even, up or not) for non-trash items. I see no problem with removing offensive materials from caches. Now hold on. No one said you shouldn't remove offensive items. There are plently of things I don't like in a cache, (well ok, not that many things really). But I find used ticket stubs far more offensive, it says to me that that cacher doesn't play nice. What do I do? The same thing I do on any cache. I'm I trading? Probably not. Does it need more swag? Ok, I'll trade up. That's all I see to be neccesary. No one else needs to follow that practice. Link to comment
+Renegade Knight Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 ...What would you consider an even trade for tracts?... Tracts. Tread Lightly makes laminated plastic 'tracts' that are pretty cool. There are a truckload of joke tracts. Cupons for a free soda. Travel Guides from the Visitors Center. Tracts are mass produced inexpensive items that people get for free at church. Thus anything that is mass produced for giving away free is a fair trade item. Fair enough. But in my opinion I'm increasing the quality of the cache, simply be trashing the tracts out. Then I can trade, (even, up or not) for non-trash items. I see no problem with removing offensive materials from caches. Taking the tract even if all you do is trash it, is playing into the hands of the Christian Agenda you so desparatly want to avoid. The only way you can 'win' is to not even notice them. That you are bothered by thoughts you have from having read them is the surest signal that the tract has done it's job. It's gotten you to thinking. Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Ever notice how the OP's start this type of carp and then disapear into the vapor? This guy would be proud: Ivan Petrovich Pavlov I am amazed, myself: why is it that forum threads about gays, guns, religion, and "DO.NOT.ACCEPT.FOOD.FROM.THE.PIG" quickly grow into three-plus pages overnite, while threads about wholesome fun topics such as hamster swap caches, ragdoll cat adoption caches, and space-alien-abductee rendezvous caches just wither on the vine? Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 You have no right to limit others viewpoints or their ability to express them, merely the freedom to leave if you don't like what you are hearing. This runs both directions. As far as the PC cops, I'm not sure you are paying attention in the world, but being a chrisitan is no longer PC. PC is now all about higher powers. Tracts are not a simple expression of a viewpoint. They are an attempt to recruit people. Children should not be exposed to that, any more than they should be exposed to porn. By the PC reference, I guess what I mean is that most people would give religion the default assumption that it has the moral high ground. Most people will assume that I'm simply trying to be inflamatory by stating that their litarature offends me, while assuming they have good grounds to be offended by me. Don't get me wrong, I don't think most christians have malevolent intent when they place tracts in caches. But I do feel that they are un-aware of the offensive side of their message. I feel that it is completely valid to be personally offended when somebody tells me that I'm an evil sinner. I'm sorry that they have such poor self esteem that they've allowed themselves to be duped by that. But when they tell me I need to be saved, I first have to ask, "from what"? I don't consider myself to be such a base and vile creature that I need saving. That's the message that tracts give under the radar. Overtly they say "we love you and have good news". But subvertly they say "you are a lowly shameful person". That's a statement that I shouldn't have to be exposed to simply because I'm trying to have a fun day of caching. Link to comment
+tozainamboku Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 What would you consider an even trade for tracts? The person who left the tract didn't really intend for you to leave anything in trade. So I guess it would be acceptable to take a tract and leave nothing. They probably would like that you read the tract and maybe even hope that you will be converted to their belief. However it you take one and throw it away, I would say that is an even trade. However if they left 5 copies of the same tract, they probably want 5 different people to them. Now if, like headybrew, you feel the tract is just garbage filling up space in the cache, you could justify taking everything and leaving nothing. Just remember that some people feel that McToys in a cache are junk and could use that excuse to remove all the toys and leave nothing in exchange. I personally think that Where's George dollars are just garbage - besides they say "In God We Trust" on them - so I will just take them from now on and not leave a trade item Link to comment
+Cornerstone4 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 If you don't like 'm, don't take 'em. For probably the only time I can remember, I completely disagree with Auntie Weasel. More completely than you know, then. If you believe they shouldn't be there, I think you should trade them out. I'm so glad 2004 is over. I got really sick of trading for election material. I snagged stuff from both parties. I'm a political partisan, but I didn't think geocaching was the right venue for political agitation. It annoyed me to have to expunge the stuff I agreed with as enthusiastically as the stuff I didn't. This is a nice little hobby. I don't think we should gunk it up with religion or politics. Save that for the drunken family brawl at Thanksgiving, okay? I also feel that it is an ineffective way to spread your message. However...I do leave things behind as sig items, or for that matter, my personal coin. I don't have an issue with that. I also left a copy of "The Purpose Driven Life" in a cache I placed. Link to comment
koz Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Before you can convince me that I need to be saved in the first place, you need to convince me that I am a bad person. I don't believe I'm a bad person. And I'm offended by those tracts, because they are DIRECTLY telling me that I am a bad person. Why else would I need to be saved? SOME christians go around telling us we're evil, we have "sinned" and not only will we burn in hell for eternity, but we fully deserve it because we are such bad creatures... And then they get offended if I disagree? Don't they ever get sick of running around being offended all the time? When is it my turn? The first thing you need to know about being a bad person is that what you believe doesn't matter. You are or you aren't by whatever yardstick is being used regardless of how you feel about yourself. You can be a happy, well adjusted, and fully rationalized truly evil person who feels good about life and themselves. The yardstick society uses is reflected in it's laws. The one christians use is in the bible and so on. There are a lot of yardsticks by which you can measure if a person is good or bad. They tend to have a lot in common but not everthing. The second thing you need to know about right or wrong is that while we as humans have an instinctive grasp of it, you still have to strive for 'perfection' by using an external frame of reference to measure yourself against. The reason is that we are also great at rationalizing what we really want to do and sometimes the waters are murky when we are personally involved. Most all people are shades of gray. Some lighter some darker. Few are truly perfectly good or evil. What defines us to a large extent is which way we stive to achieve even if we fail. As for being saved, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with you being a good or bad person. At least from the christian side of things. I can't speak for other faiths, or even your own redemption in the eyes of humanity. Lastly if you are offended by people of faith practicing their faith as they are supposed to do, and if those people of faith are offended by you disagreeing with their views (aka practicing your competing faith or lack of it) then, neither of you is providing a steller example of how to get along since you are stuck sharing this earth during the living years. Link to comment
koz Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 "The first thing you need to know about being a bad person is that what you believe doesn't matter." You are or you aren't by whatever yardstick is being used regardless of how you feel about yourself. You can be a happy, well adjusted, and fully rationalized truly evil person who feels good about life and themselves. The yardstick society uses is reflected in it's laws. The one christians use is in the bible and so on. There are a lot of yardsticks by which you can measure if a person is good or bad. They tend to have a lot in common but Link to comment
koz Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 "The first thing you need to know about being a bad person is that what you believe doesn't matter." You are or you aren't by whatever yardstick is being used regardless of how you feel about yourself. You can be a happy, well adjusted, and fully rationalized truly evil person who feels good about life and themselves. The yardstick society uses is reflected in it's laws. The one christians use is in the bible and so on. There are a lot of yardsticks by which you can measure if a person is good or bad. They tend to have a lot in common but [/quote ...course this does not apply to existentialists! Link to comment
+Sue Gremlin Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I totally love finding Chick Tracts in caches. If there are a billion of them, I toss them out. If there's one, I trade for it. Those things are awesome reading. Seriously, I get quite angry when people try to push their agenda/opinions/taste in music/hairstyle/brand of coffee, etc on me. This is not restricted to religion. So to an earlier poster, it's not appropriate to put religious, anti-religious, sexual, advertising, or partisan propaganda and/or items in a geocache. At least that's the way I see things in the Gremlin World. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 As for being saved, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with you being a good or bad person. At least from the christian side of things. Which bible have you been reading? Lastly if you are offended by people of faith practicing their faith as they are supposed to do, and if those people of faith are offended by you disagreeing with their views (aka practicing your competing faith or lack of it) then, neither of you is providing a steller example of how to get along since you are stuck sharing this earth during the living years. Well, thank you for being egallitarian. That's a step in the right direction. Perhaps that is partly what I'm trying to articulate with my comment about the PC cops being on their side. It's about the idea that they have a right to feel offended, but I do not. I won't tell them that they can't practice their religion, untill such time as they poke me in the face with it and tell me that I am worthy of burning in hell at the behest of their angry god. That's when I get offended. I feel no lack of "stellar"ness in that stance. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 As for being saved, it actually has nothing whatsoever to do with you being a good or bad person. At least from the christian side of things. Which bible have you been reading? Lastly if you are offended by people of faith practicing their faith as they are supposed to do, and if those people of faith are offended by you disagreeing with their views (aka practicing your competing faith or lack of it) then, neither of you is providing a steller example of how to get along since you are stuck sharing this earth during the living years. Well, thank you for being egallitarian. That's a step in the right direction. Perhaps that is partly what I'm trying to articulate with my comment about the PC cops being on their side. It's about the idea that they have a right to feel offended, but I do not. I won't tell them that they can't practice their religion, untill such time as they poke me in the face with it and tell me that I am worthy of burning in hell at the behest of their angry god. That's when I get offended. I feel no lack of "stellar"ness in that stance. I am truly sorry that this is the type of "Christianity" that you have been exposed to. Link to comment
wandat24 Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 YOU may be offended to find a Bible in a cache and you may think it promotes religion. The next GUY may be offended at a McDonalds toy as he may think it promotes McDonalds. PERSONALLY, I am offended when people put things in there marked www.geocaching.com. I mean, all they are doing is trying to advertlize that Jeremy guy's web site. It wouldn't bother me as much to fina a Bible, as it would the tracts Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I am truly sorry that this is the type of "Christianity" that you have been exposed to. Yup. Just to be clear, I'm not painting all christians with the same brush. Just the ones who evangelize to me. Link to comment
+Vinny & Sue Team Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I am truly sorry that this is the type of "Christianity" that you have been exposed to. Yup. Just to be clear, I'm not painting all christians with the same brush. Just the ones who evangelize to me. And, it is not just some Christians who sometimes evangelize in an offensive (i.e., invasive) way. There are a few Hindu sects, Buddhist sects (albeit a tiny minority), Islamic sects, Jain sects and strange litte odd cults which do the same thing. And, I was once proselytized by self-styled Satanists in the 1970s on a Philadelphia street corner. Link to comment
Proverbs Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 This cracks me up. Freedom of religion except in geocaching? Freedom from religion? Sorry not in the constitution. It's okay if you drop a self help tape in a cache as long as it has nothing to do with religion? It's okay to drop an old music CD in a cache.......as long as it's not Christian music. It's okay to drop just about anything in as long as it doesn't fall under the heading or Pornographic, drug paraphenalia, or religion. Somebody's got to be confused. Dropping a religious tract in a cache is not pushing, poking or recruiting. It's sharing something that someone finds comforting with others. If Joe Bob wants to drop Dr. Phils last episode in a cache I don't have a problem with it. Jerry Springer.........I doubt it. Not much comforting or even positive coming from ol' Jer. If it meets a rule of "decency" then get over it. Nobodies recruiting nor are they pushing anything on you. Please crack open the New Testament and show me the lack of decency that you find so offensive Link to comment
+AuntieWeasel Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 If it meets a rule of "decency" then get over it. Nobodies recruiting nor are they pushing anything on you. Please crack open the New Testament and show me the lack of decency that you find so offensive Ah, the mellifluous voice of Christianity. "Get over it," saith the Lord. It's not a matter of restricting anyone's freedom. There are times and places where people are looking for spiritual information, and geocaching is extremely unlikely to be one of them. I'm not offended so much as embarrassed for people who have a faulty understanding of the appropriate. It's like watching a kid pitch a complete tantrum in a restaurant. That kind of embarrassment. Or that guy who gave out apples and "healthy snacks" at Hallowe'en. Didn't you hate that guy? It's not that you had anything against apples under ordinary circumstances, it's that he didn't get the whole spirit of the holiday. And that was such a downer. Link to comment
+erikwillke Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Oh, well. Religious tracts: just more spam trying to sell people stuff they don't want to buy. Since you brought up the free market..... I put a "Tracts R Us" store in the mall just inside the only entrance. You have to go past my store to get to "Farbucks" coffeeshop. Am I pushing my religion on you? Or am I offering a service to all who want it? You have the choice to walk in or walk by. Are you(not you AW, hypothetical You) going to complain to the mall management that you think the store in the front is pushing their beliefs on you? No, you are going to walk right on by to get what you want. I wish Ambercrombie wouldn't put porn on their walls for my 5 year old to see as we are walking by the store. But they do. so what do I do? I try to take a different way. Point of the story is it is only pushing a religion on you if to satisfy the requirement of the cache you have to actualy read the tract and answer questions. Since you don't you can just ignore it like you would ignore the stupid plastic beads or the 2cent pins. JMHBAO erikwillke Link to comment
+team moxiepup Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I haven't run across any tracts yet, but my reaction would depend upon the tract. If it were simply a positive, non-finger pointing messege (God is Love... etc.) I wouldn't particularily care. Not something I would do, or particualrily like to see, but that's life. If the tract were judgemental and spreading intolerance, I would probably remove the tract. I would then leave an item, as we often do when we find a cache that has few items of worth in it, just to leave it better for the next cacher. I wouldn't consider the transaction a trade. If the cache were completely stuffed full of either sort of tract, I would remove them, because that sort of thing does nothing to improve the cache. Again, I would then leave an item. TNLS. It would be curious to know if the people who put these items in caches, traded up or even. If these things are as inexpensive as people have stated... Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I put a "Tracts R Us" store in the mall just inside the only entrance. You have to go past my store to get to "Farbucks" coffeeshop. Am I pushing my religion on you? Or am I offering a service to all who want it? You have the choice to walk in or walk by. Are you(not you AW, hypothetical You) going to complain to the mall management that you think the store in the front is pushing their beliefs on you? No, you are going to walk right on by to get what you want. Not the same. With your hypothetical store, it's not *in* the farbucks, and your not passing me a tract along with my venti nowhipped extra cafe mocha latte. Now here's a what if question that is obvious to ask, and has been asked, but is usually ignored as a rhetorical comment. But how about somebody actually takes it seriously and answers it... What if someone put literature promoting a homo-sexual lifestyle in a cache, and your kid found it before you did and started looking at the cute little cartoons? How would you feel? Link to comment
+NotNutts Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 This cracks me up. Freedom of religion except in geocaching? Freedom from religion? Sorry not in the constitution. It's okay if you drop a self help tape in a cache as long as it has nothing to do with religion? It's okay to drop an old music CD in a cache.......as long as it's not Christian music. It's okay to drop just about anything in as long as it doesn't fall under the heading or Pornographic, drug paraphenalia, or religion. Somebody's got to be confused. Dropping a religious tract in a cache is not pushing, poking or recruiting. It's sharing something that someone finds comforting with others. If Joe Bob wants to drop Dr. Phils last episode in a cache I don't have a problem with it. Jerry Springer.........I doubt it. Not much comforting or even positive coming from ol' Jer. If it meets a rule of "decency" then get over it. Nobodies recruiting nor are they pushing anything on you. Please crack open the New Testament and show me the lack of decency that you find so offensive Well said. All the 'offending" being done tells me the tracts are doing their job. Maybe I will start leaving some! It seems that some folks misunderstand some basic Christian doctrine. The Bible teaches we are all (including Christians) sinners. This is in comparison to a perfect God. I believe that if anyone searches themselves, they'd find this true. How is this more offensive than a 'nobody's perfekt!' bumper sticker. Being 'saved' is just means not going to hell, not that you're perfect. Basic Christian doctrine states that to be saved, you need to: A- Admit you're a sinner (not perfekt) B- believe Jesus died for your sins C- Confess your sins (imperfekshuns) to him and ask him into your life I realize this whole idea really gets under people's skin. Thats one more reason why I believe it. P.S.- Auntieweasel- I enjoyed your website, despite our apparent philosophical differences. While your sarcastic sense of humor sometimes comes across as condescending in the forums, it was hilarious on your website. BTW, I was kind-of raised by hippies, too. I remember my mom and her friend cracking up when I asked her why her cigarette smelled funny! Link to comment
+erikwillke Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I know that christians have the PC cops on their side, but I feel that my feelings are equally valid here. There tracts directly tell me that I am evil and in need of salvation. I don't like being told that I am a bad person. I shouldn't have to see that in caches, and I don't like the idea of children being told that either. #1. Christians are the last people to have the PC police on our side. If that were true we would still have prayer in schools, Under God in the Pledge of Allegiance(sp?), Ten Commandments on county property, and smut off of primetime television. #2. Your "feelings" don't matter, Neither do mine or anyone elses. You don't like being told something. Well, let me tell ya... I don't like being told to drive the speed limit. I don't like being told to pay my taxes. I don't like being told that I need to do everything my boss expects me to do to keep my job. What does that add up to? Nothing. What I like or dislike means nothing. There is a set truth that no matter how I feel about it, it is still true. (just re-read it, sounds mean but it truely is not meant to be mean, just direct) #3. As for the kids. I may be wrong but I don't think you have kids of your own. I would hope you would think more about what is good for them then what makes them feel good. JMHBAO erikwillke Link to comment
+Team Teuton Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I think Chick tracts were the impetus for CITOs. Link to comment
+AuntieWeasel Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I think Chick tracts were the impetus for CITOs. Actually, I used to collect those. Not for any reason Jack Chick would be proud of, though. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Ever notice how the OP's start this type of carp and then disapear into the vapor? This guy would be proud: Ivan Petrovich Pavlov I am amazed, myself: why is it that forum threads about gays, guns, religion, and "DO.NOT.ACCEPT.FOOD.FROM.THE.PIG" quickly grow into three-plus pages overnite, while threads about wholesome fun topics such as hamster swap caches, ragdoll cat adoption caches, and space-alien-abductee rendezvous caches just wither on the vine? That durned pig. Link to comment
+erikwillke Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 [quote name='headybrew' date='May 17 2006, 11:07 AM' post='2220094' Tracts are not a simple expression of a viewpoint. They are an attempt to recruit people. You are ABSOLUTELY right. And I do not apologize for it. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 It seems that some folks misunderstand some basic Christian doctrine. The Bible teaches we are all (including Christians) sinners. This is in comparison to a perfect God. I believe that if anyone searches themselves, they'd find this true. How is this more offensive than a 'nobody's perfekt!' bumper sticker. You are making my point. I find it offensive for you to tell me that I am a sinner. Youre Bible claims that I was born a sinner and always will be. If you want to tell your children that, then go for it. But I'd rather build self esteem than break the poor kids down. Doesn't anyone understand that? The "glad tidings" are only glad if you first are convinced that you are a base and nasty creature in the first place. Breaking you down is the first thin any cult must do before they can get you vulnerable enough to fall for the next step, which is the susposedly glad tidings of salvation from their broken state. Stop putting that filth in caches that children could see. These kind of "under the radar" messages are bad for us. Put them in your own cache and let your kids find it. Don't put them in a cach I might be subjected to. Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 It seems that some folks misunderstand some basic Christian doctrine. The Bible teaches we are all (including Christians) sinners. This is in comparison to a perfect God. I believe that if anyone searches themselves, they'd find this true. How is this more offensive than a 'nobody's perfekt!' bumper sticker. You are making my point. I find it offensive for you to tell me that I am a sinner. Youre Bible claims that I was born a sinner and always will be. If you want to tell your children that, then go for it. But I'd rather build self esteem than break the poor kids down. Doesn't anyone understand that? The "glad tidings" are only glad if you first are convinced that you are a base and nasty creature in the first place. Breaking you down is the first thin any cult must do before they can get you vulnerable enough to fall for the next step, which is the susposedly glad tidings of salvation from their broken state. Stop putting that filth in caches that children could see. These kind of "under the radar" messages are bad for us. Put them in your own cache and let your kids find it. Don't put them in a cach I might be subjected to. The definition of "sin" is not "bad person". It simply means being seperated from God. I really don't think that teaching that to my kids is filth, or cultish, or hurting their self esteem. Link to comment
+CYBret Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Is this issue any closer to getting resolved this time than any of the other bazillion times it's been debated here? Let's give it a rest. Agree to disagree...heck, disagree to disagree, I don't care....but you're not solving anything and scant little of this seems to be about geocaching anymore. Bret Link to comment
+Ambrosia Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 But I digress. This feels off topic to me, this is a discussion of religion, and not of religious tracts in caches. Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 You are making my point. I find it offensive for you to tell me that I am a sinner. Youre Bible claims that I was born a sinner and always will be. If you want to tell your children that, then go for it. But I'd rather build self esteem than break the poor kids down. Doesn't anyone understand that? The "glad tidings" are only glad if you first are convinced that you are a base and nasty creature in the first place. Breaking you down is the first thin any cult must do before they can get you vulnerable enough to fall for the next step, which is the susposedly glad tidings of salvation from their broken state. Stop putting that filth in caches that children could see. These kind of "under the radar" messages are bad for us. Put them in your own cache and let your kids find it. Don't put them in a cach I might be subjected to. Yep, from here on out there will be no more tracts put in caches. Glad this is the last posting on this topic. Link to comment
+Miragee Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 If you cache in Utah, expect to find the Book of Mormon, not just tracts, in the caches . . . Link to comment
+erikwillke Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Not the same. With your hypothetical store, it's not *in* the farbucks, and your not passing me a tract along with my venti nowhipped extra cafe mocha latte. You lost the analogy. the farbucks is the logbook, the mall is the cache Now here's a what if question that is obvious to ask, and has been asked, but is usually ignored as a rhetorical comment. But how about somebody actually takes it seriously and answers it... What if someone put literature promoting a homo-sexual lifestyle in a cache, and your kid found it before you did and started looking at the cute little cartoons? How would you feel? If it is the same generic and non-pronographic cartoons that are in the tract (i.e. two men holding hands or kissing) and my son were reading it I would calmly explain to him Homosexuality to him the best I could. If the cartoons were pornographic then there is no comparison, it would be smut just like a Hustler. I have no problem with homosexuals. I think it is wrong and I don't want my children to be homosexual but if they did or my dad went gay (or mom, not to exclude anyone) I would still love them. I don't personally tell any homosexual they are wrong. I try to introduce them to Jesus. I let Him take care of that. Link to comment
+BlueDeuce Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 Again If you don't like it, remove it. If you think it is worthless, trade nothing and you have traded even. Trade even, Trade up, or don't trade at all. Link to comment
+headybrew Posted May 17, 2006 Share Posted May 17, 2006 I don't personally tell any homosexual they are wrong. I try to introduce them to Jesus. I let Him take care of that. Ah, yes, the other cop-out evangelists use so often. "I won't tell you you are wrong. I let jesus do that for me." Even if you let your god do the judging, you are still judging. You've really exposed your true colors in this thread. You've basically admitted, even reveled in the idea that your tracts are offensive, claiming that it's a sign that they're working. You've openly said you don't care, and you've openly said you plan to keep pushing your views on others even if they don't want them. What more needs to be said? Bottom line for me, If I find your trash in a cache, I'll use it for toilet paper or fire tinder or something. No trade items necessary. Link to comment
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