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Shades Of Gray.


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there are actual ligitimate armchair caches? or are you just saying there are some viturals that can be googled?

 

If there are some legitimate ones, would you mind sharing one so i could at least check it out?

 

Apologizing in advance for the slight tangent, here is my reply: There are over a hundred armchair caches; almost all have very specific requirements, aka prerequisites, for filing a find log. If you search on the forums for the word "armchair", you will find several threads which provide links to bookmark lists of armchair caches around the world.

Edited by Vinny & Sue Team
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The last couple event's I have went to had event caches. They had logbooks and we signed them just like a normal find. So I had no choice but to sign them on the event page. We are still fairly new and I had no idea how hot of a topic this was. I tried to post about each cache and not just do a random copy and paste thing like I read someone say. So I guess that means some people would say I was wrong to do that?

 

I'm confused.

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The last couple event's I have went to had event caches. They had logbooks and we signed them just like a normal find. So I had no choice but to sign them on the event page. We are still fairly new and I had no idea how hot of a topic this was. I tried to post about each cache and not just do a random copy and paste thing like I read someone say. So I guess that means some people would say I was wrong to do that?

 

I'm confused.

 

No need to be confused. This thread is just for that- letting others know how you do things. It's not for any one person to judge how another person does things. That is for other threads.

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Okay, speaking for myself, here is how I consistently choose to deal with these situations. My wife Sue seems to share rather similar values, but she may choose to post her own list, if her choices differ somewhat from mine. Here goes:

 

* Fake Finds: No.

* Log Finds on My Own Caches: No. Well, not unless it got moved over 500 feet and I had to go find it! Has never happened yet!

* Log finds when I was with hider while hidden: No. Never done it, although I can think of rare circumstances where it might be okay for me.

* Tried Hard but Could Not Find Cache, But Sure That I Was Near or At Hide Site: No. Never.

* Cache Listed Only on Another Site, but Claim Find at GC.COM Via Any of Various Games/Tricks: No.

* Found Cache Missing, and Replaced: If logbook was in place, of course I would log a find as I replaced the cache container and performed maintenance. However, if logbook was missing also, almost always NO, but I can conceive of situations where I might do so, if asked by owner to do maintenance. Have never done so yet.

* Missing/Owner Permission: No. In fact, we have turned down several such offers.

* Could Not Find, But Owner Permission: Almost identical to an above category. No. No. No.

* Mystery or Puzzle Cache w/o Solving: Yes, so long as I legitimately found the cache, i.e., via a brute-force search or via use of "psychic abilities", if the cache owner permitted the find claim, but that would be rare. I have never done this yet.

* Bonus Finds: No, unless the bonus cache is fully listed as a separate cache at gc.com and I managed to find it also and sign the logbook.

* Moved Cache or Multi-cache With a Newly-Added Stage: Usually NO, but if the move or added stage changed it significantly, and if the owner invited second finds after the change, and I re-found the cache, then yes. In fact, we invited past finders on one of our extreme caches to find it again and log a new find after we had added a nasty stage. It worked out well for everyone!

* Pocket Caches and Temporary Event Finds Passed Around At Events or Parties, Which Would Inolve Logging Multiple "Attended" Logs for the Event: No. No. NO!

* Retirement Caches, Where the Cache Was Long Ago Removed and Archived, and Does Not Exist in the Hide Spot Anymore, but Where the Owner Has Permitted Remote "Retirement Finds": No. No. No. No!

* Multiple Event Finds: No. NO!

* Group Finds: This depends entirely upon the circumstances. If I was with a large group at an event, and we all stumbled on the cache, then usually yes, but this is very rare in our history.

* Armchair Caches, Where the Cache is Listed at GC.COM, and the Finder Must Perform Certain Tasks and Comply With Certain Armchair Requirements: Yes. Two or three of our finds are very good armchair caches, and they were much fun! However, we have, as noted, very few of this type of find!

* Locationless: Yes, but they are not a favorite. Very few of these, and each of these finds were Sue's, not mine.

* Virtuals: Yes, but they are not a favorite. Very few of these, and each of these finds were Sue's, not mine.

* Events: Yes, but one "attended" log only. No more than one!

* Logging a false find: No.

* Moving (dropping/grabbing) a TB or Geocoin at a cache I have not physically found: No. No! Of course, I am not into either TBs or geocoins, and I truly would not recognize either type of creature if it bit me! (Now, my wife Sue is addicted to both of these types of objects, and it all mystifies me!)

* Filing a DNF Religiously When I Search Adequately But Fail to Find a Cache: Yes, every time. I put as much heart and care into my DNF logs and notes as I do into my find logs. (I think that Sue may be way more brief than I am with all types of logs, including find logs.)

Edited by Vinny & Sue Team
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simplest answer - if I find a cache with a logbook (or not, in the cases of virtuals, etc), and I feel like I found a physical cache, then I go by the owner's preferences. If they say "this is for one smilie, and this + this is for two smilies" (etc etc) then I would log it as such. My decision is based on physcial caches, not GC#s. So, if somehow one physical cache had 2 GC#'s, I'd only log it for one smilie. If two physical caches have 1 GC#, and if the owner is fine with multiple found logs, then ok.

 

* Fake Finds: No.

* Log Finds on My Own Caches: No. (unless adopted the cache - I wouldn't go back and delete a find from before I adopted it)

* Log finds when I was with hider while hidden: No - not even several months later, unless it moves and I honestly have to find it. That's what the ignore option is for.

* Tried Hard but Could Not Find Cache, But Sure That I Was Near or At Hide Site: No.

* Cache Listed Only on Another Site, but Claim Find at GC.COM: No.

* Found Cache Missing, and Replaced: Yes, but only if I was 100% sure that I had the cache site correct (i.e., verified by owner) and that the owner wanted it replaced. Hasn't come up

* Missing/Owner Permission: Yes, if 100% sure (i.e., verified by owner) that I was at groundzero. But I will not log it as found until the owner has either a) replaced the cache, B ) archived the cache, or c) temporarily disabled the cache.

* Mystery or Puzzle Cache w/o Solving: yes, if I felt that I had found the final stage - not if someone said "hey, the last stage to ___ is under that log" (then again, I tend to avoid puzzle caches)

*Multi-cache without finding all stages: yes, if I found the final stage; even if I skipped past stage 3 and found stage 4 instead (some multi's have very short gaps between stages!)

* Bonus Finds: unsure - as far as I know, we don't have bonus caches in this area. However, my general rule is to go by the cache owners preferences - if they said this is worth a second smilie, I likely would be ok with it.

* Moved Cache or Multi-cache With a Newly-Added Stage: Hasn't come up, but it would depend on the cache owners preference - if they state that they are allowing new smilies, then yes.

* Pocket Caches - logged on an archived cache: No.

* Retirement Caches - logged as an archived cache: No.

* Pocket Caches - if logged as a multiple event attended log: Unsure - were there coordiantes involved, or an offset style search, or a puzzle cache style search?? If so, then yes. If it's just saying hi to people and asking if they have a cache in their pocket? No.

* Retirement caches - if logged as a mutiple event attended log (is this possible? or am I making up an option): See last line for pocket caches.

* Multiple Event Finds: Yes. (if host/hostess says its ok)

* Group Finds: Yes. I do almost all of my caching with my husband, and we have separate accounts (and a few different finds between the two of us). Yes, we work together to find the caches, but we still are finding them.

* Armchair Caches: I'm fine with others logging them. not interested myself

* Locationless: Yes.

* Virtuals: Yes.

* Events: Yes!

* Earthcaches: Yes Yes! my favorite caches were both earthcaches.

 

edit: apparently a) , b ), etc lists make smileys :(

Edited by Beffums
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Okay, as for a perspective here is possibly a new look on this already talked about topic of temporary caches (I am referring to temporary cache hides, not pocket caches). There are people who argue here stating they should not be allowed, even though there is no specific rule against it on GC.com. This past weekend while attending an event two instances came to mind where GC.com perhaps should relook at these caches.

 

1. Many of the temporary caches were clos"er" together than typical cache locations, this made it very easy for the several handicapped people attending the event to enjoy geocaching as well, one of whom was wheelchair bound. The first event I went to, I also saw 2 cars with disabled plates that were participating in the events. I could see how it would be much easier to do these for a physically challenged person rather than reloading a wheelchair in a car, etc...

 

2. In Wisconsin (not sure if it is the same in other states), state park hides are not currently allowed unless they have been grandfathered in. This was an awesome opportunity to see the parks - through many different types of terrian that normally most people would not do or even go to see. By WI having the rule of no permanent caches in these beautiful locations, it also preserves the environment from caches which are not maintained. After the event, they are cleaned up and gone.

 

3. If someone really wants to know how many caches were temporary or "real" finds, simply go one page past the events page (it will show how many events) and it lists regular caches (with a smilie) versus attended an event. A new category here would help define things a bit better.

 

I hope this adds a little thought for those who are maybe thinking a little bit too "inside the box" no pun intended, about how finds are logged and that there are other people who's needs are perhaps not the same as yours (elderly, handicapped, parents with very small children) :(

Edited by lonesumdove
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My opinion, for what it's worth (which, quite honestly, is nothing):

 

Fake Finds -- Never

Log Finds on My Own Caches -- Never, unless it was an adopted cache (which I have never done)

Log finds when I was with hider while hidden -- Never, that's not a find.

Tried Hard but Could Not Find Cache, But Sure That I Was Near or At Hide Site -- Never

Cache Listed Only on Another Site, but Claim Find at GC.COM -- Not even sure how to do this, so no.

Found Cache Missing, and Replaced -- Nope, you can't find a missing cache.

Missing/Owner Permission -- No. If the cache is replaced, I will make the trip back out to find it for real.

Mystery or Puzzle Cache w/o Solving -- On 2 instances I have done this, but only because I was caching with someone who had solved the puzzle. I still went and solved the puzzle on my own afterwards though. I enjoy "assistance" in solving the puzzles, but really want to figure them out for myself.

Multi-cache without finding all stages -- if you can figure the multi out without all those steps in between, I say yes. As long as you found the final and signed a log book yes.

Bonus Finds -- if the cache owner allows it, yes. I've done multis that allow logging for each stage. There has been a cache and log book at each stage.

Moved Cache or Multi-cache With a Newly-Added Stage -- if allowed by the cache owner, yes. Also, it would have to be a cache area that I want to visit again for reasons other than just a smiley.

Pocket Caches - logged on an archived cache -- No.

Retirement Caches - logged as an archived cache -- No.

Pocket Caches - if logged as a multiple event attended log -- had done this in the past, but decided not to do it anymore. I'm also going back and changing all those finds to notes.

Retirement caches - if logged as a mutiple event attended log -- never encountered this, but no.

Multiple Event Finds -- if allowed by the event host, yes. I stopped doing this a little while ago, and am not changing all my temporary finds into notes.

Group Finds -- yes. I prefer the finder's tree method (everyone must spot the cache independently before it is retrieved) but if another cacher is really excited and calls the hootie and grabs the cache, I'll still log it.

Armchair Caches -- never done one, but have no problem with anyone logging them.

Locationless -- I did a couple in the past and they were fun. No problem with them.

Virtuals: Yes. I love "most" virtuals.

Events: Yes, although I feel that there should be a separate find count for temporaries at events. But again, I could care less if someone wants to log temporary finds. I just don't do it anymore.

Earthcaches -- yes. These were a neat feature.

 

Bec

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BTW, here’s how I cache:

 

Logging false finds: no.

 

Logging a find because you ‘tried’: no, that’s a DNF.

 

Logging a find on a GC.com cache for a cache you found listed on another site: no, log it there and use another site (such as Keenpeople) to keep a total tally.

 

Logging a find on a missing cache you replaced: no, that’s a DNF at best and possibly an SBA if the situation warrants it.

 

Logging a find on a missing cache, owner says it’s OK: I did it once, it was one of my first 10 finds. I’ve never done it since and won’t do so in the future.

 

Logging a find on a multi cache if you didn’t do all the work (not finding all the stages, someone else did or you just get lucky and find it): Sure, as long as the owner says it’s OK.

 

Logging a find on a mystery/puzzle cache if you didn’t do all the work (not finding all the stages, someone else did the puzzle or you just get lucky and find it): Sure, as long as the owner says it’s OK.

 

Logging additional find for ‘bonus’ given by the owner: no, one cache, one find.

 

Logging additional find because cache was moved or altered: no, one cache, one find.

 

Logging additional finds because cache has more than one stage and owner says it’s OK: no, one cache, one find.

 

Logging pocket caches (not listed anywhere): no, no cache page, nowhere to log it. Use another site (such as Keenpeople) to keep a total tally.

 

Logging pocket caches (a previously listed cache): no.

 

Logging ‘retirement’ cache: no.

 

Logging temporary event caches (either on the event page or another, permanent cache that the owner says you can log them on): no, no cache page, nowhere to log it. Use another site (such as Keenpeople) to keep a total tally.

 

Logging multiple finds on a moving cache: no, one cache, one find.

 

Logging a cache you found with a group: yes.

 

Logging one find for a cache listed on this (or any other) site: yes. I did log an event twice- there were two distinct locations for it, miles apart but from what I was told they were not allowed to list 2 different events for some reason. Don’t know that I’d ever do it again tho.

 

Logging ‘arm chair’ caches: no. I did do one LC (Radio KAOS) that was possibly the prototype tho.

 

Logging locationless caches: yes.

 

Logging virtuals: yes.

 

Logging earthcaches: yes.

 

Logging webcams: yes.

 

Logging events: yes.

 

Logging your own cache (including events): no, you already get credit for the hide.

 

 

Respond to as many or as few as you’d like. If there is a situation I’ve missed, feel free to add it.

 

Once again: please keep replies on topic and only voice your own opinions- don’t comment on anyone elses. If you think this thread is useless, that’s not the topic here, start your own thread.

 

Edited to seperate and clarify the multi/mystery finds.

 

That covers the subject for me, totally agree with all the above!

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1. Many of the temporary caches were clos"er" together than typical cache locations, this made it very easy for the several handicapped people attending the event to enjoy geocaching as well, one of whom was wheelchair bound. The first event I went to, I also saw 2 cars with disabled plates that were participating in the events. I could see how it would be much easier to do these for a physically challenged person rather than reloading a wheelchair in a car, etc...

 

Yes Exactly! It's a great chance to grab a bunch of caches in the same place. My son is physcially handicapped. Maybe there really could be an event cache catagory setup but I don't know how much work this would be. Thank you lonesumdove for putting the words better than me.

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My primary difference from most of the other opinions is that I will log a moved cache if it has moved far enough to really be a different cache. A cache that moved around a 1/10 of a mile or so I would consider the same cache and NOT log it a second time. A cache that has moved 10 miles isn't really the same cache anymore.

 

I wish cache owners wouldn't move a cache many miles and not make a new listing for it and archive the old cache location/cache listing.

 

I'm rarely part of a group looking for a cache and when I have been, I've either been first to find it or spotted the cache at the same time someone else did; so I've usually not had to "worry" about that situation. If I were part of a group, I would hope that anyone else finding it first would not give the location away so that I would also have a chance at finding it. I'm really there for the challenge of the find not the find count. That being said, because caching is just a pastime for fun, because I'm not really serious about it, I would probably log a find when in a group if I were not the finder, but it is less of a find to me. I don't really care how others in a group handle it.

 

Bottom line: I can't know where it is before I find it and when found, I have earned a find. That means if I am with someone hiding a cache and I know where they hid it, I can't find it. My own caches are an exception to this rule - if it was moved by someone else and I had to hunt for it, I do NOT log a find (but I have said so in a note :( ).

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The topic is pretty simple for me, as I usually cache alone. So I either find the cache or I don't. If I find it, and it is recognized, at the time, by GC.com, then I log it. So:

 

Locationless: Yes, before they went away.

Events: Yes.

Virtuals: Yes.

Webcams: Yes - when I finally find one that works and if it is still valid...

Earthcaches: Not yet.

 

or to follow the current approved cache types: (Stolen from GC.com)

Cache Types

Traditional Cache

Multi-Cache (offset Cache)

Letterbox Hybrid

Event Cache

Mystery or puzzle caches

 

Grandfathered Cache Types

These are cache types that are no longer available for creation on geocaching.com. Visit the Waymarking web site for other GPS hunting activities. now considered waymarks on Waymarking.com.

 

Virtual Cache

Webcam Cache

Locationless (Reverse) Cache

Earthcache

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:( I could agree with the majority of listings, and probably don't have major heartburn with any. Here's another thing to add to the list.

 

Using a lifeline - calling the owner or previous finder for extra hints or in some cases just being told where it's at.

 

We've had some local squabbles over cache find counts lately, which has resulted in a lot of soul searching on my part. Although I've done this on a few caches (less than 1.0% of my finds) I have decided to never do it again.

 

I'm leaning more and more to the purist in my logs.

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Ahhh... Been caching for over a year now, yet this is my first post, surprisingly enough. Be gentle.

 

Fake finds: Of course not

Dnf=find: Of course not. I will qualify that one time in my memory, I was out with the owner of a cache and put my hand in the hidey hole and came up empty. He looked at me in disbelief, replaced the cache, I logged it.

Earthcache, virtual, locationless, webcam: yeah, sure

Found partial container: Found lid with cache name and printed GC disclaimer and found baggie with log, nothing else - logged both but that's not a rule. I would not try to log a hook, film cap, fishing line, toy on the ground etc. I'm not a white knight apparently, but I keep a high personal standard.

Bonus caches: This one surprised me by the vehemence. According to Fizzymagic's parser I've done 15 caches with bonus finds. None of these were free smilies. they all were coordinates to an extra cache or extra log sheets in stages, and all were specified on the cache listing by the owner.

Pocket caches:no

Moved caches:no

Wasn't there=log:no

Armchair:no I wasn't even aware that there was a whole subset of these till now. Did the Radio KAOS locationless and thought it was an interesting novelty. I'd be against them as a whole.

Multiple event logs:no But, something should be provided to track them. I have been to this style event and they are not logging free-for-alls. The hides were generally quite good and better than a day of skirtlifters. I'd like people to be able to see my event finds on a GC profile. Until then, just one little smiling couple for each event attended.

Moving caches: haven't done one yet. Once I do, it's been found. No extra logs.

 

Interesting thread. Thanks.

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Own Caches: No.

Tried Hard: No.

Another Site: No.

Missing/Replaced: No.

Missing/Owner Permission: No.

Mystery w/o Solving: Only if I was with someone way smarter than me and they did the work. Then it is like caching in a group

Moved Cache: No.

Pocket Caches: No. I used to but I had a change of heart and deleted all of those finds

Retirement Cache: Have no idea what that is

Multiple Event Finds: No.

Group Finds: If I sign the log it is a find

Locationless: I was able to log one before they were moved. It was an aproved cache so I logged it.

Events: Yes.

Virtuals: Yes.

Webcams: Yes.

Earthcaches: Yes.

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Just a quick note for those wondering what a retirement cache, sometimes known as a "retirement card" or "retirement clause" find is, well, here goes. . . To my best understanding (and I have geo friends and acquaintances who have done this) a retirement cache is a cache that was once a real cache listed at geocaching.com, but which has long been archived, often because it turned up missing or was otherwise disabled. At some point after the cache is long gone from its hiding spot and the listing at gc.com has been archived or disabled (or both), a cache owner will decide to let geo friends and acquaintances log (spurious) "finds" for the "cache" on the old cache listing page, and the explanation offered for this behavior is that it is a "retired cache", and so they (the owner) are allowing "retirement finds" or taking advantage of a so-called (and entirely mythical) "retirement clause". :smile::):D

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* Fake Finds: No.

* Own Caches: No, except for moving caches if the owner didn't place it at the current location. Also, I didn't have a problem with an LC owner logging his own cache if he was either out of his home area or the LC had been established for a while. Neither reason is valid anymore, I guess.

* Tried Hard: No.

* Another Site: No.

* Missing/Replaced: No.

* Missing/Owner Permission: No.

* Mystery w/o Solving: Yes, if I found the cache and signed the log.

* Bonus Finds: No.

* Moved Cache: Yes, if it was substantially different.

* Pocket Caches: No.

* Retirement Cache: No.

* Multiple Event Finds: No.

* Group Finds: No.

* Armchair Caches: No. (Although I have logged one.)

* Locationless: Yes.

* Events: Yes, but I almost never go to them.

* Virtuals: Yes.

* Webcams: Yes.

* Earthcaches: Yes.

* With another cacher when he hid it: Yes, if I Beta tested it.

* Logging a TB or coin just because I saw it: No.

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I just remembered a somewhat-related story. Some time ago, I found a micro cache that had a number of DNFs and then a few finds. From the logs, it appears that it was assumed lost and that a finder dropped a film can at the spot that they were told was where the cache should be - a rotton hole at the case of a tree.

 

From old logs, it was clear (to me) that the original cache was supposed to have been hanging. As it turned out, the original micro was still present, secured to a string inside the opening, about two inches above the replacement.

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I just remembered a somewhat-related story. Some time ago, I found a micro cache that had a number of DNFs and then a few finds. From the logs, it appears that it was assumed lost and that a finder dropped a film can at the spot that they were told was where the cache should be - a rotton hole at the case of a tree.

 

From old logs, it was clear (to me) that the original cache was supposed to have been hanging. As it turned out, the original micro was still present, secured to a string inside the opening, about two inches above the replacement.

 

I've seen situations like that more than a few times, on the trails and here in the forums. That's why I don't replace a cache if I haven't found the cache. I have replaced 3 caches. 2 were at the request of the hider, who was with me at the time, and the other was a small tube micro that got destroyed by a lawn mower, which I replaced with one of my sig items. Sometimes the replacement cache is a micro and the original may have been a regular, quite a big difference- especially in a wooded area.

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