Jump to content

"improve Stability When Using Lithium Ion Battery", In Versoin 2.70, Huh?


Recommended Posts

Has anyone noticed the description of one fix in Garmin's new version 2.70 firmware update as supposedly being:

"Improve stability when using Lithium Ion Battery".

When has anyone started making lithium ion AA's? I am familiar with the lithium AA's but never heard of a lithium ion AA.

Link to comment

Probably a poor choice of words by the non-battery guy who wrote the readme file. There is indeed a new choice for battery type - Lithium - to go along with Alkaline and NiMH in the System Setup menu. This is probably intended for consumer LiMnO2 AA cells, not necessarily a Li-ion rechargable pack.

Link to comment

Probably a poor choice of words by the non-battery guy who wrote the readme file. There is indeed a new choice for battery type - Lithium - to go along with Alkaline and NiMH in the System Setup menu. This is probably intended for consumer LiMnO2 AA cells, not necessarily a Li-ion rechargable pack.

 

But the actual choice shown within the GPSr itself says "Lithium Ion".

Link to comment

But the actual choice shown within the GPSr itself says "Lithium Ion".

 

Hmmm... I didn't see the "ion" part when I checked, but then again, I only checked to make sure that my settings were still set to NiMH after updating.

 

I just sent off an email to Garmin to see if they support using rechargable Li-Ion CR-V3 batteries in their units now...

Link to comment

But the actual choice shown within the GPSr itself says "Lithium Ion".

 

Hmmm... I didn't see the "ion" part when I checked, but then again, I only checked to make sure that my settings were still set to NiMH after updating.

 

I just sent off an email to Garmin to see if they support using rechargable Li-Ion CR-V3 batteries in their units now...

Hi, I don't know much about CR-V3 cells, but can you help me out with an answer to this:

I have NiMH's with 2900 mAh.

The highest CR-V3 I found at a web-shop has 1500 mAh.

Wouldn't that mean that the GPS would only be online approx. 50% of the time than with my NiMH's, so e.g. only 10 hours instead of 20 ?

If yes, what is the advantage of a Li-ION cell ? (My Ni-MH's work also very well in the cold).

Thanks for any info, NZ

Link to comment

But the actual choice shown within the GPSr itself says "Lithium Ion".

 

Hmmm... I didn't see the "ion" part when I checked, but then again, I only checked to make sure that my settings were still set to NiMH after updating.

 

I just sent off an email to Garmin to see if they support using rechargable Li-Ion CR-V3 batteries in their units now...

Hi, I don't know much about CR-V3 cells, but can you help me out with an answer to this:

I have NiMH's with 2900 mAh.

The highest CR-V3 I found at a web-shop has 1500 mAh.

Wouldn't that mean that the GPS would only be online approx. 50% of the time than with my NiMH's, so e.g. only 10 hours instead of 20 ?

If yes, what is the advantage of a Li-ION cell ? (My Ni-MH's work also very well in the cold).

Thanks for any info, NZ

 

 

Wow, where did you find 2900mAh NiMH batteries? the highest mAh I've heard of is 2650's!

Link to comment
The Cr-V3 Li-Ion battery runs 3.6 Volts, so a 1500 mAh battery of this type is the same capacity as a 4500 mAh, 1.2 V Ni-mH battery.

Remember these Cr-V3 cells replaces 2 AA cells.

Oh, so that would be great, if Garmin really support them now in 2.70.

Thanks for the info.

 

Wow, where did you find 2900mAh NiMH batteries? the highest mAh I've heard of is 2650's!
Here: http://www.accushop.at/product_info.php?products_id=3733

But as I see, they ran out of stock and can ship new ones not before end of may. So I was lucky to get mine already 3 weeks ago. ;)

Edited by NewZealand
Link to comment
The Cr-V3 Li-Ion battery runs 3.6 Volts, so a 1500 mAh battery of this type is the same capacity as a 4500 mAh, 1.2 V Ni-mH battery.

Remember these Cr-V3 cells replaces 2 AA cells.

Oh, so that would be great, if Garmin really support them now in 2.70.

Good, but probably not "great" since it's still less capacity than offered by current NiMH cells. Afterall, the RCR-V3 cells (CR-V3 are the *non-rechargeable* version) replace two NiMH cells, so the equivalent capacity per cell is 4500/2 = 2250 mA-hr which is not very high by today's NiMH standards. OTOH the Li+ RCR-V3 cells do have a number of advantages: lighter weight, long shelf-life, and better low temperature performance.

 

Has anyone tried these cells in a 60C/CS or 60C/CSx model? They fit in many devices that run on a pair of side-by-side AA cells but some battery compartments aren't compatible with them.

Link to comment

But the actual choice shown within the GPSr itself says "Lithium Ion".

 

Hmmm... I didn't see the "ion" part when I checked, but then again, I only checked to make sure that my settings were still set to NiMH after updating.

 

I just sent off an email to Garmin to see if they support using rechargable Li-Ion CR-V3 batteries in their units now...

Hi, I don't know much about CR-V3 cells, but can you help me out with an answer to this:

I have NiMH's with 2900 mAh.

The highest CR-V3 I found at a web-shop has 1500 mAh.

Wouldn't that mean that the GPS would only be online approx. 50% of the time than with my NiMH's, so e.g. only 10 hours instead of 20 ?

If yes, what is the advantage of a Li-ION cell ? (My Ni-MH's work also very well in the cold).

Thanks for any info, NZ

 

 

Wow, where did you find 2900mAh NiMH batteries? the highest mAh I've heard of is 2650's!

 

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/accupowe...e-batteries.htm

Link to comment
Good, but probably not "great" since it's still less capacity than offered by current NiMH cells. Afterall, the RCR-V3 cells (CR-V3 are the *non-rechargeable* version) replace two NiMH cells, so the equivalent capacity per cell is 4500/2 = 2250 mA-hr which is not very high by today's NiMH standards. OTOH the Li+ RCR-V3 cells do have a number of advantages: lighter weight, long shelf-life, and better low temperature performance.

 

Has anyone tried these cells in a 60C/CS or 60C/CSx model? They fit in many devices that run on a pair of side-by-side AA cells but some battery compartments aren't compatible with them.

Thanks for clarifying.

At the end I found a 3V 2500 mAh Li-ION cell (RCR-V3).

From what I have learned above, I would say, it's equivalent to 2500*3/2 = 3750mAh NiMH pair. That would also fit to the vendors statement, that it lasts 50% longer than current NiMH cells.

So IF it would fit in the GPS-units battery compartment and IF it would be supported by the unit itself (firmware and so on), it would be worth a try.

But I would really like to try it first before buying.

Link to comment

At the end I found a 3V 2500 mAh Li-ION cell (RCR-V3).

From what I have learned above, I would say, it's equivalent to 2500*3/2 = 3750mAh NiMH pair. That would also fit to the vendors statement, that it lasts 50% longer than current NiMH cells.

That's much higher than I've seen to date, so could you give a reference? Some vendors of RCR-V3 cells specify an 'equivalent' mA-hr rating and have therefore already applied that multiplication factor to the actual capacity of the cells. The factor is also a little less than 3/2 since the voltage of RCR-V3 cells is dropped slightly from the inherent Li+ voltage of around 3.6 V. RCR-V3 cells are usually about 3.2 V for compatibility with alkaline AA cells and therefore the appropriate factor when comparing capacities to NiMH would be 3.2/(1.2*2) = 1.33.

Edited by peter
Link to comment

Aren't lithium and lithium ion the exact same thing?

No, there are several different battery chemistries that involve the element lithium. The cell voltage and other characteristics depend on the chemical reaction that results in the flow of electrons. The lithium-ion (or Li+) chemistry has an inherent voltage of about 3.6 V/cell whereas the lithium-iron disulfide (Li-FeS2) chemistry in the Eveready lithium AA cells has an inherent voltage of about 1.6 V/cell. Eveready also markets some 'Lithium Photo' cells using the lithium-manganese dioxide (Li-MnO2) chemistry that produces about 3.0 V/cell.

Link to comment

At the end I found a 3V 2500 mAh Li-ION cell (RCR-V3).

From what I have learned above, I would say, it's equivalent to 2500*3/2 = 3750mAh NiMH pair. That would also fit to the vendors statement, that it lasts 50% longer than current NiMH cells.

That's much higher than I've seen to date, so could you give a reference? Some vendors of RCR-V3 cells specify an 'equivalent' mA-hr rating and have therefore already applied that multiplication factor to the actual capacity of the cells. The factor is also a little less than 3/2 since the voltage of RCR-V3 cells is dropped slightly from the inherent Li+ voltage of around 3.6 V. RCR-V3 cells are usually about 3.2 V for compatibility with alkaline AA cells and therefore the appropriate factor when comparing capacities to NiMH would be 3.2/(1.2*2) = 1.33.

Here is the reference. What do you think? To me it looks like a real 2500, not a 1250*2.

http://www.fotolaedle.de/show_product.php?...5a7e9cd5e1493aa

It is 3.0V only, so if it works like I think, it would be comparable to a 3125 mAh NiMH accu.

Edited by NewZealand
Link to comment
The capacity expressed in mAh, is independant of the voltage ! So yes this Li+ 3V 2500mAh pack is equivalent to 2 AA 2500mAh !

 

I was about to post the same. Red90 has been posting a lot of miss-information on here regarding batteries.

 

Wouldn't that mean that the GPS would only be online approx. 50% of the time than with my NiMH's, so e.g. only 10 hours instead of 20 ?

 

A 2000mAh battery can provide 2000mA for an hour independent of it's nominal voltage.

 

Another way of saying that is it can provide 100mA for 20 hours.

 

So if you have a 2900mAh 2.4V NiMH pack, and replace it with a 1500mAh 3.6V Li-Ion pack the unit will only run for half as long - as NewZealand correctly stated in post #6. This is assuming that the unit can handle 3.6V, if it can only handle a maximum of say 3.0V then it will die when the higher voltage pack is inserted.

 

The only reason there is an option for selecting battery type in the menu is so that the discharge-curve of the battery type is correctly modelled and the remaining-battery-meter reads correctly.

 

If yes, what is the advantage of a Li-ION cell ?

 

The advantage of Li+ and Li-Polymer batteries are that they are much much lighter. Now of course this doesn't really matter with a GPS. But one of my other hobbies is electric model helicopters. You can imagine that if a 4000mAh Li-Polymer battery pack weighs less than half that of a NiCd or NiMH 4000mAh pack then you get a much improved flight time since the power required to lift the helicopter is less - even though both packs are the same capacity. I don't really see the point of using Li+ re-chargable batteries in a GPS since they are just more expensive and offer no advantages.

Edited by HooloovooUK
Link to comment
I don't really see the point of using Li+ re-chargable batteries in a GPS since they are just more expensive and offer no advantages.

If that's right what you say, I agree completely (well, possibly the Lithiums are better in the cold, but I'm quite happy with my NiMH's also in winter).

My only wish is to have a rechargable accu, which keeps my unit online as long as possible. I don't care which technology is behind, as long as it also works when it is really cold in winter.

 

On the other hand, why does the vendor of my above mentioned Lithium accu (2500mAh) then state, that it will last 50% longer than NiMH accus?

Edited by NewZealand
Link to comment
On the other hand, why does the vendor of my above mentioned Lithium accu (2500mAh) then state, that it will last 50% longer than NiMH accus?

 

I have no idea.

 

Just buy the highest mAh battery you can get for the cheapest price, regardless of the chemistry. No rechargable battery performs well in the cold. I believe Li+ is actually worse than NiMH for reduced capacity in cold temperatures but I could be wrong there.

Link to comment
Afterall, the RCR-V3 cells (CR-V3 are the *non-rechargeable* version) replace two NiMH cells, so the equivalent capacity per cell is 4500/2 = 2250 mA-hr which is not very high by today's NiMH standards.

 

Wrong. The cells are connected in series so the capacity remains the same.

 

Remember -

In series, the voltage adds and the capacity is constant.

In parallel, the voltage is constant and the capacity adds.

 

So if you were to connect two 1.2V 2250mAh AA cells in series you would get 2.4V 2250mAh, NOT 4500mAh.

 

There's no such this as an "equivalent capacity per cell" when you're talking about cells connected in series. You have taken a nonsense number and divided it by two to create another number with even less meaning.

Edited by HooloovooUK
Link to comment

There's no such this as an "equivalent capacity per cell" when you're talking about cells connected in series. You have taken a nonsense number and divided it by two to create another number with even less meaning.

The problem is that while battery capacities are expressed in terms of the current (mA) they can supply for an amount of time (mA-hrs), the more relevant question is how much power (mW) they can supply for an amount of time (mW-hrs). The wattage is given by current times voltage (W = I x V). A GPS receiver takes a certain amount of power to operate and will therefore draw less current if supplied with a higher voltage (of course only up to the limits of acceptable input voltages for a particular model). So if we're going to compare batteries that have different voltages we can't just look at the capacity number for each but also need to consider the voltage. That's why Red90 and I referred to "equivalent" capacities, i.e. after making an adjustment to account for the voltage difference.

 

In particular, the amount of energy available from two NiMH 2500 mA-hr cells is 2 x 1.2V x 2500 mA-hr = 6000 mW-hr. In comparison, the energy available from the RCR-V3 cell listed by NZ would be 3V x 2500mA-hr = 7500 mW-hr. So one would expect that cell to run a GPS 25% longer than using NiMH 2500 mA-hr cells.

 

Or, the way Red90 and I used "equivalent" capacities before, the 3V, 2500 mA-hr cell is "equivalent" to a pair of 1.2V NiMH cells with a capacity of 3 x 2500 / (2 x 1.2) = 3125 mA-hr. I.e. the single 3V 2500mA-hr cell has the same energy content as would a pair of 1.2V 3125 mA-hr cells.

Link to comment

But the input voltage will be going through a regulator to bring it down to a fixed level, the more you increase the voltage the hotter the regulator will get since it has to step-down further.

 

If the GPS requires 100mA it will always draw 100mA and any excess power will be radiated away as heat from the regulator.

Edited by HooloovooUK
Link to comment

Interesting discussion, continue.

I'm already thinking about to try a RCR-V3 in a shop in my city, just to see if it basically works.

An official Garmin statement about that would be also helpful (because why should they make Li-Ion selectable as power-source if it is not supported?).

Link to comment

But the input voltage will be going through a regulator to bring it down to a fixed level, the more you increase the voltage the hotter the regulator will get.

 

If the GPS requires 100mA it will always draw 100mA and any excess power will be radiated away as heat from the regulator.

This would be true if a linear regulator were to be used. These do waste much of the energy as heat and get very hot if higher input voltages are used. However, there are more energy-efficient methods of converting voltages, such as switching regulators, which reduce the current draw as the voltage increases. A very simplified description is given at:

http://www.rason.org/Projects/swregdes/swregdes.htm

 

Measurements that I've made on my Garmin GPS receivers has shown them to be very close to constant power devices. As the battery voltage decreases, the current draw grows correspondingly. Note that this is the opposite of what's seen in passive devices like flashlights where the current decreases with decreasing voltage (and the light gets rapidly dimmer).

Link to comment
Measurements that I've made on my Garmin GPS receivers has shown them to be very close to constant power devices. As the battery voltage decreases, the current draw grows correspondingly. Note that this is the opposite of what's seen in passive devices like flashlights where the current decreases with decreasing voltage (and the light gets rapidly dimmer).

 

Fair enough. I guess without access to the circuit diagram we'll never know for sure.

Link to comment

An official Garmin statement about that would be also helpful (because why should they make Li-Ion selectable as power-source if it is not supported?).

 

It has to be a typo. They surely meant to say lithium primary.

 

Typo or no, it still doesn't work with the Energizer Lithium batteries.

Link to comment
Typo or no, it still doesn't work with the Energizer Lithium batteries.
I posted this info on another thread but it looks like it might be of interest here as well.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I just tried the Energizer lithium AA (these are NOT lithium-ion) in my 60CSX and they do work. However, you may have to do a little "magic" to make them work properly.

 

Out of the package the lithium AA batteries have a voltage of about 1.78V. This drops very quickly with use to about 1.58V (alkalines are about 1.56V new). If you put new lithium batteries in your 60CSx they may give the problems others have described because of the higher initial voltage. I first put the new lithium AA batteries in a flashlight with an incandecent bulb (not an LED flashlight) and turned it on for 1 minute. What this does is put a reasonable load on the batteries to discharge them just enough to get the voltage down to the voltage level they will be for rest of their useful life. After just 1 minute the lithium battery voltage dropped to about 1.58 volts and still had essentially 100% of their capacity.

 

Now I turned on my 60CSX with the NiMh batteries in it and, in setup, selected "lithium ion" for the battery type. What will happen now is the battery gauge is recalibrated to indicate the charge condition of the lithium cells (which is higher than the 1.2V-1.4V NiMh) and will show zero bars and perhaps give a "battery low" warning. Turn the GPS off, replace the NiMh batteries with the lithium and the unit will power up normally and the battery gauge will indicate 4 bars(full).

 

Lithium AAs will work well at low temps but the limiting factor in a GPS will probably be the LCD screen as the liquid in the screen gets more and more viscous as the temps drop. Where the lithiums may work best are as a backup battery set because of the extremely low self-discharge rate. NiMh batteries will discharge much faster even just sitting in your pack.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...