Reviewers

1.7k · May 10, 2006

It has become apparent lately that in some people's eyes Eckington and I have been failing in our duties in upholding the standards that have arbitrarily set for us. A number of otherwise reasonable threads have become unduly "heated" because of this.

So in order to try and keep most threads friendly and on topic I am starting this thread where you can air you thoughts. I am voluntarily suspending the normal forum guideline on personal attacks so you can freely say what you think, but only regarding the two of us.

Don't necessarily expect us to respond though.

OK who's going to be first?

May 10, 2006

It has become apparent lately that in some people's eyes Eckington and I have been failing in our duties in upholding the standards that have arbitrarily set for us. A number of otherwise reasonable threads have become unduly "heated" because of this.

So in order to try and keep most threads friendly and on topic I am starting this thread where you can air you thoughts. I am voluntarily suspending the normal forum guideline on personal attacks so you can freely say what you think, but only regarding the two of us.

Don't necessarily expect us to respond though.

OK who's going to be first?

Lacto,

I have always had great service from yourself, so have no complaints whatsoever. :mad:

I am unaware of the mudslinging that you are refering to.

Keep up the good work! <_<

Cheers

Dave

1.1k · May 10, 2006

I'll be first,

I think you're both doing a wonderful job. Caches are reviewed very quickly, Cache problems are dealt with effectively, and the forum is moderated with a light, but guiding touch.

To be honest, you both deserve a pay rise!

Edit - well, I thought I'd be first, but I'm happy with second.

Edited May 10, 2006 by NickPick

3.9k · May 10, 2006

I propose a rise of say, 50%, seems very generous compared to the rate of inflation <_<

1.8k · May 10, 2006

I back Dave's (Mars Bars Dave that is) views here. <_<

I think I know what the "mudslinging" was and how it was handled but AFIAC there were no double standards applied by the reviewers, intentionally or not.

I think we should always remember that our reviewers give a heck of a lot of their time for our benefit and we only need to hark back to their resignation and the outcry which that sparked to realize just how much we rely on them. :mad:

Edited May 10, 2006 by John Stead

6.2k · May 10, 2006

I can only speak from personal experience, but I've always found the reviewers to be even-handed, courteous, speedy, flexible (perhaps not physically) without ignoring Groundspeak/other bodies' sensible guidelines, enthusiastic and responsible. I've not always agreed with them, but that's because I've come at a topic from a different angle. I have great respect for anyone who gives up their time on a voluntary basis to help others enjoy the sport. Put it this way, if it wasn't Pete and Dave, who would we pick to be reviewers? My short list is really short! There's no way on gawds-green-earth that I'd do it.

That's what I really think. They're human and thus fallible, but I believe they do an excellent job on the whole. Say 9/10.

2.5k · May 10, 2006

If anybody else had to put up with the innuendo and personal attacks that Lacto and Ecks get on these forums, they would be justified in asking for, and in getting, the thread closed. Because they are the forum moderators, they seem loathe to use the same priviledge for themselves, and so have to put up with a lot. I don't enjoy reading it. It's far too easy to stand on the outside and throw muck in, isn't it?

May 10, 2006

I think very few of us realise just how much you, the reviewers, do to enable us to enjoy the sport/game addiction; frequently with very little thanks - or even the reverse.

I am sure the vast majority of cachers in the UK do apreciate your efforts although most of us don't say so.

As in any walk of life there are, of course, the 'usual suspects. . . . .

May 10, 2006

I think you both do a fab job. You are always fair, well considered and responsive. You try and use common sense when reviewing new caches and keep the forums in an orderly, family friendly manner.

You're never going to please all of the people all of the time and you will always get some users who deliberately try and stir things up (not meaning anyone in particular - just a general comment). Don't take what they say personally and keep up the great work <_<

May 10, 2006

We think you both appear to perform your roles in an excellent manner within the perameters set for you by G.C. Com and the info provided to by cache placers when submitting cache details for publication .

May 10, 2006

I too now know what the "mudslinging" is <_< and my views remain the same...

Top job both of you!

Cheers

Dave

1.7k · May 10, 2006

You are a couple of worthless drunks. :mad: <_<

But most of the time that puts you in good company on this board. :mad:

May 10, 2006

I see no failing on the part of the Moderators. I add my wholehearted support to you both.

3.8k · May 10, 2006

Don't like that Eckington bloke very much 'cos two years ago he wouldn't let me set a virtual cache in the Peak District :mad:

Only joking, Mr Eckington, Sir :mad: I have nothing but praise for yourself and that other geezer that reviews and publishes my cache with the speed of a... a... a very fast thing. <_< :mad: :mad:

1.2k · May 10, 2006

I echo John Stead's comments.

It's a tiny stirring minority and they don't represent the feelings and thoughts of the majority. Well, not my feelings and thoughts anyway...

EDIT: I've just seen what prompted this thread <_<

Edited May 10, 2006 by Kitty Hawk

1.5k · May 10, 2006

I can only say that the reviewers have been unfailingly helpful, hardworking and courteous in all the dealings I have had with them.

They have done their best to help when any questions have arisen, and have been discreet when necessary.

They publish caches with alacrity (OK - they once published one that I had asked to be delayed!! <_< ).

The final proof of their value: Could I do the job as well as they? No!

Would I want to do their job? No!

Thanks for the major contribution you both make to geocaching - it really makes all the difference to the sport.

May 10, 2006

My heart sank when I saw the topic appear. I thought that some of the recent comments might have been the straw that broke the camel's back (again) and we would be looking for new reviewers.

We'll thank goodness we are not there (yet).

I had thought of starting off the reply along the lines of 'Following much media interest a number of geocachers have demanded a timetable for the hand over of power. Mr Lacto has stated that he expects to serve an almost full term but will ensure that there is adequate time for the new dictator to take over the reins...' but then thought better of it as it might get misunderstood.

So let me state again, the dual job of moderating a forum and reviewing (approving or whatever the current correct term is) caches must be immense. When I think how long it takes me to log my finds after a day out it staggers me that you can read the number of new cache descriptions you must receive each week, and keep an eye on the blatherings that happen here.

I can't think of a time when I have felt a thread has been incorrectly 'modded'.

I am amazed at how quickly caches are approved. Mine nay have been straightforward. I'm sure that others take a lot more looking into to check that they meet with a whole host of sometimes conflicting guidelines, advice, rules, laws and precedence. Some will eventually come down to a matter of judgement. The setter may be disappointed if their cache gets rejected. But you would have had good reason. And I'm afraid I would just have to say 'get over it - it's only hiding a plastic box'.

On the other hand, a few might slip through the net and get placed which perhaps shouldn't. The caching community on the whole know when they see a 'bad cache' and have mechanisms in place to rectify this.

All this has to be done voluntarily, in spare time, remotely without meeting the people and without actually visiting the sites involved. When I think of the endless meetings and visits I have to make at work to get the simplest job done....

So no complaints from me... you are doing an excellent job. I know I couldn't do it anywhere near as well, and I think the list of people that could is probably in single figures.

2.5k · May 10, 2006

My opinion is that yesterday Eckington made a post personal, and you back him up, several people thought my initial post was justified and none personal, but the moderators were not happy with this as they thought it was not in spirit. A real issue which affect nature was raised and the mods close the topic, is this a dictatorship where a concerned voice is gagged!

3.1k · May 10, 2006

I too know what the mud slinging has been about, and over dinner last night, the Sandiway Searchers and I had a very long discussion about it, and the work of Mr Lacto and Mr Eckers...

We wholeheartedly feel that you provide a service second to none... that you give so much of your precious time to the obsession that it itself must be an obsession. There could be no doubt in ANYONE's mind that to do all you do for GC MUST be recognised and supported by everyone that caches, be they "part timers" or full time wierdos like most of us.

There was a bit of a debate on geochat last night regarding some people's interpersonal skills, but one thing that amazes me is that no matter how strained things get, both Lactodorum and Eckington remain calm, and try and resolve issues like true professionals.

What we must remember is that these guys give their time so that we can pursue our hobby...

It upsets me that we even have to have this thread.

Three cheers for the mods...

Hip Hip............

Edited May 10, 2006 by HazelS

May 10, 2006

Hooray!!!

When you think of the mammoth task that Lacto & Ecky have taken on in their own free time and for no pay at all, then who on earth could have anything bad to say about them!!!!

We think they are a great couple of geezers and they have always been totally fair, so we would like to take the opportunity to thank them both for all the help they have been in the past (and future) :mad: :mad: <_<

Edited to add the hooray!!!

Edited May 10, 2006 by ANDYBUG&LADYBIRD

May 10, 2006

I have had dealings with mods in regards cache placement.

One of them advised on the correct way, according to the guidelines, of placing the cache and why the virtual state was not permitted. Which I appreciated as it was early on in our foray into this hobby.

They do a decent job with little or no thanks.

Keep up the good work of applying common sense to difficult situations.

Mick, Chris & Eva

1.2k · May 10, 2006

My opinion is that yesterday Eckington made a post personal, and you back him up, several people thought my initial post was justified and none personal, but the moderators were not happy with this as they thought it was not in spirit. A real issue which affect nature was raised and the mods close the topic, is this a dictatorship where a concerned voice is gagged!

Yes, you worded your initial post very carefully so that only Eckington would understand where you were coming from. You sought to, and partially suceeded in manipulating the forum. We still don't know the background story, but we know there is a background story and for that reason alone your post was at best ill judged.

IMO you probably are a sincere "concerned voice", however...

Your last sentence above is crass (in my opinion) and I hope you will withdraw it.

May 10, 2006

I also think our mods are very fair and reasonable (and a lot more so than some mods from other countries, from what I have seen). It must take up a heck of a lot of time and it's a job I certainly wouldn't want to do!

I hope you guys aren't considering resigning - it's always the dissatisfied people that are the most vocal, people that are happy don't often speak up to say so.

Lisa

May 10, 2006

We'd also like to say a big thanks to Lacto and Ecky. Always found both of you to be friendly, funny at times too, and extremely quick <_<

May 10, 2006

Can't hang around long as we've just spotted the Rebel Alliance and as members of the Intergalactic Bounty Hunting Clan its our job to be after them. <_<

As for Ecky & Lacto I know they have their particular quirks (one is insisting that we don't put the waymarks for our caches in Derbyshire when the caches are in Norfolk) but that's because they are trying to do there job. Having met cachers whose disgruntled remarks are about the "lack of checking on the ground", they are dependant on us cache setters being proactive in carrying out our own quality control. If some cache setters are using terminological inexactitude to slip caches by them then it must be up to the rest of the GC community to "police" them or end up being tarred with the same brush as climbers who rock bolt, quad bikers who rip up open moorland, or bird-egging (let it be known that this isn’t a dig at technical climbers, green roaders or ornithologists in general)

I enjoy being kept on my toes and when advice has been sought in advance I for one have always accepted it gratefully. One the one occasion when a cache concept had to be changed the reasons given were clearly stated and for me it was a case of do I want the cache out there or is the integrity of the original concept overriding; it wasn't and it is out there to be enjoyed - though not found too often! :mad:

2.5k · May 10, 2006

My opinion is that yesterday Eckington made a post personal, and you back him up, several people thought my initial post was justified and none personal, but the moderators were not happy with this as they thought it was not in spirit. A real issue which affect nature was raised and the mods close the topic, is this a dictatorship where a concerned voice is gagged!

Yes, you worded your initial post very carefully so that only Eckington would understand where you were coming from. You sought to, and partially suceeded in manipulating the forum. We still don't know the background story, but we know there is a background story and for that reason alone your post was at best ill judged.

IMO you probably are a sincere "concerned voice", however...

Your last sentence above is crass (in my opinion) and I hope you will withdraw it.

No I will not withdraw my remark; the mods closed a thread on an important issue!

If Geocahing is going to become about destroying natural environments then the whole hobby is wrong, the moderators are here to listen, and if a topic comes up which is important they should not interfere. This is abuse of position and it is not on.

If the People at the top at GC.com feel I have overstepped the mark then let them ban me, but I feel that they will understand the position as the US has harsher guidelines on areas where caches can and can’t be placed. The GAGB guidelines are clear and the cache in question is a risk to it’s environment.

2.2k · May 10, 2006

Ok, I will go on record here.

I have already communicated privately to Lactodorum that he has my full support. I repeat that here. My full support also goes to Eckington (even though like Pharisee the mean Yorkshire man turned down my virtual lol)

I may not always agree with the reviewers but they do a dadgum sight better job than I would do for the money <_<

Have to agree with Slytherin though they are a pair of drunks.

Anyway, lets get on with making pratts of ourselves looking for Tupperware in the woods. It is what its all about after all.

3.7k · May 10, 2006

I don't know the background to the "mudslinging" episode so would not like to comment on something that I don't fully know about, but I would like to take this opportunity to voice my support for our excellent moderators/reviewers.

<_< :mad:

HH

May 10, 2006

I don't know the background to the "mudslinging" episode so would not like to comment on something that I don't fully know about, but I would like to take this opportunity to voice my support for our excellent moderators/reviewers.

HH

We'd agree wholeheartedly with that.

You both do an excellent job!

1.9k · May 10, 2006

I am 100% behind you guys as always, you follow the guidelines to the letter there is always going to be the odd cache that slips through the net but you always sort out any problems just as soon as you can, as and when you are notified of any problems with location etc.

Please don't threaten to leave again I (eeyore) have only just started posting on the forum again after the last time you were going to leave.

Love you both

Eeyore

1.3k · May 10, 2006

Both of you have our full support. We have found the service and advice you have provided to us as a team, and to our offshoot members, to be second to none and cannot fault it in the slightest. Its always the case that you can't please all of the people all of the time, and judging by the amount of positive comments which have gone before our posting on this thread, seems its just a small minority with a grumble or two. Think of it as ebay feedback ..... 99.9%, or somewhere around that mark. Keep up the good work! Can't think of anyone else who could do the job better (or would be mad enough to take it on!). Countless beer tokens here for you both to collect sometime. <_< :mad: :mad:

2.3k · May 10, 2006

I also have no idea what the mudslinging was about but can only assume Lacto & Ecks felt it best to quell an argument rather than allow it to escalate.

100% support from me on all fronts re these two chaps.

Simon

May 10, 2006

Super fast service and a great sounding board when I have tried to do some unusual things with caches (not physically- you know what I mean!). Can't speak highly enough of the guys even though I too have had a virtual rejected in the past on the basis that it completely ran against the geocaching.com guidelines... guess they were right.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Pieman

1.1k · May 10, 2006

My only gripe is that dodgy bloke, Eckers...

Daily Trivia - When he get's same same points and time as me, he ALWAYS gets placed above me???

Now that's JUST NOT FAIR! <_<

Apart from that, we in the UK couldn't have been luckier.

Jon

:mad:

May 10, 2006

you have my total support you have always been fast in approving my caches and offered good advice .

you both do a fantastic job.and if it wasnt for you both then i wouldnt be able to enjoy this hobby which gives me so much pleasure.

dont take any notice of those who arnt happy with you .sad people always have something to moan about . if they aint happy then let them go and find another hobby.

so once again keep up the good work and a big thankyou for all the work you do.and just to let you know your appreciated,

Edited May 10, 2006 by alma

3.8k · May 10, 2006

I think I know what the "mudslinging" was and how it was handled but AFIAC there were no double standards applied by the reviewers, intentionally or not.

As I am the only person to my knowledge to have mentioned double standards, on one post and one post alone. I can only presume that at least one person believes that I am a mudslinger. I felt as though I justified my comments on this, on the other thread, and I would hope that Lacto and Ecky both know of the past times that I was refering too.

Now with that said, other than one post made by Ecky I can't fault the two of you, you really do do a great job. One which I couldn't uphold. I think it is fair to say that I have always bowed to your decisions and upheld any final word given by yourselves.

Please keep up the astounding work you do for us.

If Ecky or Lacto wish me to explain my comments from the other thread, then gentlemen you have my email address, I would be only happy to answer any queries that you may have. I certainly have nothing against any of the two of you.

May 10, 2006

How does the GAGB Committee get elected ? <_<

And maybe it should be reviewed ?

1.7k · May 10, 2006

Having been a member long enough to have been around when the UK had 5 Reviewers (or Approvers as they were then Know) who set a high standard and the mud slinging they received. I'm totally amazed that you 2 guys have raised their standards despite the work load increasing by such a huge amount, and yet you've still managed to keep those standards despite the hassle and mud slinging you receive.

As the saying goes "You can please people some of the time, but you can't please them all of the time". Well you guys come close to pleasing everyone all of the time. You ain't perfect, and there are going to be instances where you can't please someone. Just look at the amount of support for the job your doing! And the No's who believe your doing a great job.

Dave

2.2k · May 10, 2006

How does the GAGB Committee get elected ?

And maybe it should be reviewed ?

Well, last time there was no vote as there were only enough posts for those who volunteered. So next time more volunteers please!

2.3k · May 10, 2006

I know nothing of the "troubles" we have been too busy setting caches lately <_< and to be quite honest I am way behind in reading the forums.

I myself have nothing but praise for Ecky and Lacto, in all the dealings I have had with them I have found them to be friendly, helpful, when I have had problems or have not understood something and I have emailed them saying so, and they have always replied helpfully and curtiously. :mad:

I wouldn't want to do your job fellas, and I bet there aren't many in here who would, I can imagine you will both get loads of grief from time to time, most of us get paid for taking the "crap", but doing it voluntarily, you must be mad :mad:

One thing I have wondered about though is........you must have loads of work just keeping the UK going with their caches, so why do you have to moderate the forums too, did you choose to be forum moderators or did it come with the "job" of reviewer?

Would separate reviewers and moderators be a good idea?

Mandy :mad:

May 10, 2006

How does the GAGB Committee get elected ?

And maybe it should be reviewed ?

Well, last time there was no vote as there were only enough posts for those who volunteered. So next time more volunteers please!

If we can get by will only 2 Reviewers, maybe we could manage with 1 fewer Committee Members. :mad:

How about a vote.

May 10, 2006

I can-not believe what I am reading ?

The mods have a job to do and do it very well indeed, having to sit there and listen/read or whatever to people moaning about this hobby we are supposed to love so much.

All I will say is ask yourself a question 'Could you do it ? '

Could you sit there day in and day out looking thru some of the rubbish, lets be honest, some of it is just that and having to make sure that no-one oversteps the mark and to not offend anyone at the same time,

coupled with the fact that they have to review submitted cache's and all the bumf that goes with that.

I can honestly say that I wouldnt enjoy doing what they have to do.

People have opinions and sometimes its important to them so when they get edited or whatever they get upset, understandably so but thats life, tough..... I don't want to pay £1 a litre for petrol but I have to,if anyone doesn't like what the geocaching guidlines are or what the Mods have to do, don't join in, nobodys forcing anyone are they, at least you have that option....

Lacto and Ecky have a job to do, again they do it very well and thats that, respect and understand what they do because would you want to do it ?

Or another look at it another way, could YOU do it....... ?!?

1.7k · May 10, 2006

nothing more to say really! Our minimal (so fa)r number of caches have been reviewed with alacrity (although it did take Mr L a whole DAY once to publish <_< ) and they have been flexible when needed! I won't say what for in case it starts more trouble!)

100% support from both of us with modding and reviewing - I am in awe that they ever find time to DO any caching :mad:

Many many thanks

Dave and Mary

PS - just noted from the profiles that they DON'T do any caching...! :mad:

May 10, 2006

We've not been in this game for long. Don't know what the mudslinging is all about and really don't need to know. Can only speak from experience and having had slight problems with cache placements (bin liners and permissions) we've only had good advice and help from Lactodorum and Eckington which has eventually helped us to get our caches placed properly. <_<

We also think that they do a great job and whilst we are all out there enjoying the countryside looking for these little plastic boxes they must be cooped up in front of a computer all day poor things. :mad:

May 10, 2006

Although I think Ecto was a bit quick to step in to the other thread(I don't know any of the background) on the whole I think you two do a heck of a job and pleased we have you as reviewers, I certainly wouldn't want to do the job.

Top marks guys! Keep up the good work.

May 10, 2006

Only one word can express my thoughts and much appreciation for your efforts and excellent voluntary work.

Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious

May 10, 2006

All power to the mods!!

You have a difficult and sometimes thankless job to do, one which most of could proberly moan about if it affects us but wouldn't be willing to do the job ourselves!

Nothing but praise, all communications i've had, have been fair and written with humour even when sometimes the mistakes i make are "blonde" and obvious...

Each email i've sent a mod asking for help has been replied to speedily and every cache published the same day.

Keep up the good work guys!!

Taz

TFB x

May 10, 2006

I hold both of our reviewers in high regard.

There are only a few people who have the skills to moderate a forum properly. I think that they do a great job, and I think this despite the fact that I might have wished them to take more action about certain posts in the past.

It was obvious to me that Moote's original post had a hidden agenda, and that he hoped to create support for whatever his gripe is/was. If this was an action after an already considerable debate in private, I'm not surprised that the reviewers thought it inappropriate.

I have concerns about the fact that GAGB's views are being represented by someone who frequently finds himself in confrontations with others: that's not a good way to promote geocaching surely?

1.8k · May 10, 2006

Speaking personally:

I've always found Lac and Eck to be very quick to approve caches, and very ready to help and advise with potential problem caches. I also feel they do an excellent job in moderating these forums. They both have my full support.

Speaking as Chairman of GAGB:

GAGB and the gc.com UK reviewers work closely together on many issues, and do so extremely amicably and efficiently. I hope and believe that things will continue that way in the future. I find it very disappointing to see forum developments which could be taken to reflect badly on GAGB's committee or on GAGB's relationship with the reviewers.

Whenever I post in these forums myself, I always bear in mind that even though I might be expressing my personal views I am nonetheless a representative of GAGB and thus part of its public face. I can only say that I wish others would also always bear that in mind.

3.8k · May 10, 2006

At the time of myself accusing Ecky of double standards, I thought I was justified on the information which I was presented.

Moote has expertly managed to dupe myself and others into an argument that shouldn't have been brought to these forums. I would like to say that I am now ashamed of the comments that I made.

If I could turn back time and erase what I said I would, but I can't!

So that only leaves one other thing to say to Ecky -

<_< :mad: SORRY :mad: :mad:

Edited May 10, 2006 by Haggis Hunter

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