Pr & Getting Info

[Photobuff]

The experienced already know this, but it deserves mention for those who don't. For almost every successful benchmark find, especially tough FTF ones, I talk to property owners, neighbors, and anyone else around. Invariably, they are friendly, interested, and have valuable information that contributes to the find or even a not found. They know when road work was done, when a mark was last seen, and when major changes to the reference points occurred. They know what things looked like way back when. As an example, I was looking for marks on an old rail bed, most of which had been destroyed. I spotted a guy working on his boat in the parking lot of an apartment complex. I figured if he lived in an apartment, he wouldn't have much info, but decided to say hello anyway. Turns out he's lived in the area all his life, and played on the rr tracks when he was a kid. He told me exactly where one of the marks should be, and that it was so overgrown now that I'd have trouble reaching it. Sure enough, it was exactly where he said it was, and it was every bit as tough to reach as he said. Moral of the story- don't be afraid to knock on doors and say hello to strangers.

 

In return for all this, I try to give something back. If a mark is on or very near somebodies property, I'll make up a folder for them containing the data sheet, decent ink jet closeups of the mark and related RMs and azimuths, and maybe an aerial photo from one of the services, with the marks located and labeled. It seems to be appreciated. One thing I haven't done is print up some hobbyist type business cards so they can get hold of me if they want. What I envision is they might call if they see construction coming that might wipe out the mark- the fate of so many around here. Then I could let NGS or DOT know, in case they'd like to do a reset. Probably overkill, but hey, what are hobbies for if not the wholesale consumption of free time?

[+Kewaneh & Shark]

Above and beyond, Photobuff. Well done and keep it up.

- Kewaneh

[+Ernmark]

..I agree - the people who live near to these things provide valuable information - especially when the area has undergone a lot of changes. They also find these disks as a mystery, as most surveyors just occupy the mark ans move on. I just got done logging one where the owner told me that some surveyors came looking for one in her yard a couple of years ago, offering no explanation or respect for her property. I explained what purpose it serves, and she was really happy that I took the time to explain what this thing was all about...she even insisted on holding the tape measure while I rechecked the measurements. ...anyway - I agree - it's a good idea to talk to the "locals" !

[mloser]

I can say that it has been very important to me to talk to locals about the marks I search for. Although I was sure that KV3871 was gone, a resident had gone to school in the building and the newer high school (incorrectly logged on gc.com as a found) beside it. Similarly, a couple walking by as I searched for KW0150 told me about the street crossing mentioned in this description that used to exist, but no longer does, and confirmed what I had suspected about the location of this mark. Both were not founds (I am sure one will lead to a destroyed), but in both cases the conversations I had confirmed what I was thinking.

 

In my searches I have had hundreds of conversations about the history of the areas I am searching. In almost all cases I have learned something I didn't know before. Some of it helped me understand why a benchmark did or did not exist, some gave me knowledge of the area I did not know before. For instance, a lady told me of how she used to cross the tracks of a coal railroad every day on her way to school, and how the trains would carry the coal miners on open flat cars from her town to the mines every day, sun, rain, or snow. What a great taste of days long gone, and what flavor of a once-vital town, now a shadow of its former self, with the railroad (and many survey marks) gone, and no real business to support itself. I stood there and tried to imagine heavy coal trains running through the town on tracks that no longer existed, in fact, tracks it was hard to imagine EVER existed--they were so long gone and totally obliterated. Sad, yet somehow exhilerating at the same time.

 

The History Channel has spoiled us with its clean, edited vignettes of history. Get out there and talk to the people who experienced it while they are still with us!

 

Note: I don't mean to disparage the History Channel. I LOVE the History Channel, but nothing can replace personal experience. Don't be afraid to knock on a door, or stop someone walking by. They often (usually!, if I dare say so), have something of value to tell you, and are more than willing to do so.

[StripeMark]

I have had land owners and neighbors help me with plenty of marks. I've had a couple farmers who knew exactly what I was talking about and led me right to the mark. On one recovery, an elderly lady even brought me out a drink and sandwich!

[+Klemmer]

If your target marks happen to be in a park or wilderness area, don't forget the applicable park ranger. I've had nice conversations and assistance from several of the ... shall we say .... "more mature" ones.

[+bicknell]

Yep, 99% of the property owners are quite helpful. It's helpful to point out you only want a picture, many people have been concerned when I say I'm looking for a survey marker that I'm with the state and about to widen the road and take their yard!

 

We made up a one page print out about what benchmaks are, who we are, why we are there and carry a few. There's a space to write in the PID and it has the URL's. We hand them out to anyone who's interested...works well.

[Wintertime]

Bicknell, would you be willing to share that handout with us? It sounds like a great idea.

 

Patty

[+bicknell]

Bicknell, would you be willing to share that handout with us? It sounds like a great idea.

 

Patty

 

Here's a PDF of the flyer we are currently using. I'd welcome suggestions to improve it. Feel free to use it in your own hunting.

 

I think I've said before it would be cool if Geocaching.com had a "standard form" for people to use...maybe this will be the start of that.

 

http://www.ufp.org/~bicknell/benchmarks/flyer.pdf

[+Accordiongal]

bicknell,

Thanks for sharing your flyer. Nicely done. Accordiongal

[+Astro_D]

Very nice flyer. I will be making a couple of copies for us to use. Sounds better than the babble that comes outta my mouth sometimes and sure looks neater.

 

I too, have found that most land owners are very accomodating and even willing to aid in the search of these BMs, or at the very least, recall memories of the area from times long gone for us to listen too as we're searching and measuring. Its a great way to meet people!

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

The flyer is excellent and I'm sure it can goa long way to getting you to the mark. Local information is equaly important.

 

My environment in a large city (New York) is a little different and my (mostly) successful experience may be of some help to others.

 

In the city you seldom meet owners. You meet door men, security guards, police, park rangers, coast guard, etc. etc. The key difference is all of these folks who might aid or deny access are working for some one else and your approach to them is important. Here are a few things that have worked for me:

 

1) Look like you belong. I always wear a blaze-orange safety vest and hold a clipboard (I haven't bought a hard hat yet). Don't dress too well or they'll think you're a boss. Look like a worker, not a boss.

 

2) Use they old Grace Hopper adage: "It's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission". I usually just walk in and start doing my business.

 

3) Distract. If I bump into someone I ask for directions. Last week I was in an area with signs that said "Restricted Area, No entry except by authority of Police". So I walked in (with clipboard and orange vest) and when I bumped into some one I asked "Can you tell me where building 610 is?". They were very helpful. Another time I was in a parking lot for a Coast Guard building trying to lift a man hole cover up. A young man drove in and parked and when he got out and gave me a look, I said "Hi, can you help me with this". With both struggled with the thing and finally gave up. I said "I guess I'll have to come back with some better tools". He said "Yeah, you probably need a crow bar." (I promise that is a true story!)

 

And almost no one knows what a bench mark is. One guy in the police restricted area asked "What kind of land marks are you checking?" I said "No, bench marks, they're metal disks used by surveyors, There's one mounted on the door step to your building."

 

4) Paperwork. Always have something on the clipboard (even if you use a PDA for your searches). If you show them a data sheet, they'll look at it and almost instantly turn away when they see stuff like "The geoid height was determined by GEOID99. The dynamic height is computed by dividing the NAVD 88 geopotential number by the normal gravity value computed on the Geodetic Reference System of 1980 (GRS 80) ellipsoid at 45 degrees latitude (g = 980.6199 gals.)." (I don't know what it means either!)

 

5) "What agency are you from?" "Who do you work for?" These questions occasionally come up. Be prepared for a truthful answer. I generally say "I'm a volunteer reporting data into the National Geodetic Survey." I might then add "They used to be called the Coast and Godetic Survey". More folks have heard of the old name and of course it's a subtle distraction. I don't say I'm doing it for a hobby (unless the situation seems right). New York tends to be all business, business, no time for pleasure.

 

6) Here's a form I've made. It's basically a datasheet with some window dressing. I've never had to show it to anyone but sometimes I've used it as an additional "prop". It's an MS word document and feel free to use it: Bench Mark Recovery Form sample.doc

 

The most important thing is to look like you belong and that you know what you are doing.

 

The one time I was turned away was at the entrance to a construction site. A young guy (like 19 years old), would just say "I'm not supposed to let anyone in here, sir". So in cases like that, or where I really can't get in without picture ID (like the oil loading docks in the Bronx) I just move on. There's plenty more out there.

 

Regards

Pb

Edited May 20, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[Z15]

PS The link does not work for me

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

PS The link does not work for me

It seems to work here with both Mozilla and IE. On Mozilla (1.0.7), I get a blank browser window and a dialog box which asks whether I want to open the file or save it to disk. When I say open it, it starts an MS Word session with the document in it, but which always tends to wind up behind the blank browser window, but it's there.

 

On IE it just brings the document up in the browser.

 

What kind of a messsage do you get?

[Z15]

The link only gives me a blank Mozilla page if I click on it but maybe that was not the intention.

 

I was able to save the file by right clicking and save as.

Edited May 20, 2006 by Z15

[68-eldo]

My environment in a large city (New York) is a little different and my (mostly) successful experience may be of some help to others.

 

In the city you seldom meet owners. You meet door men, security guards, police, park rangers, coast guard, etc. etc. The key difference is all of these folks who might aid or deny access are working for some one else and your approach to them is important. Here are a few things that have worked for me:

 

1) Look like you belong. I always wear a blaze-orange safety vest and hold a clipboard (I haven't bought a hard hat yet). Don't dress too well or they'll think you're a boss. Look like a worker, not a boss.

 

2) Use they old Grace Hopper adage: "It's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission". I usually just walk in and start doing my business.

 

3) Distract. If I bump into someone I ask for directions. Last week I was in an area with signs that said "Restricted Area, No entry except by authority of Police". So I walked in (with clipboard and orange vest) and when I bumped into some one I asked "Can you tell me where building 610 is?". They were very helpful. Another time I was in a parking lot for a Coast Guard building trying to lift a man hole cover up. A young man drove in and parked and when he got out and gave me a look, I said "Hi, can you help me with this". With both struggled with the thing and finally gave up. I said "I guess I'll have to come back with some better tools". He said "Yeah, you probably need a crow bar." (I promise that is a true story!)

 

And almost no one knows what a bench mark is. One guy in the police restricted area asked "What kind of land marks are you checking?" I said "No, bench marks, they're metal disks used by surveyors, There's one mounted on the door step to your building."

 

4) Paperwork. Always have something on the clipboard (even if you use a PDA for your searches). If you show them a data sheet, they'll look at it and almost instantly turn away when they see stuff like "The geoid height was determined by GEOID99. The dynamic height is computed by dividing the NAVD 88 geopotential number by the normal gravity value computed on the Geodetic Reference System of 1980 (GRS 80) ellipsoid at 45 degrees latitude (g = 980.6199 gals.)." (I don't know what it means either!)

 

5) "What agency are you from?" "Who do you work for?" These questions occasionally come up. Be prepared for a truthful answer. I generally say "I'm a volunteer reporting data into the National Geodetic Survey." I might then add "They used to be called the Coast and Godetic Survey". More folks have heard of the old name and of course it's a subtle distraction. I don't say I'm doing it for a hobby (unless the situation seems right). New York tends to be all business, business, no time for pleasure.

 

6) Here's a form I've made. It's basically a datasheet with some window dressing. I've never had to show it to anyone but sometimes I've used it as an additional "prop". It's an MS word document and feel free to use it: Bench Mark Recovery Form sample.doc

 

The most important thing is to look like you belong and that you know what you are doing.

 

The one time I was turned away was at the entrance to a construction site. A young guy (like 19 years old), would just say "I'm not supposed to let anyone in here, sir". So in cases like that, or where I really can't get in without picture ID (like the oil loading docks in the Bronx) I just move on. There's plenty more out there.

 

Regards

Pb

 

I call that urban camouflage.

 

The shipyard I was working at had just converted all their building plans to AutoCad and I was assigned to verify the plans with the actual building. This meant going into various office spaces. If I walked in with jeans and T shirt like was worn on the waterfront someone would always challenge me and keep a close eye on me as I went about my business. If I showed up in a polo shirt with a pocket and new jeans most of the time they hardly noticed me. When I came in with a good shirt and trousers carrying a clip board people would scurry back to their cubicles and look busy. One time they even let the popcorn in the microwave burn instead of claiming it.

 

When on a Navy base looking for marks on the piers or streets drive a white pickup or van with a vise on the back bumper, wear a green tank suit with rubber boots.

 

Yesterday I walked into a construction site wearing steel toed boots, orange vest and hard hat. But with the clipboard nobody would talk to me. They just referred me to the foreman.

 

I ask the foreman if any of his work would disturb the two stations. He assured me they would be very careful of those marks. I proceeded to record the marks (nether one is in the NGS data base, darn it).

[Team Fawlty]

The flyer is excellent and I'm sure it can goa long way to getting you to the mark. Local information is equaly important.

 

My environment in a large city (New York) is a little different and my (mostly) successful experience may be of some help to others.

 

In the city you seldom meet owners. You meet door men, security guards, police, park rangers, coast guard, etc. etc. The key difference is all of these folks who might aid or deny access are working for some one else and your approach to them is important. Here are a few things that have worked for me:

 

1) Look like you belong. I always wear a blaze-orange safety vest and hold a clipboard (I haven't bought a hard hat yet). Don't dress too well or they'll think you're a boss. Look like a worker, not a boss.

 

2) Use they old Grace Hopper adage: "It's better to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission". I usually just walk in and start doing my business.

 

3) Distract. If I bump into someone I ask for directions. Last week I was in an area with signs that said "Restricted Area, No entry except by authority of Police". So I walked in (with clipboard and orange vest) and when I bumped into some one I asked "Can you tell me where building 610 is?". They were very helpful. Another time I was in a parking lot for a Coast Guard building trying to lift a man hole cover up. A young man drove in and parked and when he got out and gave me a look, I said "Hi, can you help me with this". With both struggled with the thing and finally gave up. I said "I guess I'll have to come back with some better tools". He said "Yeah, you probably need a crow bar." (I promise that is a true story!)

 

And almost no one knows what a bench mark is. One guy in the police restricted area asked "What kind of land marks are you checking?" I said "No, bench marks, they're metal disks used by surveyors, There's one mounted on the door step to your building."

 

4) Paperwork. Always have something on the clipboard (even if you use a PDA for your searches). If you show them a data sheet, they'll look at it and almost instantly turn away when they see stuff like "The geoid height was determined by GEOID99. The dynamic height is computed by dividing the NAVD 88 geopotential number by the normal gravity value computed on the Geodetic Reference System of 1980 (GRS 80) ellipsoid at 45 degrees latitude (g = 980.6199 gals.)." (I don't know what it means either!)

 

5) "What agency are you from?" "Who do you work for?" These questions occasionally come up. Be prepared for a truthful answer. I generally say "I'm a volunteer reporting data into the National Geodetic Survey." I might then add "They used to be called the Coast and Godetic Survey". More folks have heard of the old name and of course it's a subtle distraction. I don't say I'm doing it for a hobby (unless the situation seems right). New York tends to be all business, business, no time for pleasure.

 

6) Here's a form I've made. It's basically a datasheet with some window dressing. I've never had to show it to anyone but sometimes I've used it as an additional "prop". It's an MS word document and feel free to use it: Bench Mark Recovery Form sample.doc

 

The most important thing is to look like you belong and that you know what you are doing.

 

The one time I was turned away was at the entrance to a construction site. A young guy (like 19 years old), would just say "I'm not supposed to let anyone in here, sir". So in cases like that, or where I really can't get in without picture ID (like the oil loading docks in the Bronx) I just move on. There's plenty more out there.

 

Regards

Pb

 

Did you mean to post this on the 'espionage' board? These are all good suggestions. In the IT world we call this this type of hacking 'social engineering'.

 

Brendan

[+PFF]

Bench Mark Recovery Form

For entry into the National Geodetic Survey database

 

PID: KU0913 Station Name: SPY

Property owner: NYC RR Last Recovery: 1965

Agency code of the recovering organization: GEOCAC

 

Note to property owner/manager: the person seeking to recover the above bench mark is a volunteer member of the above organization collecting information for the National Geodetic Survey. Any assistance you may be able to provide is appreciated.

 

Name: Date:

 

Hi, Papa-Bear:

 

I like this form. Great job!

 

-Paul-

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Bench Mark Recovery Form

For entry into the National Geodetic Survey database

 

PID: KU0913 Station Name: SPY

Property owner: NYC RR Last Recovery: 1965

Agency code of the recovering organization: GEOCAC

 

Note to property owner/manager: the person seeking to recover the above bench mark is a volunteer member of the above organization collecting information for the National Geodetic Survey. Any assistance you may be able to provide is appreciated.

 

Name: Date:

 

Hi, Papa-Bear:

 

I like this form. Great job!

 

-Paul-

 

Thanks. And of course I know Amtrak curently runs the line, but hey, the datasheet says N.Y. Central. (NY Central went bankrupt when?), but just another distraction. BTW I never saw any RR police on the West Side line. I just stayed out of the way of trains going by, or the workers who drove to the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge to man the bridge tender. My biggest worry was the last 4 marks on the line which were visible from the bridge tender station if anyone there cared to look.

 

Pb

[mloser]

The New York Central never actually went bankrupt. It merged with the Pennsylvania RR in 1968 to form Penn Central, one of the most ill-fated and poorly planned mergers in the history of the world. Both railroads covered much of the same territory, they had hated each other since time began, and neither had the business to shore up the other. The rank and file immediately began calling the management either Red (PRR) or Green (NYC) depending on where they originated, and neither of the original railroad staffs would accept changes proposed by the other railroad. The Penn Central went bankrupt in 1971 (I think) and led to the formation of Amtrak in 1972 and Conrail in 1976.

 

Conrail had some hard times to start, but then began to thrive, and was finally sold to Norfolk Southern and CSX, which split it so closely along the lines of the old PRR and NYC that shared locomotives were sub-lettered PRR and NYC for a while after the split.

 

Amtrak has been a quasi-government corporation since its inception, relying on government money, but not really being a government agency. With the exception of the Northeast Corridor, which the West Side Line is not really a part of, it has had poor luck in pursuading travelers to return to rails.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I used to commute to school on the Erie-Lackawanna, then the New York and Long Branch. (Back in the 60's.) The NY&LB was a joint venture of the Pennsylvania and the Jersey Central. If I bought my monthly ticket in Red Bank, I could use it on either line, but if I bought it in Newark, it was only good on one or the other. When all the railroads went bankrupt, New Jersey Transit has done a great job of keeping the commuter lines running.

The Federal Government, on the other hand, seems to want to put Amtrak out of business. The glory of the old rail lines is gone! I can remember seeing the Phoebe Snow go through town, headed for Chicago! 2002 we took Amtrak from New York to Chicago. I'm sure it was a bad year, coming right after 9/11. All I can say is, if that's the best they can do, then the federal goverment has succeeded in ruining Amtrak. It was twice as expensive as flying, the service was terrible, and the equipment was malfunctioning. The only good thin was that we did get to experience the Altoona Curve!

[ArtMan]

The New York Central never actually went bankrupt. It merged with the Pennsylvania RR in 1968 to form Penn Central, one of the most ill-fated and poorly planned mergers in the history of the world. ...

 

It wasn't for nothing that Joseph R. Daughen's outstanding book on the the merger (originally published in 1971 and back — or still — in print now) was titled, "The Wreck of the Penn Central."

 

-ArtMan-