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A Couple Of Suggestions About Dnfs


Vinny & Sue Team
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First, some background, so you know where I am coming from and so that my prejudidices are fully disclosed beforehand: As some of you likely already know, I like to write relatively long and entertaining log entries on cache listing pages. And, I am one of those people who almost religiously logs DNFs, and I put very bit as much heart and care into them as I put into my find logs and other notes on the cache listing pages (BTW, I am the first to admit that my wife Sue tends to write much shorter log entries than do I...!) In fact, I feel that comprehensive and personalized log entries are one of the major threads that helps to hold our community together. Okay, having said that, now we can more onto my suggestions, below. . .

 

I very much wish that the stats for an account would also list all DNFs as well as all finds for that account. Why? I am personally every bit as much interested in the DNF logs of a cacher as I am in his or her finds. And, I would like other cachers to have the ability to easily find a catalog of all of my DNFs, much as my finds have been cataloged, without having to employ massive detective and hacker skills to located even a few of my DNF log entries!

 

And, since so many folks are numbers-conscious and have become DNF-shy, I think it might be a great idea to get rid of the frowning face which accompanies DNFs, and to replace it with a more fun symbol instead. Will these two simple actions totally stop the obsession with find counts or the weird trend toward not logging DNFs? No, not at all, but they may help, and in any case, they will make the site more user-friendly and more geo-community-friendly.

 

Okay, end of soapbox. Your thoughts and suggestions on these ideas are appreciated! Thanks! :laughing:

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I fully support this suggestion. As someone who usually says "it's fine the way it is," endorsing a basic change like this is rare for me.

 

I also like my DNF logs, and keeping track of my unresolved DNF's. Others enjoy reading the stories too, I'm told. So when the bookmark feature was introduced, I very quickly threw all my unresolved DNF's onto a shared bookmark list. See my signature line below. The list has gotten good feedback. If you like it, please add yours!

 

I wish we could reduce the "stigma" of a DNF log. There is nothing wrong about not finding a cache. If they were all easy, the game would get very boring. Many of the DNF misadventures are far, far more interesting than the easy grabs in the first spot I checked.

 

It is a bit of work to maintain my DNF bookmark list. If the site could facilitate easy access to all of a player's DNF's, that would eliminate the need to do that work. It would provide a gateway to some enjoyable reading.

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I like the idea but...

 

I think that making the DNFs a part of the profile "sticker" would lead to a bunch of people being less likely to log their DNFs. As is the case with caches that I have found, I've had a great time on most of my DNFs, and a horrific time on a couple...all are a part of my geocaching history.

 

I think that a head-scratching icon in place of the frowny face might de-stigmatize the DNF log option a bit, but maybe not.

 

A bookmark list will work for lots of people, but for people with lots of DNFs it will be a chore...

 

Jamie - NFA

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Good idea an icon change to a puzzled face would be good or maybe a man scrathing his chin thoughtfully kinda like jeremeys avatar :rolleyes:

As for including with your profile maybe as an opt in ie tick this box if you want DNF's to show many would do it just for the extra icon :laughing:

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I don't really see much value in a count of DNF logs as there are those who would not log there DNF's to increase there batting average. Also I would not support a change of the icon since the frowny icon accurately reflects how I feel after I fail to find a cache.

 

However I would like to see on the cache list pages an indicator on the line of the cache showing that you did not find it similar to the red check mark and gray line that is done for found caches. I would also like these indicators for finds and DNF's repeated in the header of the cache page itself.

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I fully support this suggestion. As someone who usually says "it's fine the way it is," endorsing a basic change like this is rare for me.

 

I also like my DNF logs, and keeping track of my unresolved DNF's. Others enjoy reading the stories too, I'm told. So when the bookmark feature was introduced, I very quickly threw all my unresolved DNF's onto a shared bookmark list. See my signature line below. The list has gotten good feedback. If you like it, please add yours!

 

I wish we could reduce the "stigma" of a DNF log. There is nothing wrong about not finding a cache. If they were all easy, the game would get very boring. Many of the DNF misadventures are far, far more interesting than the easy grabs in the first spot I checked.

 

It is a bit of work to maintain my DNF bookmark list. If the site could facilitate easy access to all of a player's DNF's, that would eliminate the need to do that work. It would provide a gateway to some enjoyable reading.

 

Lep, I agree... for me, it is too much work to maintain a DNF bookmark list. Displaying the DNFs would solve several problems. And, of course, the ability of display one's DNF's could be made an option -- an account holder could have the ability of truning on or off the display of their DNF counts/links -- this would satisfy the folks who HATE for others to see their DNF count or to read their DNFs. Me, I am very proud of my DNFs and the log entries, and just as proud of them as I am of my finds.

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I suggested a while back that DNFs be added to a total called "Total attempts." which includes both finds and DNFs. I say this because when I go caching, even if I don't find the cache, I consider that as a geocaching trip. I'd like my "stats" to reflect that, and like your suggestion, I'd like for that information be available through my profile. I'd like for people to click on my DNFs if they want.

 

I agree to some extent that publicizing DNFs will cause some people to not log them. However, I think those people will be more than offset by the people who realize a new emphasis on DNFs. If the site recognizes DNFs, people are more likely to take the time to write them. Right now, they're little more than an asterisk.

 

Jamie

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I'd like way to distinguish my outstanding DNFs from the ones I eventually found.

 

Another good idea. My DNF's end up in 4 catagoreis.

 

Finally Found.

Never Seeking Again with Extreme Prejudice.

Not Found Before Archived.

Never Made it Back.

 

The first catagory I'd like to see. The second is why they invented the ignore list. The third is just frustraing because you were still trying, and the last is a fact of life if you make a trip and don't get a chance to go back.

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I would be happy with this simple solution:

 

Right now we have (using kablooey as a sample cacher):

 

Caches found by: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?ul=kablooey

 

Caches hidden by: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?u=kablooey

 

How about just adding something like:

 

Caches DNF'd by: http://www.geocaching.com/seek/nearest.aspx?dnf=kablooey

 

--Marky

That would work. I am not as interested in statistics as I am in having a way to access some cool logs.

 

FYI: I've had 408 DNFs so far.

You must be doing it wrong. :rolleyes:

 

I *love* hearing numbers like that. But as a percentage of your find count, it's not out of line. My DNF rate is currently 7.28%.

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I suggested a while back that DNFs be added to a total called "Total attempts." which includes both finds and DNFs. I say this because when I go caching, even if I don't find the cache, I consider that as a geocaching trip. I'd like my "stats" to reflect that, and like your suggestion, I'd like for that information be available through my profile. I'd like for people to click on my DNFs if they want.

 

I agree to some extent that publicizing DNFs will cause some people to not log them. However, I think those people will be more than offset by the people who realize a new emphasis on DNFs. If the site recognizes DNFs, people are more likely to take the time to write them. Right now, they're little more than an asterisk.

 

Jamie

Jamie, excellent suggestion (for the "Total Attempts"), and excellent observations -- thanks much! I agree that if DNFs are recognized, then folks will likely start paying more attention to filing them and doing them with care.

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I think changing the icon is a very good idea. The only problem is that it makes my DNF coin obsolete. Well I am sure somebody will mint a new DNF coin with the new icon and everyone will buy it.

 

I think it would just make your DNF Coin more of a collector's item!

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I like the idea too.

 

One question, would it list every DNF, or just unresolved DNFs?

 

Instead of the the frowny <_< (I know, wrong color), how about the :mad: or :mad: ?

 

I would vastly prefer that the DNF list contain ALL DNFs, even if the cacher later found the cache, as I feel that all DNF logs are fun and have historical and community value. And to me, they are part of the record of my caching adventures. A vague analogy here is that we are currently able to see all the finds of a cacher, even if some of those caches have since been archived or disabled.

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I fully support this suggestion. As someone who usually says "it's fine the way it is," endorsing a basic change like this is rare for me.

 

I also like my DNF logs, and keeping track of my unresolved DNF's. Others enjoy reading the stories too, I'm told. So when the bookmark feature was introduced, I very quickly threw all my unresolved DNF's onto a shared bookmark list. See my signature line below. The list has gotten good feedback. If you like it, please add yours!

 

I wish we could reduce the "stigma" of a DNF log. There is nothing wrong about not finding a cache. If they were all easy, the game would get very boring. Many of the DNF misadventures are far, far more interesting than the easy grabs in the first spot I checked.

 

It is a bit of work to maintain my DNF bookmark list. If the site could facilitate easy access to all of a player's DNF's, that would eliminate the need to do that work. It would provide a gateway to some enjoyable reading.

I did the same thing when bookmark lists came out, and created a list of all of our DNFs. I made it shared and added it to our profile page. I didn't just include unresolved ones, though; I put them all in. I add the date before the cache name, so they're all listed in chronological order rather than alphabetical by cache name.

 

For each entry in the bookmark list, I include one of three icons:

icon_smile_question.gif = we probably should go back and look for these ones again.

icon_smile.gif = we eventually went back and found these.

icon_smile_sad.gif = either too far away for us to ever go back to, or they've been archived.

I also include a little description of the experience, direct links to the DNF log (or logs, if there was more than one on a given cache), and the eventual found-it log if there is one.

 

It was a lot of work initially, but now it is fairly easy to maintain. It's especially satisfying to update an unresolved DNF entry once we've finally found it. <_<

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It was a lot of work initially, but now it is fairly easy to maintain. It's especially satisfying to update an unresolved DNF entry once we've finally found it. <_<

 

A lot of work, yes, but that is a very impressive use of a bookmark list. I'm not sure I'm up to adding all of my DNFs into a list like that, but I'm considering it.

 

--Marky

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On the subject of DNF's, I was appalled to find the following log on one that we had to DNF yesterday.

" In my opinion, this is not what geocaching should be. This was our second visit, and the two of us spent at least another hour in good weather and broad daylight. Nothing!

We crawled all over everything, checked every marker, the entire fence, in and on every tree, moved every rock that would move, searched every blowdown, and poked our hands in every critter hole. Zip."

In MY opinion this is exactly what geocaching should be! The most recent two or three logs prior commented that it took two tries for this particular cache. We can't wait to go back to an interesting location to figure out what we missed.

I would certainly list my DNF's if it were a choice.

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I think this is a great idea and I would like to add my support to it.

 

Yes, the DNF listing option is a heck of a lot less effort for a cacher than having to create a DNF bookmark list!

The advantage to using a "DNFs I Want To Revisit" bookmark is that you can decide what goes on it. Some DNFs I have no intention of returning to.

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And the technology exist! You can list your DNF logs (on My Account page), so it shouldn't be that hard to implement.

Sorry, but for a geocacher of limited skills like myself, that option is an even less elegant solution than my bookmark list. The bookmark list is semi-automated. Modifying my profile means copying links, creating hyperlinks, etc.

 

My allocated profile bytes are taken up by other things, like cache find maps. It's not well-suited to house a database for regularly changing data like my DNF list. When my "Top 5% Greatest Cache Hunts" list maxed out my profile, I moved it to a bookmark list. I have many more DNF's than I have Top 5% Greatest Cache Hunts. ;)

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And the technology exist! You can list your DNF logs (on My Account page), so it shouldn't be that hard to implement.

Sorry, but for a geocacher of limited skills like myself, that option is an even less elegant solution than my bookmark list. The bookmark list is semi-automated. Modifying my profile means copying links, creating hyperlinks, etc.

 

My allocated profile bytes are taken up by other things, like cache find maps. It's not well-suited to house a database for regularly changing data like my DNF list. When my "Top 5% Greatest Cache Hunts" list maxed out my profile, I moved it to a bookmark list. I have many more DNF's than I have Top 5% Greatest Cache Hunts. ;)

 

I think you misunderstood The Jester. He's just saying that he can view his own DNFs on his "My Acount" page (not his profile). Since there is the ability to already show this in a nice list, making it public shouldn't be too much work.

 

--Marky

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