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What’s Going On Here? 2


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mid-'04 - Micro Spew ,

 

I keep seeing this, what is it? and why does it affect me? I started caching in Nov, 04

 

I believe that this cacher is saying that anything found after said date is considered trash caches. Park and Grabs, etc. It shouldn't affect you other than in his eyes your finds are suspect, because I believe from what I have seen him post that anything found after that date with some exceptions were not of the same quality of caches he found before said date.

Your assessment of my position, which as you know I have posted many times and on many threads, is MOSTLY correct.

 

One clarification, though: I'm not really saying that the quality of caches is not the same, it's the OVERALL quality of caches. One can still find quality caches, it just takes a lot more effort to do so, because of the white noise created in so many areas by Micro Spew . Mid '04 is MY OPINION of the unofficial time period when our game "took the wrong turn" in more than just a few selected metro areas.

 

By extension, I'm also saying that if you ran up fairly high cache Find numbers, the quality of your STATS is not the same if you found the majority of your caches since that time.

 

MY OPINION, your mileage may vary.

 

So, just to clarify things so I have it right. Since April 9, 2004 I have found 726 caches, which averages me at .95 caches a day. Since April 9, 2004 you have found 565 caches a day giving you an average of .74 caches a day. Where do we stand on levelness of caching experience? How does your extra 1206 cache finds before your said micro spew invasion weigh in on our caching experience.

 

I don't know you, but you have been caching a lot longer than I have and I consider you an elder. From what I have heard and casually browsed your profile, you seem legit, so I respect you. I just don't understand your stand point, which I may have misunderstood, that makes me feel like since I started just at close to mid Micro Spew, I have no validity in my find count.

Edited by 5¢
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We could make a 'Real men of genius' song for this.

 

Mr cheating pocket cache collecter

This Bud's for the pocket cache collector, who fearlessly find caches in other cacher's pockets

caches in pockets

Braving the scorn of the old school cachers in the forums

you weaselly cheater

So this Bud's for you, Mr. pocket cache collector, fearless padding your stats to erode the old-timer's credibility.

Mr cheating pocket cache coleh-he-hector!

 

OK, mid shift has officially given me too much forum time and not enough caching time.

(Channeling my best Larry the Cable Guy imitation)

Now THAT'S funny, I don't care who ya are! :P

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So, just to clarify things so I have it right. Since April 9, 2004 I have found 726 caches, which averages me at .95 caches a day. Since April 9, 2004 you have found 565 caches a day giving you an average of .74 caches a day. Where do we stand on levelness of caching experience? How does your extra 1206 cache finds before your said micro spew invasion weigh in on our caching experience.

 

I don't know you, but you have been caching a lot longer than I have and I consider you an elder. From what I have heard and casually browsed your profile, you seem legit, so I respect you. I just don't understand your stand point, which I may have misunderstood, that makes me feel like since I started just at close to mid Micro Spew, I have no validity in my find count.

Now if I had found 565 caches a day, THAT would be impressive!! (just pickin' on your little typo there) :P

 

Actually, I don't consider 726 caches since mid '04 to be "running up your stats on Micro Spew ". It's the many cachers who have run up literally thousands since then, mostly on metro area numbers runs, that I have limited respect for - IF THEY USE THE STATS AS SOME SORT OF MEASURING STICK. That's the key. If running up 3000+ finds since that time made them happy, I say God Bless 'Em (seriously). But if those people want to start any conversation/discussion with a reference to those stats and how they got 'em - sorry, this old schooler knows the difference between the effort required to run 'em up '04-'06 vs. running 'em up before that.

 

I don't consider myself to be a "better" cacher than anyone...ask any of the WeekNIGHT cachers in the Twin Cities (my workweek home the last several months) how badly I s*ck at this game sometimes! I'm just saying that if you play the stats game and it matters to you in terms of perception, it is MY OPINION that the timeframes DO MATTER.

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So, just to clarify things so I have it right. Since April 9, 2004 I have found 726 caches, which averages me at .95 caches a day. Since April 9, 2004 you have found 565 caches a day giving you an average of .74 caches a day. Where do we stand on levelness of caching experience? How does your extra 1206 cache finds before your said micro spew invasion weigh in on our caching experience.

 

I don't know you, but you have been caching a lot longer than I have and I consider you an elder. From what I have heard and casually browsed your profile, you seem legit, so I respect you. I just don't understand your stand point, which I may have misunderstood, that makes me feel like since I started just at close to mid Micro Spew, I have no validity in my find count.

Now if I had found 565 caches a day, THAT would be impressive!! (just pickin' on your little typo there) :P

 

 

I hear ya on what I didn't quote, and laugh at myself for what I did quote. As I said a few posts earlier.......I guess when it is all said and done, the people I have met who "cheat, are non puritan, traditionalist, whatever you want to call it" seem to be the biggest braggarts I have met or have heard about in this thing we call geocaching. I guess that is the point I don't get of the whole cheating aspect. It is bad enough they do it, but then they think you ought to respect their cheating find count to boot.

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So, just to clarify things so I have it right. Since April 9, 2004 I have found 726 caches, which averages me at .95 caches a day. Since April 9, 2004 you have found 565 caches a day giving you an average of .74 caches a day. Where do we stand on levelness of caching experience? How does your extra 1206 cache finds before your said micro spew invasion weigh in on our caching experience.

 

I don't know you, but you have been caching a lot longer than I have and I consider you an elder. From what I have heard and casually browsed your profile, you seem legit, so I respect you. I just don't understand your stand point, which I may have misunderstood, that makes me feel like since I started just at close to mid Micro Spew, I have no validity in my find count.

Now if I had found 565 caches a day, THAT would be impressive!! (just pickin' on your little typo there) :P

 

 

I hear ya on what I didn't quote, and laugh at myself for what I did quote. As I said a few posts earlier.......I guess when it is all said and done, the people I have met who "cheat, are non puritan, traditionalist, whatever you want to call it" seem to be the biggest braggarts I have met or have heard about in this thing we call geocaching. I guess that is the point I don't get of the whole cheating aspect. It is bad enough they do it, but then they think you ought to respect their cheating find count to boot.

I think we understand each other.

 

Anecdote I don't mind sharing publicly, comments welcomed (and I realize we've strayed off the original topic here, but it's pertinent because this is essentially a "stats" thread):

 

By mid-'04 I had basically "lapped the field" in terms of stats in the Deep Dixie states of LA/MS/AL. At one point I believe I had at least several hundred more total Finds than all but I think one other cacher in the 3 states. When I would attend a regional Event Cache, everyone wanted to meet me, and people wanted to hear what I had to say about caching - BECAUSE OF MY STATS. Now whether they liked me afterward or thought that I was the a** that I really am, you'd have to ask 'em. But, it was the STAT COUNT that got everyone's attention. I have admitted freely here and on other threads, I really did get a certain amount of ego gratification out of that. And I never had to brag about my stats...PEOPLE KNEW. In Deep Dixie we also had some friendly competition with our stats...it was a real motivator to keep caching. It certainly wasn't why I got into this game (I was a GPS geek when I discovered it in '02), but the ego grat thing was an unexpected bonus for me. (I ADMIT IT. Do others in other regions who are/were in similar situations? I wonder.)

 

By mid-'04, I was finding that every cache run I made to various regions and metro areas was a challenge to fight through so many more uninspired micros than caches that I considered to be of real value in terms of cache or location quality. At that point I cut back on my caching considerably, determined to start searching only and more for quality than for stats. The result was that suddenly many, many cachers quickly flew right by me on the stats chart...and it was clear how they did it.

 

Upon becoming "just another 1000+ finder" on the stats chart, I evolved into "just a respected old schooler", and actually, I'm fine with that. My "ego time" has passed, it's all good. BUT, as you say, the "new schooler" Numbers Ho's, who ran 'em up in the last 2 years on Spew and on Pocket Caches, multi-event-finds, etc etc., and then make it a big deal to brag on their stats all the time...THAT'S where I say: Old schoolers, especially old school Numbers Ho's like I was, know the difference.

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So, just to clarify things so I have it right. Since April 9, 2004 I have found 726 caches, which averages me at .95 caches a day. Since April 9, 2004 you have found 565 caches a day giving you an average of .74 caches a day. Where do we stand on levelness of caching experience? How does your extra 1206 cache finds before your said micro spew invasion weigh in on our caching experience.

 

I don't know you, but you have been caching a lot longer than I have and I consider you an elder. From what I have heard and casually browsed your profile, you seem legit, so I respect you. I just don't understand your stand point, which I may have misunderstood, that makes me feel like since I started just at close to mid Micro Spew, I have no validity in my find count.

Now if I had found 565 caches a day, THAT would be impressive!! (just pickin' on your little typo there) :P

 

 

I hear ya on what I didn't quote, and laugh at myself for what I did quote. As I said a few posts earlier.......I guess when it is all said and done, the people I have met who "cheat, are non puritan, traditionalist, whatever you want to call it" seem to be the biggest braggarts I have met or have heard about in this thing we call geocaching. I guess that is the point I don't get of the whole cheating aspect. It is bad enough they do it, but then they think you ought to respect their cheating find count to boot.

I think we understand each other.

 

Anecdote I don't mind sharing publicly, comments welcomed (and I realize we've strayed off the original topic here, but it's pertinent because this is essentially a "stats" thread):

 

By mid-'04 I had basically "lapped the field" in terms of stats in the Deep Dixie states of LA/MS/AL. At one point I believe I had at least several hundred more total Finds than all but I think one other cacher in the 3 states. When I would attend a regional Event Cache, everyone wanted to meet me, and people wanted to hear what I had to say about caching - BECAUSE OF MY STATS. Now whether they liked me afterward or thought that I was the a** that I really am, you'd have to ask 'em. But, it was the STAT COUNT that got everyone's attention. I have admitted freely here and on other threads, I really did get a certain amount of ego gratification out of that. And I never had to brag about my stats...PEOPLE KNEW. In Deep Dixie we also had some friendly competition with our stats...it was a real motivator to keep caching. It certainly wasn't why I got into this game (I was a GPS geek when I discovered it in '02), but the ego grat thing was an unexpected bonus for me. (I ADMIT IT. Do others in other regions who are/were in similar situations? I wonder.)

 

By mid-'04, I was finding that every cache run I made to various regions and metro areas was a challenge to fight through so many more uninspired micros than caches that I considered to be of real value in terms of cache or location quality. At that point I cut back on my caching considerably, determined to start searching only and more for quality than for stats. The result was that suddenly many, many cachers quickly flew right by me on the stats chart...and it was clear how they did it.

 

Upon becoming "just another 1000+ finder" on the stats chart, I evolved into "just a respected old schooler", and actually, I'm fine with that. My "ego time" has passed, it's all good. BUT, as you say, the "new schooler" Numbers Ho's, who ran 'em up in the last 2 years on Spew and on Pocket Caches, multi-event-finds, etc etc., and then make it a big deal to brag on their stats all the time...THAT'S where I say: Old schoolers, especially old school Numbers Ho's like I was, know the difference.

 

Nicely put, especially the last paragraph. The only point I have is to add to your last sentence. Some of us New School are actually (pardon my new school lingo) Kickin it old school.

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or example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity? Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of? Besides intrinsic rewards and milestones what does a cacher have to gain by playing this game? When someone, somewhere, logs a -legit- find or logs a -creative- find what effect does it really have on you as individual participating in this activity

 

As I pointed out earlier, what makes these people think its OK to use this website's servers to store logs for caches that aren't listed here? Borderline thievery if you ask me.

<snip>

 

This is bizarre since there are other popular ways to put thing on the web. Blogs for one.

 

Geocaching had its start on UUNET. All these alternative cache finding methods makes one wonder if it was good idea to leave UUNET at all.

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I just don't get it. When I come home from finding caches, I have (usually) pleasant memories of the walk, the search, the new places I've been shown. If somebody says by their cache that they have a great trail to show me, I don't scan maps for a quicker way to get there. It's the experience I enjoy, and the smiley is a part of the record of my geocaching experience.

I'm not asking in a snarky way, I'm honestly curious. Without even approaching the ethics question, I just don't comprehend how that feeling can be replicated by logging multiple finds at events, by sitting home logging archived caches, or by logging PC's. Can someone please explain? Team GeoBlast?

 

I didn't even know what a pocket cache was until this thread. I also never thought about checking someone's profile to see how many finds they have and then using it as any kind of a measure of the person or their knowledge.

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Forgive me, I did not look up your profile to see how many or what type of finds you have, but from your posts it seemed that you were defending the logging practices being debated here. I truly cannot conceive why racking up smileys would be anyone's primary goal.

The few event caches I've been to, everyone has been extremely friendly and eager to get to know each other; they are not breaking into sullen cliques. No artificial stimulus like pocket caches has been necessary to get people to say hello. And how the pleasure of "beating the system" by logging archived caches from the comfort of one's computer chair compares with going outdoors and getting a little sun on your back is totally beyond me. I simply don't understand what pleasure would be derived from this, cheating or not. I can't think of any reason TO do it, except to run up one's numbers, and that seems silly to me. Living real life is so much more interesting. If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

Edited by bumblingbs
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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

Edited by lonesumdove
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You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion. ...

How many finds does it take before your opinion counts?

 

Similarly, I've found very few caches (comparatively) in the last two years. Does that mean that my opinion used to be relevant, but no longer is? (Some will agree that it never was. <_< )

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This is one of the reasons I don't log online, although I AM a purist and only find traditional caches.

No rankings.

No judgements.

No worries.

 

Just having fun finding caches. Nobody's business how many I have, or where I was on any given day.

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I didn't even know what a pocket cache was until this thread. I also never thought about checking someone's profile to see how many finds they have and then using it as any kind of a measure of the person or their knowledge.

I check someone's stats on a few occasions. If someone starts a thread about a cache that they recently found, I'll look at his/her finds to try to figure out what cache we are talking about so I have as much info on the issue as possible. Also, if someone with few posts makes a comment that relates to his geocaching experience, I'll check his stats to see if he's full of it.

Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

If they are legitimate caches, then the cache owner should have them listed on GC.com. Once they are listed, you can log your finds. If they are not to be listed on GC.com, you should not log your find on GC.com.

 

What if these caches don't meet the listing guidelines for GC.com? Why should a find for a cache that doesn't meet the guidelines be added to a player's GC.com stats?

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You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion. ...

How many finds does it take before your opinion counts?

 

Similarly, I've found very few caches (comparatively) in the last two years. Does that mean that my opinion used to be relevant, but no longer is? (Some will agree that it never was. <_< )

I'm not sure how many finds you need but I added a "truth" in numbers area to my porofile. Where I report my DNFs, event caches, etc. Add them to my total cache found count to see my total caching experience in numbers. There arn't many but then I don't a very high find count to begin with, just great memories. I'm beggining to think that like people in this thread your DNF count should be an option to show on your profile.

Edited by Glenn
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(snip) ......I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find?

 

If the caches are not listed as caches on GC.com, why would you want to log them as finds there?

I totally don't understand. It can only be about increasing your numbers.

This is a bizarre practice.

 

I don't care how many caches you have, but I am interested in the logging method.

If you have 500 finds and 300 of them are multiple finds on an archived cache for temporary caches placed for 1 day, at 1 event, I will be highly inclined to scoff. You didn't find GC.com approved caches, so why would you log them on GC? Because 35 other people at the event did, too? Is that what makes them legitimate?

 

I've been to an event. I logged that event. Once. We placed caches for the event. REAL caches. Caches that were listed on GC.com. So if you found a cache that night, you could log it with no black cloud hanging over your stats. Because it was a real cache. They were still there after the event. Some of them are still there today, months and months later. It wasn't that complicated a concept.

 

The justification that the temporary event caches were fun, or hard, or a lot of work for someone to place doesn't neccessitate your logging of them on a site that doesn't even list them as caches <_<

 

My post is honestly not meant to belittle anyone, but there really should be a good explanation of exactly why this practice is being done. Somebody please justify why these finds SHOULD be considered legitimate, when they would not be and could not be approved for listing at GC.com

 

It just doesn't make any sense, aside from racking up numbers.

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

That’s the very same logic racists use to justify their behavior. “I’m just going to a rally, it doesn’t hurt anyone…”

 

That’s the very same logic pedophiles use to justify their behavior. “It’s just pictures; I’m not hurting anyone…”

 

OK, admittedly harsh examples, but that’s the very same logic used by anyone who knows that what they are doing is wrong.

 

If your version of playing the game makes it necessary to tell a lie, I think it would be better for the health of the game if you played it that way on another site. You may have found several caches at these events, but they were not geocaches. Why is it necessary for those who found them to lie by claiming to have found other (archived) caches or log the same event a dozen times? There is the option of posting a note you know.

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

 

I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. Are you implying that you would not have had fun if you went to the event, found all the temporary and pocket caches and were not allowed to log them as a find on an archived cache? I am sure that the event was a good time, but if there was no smiley for finding these temporary caches then would cachers bother to find them?

 

Fake finds do affect other cachers that enjoy the competition. If I go into my basement and start printing up counterfeit $100 bills, I could get into a lot of trouble, for some reason as I have heard that the goverment wont allow this. <_< But why? It wouldn't hurt anyone. It just makes everyone else's $100 bill worth a little less...

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

While on vacation last year in Colorado, we met up with a local cacher and went out for the day. During that time we hunted and found a new cache from one of the other listing sites. We were #2 & #3 to find it. Like you I used my GPS, spent my time finding it - is it not legitimate? Yes - but only on the site it is listed on! It's not listed on GC so I CAN NOT log it here - why should you want to log caches not listed here? Please explain.

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You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion. ...

How many finds does it take before your opinion counts?

 

Similarly, I've found very few caches (comparatively) in the last two years. Does that mean that my opinion used to be relevant, but no longer is? (Some will agree that it never was. <_< )

You've taken my quote that you used above out of context. There is no "correct" answer to your question, and it depends on the nature of whatever happens to be the discussion. My point is just that if you (not YOU, sbell, but the generic "you") ran up your numbers in Micro Spew areas (or on the types of "fake finds" that were the original basis for this now-barely-in-control thread), in my "old school" view you most likely haven't experienced as wide a cross-section of cache types, styles, and locations, as those of us who ran up similar numbers pre mid-'04 (my unofficial date of blah blah blah). Therefore, in my "old school" view, your stats don't carry as much "worth" to me.

 

Again, this argument / point of view of mine is ONLY APPLICABLE if you choose to use your stats as the basis for your credibility. I'll respect the opinion of ANYONE, new or old to our game, and engage in friendly, respectful discussion with anyone, regardless of experience (and if you've read my posts around here over the years, and unlike a whole lot of people around here, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong). But the moment your stats enter the equation or discussion, I'm gonna question when and how you ran 'em up.

 

Micro Spew has changed the fundamental nature of our game - NOT FOR THE BETTER. MY OPINION, your mileage may vary. Have I driven this point home with a sledge hammer hard enough yet???

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Please stay on topic, this thread is not about how many or if your find count is an indicator of your opinion’s worthiness. If you would like to debate that, please begin another thread.

 

A couple more thoughts. I think some players have become confused about a key element of the game. The Found It smiley is not a reward. You don’t earn it because you tried really hard, or found the location, or reported the missing cache to the owner, it merely represents that you were successful in finding the cache. It says you found a geocache, not just found something somewhere for some reason. Maybe it should just be a checkmark instead of a smiley, would that make more sense?

 

Where can these sort of practices lead? How about this? I can hide a whiskey, ammunition, and knives cache that requires you only trade those sorts of items. It won’t get listed on the GC site so inside the cache I’ll just put the info for one of my archived caches giving permission for people to log that one so their find count is accurate. Along comes sweet Polly Purebread and places a real geocache ten feet away. It gets approved because the approver doesn’t see any other caches in the area. The next thing you know, I’m getting logs on my archived cache saying they found a damnn MacDonald’s toy in my cache.

Edited by Criminal
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Please stay on topic, this thread is not about how many or if your find count is an indicator of your opinion’s worthiness. If you would like to debate that, please begin another thread.

That sub-topic was a natural evolution of the "truth in stats" aspect of your original post. As ever, the discussion was engaged, and proceeded accordingly. As the biggest "mouth" on this sub-topic, I apologize - I certainly didn't mean to hijack your thread...it just, uh, happened.

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Please stay on topic, this thread is not about how many or if your find count is an indicator of your opinion’s worthiness. If you would like to debate that, please begin another thread.

That sub-topic was a natural evolution of the "truth in stats" aspect of your original post. As ever, the discussion was engaged, and proceeded accordingly. As the biggest "mouth" on this sub-topic, I apologize - I certainly didn't mean to hijack your thread...it just, uh, happened.

It's a good topic and should be discussed (again), however, in its own thread it would get better coverage. No biggie.

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

Logging event caches multiple times isn't the issue in this thread, although it has been used in some examples. The legitimacy of muliple find/attended logs at the same event is a related but seperate issue and it is being debated in other threads. The issue most are trying to understand here is why people log finds on long gone and archived geocaches. So far the conclusion has been only one. To increase your find count. The same exact thing as a pocket cache can be done using a travel bug or geocoin (Is that a travel bug/geocoin in your pocket or are you just happy to see me?). Something that is ment to travel from place to place as people log it. Except that when you log a travel bug/geocoin your cache find count doesn't increase.

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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

 

Harsh comparison - yes and not appreciated either...

 

"You have found several caches at these events, they were not geocaches" Huh? what WERE they then?

 

People complain here all the time about abdandoned caches littering up places, these are removed after the event is over and the park is again "clean." We logged these as cache finds, not as an event logged over and over.

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

 

Please explain to me why its OK for you to use this website's server space to store logs for caches that aren't listed here. You wouldn't log a terracache or navicache that you found on this site (or would you?), so why is it OK to log private caches?

Edited by briansnat
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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

If you found a geocache listed on this site, you did not.

 

"You have found several caches at these events, they were not geocaches" Huh? what WERE they then?
A geocache is a cache listed on the geocaching website.

 

People complain here all the time about abdandoned caches littering up places, these are removed after the event is over and the park is again "clean." We logged these as cache finds, not as an event logged over and over.

If you didn't log pocket caches or the same event multiple times, then this thread does not apply to you.

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4wheelen -

 

I do think people some people would still come to the event whether they log the finds or not. Like I said before, it is a matter of how each player decides to play. How are my finds that day - any different than say someone who drives up to a Wallyworld parking lot and finds a micro (I have a few of these too). Why log the finds? For the same reason anybody does, to keep track of my own personal finds and for the fun of it. I am not competing with anybody but myself. I could care less how many cache finds you have or anybody else for that matter. It is fun for me to see my number grow only from the standpoint that it reminds me I am doing something healthy for myself and reminds me of all the fun places I have been and the people I have met.

 

"Please explain to me why its OK for you to use this website's server space to store logs for caches that aren't listed here. You wouldn't log a terracache or navicache that you found on this site (or would you?), so why is it OK to log private caches?"

 

I understand your point and wish there was a different way to do it. There are limited spaces to hide caches in a small town, it is just geography. The event planners when doing this are trying to provide fun activity for the people attending and keeping it relatively reasonable on driving, etc...

Edited by lonesumdove
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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

 

Looking at your profile, I see you have logged one event 29 times. Please tell me how you can be in the same place at the same time 29 times. Is it a multiple personality disorder? It’s a whole binary thing going on, either you attended, or you did not.

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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

 

Harsh comparison - yes and not appreciated either...

 

"You have found several caches at these events, they were not geocaches" Huh? what WERE they then?

 

People complain here all the time about abdandoned caches littering up places, these are removed after the event is over and the park is again "clean." We logged these as cache finds, not as an event logged over and over.

 

You're talking about geocaches, little g, and we are talking about Geocaches, big g. A little g geocache covers all types of geocaches, those listed on GC.com or other websites or maybe not even listed at all. A big g geocache is listed on GC.com. When an event is listed the listing is for the event itself and not the events geocaches (little g). As for discussion on events and event caches do a search in the forums for event caches.

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To log these, you have to go through the event page. The caches are temporary and removed after the event is over, so basically this is the only way to do it. For instance, I started in the small park, found the caches there, then went into town, found some there, etc... Of couse, I did not attend the event 29 times - but rather found that many caches (did not think I found 29, hmmm).

 

Question though. This weekend the Wisconsin Geocaching Association is holding an event in Peninsula State Park and is placing 55 temporary caches throughout the park. Do you have a suggestion on how to better log these? I would think you would suggest not logging them at all? If finds were broken down into "event finds" versus regular finds somehow on geocaching.com would that work? I don't know. I just think the events are a great idea, they are fun and the finding of these temporary caches only adds to this. If there is a better way, lots of smart people here I am sure could figure out how to do it.

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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

 

Looking at your profile, I see you have logged one event 29 times. Please tell me how you can be in the same place at the same time 29 times. Is it a multiple personality disorder? It’s a whole binary thing going on, either you attended, or you did not.

 

You say you log these things in part to remind you of all the fun places you have been and the people you have met. I don't see how logging that you attended an event 15 times accomplishes this any more than logging once. If you want to keep track of these private caches for the memory's sake, you can simply note them all in a single log.

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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

...

"You have found several caches at these events, they were not geocaches" Huh? what WERE they then?

My response to this was way up above:

If they are legitimate caches, then the cache owner should have them listed on GC.com. Once they are listed, you can log your finds. If they are not to be listed on GC.com, you should not log your find on GC.com.

 

What if these caches don't meet the listing guidelines for GC.com? Why should a find for a cache that doesn't meet the guidelines be added to a player's GC.com stats?

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To log these, you have to go through the event page. The caches are temporary and removed after the event is over, so basically this is the only way to do it. For instance, I started in the small park, found the caches there, then went into town, found some there, etc... Of couse, I did not attend the event 29 times - but rather found that many caches (did not think I found 29, hmmm).

 

Question though. This weekend the Wisconsin Geocaching Association is holding an event in Peninsula State Park and is placing 55 temporary caches throughout the park. Do you have a suggestion on how to better log these? I would think you would suggest not logging them at all? If finds were broken down into "event finds" versus regular finds somehow on geocaching.com would that work? I don't know. I just think the events are a great idea, they are fun and the finding of these temporary caches only adds to this. If there is a better way, lots of smart people here I am sure could figure out how to do it.

 

Agreed, events are loads of fun! Temporary caches are not allowed on this site. People can simply mention in their (one) attended log that they found 55 out of the 55 temp caches.

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Please stay on topic, this thread is not about how many or if your find count is an indicator of your opinion’s worthiness. If you would like to debate that, please begin another thread.

 

The debate can't even get off the ground unless the people debating agree that the find count of an individual Geocacher has relevance to anyone but the individual.

 

A couple more thoughts. I think some players have become confused about a key element of the game. The Found It smiley is not a reward. You don’t earn it because you tried really hard, or found the location, or reported the missing cache to the owner, it merely represents that you were successful in finding the cache. It says you found a geocache, not just found something somewhere for some reason. Maybe it should just be a checkmark instead of a smiley, would that make more sense?

 

Can you send me a link to the GCing site that goes into this in greater detail?

 

Where can these sort of practices lead? How about this? I can hide a whiskey, ammunition, and knives cache that requires you only trade those sorts of items.

 

::Sigh::

 

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4wheelen -

 

I do think people some people would still come to the event whether they log the finds or not. Like I said before, it is a matter of how each player decides to play. How are my finds that day - any different than say someone who drives up to a Wallyworld parking lot and finds a micro (I have a few of these too). Why log the finds? For the same reason anybody does, to keep track of my own personal finds and for the fun of it. I am not competing with anybody but myself. I could care less how many cache finds you have or anybody else for that matter. It is fun for me to see my number grow only from the standpoint that it reminds me I am doing something healthy for myself and reminds me of all the fun places I have been and the people I have met.

 

"Please explain to me why its OK for you to use this website's server space to store logs for caches that aren't listed here. You wouldn't log a terracache or navicache that you found on this site (or would you?), so why is it OK to log private caches?"

 

I understand your point and wish there was a different way to do it. There are limited spaces to hide caches in a small town, it is just geography. The event planners when doing this are trying to provide fun activity for the people attending and keeping it relatively reasonable on driving, etc...

 

When you log an event as a "attended" you can write in the log (one) all of the temporary caches you found that day. That would be a good record to look back to and reflect on. The way it appears now is that you attended 21 events, when there was only one - Geocachers invade Kewaskum.

If finds were broken down into "event finds" versus regular finds somehow on geocaching.com would that work?

Yes, I think that would be better, although whether the count should be added to your total find count would be a matter of opinion.

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... This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun....

 

Right there is the issue. Anytime someone tells me "This is supposed to be fun" they are usually about to chew my butt in the next sentance because what they are really saying is "This is supposed to be fun for me and I really don't give a ratts a** about you or anyone else."

 

Yes it's about your fun but it's also about my fun, and others fun, and that all of the sudden changes things. If I'm not having fun as a cache owner I'll take my ball and go home. If in having your fun you tear up the grounds you are removing other peoples fun because the land manager isn't going to like caching in general.

 

If you realy want an eduction (and I don't think you do since it's about your "fun" read a small article called "The Tragedy of the Commons" then think about geocaching in general because that's what we play it on, "the commons". You impact my ability to participate in geocaching even if I will never meet you in my life.

 

What's that have to do with logging dead caches? Actually more than you might think but you are going to have to figure it out yourself.

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Okay I hear ya. I can understand how these numbers, etc... would upset some people and that they don't consider them legitimate. You have all made good points. You are right, I could have had one log and listed all 21 caches on that log. You have made me rethink what I stated in the beginning about the numbers. I guess, it does matter - to me. From a personal standpoint, I have fun seeing the number go up. Only because I am doing it for myself. No competition from me, I honestly don't care who gets how many and when, I just hope they are out having fun like me.

 

Renegade - I posted this before I read your post. How exactly am I affecting your personal ability to particpate in the game?

Edited by lonesumdove
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From a personal standpoint, I have fun seeing the number go up.

That's how it started for me as well. But as you read in my posts above in this thread, as my count continued up and flew past others, eventually my Find count started to matter to other people in my region. Fortunately, all my Finds were "legit" per the original spirit of our game, so any "cred" associated with my Find count was also legit.

 

It matters. Just my own personal experience, your mileage may vary.

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Allow me to clarify about the event in question here. I attended it. I spent the entire day searching for well hidden caches (temporary caches and some not temporary) that the event planner took great care in hiding and thinking through. We were out on a very cold morning, having fun meeting other cachers. When I got home, I logged every single one of the 21 caches I found. I used my GPS, I spent a lot of time trying to find some of them and even had my husband climbing high onto a branch over a river to get one. Are these not legitimate?

 

Criminal - why do you or anybody else care how many caches I find? This hobby/sport whatever you want to call it is for MY fun. If there was some ultimate end million dollar prize for the most caches found, then maybe it would matter, but there isn't. People have fun in different ways and if you had spent an entire day and put countless miles on your feet looking for caches you would not log them??

 

Nobody was hurt by logging these finds, it was a good day of family fun, socializing with new friends. What is wrong with that? Please explain.

 

edited for spelling error

 

Are they listed on this site? If not, than no, they are not legitimate. Yes, they may be caches, but not ones listed here, so why log the find here. I've found a couple of caches over on Terracaching, should I log them as finds here, since they were caches and I did use my GPS? No.

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The logging of multiple temp caches at events so that "my numbers" goes up, is IMO the same as logging a multi-cache several times because there were several micros to found before the final. You punched in the numbers, you spent time finding the micros, you had fun (I hope), so why not get the extra "finds"? Because they are all part of that one cache, just as temp caches are part of that event. To me there isn't a difference.

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Okay, I am STILL not clear on your point. How is my FINDING a cache a lie???? I DID find them, I loaded the coordinates into my GPS, walked to them and FOUND them? I did not lie about anything.

 

Harsh comparison - yes and not appreciated either...

 

"You have found several caches at these events, they were not geocaches" Huh? what WERE they then?

 

People complain here all the time about abdandoned caches littering up places, these are removed after the event is over and the park is again "clean." We logged these as cache finds, not as an event logged over and over.

 

 

I think that one of the points being made is that if the cache does not meet the listing guidelines and/or it is not listed on gc.com, and therefore not available to others to find and log after the event, it is obviously not a sanctioned cache on this website.

 

They were "caches", but not Geocachesand should not be logged on this site.

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4wheelen -

 

I am not competing with anybody but myself. I could care less how many cache finds you have or anybody else for that matter. It is fun for me to see my number grow only from the standpoint that it reminds me I am doing something healthy for myself and reminds me of all the fun places I have been and the people I have met.

 

 

This is a fundamental difference between you and some others commenting in this thread and it also represents the core of this discussion if you ask me. I am going to go out on a limb and say that you haven't been spending your time looking up other Geocachers stats and bemoaning their legitimacy, you are playing the game the way you want to. The way you play is honest in your mind and the number of smileys in your profile has only a personal significance to you.

 

In summary: You are just having fun with your chosen form of recreation.

 

I am also going to guess that it's probably come as a surprise to you that people you will never meet living 1000's of miles away from you would be lurking on an event web page and be attacking you in an internet forum for the way you choose to play a game? Let me repeat that, a game.

 

I have a possible solution to offer instead of more bellyaching. Let's stop trying to fit the round peg of a game into the square peg of a sport.

 

How about everyone that is so adamant that things like your find count and legitimacy of the types of caches stop this futile exercise of insisting that the people playing this game in 221 plus countries play the game LIKE YOU DO? Why not come clean and say that you want Geocaching to be a competition and the participants treat it like a true sport where a strict adherence to a standards and guidelines should be followed?

 

A new designation of Geocacher would need to be formed, for the sake of this discussion let's call it a Master Cacher. To obtain this designation or status, (heck I'll even give you your own icon) each of your logged finds is subject to review of a board. Better yet, let's have the sport police itself. Any other Master Cacher can audit any logged find of another cacher and challenge it. Any disputes would then go to a review board similar to the cache reviewer looking at new caches.

 

Then instead of doing all this silly research on one another to try to figure out if they play the game right, you would just see the icon AND KNOW. Before someone rails on me for being off topic, I think I will start a new thread. I hope some of you will take the time to comment.

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The caches are temporary and removed after the event is over, so basically this is the only way to do it.

Geocaching.com does not list temporary caches. As a result, the fact that the caches were temporary means that they do not qualify as geocaching.com geocaches.

 

Question though. This weekend the Wisconsin Geocaching Association is holding an event in Peninsula State Park and is placing 55 temporary caches throughout the park. Do you have a suggestion on how to better log these?

If the WGA wants you to log them, perhaps it needs to set up its own server space and logging application, or else list the caches on another site, because the caches in question do not qualify as geocaching.com geocaches.

 

I don't understand why this is so confusing to people.

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Question though. This weekend the Wisconsin Geocaching Association is holding an event in Peninsula State Park and is placing 55 temporary caches throughout the park. Do you have a suggestion on how to better log these?

 

Do each of those 55 caches have a GC number, if not they are not Geocaches from GC.com and should not be logged on the GC.com website.

Gee what could be simpler

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