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What’s Going On Here? 2


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Additionally, isn't an archived "pocket cache" that is still in play against the rules? Would a pocket cache itself be against the rules?

 

Specifically, the rule violated would be the one that prohibits caches where you must do something extra that is not listed on the cache page. I'm not sure of the specifics, but the gist is to prevent folks from having to email the owner for further details. Sounds kinda like the same if you have to ask the owner for the cache.

 

The examples provided in an above post are listed as traditionals. It's obvious they are not. They travel and they are not at the listed coordinates.

 

Shouldn't these be locked down?

 

It certainly appears to be a way to get around the guidelines regarding temporary (and possibly moving) caches. I guarantee if they were submitted for review they would not be published. Hey, that could be a new way to beat the system.

First let me state for the record that you'll find no pocket caches or event caches for that matter in my list of finds, but I do occasionally cheat at solitaire...

 

But really, who cares if people pull this crap. We all know they're only cheating themselves. The only thing it does is pad their stats, and who cares about that anyway. I mean, if it's about the hunt, not the smiley, who cares about cheating number Hos. If there were some perks for making the 1K club, then it'd be another story.

 

I think this is it, in a nutshell. It seems like a whole lot of time and energy in these forums is expended on how -others- choose to play the game on an individual level, how legit the stats of -others- are, and so on. All of this appears to be done in the name of the preservation of the integrity of the game. Sometimes, I think I am reading about a different game and for me, as an individual person playing this game, all it does is generate more questions.

 

For example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity? Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of? Besides intrinsic rewards and milestones what does a cacher have to gain by playing this game? When someone, somewhere, logs a -legit- find or logs a -creative- find what effect does it really have on you as individual participating in this activity?

 

Perhaps my viewpoint is a bit too simplistic for some of you because I truly am unconcerned with my stats or those of others. However, I think anyone who can make the same claim might relate well to it. I know that all I really have control of is how -I play- the game and what logging a find means to me. It seems to me if all this energy expended worrying about what others do was channeled back into -the game- itself by participating in grassroots activities like putting together a great cache or planning your next caching adventure, you’d all see the incremental rise in the integrity of the game that you seem to be seeking.

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This event was all about multiple attendances. Must be a severe case of schizophrenia to say you occupied the same space and time a dozen or more times.

Look at all those high numbers! Wow, I'm impressed.

 

Wow is right! 3 Events equals 450 "attended's"

 

what carp . . . :rolleyes:

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I've been following this thread for the past few days, and so far arguments for allowing "pocket caches" really haven't gotten anywhere close to changing the opinion that I started with, which was: "Wow, that's stupid" :rolleyes:

 

I'll admit I'm a newer cacher, but to me all we really have as geocachers is our integrity. This is why I've only done one Virtual cache, and one Webcam (I like trying the variety) but I'm not going out of my way to do more...I like leaving evidince that I've been there. To me, if it's loggable on GC.com, it's loggable as a "find" or "attended" or whatever ONCE. I do somewhat understand some peoples opinions with the multiple attended logs (well, I did find a bunch of real temp caches) but to me, that's part of the fun of the event. I have no problem with event caches because they have been great ways to meet people, and I'll admit to some icon hunting <_< but every one I've at least handled and checked out the coin individually. What's nice right now in MN is we've got a bunch of people releasing thier activated coins to travel, which is getting back to what they were intended for.

 

But yes, I know I'm using my own moral compass to decide what's correct in my mind and what isn't. In reality, I've got a lot more respect for the high number cachers that, when I check they're profile, I see one log per event. And, the other side, I've got a lot LESS respect for cachers that have 50+ event's logs, but only 5 different events. But that's just me...I'm still going to go out to find caches, and have friendly number competitions with others that seem to have the same opinion on what's loggable and what isn't.

 

sorry for the ramble, I just wanted to get my opinion out there...to summarize: PC's dumb, multi-event logs dumb...but just my opinion.

 

Celticwulf

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For example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity?
Um, no... if it were just an individual activity, why bother logging your finds online? The very thing that makes geocaching so great is the community and the social aspects.

 

Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of?
It's not competition. More like cooperation. Dishonesty hurts any social activity, not just competition.
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or example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity? Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of? Besides intrinsic rewards and milestones what does a cacher have to gain by playing this game? When someone, somewhere, logs a -legit- find or logs a -creative- find what effect does it really have on you as individual participating in this activity

 

As I pointed out earlier, what makes these people think its OK to use this website's servers to store logs for caches that aren't listed here? Borderline thievery if you ask me.

 

Also, as one who was ignorant of these things until recently, I could have easily started seeing these "found it" logs for an archived cache and been tricked into wasting my time and gas going after a cache that was not there. That's how it could effect me.

 

Finally, as Fizzymagic pointed out, rampant cheating causes everyone's numbers to be looked at with suspicion. Some people take pride in their legit find counts and don't appreciate that.

Edited by briansnat
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That 'devolvement' happened years ago.

 

Now, get out there and go find a cache!

 

Why bother? "Finding" them seems irrelevant. :rolleyes:

 

Irrelevant to WHO?

 

If the answer to that is ME, then perhaps you should seek another more relevant activity.

 

If the answer to that is OTHERS, I think you are missing the pink elephant in the middle of the room. According to the front page of GC.com there was 199,952 logs entered on the site in the last 7 days. How many of those cachers do you think are concerning themselves with the relevance of your finds?

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I have deleted all of my finds that were Pocket Caches. I lost 13 "finds" and now am back below 100. But I think I am more proud of my 91 than I would ever be with my 104 now knowing what I know.

 

I applaud Eric for his honesty and inetgrity.

What folks are doing here is not the best example we can offer the younger cachers in the family.

And in todays society the younger generation needs all the leadership they can get in morals, values & honor.

If I attend an event I will make one event entry to note my attendance & not make it a "multiple entry event".

The few caches I have logged have been visited at the coords listed & found using a GPSr.

I fail to see the fun or honesty in sitting around a picnic table running a paper chase.

 

JMHO...JW

 

edit for spelling

Edited by RubiconJW
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Finally, as Fizzymagic pointed out, rampant cheating causes everyone's numbers to be looked at with suspicion. Some people take pride in their legit find counts and don't appreciate that.

Utterly perfect analogy (in my mind): Major League Baseball stats accumulated BEFORE the Steroid Era vs. SINCE/AFTER.

 

So are we playing baseball here, and/or getting paid somehow? Of course not. But, to some/many people, the stats, and their legitimacy, DO matter.

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Finally, as Fizzymagic pointed out, rampant cheating causes everyone's numbers to be looked at with suspicion. Some people take pride in their legit find counts and don't appreciate that.

Utterly perfect analogy (in my mind): Major League Baseball stats accumulated BEFORE the Steroid Era vs. SINCE/AFTER.

 

So are we playing baseball here, and/or getting paid somehow? Of course not. But, to some/many people, the stats, and their legitimacy, DO matter.

 

Another analogy. If you have one crooked congressman it doesn't mean anything, but when you have a hundred, people tend to think all are crooked.

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or example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity? Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of? Besides intrinsic rewards and milestones what does a cacher have to gain by playing this game? When someone, somewhere, logs a -legit- find or logs a -creative- find what effect does it really have on you as individual participating in this activity

 

As I pointed out earlier, what makes these people think its OK to use this website's servers to store logs for caches that aren't listed here? Borderline thievery if you ask me.

 

Also, as one who was ignorant of these things until recently, I could have easily started seeing these "found it" logs for an archived cache and been tricked into wasting my time and gas going after a cache that was not there. That's how it could effect me.

 

Finally, as Fizzymagic pointed out, rampant cheating causes everyone's numbers to be looked at with suspicion. Some people take pride in their legit find counts and don't appreciate that.

 

I suppose it is the suspicion of -everyone's numbers- that I don't understand. These types of thoughts have never even creeped into my consciousness. When you or anyone else who can find the energy to put someone's find count up for evaluation, you are playing a different game than I am. I respectfully question the gain in acting in this manner.

 

I am not saying you are wrong, but I do think you are being extremely unrealistic and narrow in your perspective of just how people should Geocache. It seems that you are setting yourself up for the ultimate disappointment when you discover that these things are out of your control. The very nature of Geocaching ensures this. Review the stats for the last week and consider the numbers if you are struggling with what I am saying.

 

As for the borderline thievery... think real hard about this. Don't you think the value you are placing on your own interpretation of how Geocaching should be is a little over-inflated? Is this theft of bandwidth -really- something that is a –true- problem or is the root of your angst really that people are failing to understand things as you do?

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Finally, as Fizzymagic pointed out, rampant cheating causes everyone's numbers to be looked at with suspicion. Some people take pride in their legit find counts and don't appreciate that.

Utterly perfect analogy (in my mind): Major League Baseball stats accumulated BEFORE the Steroid Era vs. SINCE/AFTER.

 

So are we playing baseball here, and/or getting paid somehow? Of course not. But, to some/many people, the stats, and their legitimacy, DO matter.

Another analogy. If you have one crooked congressman it doesn't mean anything, but when you have a hundred, people tend to think all are crooked.

This discussion reminded me of the handful of threads we all saw a while back (and which still crop up from time to time) questioning how CCCA could possibly have run up as many Finds as she has over the years. Well, by now we all know that she's just an extermely (obsessively? :rolleyes: ) dedicated cacher who has the means and time to be able to cache pretty much full-time, all the time, and so her stats are generally considered throughout the Geocaching community to be legit (unless you ask a few select folks from her region, I know that).

 

However, I also recall thinking back to those threads that further analysis of her stats at the time (this was a few years back) showed that ON OCCASION, she would log as "Found" some caches where she got within 0.1 mile of the cache but the road was closed, or blocked by water, or whatever. Yeah, she documented in her log entries that's what happened, but she still took the smileys. Guess what some people labeled her at the time??

 

Now, I'm pretty confident that she doesn't practice this tactic anymore, and also that it was only a few isolated occasions, so let's not turn this into a "bash CCCA/defend CCCA" thread. I'm using this to make and amplify a point made in this thread: Some/many folks in this game DO care about the integrity of stats among high-stat-number cachers. The "world #1 in stats" was a case in point on this on these very Forums a while back.

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I guess one key point is how you categorize geocaching...is it a game/sport, or an activity. If you just view it as an activity, then your logs are really only there to tell you where you have been.

 

If, on the other hand, you label it a game/sport, then the numbers will mean a lot to some of us. As I stated before, I like to see where I stand in regards to other cachers out there.

 

 

What folks are doing here is not the best example we can offer the younger cachers in the family.

And in todays society the younger generation needs all the leadership they can get in morals, values & honor.

 

-snip

 

JMHO...JW

 

 

Back to my game analogy above...in youth sports, we always tell kids, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose, it's how you play the game."

 

Oops, I guess that doesn't count much here...

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Now, I'm pretty confident that she doesn't practice this tactic anymore, and also that it was only a few isolated occasions, so let's not turn this into a "bash CCCA/defend CCCA" thread. I'm using this to make and amplify a point made in this thread: Some/many folks in this game DO care about the integrity of stats among high-stat-number cachers. The "world #1 in stats" was a case in point on this on these very Forums a while back.

 

Ya think?

 

:rolleyes: April 28 by YOUKNOWHO (14570 found)

Several days and states later on my logs. Found all the proper hiding spots that led to the final with CACHER#2 & CACHER#3. Even volunteered to be the one to get dirty knees and have my hair drag in the mud at the final. No dice. Called up 2 previous finders who confirmed it MIA or significantly moved as we were at the correct coords which I'm mailing to you. This was fun and i remember hunting another cache in this park years back.

[view this log on a separate page]

Edited by Criminal
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Well, by now we all know that she's just an extermely (obsessively? ) dedicated cacher who has the means and time to be able to cache pretty much full-time, all the time, and so her stats are generally considered throughout the Geocaching community to be legit.

 

Guess again.

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I finally finished this thread...

 

If this practice is considered a way of encouraging people to come to event caches or get into caching, I have a better suggestion. The Unimoggers recently hosted an event in my area. They used kids puzzless to write a message on the back of them, including coordinates. They spread the puzzle pieces around in plastic eggs and sent us all into this field to get them. We had to, as a group, put these 4 puzzles together. Then those who are first to find addicts raced off to claim FTF. The rest of us chatted. This was such a great idea. This encouraged us to meet our fellow cachers. Every one of those 4 caches, plus 3 other bonus caches that only a total of 9 people had coordinates for were newly approved legimate caches on gc.com. The caches were released to the rest of the caching community a few days later. After the event, Mike and I spent a pleasant afternoon hunting these new caches.

 

We loved this idea. We are planning an event this summer similar to this (with unimoggers permission to blatantly steal ...er... use their idea).

 

Pocket caches has a slimy feel to it. It is dishonest. It is cheating. I hope this practice doesnt start up in Arizona.

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Well, by now we all know that she's just an extermely (obsessively? ) dedicated cacher who has the means and time to be able to cache pretty much full-time, all the time, and so her stats are generally considered throughout the Geocaching community to be legit.

 

Guess again.

Sigh. I wanted to use the previous discussions about the legitimacy (or lack thereof, depending on who you ask) of her Find count as an example pertinent to this thread, but I also wanted to "soften the blow" so that this wouldn't become a "bash CCCA" thread. I'll think again next time.

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Now, I'm pretty confident that she doesn't practice this tactic anymore, and also that it was only a few isolated occasions, so let's not turn this into a "bash CCCA/defend CCCA" thread. I'm using this to make and amplify a point made in this thread: Some/many folks in this game DO care about the integrity of stats among high-stat-number cachers. The "world #1 in stats" was a case in point on this on these very Forums a while back.

 

Ya think?

 

:rolleyes: April 28 by YOUKNOWHO (14570 found)

Several days and states later on my logs. Found all the proper hiding spots that led to the final with CACHER#2 & CACHER#3. Even volunteered to be the one to get dirty knees and have my hair drag in the mud at the final. No dice. Called up 2 previous finders who confirmed it MIA or significantly moved as we were at the correct coords which I'm mailing to you. This was fun and i remember hunting another cache in this park years back.

[view this log on a separate page]

I stand corrected. I agree, I don't care how much effort you put in on the hunt, and even if you confirm it to be MIA, if you didn't find the cache, it shouldn't be counted as a "Find"...anymore than a Pocket Cache passed around at an Event should be (back on topic).

 

Stats, and their legitimacy, DO matter to some/many people.

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For example; Isn’t Geocaching an individual activity?
Um, no... if it were just an individual activity, why bother logging your finds online? The very thing that makes geocaching so great is the community and the social aspects.

 

Or perhaps logging could be considered an individual record of ones Geocaching activity to review and enjoy at a later date? Maybe the person doing the logging has family (not necessarily GeoCachers) what would want to come to the website and read about those adventures and others that have also gone there? Before you say people don't log their finds for this reason, let me stop you. I can cite a very reliable source, and that would be me.

 

All I am trying to point out is that you are projecting your own perspective of how the game should be played on others. I don't doubt that there's probably a whole lot of history that has lead to you having this perspective, but unless you can cite rock solid Geocaching Law all it will ever be is your own take on how things should be.

 

Are we competing with each other in a way that I am not aware of?
It's not competition. More like cooperation. Dishonesty hurts any social activity, not just competition.

 

To be dishonest, there needs to be a fair measure of the dishonestly and a clear example of what honest behavior is. If it is your own personal measure that was generated by your own personal experiences, then this logic is flawed unless you are the ruling party.

 

Maybe some of these horrible cheating people that have logged 1000's of pocket caches are continually rubbing their numbers in your face? If so, then I can understand where you are coming from. If not, and you are -seeking out- these people and finding them on your own, I'd encourage you rethink how you spend your time. Inner peace will be your reward.

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According to the front page of GC.com there was 199,952 logs entered on the site in the last 7 days. How many of those cachers do you think are concerning themselves with the relevance of your finds?

 

And Criminal looked through every one of those logs to find these. Criminal, why don't you go out and find more than 5 caches in 4 months?

Edited by Wacka
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According to the front page of GC.com there was 199,952 logs entered on the site in the last 7 days. How many of those cachers do you think are concerning themselves with the relevance of your finds?

 

And Criminal looked through every one of those logs to find these. Criminal, why don't you go out and find more than 5 caches in 4 months?

 

Ouch.

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According to the front page of GC.com there was 199,952 logs entered on the site in the last 7 days. How many of those cachers do you think are concerning themselves with the relevance of your finds?

 

And Criminal looked through every one of those logs to find these. Criminal, why don't you go out and find more than 5 caches in 4 months?

If I do will you admit that cheating is wrong?

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Well, by now we all know that she's just an extermely (obsessively? ) dedicated cacher who has the means and time to be able to cache pretty much full-time, all the time, and so her stats are generally considered throughout the Geocaching community to be legit.

 

Guess again.

Sigh. I wanted to use the previous discussions about the legitimacy (or lack thereof, depending on who you ask) of her Find count as an example pertinent to this thread, but I also wanted to "soften the blow" so that this wouldn't become a "bash CCCA" thread. I'll think again next time.

 

When you have a find count like CCCA's, you can pretty much expect close scrutiny of your record. As a forum moderator I would simply request that any discussion be limited to that record, rather than any personal attacks. So far, so good.

 

 

According to the front page of GC.com there was 199,952 logs entered on the site in the last 7 days. How many of those cachers do you think are concerning themselves with the relevance of your finds?

 

And Criminal looked through every one of those logs to find these. Criminal, why don't you go out and find more than 5 caches in 4 months?

Here is an example of an impermissible personal attack. Second thread that I've read this in today. Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion. Take issue with his opinion if you wish, but quit it with the personal attacks if you wish to continue participating in this discussion. Thanks.

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Cache alone is sounding more like a good approach all the time.

 

Let's wax philosophical for a moment:

 

Few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example. -- Mark Twain

 

There is more to life than increasing it speed--Mahatma Ghandi

 

Talk does not cook rice--Chinese Proverb

 

Hey villagers put down the torches and garden implements. :rolleyes:

Edited by Packanack
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When I first started playing this game/sport/activity, to locate a cache you went to GC.com

and used your zip code or city and state checked the list of caches you wanted to do, printed out the cache pages and loaded the cache #s into your gps,then went out and looked for the caches. If you found the cache you signed the log book logged it for that cache page.

So I guess now if I went to Navicache or some other caching site and found caches from there that are not on GC.com I could just go ahead and find an archived cache and log it there, I mean what the h-ll thats basically the same thing as doing a pc, Right???? :rolleyes::unsure::blink:<_<:unsure:

Have the rules, or guidelines changed that allow this??????????????????????

Edited by vagabond
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Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion.

You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion.

 

Again, that doesn't make it right, but it is a fact to a lot of people in our little subculture. Try attending an Event where the subject of "So how many caches have you found?" isn't a subject of the conversation. OR: Try posting an opinion on these forums that may be contrary to someone else's, and see if someone hasn't clicked on your nickname link to see how many caches you've found as the basis for stating that opinion.

 

So, if you've artifically inflated your stats, you are misleading folks as to your level of experience, if that is being used as a measurement of it. That's why I give little or no "credit" to folks who have run up big stats since mid-'04 - Micro Spew , whoopity doo. And the more recent developments: Coin Serial # swapping, Pocket Caches, multi-event finds, etc.

Edited by drat19
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I can't believe what I'm reading ! Not being too interested in numbers, although I HATE cheating of any kind, I was skimming the threads not knowing or caring what Pocket Caches are.

 

Now please tell me this ain't true "People actually carry a cache in their pocket for people to Find and Log" ?

Edited by gerboa
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Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion.

You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion.

 

Again, that doesn't make it right, but it is a fact to a lot of people in our little subculture. Try attending an Event where the subject of "So how many caches have you found?" isn't a subject of the conversation. OR: Try posting an opinion on these forums that may be contrary to someone else's, and see if someone hasn't clicked on your nickname link to see how many caches you've found as the basis for stating that opinion.

 

So, if you've artifically inflated your stats, you are misleading folks as to your level of experience, if that is being used as a measurement of it. That's why I give little or no "credit" to folks who have run up big stats since mid-'04 - Micro Spew , whoopity doo. And the more recent developments: Coin Serial # swapping, Pocket Caches, multi-event finds, etc.

The find count to legitimate opinions is only half correct. Ethics is a huge factor and that's what this thread is all about. IF you really checked Criminal's find count, you'll note he practices what he preaches. Like it or not, that makes his opinion and thus bringing up this subject legitimate.

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Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion.

You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion.

 

Again, that doesn't make it right, but it is a fact to a lot of people in our little subculture. Try attending an Event where the subject of "So how many caches have you found?" isn't a subject of the conversation. OR: Try posting an opinion on these forums that may be contrary to someone else's, and see if someone hasn't clicked on your nickname link to see how many caches you've found as the basis for stating that opinion.

 

So, if you've artifically inflated your stats, you are misleading folks as to your level of experience, if that is being used as a measurement of it. That's why I give little or no "credit" to folks who have run up big stats since mid-'04 - Micro Spew , whoopity doo. And the more recent developments: Coin Serial # swapping, Pocket Caches, multi-event finds, etc.

The find count to legitimate opinions is only half correct. Ethics is a huge factor and that's what this thread is all about. IF you really checked Criminal's find count, you'll note he practices what he preaches. Like it or not, that makes his opinion and thus bringing up this subject legitimate.

Oh, I absolutely agree! I've "known" Criminal through his posts here on the Forums for years. And one CERTAINLY doesn't have to have high Find count numbers for his/her opinion to be credible.

 

My point is that until you get to "know" someone (through forum posts, cache log entries, or what have you), the Find count number is the first thing you have to go on. So, IN THAT CONTEXT, it matters.

 

I'll reiterate: That doesn't make it right, but it does make it a fact around here.

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I remember a couple of years ago when a cacher submitted a list of the cachers with the most finds in a day. I was lucky enough to make #10 with 26 finds. It had taken more than 12 hours. In fact Renegade Knight and I started our caching day in the dark and found the last 2 or 3 caches by flashlight.

 

Now it appears you can log that many caches in 15 minutes and not have to move from your PC. Maybe more if you have high speed internet.

 

Things like this devalue all of us not just those who participate in these fraudulant finds.

 

:rolleyes:

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I remember a couple of years ago when a cacher submitted a list of the cachers with the most finds in a day. I was lucky enough to make #10 with 26 finds. It had taken more than 12 hours. In fact Renegade Knight and I started our caching day in the dark and found the last 2 or 3 caches by flashlight.

 

Now it appears you can log that many caches in 15 minutes and not have to move from your PC. Maybe more if you have high speed internet.

 

Things like this devalue all of us not just those who participate in these fraudulant finds.

 

:rolleyes:

Yeah, I too remember those days. Betcha you put at least a couple hundred miles on your caching vehicle that day, too.

 

Now, you can score 200+ in a day in many metro areas on Spewed Micros - but at least those are actual Finds with log signatures (albeit usually with one driver and another jumping out of the car to snag the caches). I consider those to be a devaluation of Find stats just in terms of the lack of effort/creativity of hiding them.

 

This thing with being able to log Finds at the seat of your PC - now that's just a devaluation that's wrong on a whole 'nother level.

 

I'm with ya...the "value" of a Find stat is definitely not what it once was...

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I can't believe what I'm reading ! Not being too interested in numbers, although I HATE cheating of any kind, I was skimming the threads not knowing or caring what Pocket Caches are.

 

Now please tell me this ain't true "People actually carry a cache in their pocket for people to Find and Log" ?

I don't think they carry anything, they just say hi and 'allow' others to claim finds on their archived caches.

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Never having been to a geocacher's gathering, I will be projecting here,

but I feel that that the Frauds may as well have "Fraud" tattooed on their foreheads.

In any gathering one can generally seperate the wheat from the chaff.

Sort of like the whale who only gets harpooned when it comes up to spout.

Seems they are conspicuous by their absence on these forums..well that's good.

Edited by dunderhead
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Having failed miserably in trying to promote geocaching here, "The Land of the Living Dead" (Pattya)..it seems I have the wrong approach, an activity requiring some thought and effort.

Now I can start again and all the barflies regaling each other with their "war stories", will be able to participate without missing a round.

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Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion.

You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion.

 

Again, that doesn't make it right, but it is a fact to a lot of people in our little subculture. Try attending an Event where the subject of "So how many caches have you found?" isn't a subject of the conversation. OR: Try posting an opinion on these forums that may be contrary to someone else's, and see if someone hasn't clicked on your nickname link to see how many caches you've found as the basis for stating that opinion.

 

So, if you've artifically inflated your stats, you are misleading folks as to your level of experience, if that is being used as a measurement of it. That's why I give little or no "credit" to folks who have run up big stats since mid-'04 - Micro Spew , whoopity doo. And the more recent developments: Coin Serial # swapping, Pocket Caches, multi-event finds, etc.

 

Thank-you Keystone for stating what alot of people have not articulated very well. It certainly does explain all the fuss about the number of finds very well. So if I understand this correctly, posters here need to go out and find a bunch of Geocaches before they can be deemed worth listening to in your subculture.

--Wow--

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Hello, my name is Kris. My find count is 726. I average .95 caches a day. All my finds are legit, check my stats if you wish. (Hoping to add some validity to my post and maybe some integrity)

 

Anywho, the one question when topics like this come up that never get directly answered is this. Why do you have to log a find on the pocket cache, or log events multiple times? I go to events, I find event caches, I log one attended. What is the matter with just doing that?

 

I hear people say that they really worked for the extra smilies. Is that fair that you were able to be there in that 8 hour period and score finds that a guy who had to work couldn't? I never hear a direct answer to the question of what makes you feel you have the justified right to do these actions. I hear spinning answers of it doesn't hurt anyone else and such, but never a justified answer of why you feel it is right. Is the problem that you can't justify your actions?

 

Not wanting to start up the debate of "you know who," or any other suspect cachers, but the fact that it was something they did in the past as a justification just doesn't cut it. They can go back and delete these finds as easy as anyone else.

 

I used to be a numbers hound. The only problem was the people I thought I was competing with, weren't just logging legit finds. I soon lost respect for numbers and more importantly them. I have met a lot of new cachers recently. They talk about certain cachers and the wow factor of their finds whether it is 500 or 10,000. Of the few of these new cachers I really became friends with, I have told them, "hey not wanting to bust your bubble, but check out this cache where they logged 20 finds on it, or this event they logged 15 attendeds."

 

It's funny to see how a geocacher can be idolized like Babe Ruth one minute and be considered Barry Bonds the next. The "Oh" :P that new cachers say when hearing the truth is kind of depressing.

Edited by 5¢
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I just don't get it. When I come home from finding caches, I have (usually) pleasant memories of the walk, the search, the new places I've been shown. If somebody says by their cache that they have a great trail to show me, I don't scan maps for a quicker way to get there. It's the experience I enjoy, and the smiley is a part of the record of my geocaching experience.

I'm not asking in a snarky way, I'm honestly curious. Without even approaching the ethics question, I just don't comprehend how that feeling can be replicated by logging multiple finds at events, by sitting home logging archived caches, or by logging PC's. Can someone please explain? Team GeoBlast?

Edited by bumblingbs
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Criminal's find count is irrelevant to his right to express an opinion.

You're absolutely right! However, like it or not, and whether it's right or wrong, to many people Find count DOES matter in terms of being an experienced enough for others to consider one's opinion to be INFORMED ENOUGH opinion.

 

Again, that doesn't make it right, but it is a fact to a lot of people in our little subculture. Try attending an Event where the subject of "So how many caches have you found?" isn't a subject of the conversation. OR: Try posting an opinion on these forums that may be contrary to someone else's, and see if someone hasn't clicked on your nickname link to see how many caches you've found as the basis for stating that opinion.

 

So, if you've artifically inflated your stats, you are misleading folks as to your level of experience, if that is being used as a measurement of it. That's why I give little or no "credit" to folks who have run up big stats since mid-'04 - Micro Spew , whoopity doo. And the more recent developments: Coin Serial # swapping, Pocket Caches, multi-event finds, etc.

 

Thank-you Keystone for stating what alot of people have not articulated very well. It certainly does explain all the fuss about the number of finds very well. So if I understand this correctly, posters here need to go out and find a bunch of Geocaches before they can be deemed worth listening to in your subculture.

--Wow--

 

No, you are spinning the point here. The best way I can articulate this is with this analogy. When the new guy at work comes up and tells you that he thinks the job ought to be done this way, and he has never worked in this profession before, does he have any crediblity? No, he is heard. If it sounds like a good idea or thought, it is considered, but not not made into a standard.

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mid-'04 - Micro Spew ,

 

I keep seeing this, what is it? and why does it affect me? I started caching in Nov, 04

 

I believe that this cacher is saying that anything found after said date is considered trash caches. Park and Grabs, etc. It shouldn't affect you other than in his eyes your finds are suspect, because I believe from what I have seen him post that anything found after that date with some exceptions were not of the same quality of caches he found before said date.

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I can't believe what I'm reading ! Not being too interested in numbers, although I HATE cheating of any kind, I was skimming the threads not knowing or caring what Pocket Caches are.

 

Now please tell me this ain't true "People actually carry a cache in their pocket for people to Find and Log" ?

I don't think they carry anything, they just say hi and 'allow' others to claim finds on their archived caches.

 

in my experience, there is actually a logbook froma cache that they had that is usually archived. you ask for the log and sign it. go home and log it.

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Add another issue to the Geocaching hot-button topic list. While we're at it, can I tell you about Jesus? Oh, and vote republican, cause eating meat is bad, micros are good, and LNT. Oh, and no Gay cruising, thats immoral.

 

Whew! I feel better now, back on topic. First, as a former Gulf Coast cacher, let me say that DRat is still the most respected cacher down there, regardless of find count. And since joining, I've heard/have little but great respect for BSnat and Criminal. That said, lighten up!

 

I and just about everyone here agrees--PCs are cheesy, and cheating. The difference, at least for me, is I don't really care! Log away--it doesn't lessen my experience in the least. Nor does it lessen my respect for the venerable, old school cachers who this bothers so much.

 

So to sum up my opinions, PCs are bad, but not as bad as caches at gay cruising sites. (note tongue intentionally left in cheek...or is that a poor choice of words?) :P

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Logging finds on archived caches to inflate your stats -- Bad

Letting others' Smiley count affect how you feel about yourself -- Sad

Checking peoples' Smiley count before considering their opinions -- Pitiful

Scoring a find on Geometric Mystery last weekend -- Priceless

 

Y'all carry on, I'm gonna go plan next weekend.

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I don't see what the big deal is. People play this game however they want. if numbers are all that matter to you, log somone's pocket cache. If you're all about the ethics and the "real" numbers, log as such. I've gone caching with many folks, and I've seen how different people play the game. I've cached with CCCA, and while I admire her as a person and friend, she plays the game differently than I prefer to. As such, I've found others who play more like I do to cache with on a regular basis. Just this past weekend Lux (caching buddy #1) and I helped a mutual friend of ours score his 1000th find - on a cache that Lux and I hid. Yes, we helped him out, but no, we didn't give it away. We actually spent 4+ hours hiking trails, climbing objects and delving deep into... other places in order to allow our friend to EARN his 1000th cache. And if you ever thought a 69 year old man wouldn't tie on a harness and climbing rope to score a find, think again.

 

Others have scored this same cache the "easy" way -- by tagging along with prior finders and skipping the puzzle and the first stage just to sign the log.

 

Anyway, the cache is question is a 5/5. read the logs, and you'll see who worked for the cache, and who just took advantage of the situation to get a smilie. Would I prefer the cache be done as designed? Sure. But if you skip the stages for the little yellow smile, at the end of the day you're only cheating yourself.

 

The day I log a cache that's in someone's pocket, or by it's "retirement card", or because I've ridden in the car with the container is the day I'll need to find a new passtime. Just not my style. But if that's how YOU want to play the game, have fun. At the end of the day, numbers are pointless. But the memories you take with you? Priceless.

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mid-'04 - Micro Spew ,

 

I keep seeing this, what is it? and why does it affect me? I started caching in Nov, 04

 

I believe that this cacher is saying that anything found after said date is considered trash caches. Park and Grabs, etc. It shouldn't affect you other than in his eyes your finds are suspect, because I believe from what I have seen him post that anything found after that date with some exceptions were not of the same quality of caches he found before said date.

 

Not to be rude, but maybe we should all just pack up and go home if the find counts don't matter anymore.(post 2004) I recently took steps to insure my finds were legit, not for anyone else but for my own consience and enjoyment.

 

I posted a thread about micros and if they were getting away from our roots. some of the respondents thought I was trashing micros. That was not my intention. I wanted to start a discussion. I did. I have a place in my heart for micros. I think nanos are a little rediculous ( I'll get it for that one) but I really think that if there weren't any "park and grabs" at all I would have lost interest in this sport when I first started. I like the harder ones now but I still like micros.

 

I love parks. I've started a series here in Lake County FL in parks and I hope others run with it. the problem with urban parks is that there isn't much hiking and much hiding room. Is that cache the match container with camo tape or is it the park? judging from some of the people in here it is the park. JMHBAO

 

edited to add (post 2004) for clarification

Edited by erikwillke
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mid-'04 - Micro Spew ,

 

I keep seeing this, what is it? and why does it affect me? I started caching in Nov, 04

 

I believe that this cacher is saying that anything found after said date is considered trash caches. Park and Grabs, etc. It shouldn't affect you other than in his eyes your finds are suspect, because I believe from what I have seen him post that anything found after that date with some exceptions were not of the same quality of caches he found before said date.

Your assessment of my position, which as you know I have posted many times and on many threads, is MOSTLY correct.

 

One clarification, though: I'm not really saying that the quality of caches is not the same, it's the OVERALL quality of caches. One can still find quality caches, it just takes a lot more effort to do so, because of the white noise created in so many areas by Micro Spew . Mid '04 is MY OPINION of the unofficial time period when our game "took the wrong turn" in more than just a few selected metro areas. And new cachers who have joined the game since roughly that time, who are located in the rapidly-growing-number-of-Spew-Affected-areas, think that "this is the game". The old concept of "Want more caches to find? Drive farther!", is unknown to these cachers.

 

By extension, I'm also saying that if you ran up fairly high cache Find numbers, the quality of your STATS is not the same if you found the majority of your caches since that time.

 

MY OPINION, your mileage may vary.

Edited by drat19
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I guess when it is all said and done, the people I have met who "cheat, are non puritan, traditionalist, whatever you want to call it" seem to be the biggest braggarts I have met or have heard about in this thing we call geocaching. I guess that is the point I don't get of the whole cheating aspect. It is bad enough they do it, but then they think you ought to respect their cheating find count to boot. :P

Edited by 5¢
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We could make a 'Real men of genius' song for this.

 

Mr cheating pocket cache collecter

This Bud's for the pocket cache collector, who fearlessly find caches in other cacher's pockets

caches in pockets

Braving the scorn of the old school cachers in the forums

you weaselly cheater

So this Bud's for you, Mr. pocket cache collector, fearless padding your stats to erode the old-timer's credibility.

Mr cheating pocket cache coleh-he-hector!

 

OK, mid shift has officially given me too much forum time and not enough caching time.

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