Jump to content

Asking Permission


Recommended Posts

1. How many of you actually take the time to ask permission before placing a cache into a city, county, state or federal park or any other public lands such as DNR, BLM and etc.?

 

2. Do you just take it foregranted that because it's public land and you pay taxes that you can do anything you want on public land? Apparently, GC thinks that asking permission is a very important issue!

 

3. Did you know that many of the parks governed by cities, counties and states have what are called "Use Permits", which in many cases involves fees appropriate to the activity planned?

 

If you know all of this and still say that "I don't care" or see no need to ask permission, then how come the GC Guidelines specify the importance of have permission of the land owner and/or manager before placing a cache? See the following:

 

GC Guideline: "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

I personally took this guideline to heart when I went to my local city parks & recreation department and acquired a permit for the paulty some of $10.00 a year. This allows me to place caches into any of my city's parks, and that's a lot of caches. If my city really wanted to, if given justification, they could remove all of those caches for which there are no permits on file and even charge their owners with a fine.

 

So now you are probably wondering why am I making a "big deal" about this subject? Well, it's because it's important to respect the public lands, for they are there for all of us, not just geocachers. Also, read the following example that I hope never gets repeated.

 

A True Story: In my area several years, there was a cache placed within a local state park and it was there for several months. The Park Ranger became aware of the geocaching hobby, after hearing about it from another Park Ranger and his superiors. He checked out the GC website and discovered a cache was in his park and he took a very strong action and confiscated it. It even got into the local forums and the sparks were flying!

 

A few years passed and I come along and apparently ask the very same Park Ranger/Manager for permission to place a cache. After setting up an appointment and a latter discussion with him and his assistants, for about 30 minutes or more, I was able to convince him to allow a new cache in the park, and with permission from his superiors, he waived the Use Permit fee of $25. Every year I have to renew my written "contract" with him and there are still no fees to be paid.

 

The bottom line is, I busted my butt to do the right thing and each and every cacher out there should be doing that as well. I just hate those that have the attitude that "I pay takes an I can do anything I want on public land". NOT SO!!!

 

Ask and yee shall receive, you hope!

Don't ask and you might get burned!

 

/\/oo\/\

Edited by Fledermaus
Link to comment
Ask and yee shall receive, you hope!

Don't ask and you might get burned!

 

Here is another story. One person went to city hall to obtain permission to get a cache. He was told that it had to go before the town council. The town council decided that the town attorneys had to review it. After several months they finally okayed the cache, but with several stipulations. First, the placer had to take out a 1 million dollar liability policy. Second, the cache could only be there for one day.

 

While the one owner was jumping through all those hoops, several other caches were placed in the park and remain there today without any issues.

 

The fact of the matter is that many land managers know about geocaching, don't see it as a problem and let it go on with a wink and a nod. As good old Sgt. Schultz used to say, "I know nooooothing, noooothing", thereby giving geocaching their tacit approval. But the minute a well meaning geocacher comes along and demands their official sanction, that changes things and the result isn't always positive for geocachers.

 

There are many success stories that come from approaching the authorities for permission and for every one, there is a negative outcome.

 

From a personal standpoint, I have a fundimental problem with the concept of begging my government for permission to do something that is legal and basically harmless.

Edited by briansnat
Link to comment

I went through the National Park Service and got a cache approved a couple of years ago in a National Park. Like the cacher that Briansnat uses as an example, it took quite a while to get my cache approved. When I finally got it approved I submitted the cache to Groundspeak and had it approved. For some reason they didn't realize that another cache had been placed within 510' of my cache before I got mine approved so eventually archived my cache since it was not there first.

 

At that time there wasn't such a big deal made about approval. I would assume that with the way things are today my cache would be approved and the other one would be disqualified since they did not have approval.

Link to comment

I always ask when on private property and work with the DNR on others.

 

Yet I have no problem with permission being implied on public lands as long as the lands are there for actual public use.

 

What I mean by that is there are several public lands around where I live but they are nature preserves and not intended for the PUBLIC to be on. While other public land is clearly marked for public uses and Hunting and Fishing is allowed. If they going to let people roam around on the land with guns I look at it that they are also allowing people with a GPS unit.

Link to comment

1. How many of you actually take the time to ask permission before placing a cache into a city, county, state or federal park or any other public lands such as DNR, BLM and etc.?

 

2. Do you just take it foregranted that because it's public land and you pay taxes that you can do anything you want on public land? Apparently, GC thinks that asking permission is a very important issue!

 

3. Did you know that many of the parks governed by cities, counties and states have what are called "Use Permits", which in many cases involves fees appropriate to the activity planned?

 

snip

 

/\/oo\/\

1. How many take the time? I don't know. I don't ask. Ever.

 

2. No, I don't take it for granted that because it’s public land and that I pay taxes I can do whatever I like. I take it for granted that if there is no prohibition against doing it (geocaching) that I have permission. If the park authorities choose to publish an inclusive list of all authorized activities, I will abide by their rules if I choose to use their facilities.

 

3. I don’t know, and frankly I don’t care. The parks that I hide in do not, as far as I know, have permits or fees. If they did, I wouldn’t play there.

Edited by Criminal
Link to comment

Whether I ask permission depends on where I place the cache. I placed a few in my town's parks. Their park policy (on the web) is that the parks are for general recreational use, and no mention was made of needing any permits unless you're going to have a large group of people. I didn't ask permission, since geocaching is a recreational use.

 

I'm planning a series of several caches I'll place on DNR hunting land. In that instance I did ask permission, since they state that most of the funding for the land came from hunting licenses and that its intent wasn't for general recreation.

 

I did get approval for 2 of the 3 parcels I asked about, and am still waiting to hear on the third. I can understand why people don't ask, though. It took me over four months to get approval for the first parcel, and that doesn't count the time it took to track down the right person to ask. Each parcel has a different land manager, so its been a major PITA. It would have been much easier to just hide the caches, since the parcels already have caches hidden on them, and the DNR hasn't objected yet.

Link to comment

....So now you are probably wondering why am I making a "big deal" about this subject? Well, it's because it's important to respect the public lands, for they are there for all of us...

 

Exactly. All of us means geocachers.

 

1. I don't, nor would I have a problem speaking with any official from the agency or government in question.

 

2. I take it for granted that I can use said lands for recreational purposes since they are already allowing recreational activies and other casual use. The BLM was even so kind as to define geocaching for what it is. A casual land use. Where an agency has a geocaching policy I comply.

 

3. Yes. If I wanted to hold a big event and tie up the park for my exclusive enjoyment I would have to have a permit and pay a fee. In exchange the park system would reserve the park or gazebo for me. Since geocaching doesn't do that normally this does not apply. However where a land manager imposes a fee specific to geocaching, then I have no use for placing a cache in the park. It's enough to pay the regular access fee, parking permit, and tax.

 

Your story has a problem in that it seems like you are paying use fee's where you don't need too and also if the ranger can 'waive' the fee it's because it didn't need to be charged. Yes it's nice that you talked to them, but the original cacher you mentioned could have done the same thing.

Link to comment

And what agency did you get permission from when placing this cache, the agency of "I'll do whatever the hell I want"?

 

Yep, I'd like to see a response to LandRover's very pertinent question. In archiving your under-bridge cache you have some harsh words for the Homeland Security sensitivity about bridges (Gestapo?). Now you seem to be taking the tack that government permission should be sought for all cache placements. I guess you're a recent convert to this way of thinking.

 

We place primarily wilderness caches in areas that welcome them, avoiding the bureaucratic hassles (and Muggles!) of municipal parks.

Link to comment

The statement about needing permission is needed by this website to protect their own liability. It seems that if you put the coordinates of a place that you wish to place a cache and see that others are already in the general area it would be redundant to pursue permission. Of course if it's personal property rather then public property permission should always be received.

Link to comment

1. How many of you actually take the time to ask permission before placing a cache into a city, county, state or federal park or any other public lands such as DNR, BLM and etc.?

 

2. Do you just take it foregranted that because it's public land and you pay taxes that you can do anything you want on public land? Apparently, GC thinks that asking permission is a very important issue!

 

3. Did you know that many of the parks governed by cities, counties and states have what are called "Use Permits", which in many cases involves fees appropriate to the activity planned?

 

If you know all of this and still say that "I don't care" or see no need to ask permission, then how come the GC Guidelines specify the importance of have permission of the land owner and/or manager before placing a cache? See the following:

 

GC Guideline: "By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location."

 

I personally took this guideline to heart when I went to my local city parks & recreation department and acquired a permit for the paulty some of $10.00 a year. This allows me to place caches into any of my city's parks, and that's a lot of caches. If my city really wanted to, if given justification, they could remove all of those caches for which there are no permits on file and even charge their owners with a fine.

 

So now you are probably wondering why am I making a "big deal" about this subject? Well, it's because it's important to respect the public lands, for they are there for all of us, not just geocachers. Also, read the following example that I hope never gets repeated.

 

A True Story: In my area several years, there was a cache placed within a local state park and it was there for several months. The Park Ranger became aware of the geocaching hobby, after hearing about it from another Park Ranger and his superiors. He checked out the GC website and discovered a cache was in his park and he took a very strong action and confiscated it. It even got into the local forums and the sparks were flying!

 

A few years passed and I come along and apparently ask the very same Park Ranger/Manager for permission to place a cache. After setting up an appointment and a latter discussion with him and his assistants, for about 30 minutes or more, I was able to convince him to allow a new cache in the park, and with permission from his superiors, he waived the Use Permit fee of $25. Every year I have to renew my written "contract" with him and there are still no fees to be paid.

 

The bottom line is, I busted my butt to do the right thing and each and every cacher out there should be doing that as well. I just hate those that have the attitude that "I pay takes an I can do anything I want on public land". NOT SO!!!

 

Ask and yee shall receive, you hope!

Don't ask and you might get burned!

 

/\/oo\/\

 

I believe you are the role model cacher, and wish more people took things serious as you do.

Link to comment

I don't think I'd pay to place caches. Maybe, it depends on time limits and how many. I think I'd look to commercial property first and ask the owners. I always ask, that way I don't feel like I'm doing anything wrong. One of my requests just came out of commitee(two months). Still waiting on the other one. Haven't had anyone turn me down and as a result have lots of places planned for caches. Also there are a WHOLE lot of people who now know about geocaching who didn't before.

Edited by Luckless
Link to comment

Do hikers ask permission to hike?

Do Fshermen ask permission to fish?

Do Mtn. Bikers ask permission to ride the trails?

Do Bird Watchers ask the Big Eagle for permission to watch a bunch of feathers?

Do I ask for permission to have a beer.

 

I will use the land as per posted regulations. And if it has regulations then I will go elsewhere before I ask for permission.

Link to comment

Why not just admit geocaching reeks to high heaven of illicit behavior, which is one of the reasons we enjoy it so? Facing the truth is far better than pursuing the road of hypocritical or oblivious ignorance.

By agreeing to waive the fees you are participating in just the sort of government corruption that every law-abiding citizen deplores! If you want to follow the rules, why did you agree to break them? Your hypocrisy feels like a brisk slap in the face.

 

If you believe these things, aren't you hypocritical for finding over 300 caches that having dubious feligree as to being placed with permission. Did you ask the hiders if they received permission before you went to find them?

Link to comment

Here's what someone had to say about this issue in Nov 2003:

 

Permission has reared its ugly head again and another new cacher has decided he/she has a better way of playing the game. I’ve started a new thread because I will cover this so thoroughly that it will appear, at times, to be off topic.

 

This is what I learned in the Air Force: There are two types of people in the AF (and the world in general). The first believes they can do nothing without explicit permission. They will not act unless they know factually that the act is an approved act. If they have the slightest doubt, they will find someone to ask for permission. The second type of person believes they can do anything unless they are aware of a prohibition specifically against the act. They see the lack of prohibition as implicit permission.

 

The difference between the two is all about freedom. Before I discuss freedom, let me first explain the severe danger of asking permission. People, in general terms, like to avoid conflict, they like their jobs and their lives to be as simple and trouble free as possible. They want routine. They don’t want some anal retentive worry wart to come along and start making demands for permission or authorization to do something they never heard of. So there you go, feeling warm and smug, asking Joe Flunky park employee if you can hide a geocache in a park over which he has some degree of authority. He’s never heard of it, can’t understand even the most eloquent explanation you offer, and will become annoyed. Why? Because you’ve just destroyed his whole sense of routine. Now he has to go find information about an activity he doesn’t comprehend. He knows that if he asks his boss, he’ll sound like a stuttering idiot trying to explain it. What will he do? He will deny your request, because that’s the easiest way to get back to his routine while exposing him to no risk. Before you asked, you had implicit permission at least, and deniability nonetheless. Now you have been specifically prohibited and have effectively given away some of your freedom. Unfortunately, there are any number of whiners and pantywastes who find it impossible to enjoy such a “rouge” game and try to change the game to suite them, instead of changing their own philosophy to agree with the game.

 

And that’s what it’s all about, freedom. I gave 20 years for it, some gave nothing, and others gave everything they could. You didn’t get your freedom from the constitution; rather, that document merely affirms your freedom. If you can’t understand the difference, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time or space here to educate you. Why do you obey laws? Really, ask yourself why you obey the laws? If your answer is, “to avoid punishment” you are not free. You are a slave to the law and slaves are not free. Ask me why I obey laws and I’ll tell you it’s because I believe in the limits imposed to ensure a civilized society. Now here’s the catch, I reserve the right to disobey any law at my whim. Don’t be shocked, because therein lies my freedom; I could break the law, but I have made the free will decision not to. I know how to pick locks, I am comfortable moving about in the dark without external lighting and can do so almost without making a sound, I have knowledge of how certain equipment works and how to circumvent its intent. I choose not to.

 

Sadly, freedom is an addictive drug. I will, without fail, fight tooth and nail against anyone who tries to take even the most miniscule portion of my freedom from me. It’s a very insidious disease. It never strike catastrophically, rather, it sneaks in a little at a time. I don’t and won’t ask permission unless I am aware of a prohibition. I refuse to surrender any of my freedom. Guess what? This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required. So to the person (now and later) who thinks geocaching.com should require a lengthy procedure to ensure permission is granted before approving a cache, F you. Shut up and enjoy the game. If you cannot enjoy the game, play something else.

Link to comment

Why not just admit geocaching reeks to high heaven of illicit behavior, which is one of the reasons we enjoy it so? Facing the truth is far better than pursuing the road of hypocritical or oblivious ignorance.

 

You must cache far differently than I do. I load waypoitns into my GPS and go look for hidden containers. I might stop and fish, or I might try out a dive for some good food. I could get distracted if I drive by a Sportsmans Warehouse or stop and say hello to a friend. If I'm remote I might shoot at a can. If I'm urban I might pick up some trash. If I'm feeling really rebeliouse I might drive through a mud puddle really fast and in a toal flaunting of authority I may not quit looking for a cache right at dusk in a park that closes at night.

 

Boy oh boy am I ever living on the edge. What the heck do you do when you go caching.

Link to comment

I went to a Geocaching event in Suburban Denver a couple of months ago. One of the organizers of the event was encouraging everyone present to hide at least one cache a month this year! Certainly a noble cause! Some made mention of private vs public land and she stated we should hide caches wherever we could because there really was no real private land left in the world. She made a reference to government land being in her opinion private since it was owned by the government.

 

I just thought this is so sad that she would make a silly statement like that infront of a group of 30 cachers. Becareful about listening to other people who might say its ok to place a cache in a given place, it may not be accurate, do your own homework.

 

Needless to say despite what she said, it always best to get permission. I have placed one and the greenbelts (multi) it is placed in have no policy one way or another concerning geocaching per the parks district. so it is not necessary to get permission.

 

Dan

Link to comment

In my area we're fortunate that the local parks director looks at the economic impact that cachers can have on the economy. We have blanket permission in the county and simply let him know the park or area the cache has been placed.

 

On the other hand, there's various caches that are placed in the landscaping of various businesses. I was out with some relatively new cachers looking for this series over the weekend when we were confronted by the business' manager. He was not happy with all the destruction of the landscaping and people going to the side of the property at all hours. We removed the cache as he requested and placed it in a nearby cache for the cache owner to pick up. I feel it's caches such as those that gives caching a black eye.

Link to comment
Do hikers ask permission to hike?

Do Fshermen ask permission to fish?

Do Mtn. Bikers ask permission to ride the trails?

Do Bird Watchers ask the Big Eagle for permission to watch a bunch of feathers?

Do I ask for permission to have a beer.

 

I will use the land as per posted regulations. And if it has regulations then I will go elsewhere before I ask for permission.

 

I don't know about you, but I have to ask permision to have a beer.....and I'm almost 26, but that's off topic and another story all together.....

Link to comment

Here's what someone had to say about this issue in Nov 2003:

 

Permission has reared its ugly head again and another new cacher has decided he/she has a better way of playing the game. I’ve started a new thread because I will cover this so thoroughly that it will appear, at times, to be off topic.

 

This is what I learned in the Air Force: There are two types of people in the AF (and the world in general). The first believes they can do nothing without explicit permission. They will not act unless they know factually that the act is an approved act. If they have the slightest doubt, they will find someone to ask for permission. The second type of person believes they can do anything unless they are aware of a prohibition specifically against the act. They see the lack of prohibition as implicit permission.

 

The difference between the two is all about freedom. Before I discuss freedom, let me first explain the severe danger of asking permission. People, in general terms, like to avoid conflict, they like their jobs and their lives to be as simple and trouble free as possible. They want routine. They don’t want some anal retentive worry wart to come along and start making demands for permission or authorization to do something they never heard of. So there you go, feeling warm and smug, asking Joe Flunky park employee if you can hide a geocache in a park over which he has some degree of authority. He’s never heard of it, can’t understand even the most eloquent explanation you offer, and will become annoyed. Why? Because you’ve just destroyed his whole sense of routine. Now he has to go find information about an activity he doesn’t comprehend. He knows that if he asks his boss, he’ll sound like a stuttering idiot trying to explain it. What will he do? He will deny your request, because that’s the easiest way to get back to his routine while exposing him to no risk. Before you asked, you had implicit permission at least, and deniability nonetheless. Now you have been specifically prohibited and have effectively given away some of your freedom. Unfortunately, there are any number of whiners and pantywastes who find it impossible to enjoy such a “rouge” game and try to change the game to suite them, instead of changing their own philosophy to agree with the game.

 

And that’s what it’s all about, freedom. I gave 20 years for it, some gave nothing, and others gave everything they could. You didn’t get your freedom from the constitution; rather, that document merely affirms your freedom. If you can’t understand the difference, I’m sorry, I don’t have the time or space here to educate you. Why do you obey laws? Really, ask yourself why you obey the laws? If your answer is, “to avoid punishment” you are not free. You are a slave to the law and slaves are not free. Ask me why I obey laws and I’ll tell you it’s because I believe in the limits imposed to ensure a civilized society. Now here’s the catch, I reserve the right to disobey any law at my whim. Don’t be shocked, because therein lies my freedom; I could break the law, but I have made the free will decision not to. I know how to pick locks, I am comfortable moving about in the dark without external lighting and can do so almost without making a sound, I have knowledge of how certain equipment works and how to circumvent its intent. I choose not to.

 

Sadly, freedom is an addictive drug. I will, without fail, fight tooth and nail against anyone who tries to take even the most miniscule portion of my freedom from me. It’s a very insidious disease. It never strike catastrophically, rather, it sneaks in a little at a time. I don’t and won’t ask permission unless I am aware of a prohibition. I refuse to surrender any of my freedom. Guess what? This philosophy is in full compliance with the guidelines of this site! You are fully expected to obtain permission wherever permission is required. So to the person (now and later) who thinks geocaching.com should require a lengthy procedure to ensure permission is granted before approving a cache, F you. Shut up and enjoy the game. If you cannot enjoy the game, play something else.

BRAVO! and quite correct.

Link to comment

As is often the case with a forum thread started the day after someone's submission is archived, there is more than one side to this story.

 

I personally do not think that the geocaching.com guidelines that ask that you have "adequate permission" mean that you should try and ensure that that permission means that only you, your friends, and those you 'invite' may place geocaches in a particular area. Geocaching (including placing caches) is an activity that in my opinion should be open to all, not a select group of 'chosen'.

 

Nor do I think that receiving "adequate permission" means that you have any grounds upon which to justify 'confiscating' geocaches on another agency's land simply because you believe that they might not have been placed with explicit permission. You, as a geocacher, are not in the position to make that determination, and have not been empowered to take another's property.

Link to comment

 

BRAVO! and quite correct.

 

I concur.

 

In my humble opinion, America is about the least free country around. Everyone is afraid, armed, paranoid, and nervous about everything. The patriot act, homeland security, big brother everywhere. People arguing about wether or not you need permission to geocache on public, publicly funded land is just one example.

Link to comment

Why not just admit geocaching reeks to high heaven of illicit behavior, which is one of the reasons we enjoy it so? Facing the truth is far better than pursuing the road of hypocritical or oblivious ignorance.

 

I've been geocaching for several years and the thought that I was doing something illicit never remotely entered my mind. Your statement makes me wonder where you are hiding your caches.

Link to comment

A geocacher discovers a great multi-use park. What an incredible park. In addition to the baseball fields, soccer fields, and exercise path, it also has a great deal of land dedicated to hiking trails. Heck, it even allows horses and mountain bikes.

 

The cacher checks out the main sign and finds that the park is open 24 hours a day and only forbids ATVs and snowmobiles. The cacher makes an appointment to talk to the land manager to ask permission. Unknown to him, the land manager is fresh on the job and afraid to make a bad decision. Therefore, he tends to only make safe decisions. He says 'No'. Out of curiousity, the manager looks into the GC.com site and discovers two caches already in the park. He promptly emails TPTB, has them archived, and establishes 'his' park as a 'No Cache Zone'.

Edited by sbell111
Link to comment

We've had no problems with permission here (Oklahoma). Our group (Kiamichi Geocaching Association) has a standing blessing from our district National Forest rangers to place any cache we want, as long as it's clearly marked.

Last year, I placed a cache in an Arkansas state park only to find out a bit later that a permit was required. I called the ranger and she was PUMPED about having a geocache there because it would bring visitors to the park. She was right - there have been dozens. So she approved the permit very easily and quickly and I've had no problems.

Link to comment

Ask Permission, yes you should, unless there is an existing policy for geocaching that said do other wise

 

I have helped set up right at 20 different geocaching policies with local, state and federal agencies and have never been turned down and caches have never been archive because of it when they were approached about placement, with other caches already there.

 

Sorry just don’t see the big deal about asking, ask and educate, work out their worries

 

If you want to help our sport get more main stream this is the only way it is going to happen

 

Joe

Link to comment

And what agency did you get permission from when placing this cache, the agency of "I'll do whatever the hell I want"?

 

As someone who has found the cache in question, I'll answer for Fledermaus, though perhaps I shouldn't:

The cache was at the confluence of tidal land (usually considered public property) and a cit easement that is located adjacent to a park. I'm guessing Fledermaus thought his permit covered placement (and it may have).

 

In fact, I think what the cop said was hogwash. If they didn't want people using a public easement they should post it. People are under that birdge all the time fishing, etc. Even without using the city's easement it is legal and easy to get to the cache location. I think the big group of people and freaked him out. The idea of the Warren Avenue Bridge in Bremerton as a terrorist target is laughable. But that's neither here nor there....

Link to comment

 

BRAVO! and quite correct.

 

I concur.

 

In my humble opinion, America is about the least free country around. Everyone is afraid, armed, paranoid, and nervous about everything. The patriot act, homeland security, big brother everywhere. People arguing about wether or not you need permission to geocache on public, publicly funded land is just one example.

 

Substitute "most neurotic" for "least free" and you might have a point. But if you seriously mean "least free" it would be interesting to see your list of countries ranked from least (US) to most free (?). Just because people have trivial concerns that constrain their behavior doesn't make them unfree in the usual sense. Unfree people have a reasonable fear that the secret police may kick in their door or an Imam may issue a Fatwah calling for their death.

 

What else did Fahrenheit 911 teach you about Geocaching?

Link to comment

And what agency did you get permission from when placing this cache, the agency of "I'll do whatever the hell I want"?

 

As someone who has found the cache in question, I'll answer for Fledermaus, though perhaps I shouldn't:

The cache was at the confluence of tidal land (usually considered public property) and a cit easement that is located adjacent to a park. I'm guessing Fledermaus thought his permit covered placement (and it may have).

 

In fact, I think what the cop said was hogwash. If they didn't want people using a public easement they should post it. People are under that birdge all the time fishing, etc. Even without using the city's easement it is legal and easy to get to the cache location. I think the big group of people and freaked him out. The idea of the Warren Avenue Bridge in Bremerton as a terrorist target is laughable. But that's neither here nor there....

As one of those who was asked to leave by the local authorities, I have to say that it was not the friendliest interaction I have ever had with the police while out caching. As far as permission for placing the cache in question if permission had been given then he should have stated that to GS once they brought up their concerns instead of lamb blasting TPTB.

The example I gave is not the only time Fledermaus has gone off the deep end when asked to remove one of his caches. Just look at this one, yes it was a long time ago, but there is a pattern there.

Edited by LandRover
Link to comment

As far as permission for placing the cache in question if permission had been given then he should have stated that to GS once they brought up their concerns instead of lamb blasting TPTB.

 

Hmm... Good point. Well, I'll let Ray speak for himself, which is maybe what I should have done in the first place....

I do agree that Ray doesn't handle those situations the most diplomatically, to say the least, and I'm sure he'd agree with that statement.

Link to comment

Why not just admit geocaching reeks to high heaven of illicit behavior, which is one of the reasons we enjoy it so? Facing the truth is far better than pursuing the road of hypocritical or oblivious ignorance.

By agreeing to waive the fees you are participating in just the sort of government corruption that every law-abiding citizen deplores! If you want to follow the rules, why did you agree to break them? Your hypocrisy feels like a brisk slap in the face.

 

If you believe these things, aren't you hypocritical for finding over 300 caches that having dubious feligree as to being placed with permission. Did you ask the hiders if they received permission before you went to find them?

 

Huh? What "things" do you suppose I'm advocating in the above statements that contradicts my caching activity? I find it well established in this thread, as well as others, that the general opinion supports the equation, "No permission = Adequate permission", in all unopposed cases. That is to say, do whatever you want, so long as no one catches you or complains about it (then plead ignorance or incapacity).

Edited by salmoned
Link to comment

Why not just admit geocaching reeks to high heaven of illicit behavior, which is one of the reasons we enjoy it so? Facing the truth is far better than pursuing the road of hypocritical or oblivious ignorance.

 

I've been geocaching for several years and the thought that I was doing something illicit never remotely entered my mind. Your statement makes me wonder where you are hiding your caches.

 

Hey, I never said it WAS illicit behavior, though it often is, it simply reeks of it. In Hawaii, all state and local land has regulations concerning abandoned property. Said regulations define abandoned property in such a way that geocaches are included (without, of course, being specifically mentioned). Even IF permission is given by an authorizing official (which is unlikely, since it would require breaking the law), it would be unlawful, until such time that the law is rewritten.

 

As well, if you leave your car parked on the road over 48 hours without moving it, it may be towed. {I thought I'd add an irrelevant remark, since they seem so popular}

Edited by salmoned
Link to comment

Do hikers ask permission to hike?

Do Fshermen ask permission to fish?

Do Mtn. Bikers ask permission to ride the trails?

Do Bird Watchers ask the Big Eagle for permission to watch a bunch of feathers?

Do I ask for permission to have a beer.

 

I will use the land as per posted regulations. And if it has regulations then I will go elsewhere before I ask for permission.

 

Your list seems strangely truncated. How about:

 

Do hikers ask permission to hike and throw their water bottles and trash all around trails?

Do fishermen ask permission to fish and throw beer cans and bottles all around?

Do mountainbikers ask permission to ride trails or make their own trails where they wish?

Do squatters ask permission to squat?

Do thieves ask permission to steal?

Does ignorance of the law provide an excuse?

Link to comment

...In Hawaii, all state and local land has regulations concerning abandoned property. Said regulations define abandoned property in such a way that geocaches are included (without, of course, being specifically mentioned). Even IF permission is given by an authorizing official (which is unlikely, since it would require breaking the law), it would be unlawful, until such time that the law is rewritten. As well, if you leave your car parked on the road over 48 hours without moving it, it may be towed.

 

If you dig into the law you will find that Abandoned property laws deal with personal property and not litter. Your car won't be thrown into one of those new super duty glad bags and by the roadside clean up crew. Instead the 'abandoned vehicle law' will be invoked and the process followed. By doing that the land manager (trans department in this case) will obtain title to the property. If they don't follow the process then title doesn't transfer.

 

On abandoned property the key word is abandoned. You are correct in that abandoned property laws are worded such that they can be applied to caches. However it's not that simple because a park doesn't have to remove it's own picnic tables. Nor do I have to throw away my kids pictures at the office because they have been unchanged for the last 3 years (I need to do something about that…) It helps if the abandoned property is actually abandoned. Further the use of abandoned property laws is usually discressionary, not obligatory. If someone abandoned a a picnic table at the park they may very well just leave it there.

Link to comment

Abandoned property is defined as ANY personal property left for a defined period of time on state or county land. Otherwise, why should anyone use paid storage facilities? The picnic tables aren't personal property, obviously - why choose such a lame example? Just as your photos example - lame. If you left your job, your photos WOULD be removed. When you claim the laws are discretionary, that is untrue in theory (though true in practice - ALL laws are enforced in a discretionary manner). I knew I should add the irrelevant vehicle comment, as those always seem to garner the most interest.

Edited by salmoned
Link to comment

 

Your list seems strangely truncated. How about:

 

Do hikers ask permission to hike and throw their water bottles and trash all around trails?

Do fishermen ask permission to fish and throw beer cans and bottles all around?

Do mountainbikers ask permission to ride trails or make their own trails where they wish?

Do squatters ask permission to squat?

Do thieves ask permission to steal?

Does ignorance of the law provide an excuse?

 

The first two items on your list are (not surprisingly) disingenuous. It implies that geocachers toss litter all over the trails on their way to hide/hunt a cache. You can hardly equate an ammocan under a rock with beer, water bottles and trash strewn across the trails.

 

Social trails are a valid issue, and good cache owners should monitor the impact of their cache on the land.

 

The next two items are hardly relevant to getting permission for a cache.

 

The last item is a valid point. We all need to be aware of regulated uses of public land that we are considering for cache placement.

Link to comment

BA, by taking my comments out of context, you've missed the kernel of the point. The previous poster was comparing the need for permission for various activities. The hiker was not meant to be a geocacher, nor was the fisherman. I doubt you'd question that some hikers DO throw away their trash on trails (I know, I've CITOed my share), or that some fishermen do likewise. The point is, they're not asking permission because they may be ignorant of the need to do so, just as they may be ignorant of the virtues of good behavior.

Edited by salmoned
Link to comment

I caught the point.

 

The comparison was suggested that hikers need not ask permission to hike so why should geocachers ask permission to hide?

 

Your comparison suggested that hikers litter as do geocachers.

 

I know you enjoy arguing on the forums, but you can easily make valid points without going to extremes or playing word games.

Link to comment

Abandoned property is defined as ANY personal property left for a defined period of time on state or county land.

 

It's not quite that simple. Common law requires an intent to relinquish all rights to property for it to be considered abandoned. It varies per state depending on how/if commonlaw was codified.

 

EDIT: Spaces are good.

Edited by Bull Moose
Link to comment

Sorry, BA, I'm afraid you don't get it. The thread is about asking permission, not littering. So any valid comparison is in relation to the thread topic, not a side issue. As for wordplay, in this instance I phrased my response in the same manner as the previous poster for the purpose of clarity. There is no wordplay per se, other than the normal wordplay associated with using a word for it's specific meaning.

Link to comment

Abandoned property is defined as ANY personal property left for a defined period of time on state or county land.

 

It's not quite that simple. Common law requires an intent to relinquish all rights to property for it to be considered abandoned. It varies per state depending on how/if commonlaw was codified.

 

EDIT: Spaces are good.

 

Very good in general, but I am only referring to my state/county. I believe it does make it that simple when abandoned property is defined in the statutes as above without any reference to intent.

Link to comment

I made a few calls today to see what the local park and rec. department and the local state park felt about geocaching in my area.

 

The park and rec department informed me they are aware of the presence of geocaches on city grounds, but have no current stance on if it is legal or illegal as such an issue would need to be brought up before the city council and thus far has never reached that point. They also informed me that any cache found by a employee of their department is pretty much at the mercy of that employee as to decide to leave it be or remove it.

 

The individual working the gate of the local state park told me that he is familiar with geogaching and the caches located in the state park grounds and that he has never recieved an offical order from the state on any need to obtain a permit to hide a cache on the grounds of the park. He also told me that he has met many friendly geocachers in the park and that 80% or more of them tend to pick up litter on their way to and from the caches and he personally finds it a interesting and harmless hobby.

 

Honestly I use the "frisbee rule" myself when it comes to parks and forests, but did ask permission before hiding the only cache I've yet to put out as it was on private property.

Link to comment

Your list seems strangely truncated. How about:

 

Do hikers ask permission to hike and throw their water bottles and trash all around trails?

 

Do fishermen ask permission to fish and throw beer cans and bottles all around?

 

Littering is against the law where I live.

 

Do mountainbikers ask permission to ride trails or make their own trails where they wish?

 

Creating unauthorized trails is against the law where I live.

 

Do thieves ask permission to steal?

 

Theft is against the law where I live

 

Do squatters ask permission to squat?

 

Squatting laws vary from place to place, but in some instances squatters have legal standing.

 

Does ignorance of the law provide an excuse?

 

Of course not, but I'm not aware of any anti-geocaching laws where I live.

Link to comment

What else did Fahrenheit 911 teach you about Geocaching?

 

I've never seen it, but I'll hazard a guess you're accusing me of not having the ability to think for myself or form my own opinions?

 

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm actually fairly adept at forming my own thoughts and opinions. I don't need the media, hollywood, or anyone else tell me what I should think.

Link to comment

What else did Fahrenheit 911 teach you about Geocaching?

 

I've never seen it, but I'll hazard a guess you're accusing me of not having the ability to think for myself or form my own opinions?

 

Sorry to dissapoint you, but I'm actually fairly adept at forming my own thoughts and opinions. I don't need the media, hollywood, or anyone else tell me what I should think.

 

Don't want to veer any further off-topic, but I was not accusing you of parroting Michael Moore so much as offering you an opportunity to distance yourself from a bitter and sophomoric comment that is provably untrue. But if you insist that the US is the least free among nations, and that that comment is the product of your aptitude for independent thought and opinion formation, so be it.

Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...