Coin Ownership From A Legal Perspective.

[+Kealia]

Just wondering . . . has Moun10bike weighed in on this?

 

Yes he has. Search under Moun10Bike coin and look at the final posts in the closed threads.

[+pdxmarathonman]

what Kealia said

Edited April 24, 2006 by pdxmarathonman

[+Renegade Knight]

....If I walked into the forest, and in plain view of a police officer walked behind a tree, grabbed a piece of tupperware full of mcjunk and geocoins and walked away with it, I would have absolutely no fear of being arrested for theft....

 

Nor would I. However enforcment is not the same as ownership. If you walk away with a coin/cache it's theft. While the police may not enforce it due to other priorites the issue can be forced and provided the burdon of proof is met the law is on the side of the owner and the theif will be punished.

 

I ran into this issue when the window was shot out of my rig. No enforcment effort beyond providing what I needed to get my insurance to pay off.

[+Renegade Knight]

...Legally speaking couldn't each cache be considered littering?...

 

In this case it depends on the wording of the law. Permission will typically negate any litter charge. The fact that ownership is claimed over the item also seems to make a difference since there are a lot of Sheriff's that threaten charges over caches. Most litter laws cover debrist and refuse not personal property with an active ownership interest.

 

Abandoned property laws do come into play on public lands since those laws are designed to deal with personal property. Again though it's personal property with an active interest and not actually abandoned property. Here it's a case of the letter of the law fits but not the spirit.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

I don't think it is as much a legal issue as it is an ethical one.

If someone places an item with the intent to travel, then ethically, as a game participant, I would hope it would travel.

 

The Moun10Bike coins are pretty clearly noted as a keep me or keep me moving item. Others are clearly noted as keep me moving items. Many are non-trackable and hence a trade item.

 

Legally, I think possession of an item left in a public area would reside with the "finder" of the item. Especially given that the item was effectively abandoned.

 

However, ethically, I think you are stealing far more than a coin when you pocket it and refuse to move a travel bug or coin -- you are stealing an aspect of the game and cheating the person that placed it of enjoying it's movements (as well as cheating those that may have enjoyed finding it and moving it from cache to cache)

 

In fact, I think the legal argument is a Red Herring designed to test the waters and see whether or not there is some justification for taking an item out of circulation. Legally you may be entitled -- ethically and morally I would say shame on you. (not YOU, you, but to whomever was the person taking the TB out of the game).

 

It's the same debate on what is a trade item, what is a fair trade, etc.

 

I think people intuitively know when they have done something ethically wrong. If you have coins in your collection or on eBay that were intended to travel and were activated by another cacher --- you know that, legal or not, you have done something low.

 

If you trade a found golf ball for a $6 metal coin or a new, packaged toy -- you know you have traded unfairly.

 

The law is supposed to ensure fairness and equality. Here is a prime example of where it would be used as a crutch for those seeking to justify the taking of a coin from a cache and keeping or selling it. Legally -- you would win. Karmatically and ethically you already know your answer......look inside.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Lemon Fresh Dog

[+Hula Bum]

Really well said LFD, thank you.

[+4 Walls]

First my question is not a "Red Herring" but a legitimate question.

 

Second, it is highly unlikely that any claims of ownership to a coin placed in circulation through a cache would be enforceable.

 

A coin gifted or traded or sold to an individual may have specific conditions attached to it such non-saleability. This would have to be agreed to prior to transfer taking place. To place something in a box in a public venue and expecting to retain ownership rights that are enforceable is not practical.

 

Ideally it would be a wonder world if everyone would just pass coins on after logging them. But that is not the case.

 

Any lawyers out there?

 

Dan

[+Rubiconlwb]

I'll give my opinion by way of showing an example. Let's say I own a tool which I keep in my garage and a neighbor or friend wants to borrow it. That person then sells that tool on e-bay. Is this right? Certainly not! Is it legal? Certainly not! I might even let this tool be borrowed quite often but does that mean that someplace along the line I relinqueshed ownership? I don't think so and to me, this would apply in the case of geocoins as well. I purchased this item and if I choose to let others see and handle my coin for short periods of time, it doesn't mean I don't own it. I may not have much control over what happens to it once I release it but it is still mine just the same.

[+Cache-bert]

I believe the act of one cacher holding another cacher's activated coin probably would technically be classified as a legal "bailment". A bailment essentially means that someone has possession of someone else's property for a certain reason and the care required to look after that property depends mainly on the relationships between the two parties. There can be bailments for the benefit of the bailee, the bailor, or a mutually beneficial bailment. For instance, if I ask to borrow someone's car and they agree, I would be the bailee and since the bailment is for my benefit, I have to exercise a high degree of care with the car. If I didn't ask to borrow the car and the other party just left it in my driveway for his benefit, I would be held to a lower degree of care. I couldn't purposely damage it but probably wouldn't legally be required to roll up the windows, lock the doors, or remove the keys to prevent it from being stolen. If I had a garage and someone left a car for me to fix, it would be a mutually beneficial bailment, and I would have to take reasonable care to make sure it was returned to the owner safely.

 

I think if a cacher finds an activated geocoin and if he or she understands what a geocoin is, it would probably constitute a mutually beneficial bailment. Both cachers would get the benefit of playing the game with the coin and I think the finder probably would technically have the legal duty to follow the reasonable wishes of the cacher who activated it.

 

Who wants to be the first to file suit and set the legal precedent for geocoins?

[+SunshineGang]

I'll give my opinion by way of showing an example. Let's say I own a tool which I keep in my garage and a neighbor or friend wants to borrow it. That person then sells that tool on e-bay. Is this right? Certainly not! Is it legal? Certainly not! I might even let this tool be borrowed quite often but does that mean that someplace along the line I relinqueshed ownership? I don't think so and to me, this would apply in the case of geocoins as well. I purchased this item and if I choose to let others see and handle my coin for short periods of time, it doesn't mean I don't own it. I may not have much control over what happens to it once I release it but it is still mine just the same.

 

the mountain bike coin is a bit different. Presumably your niegbor or friend asked to borrow the tool in which they have a verbal contract to return it. Failure to return it would definately be stealing.

 

but the better example is what if your neighbor takes his brand new 18v cordless drill and put's it in a tuperware container in the park under an old down tree. If I find it and take it home and ebay it did I do anything immoral? how about illegal? Think I could be prosecuted?

[+doublestuff]

On the top of the page for all trackables there is a five letter word that says "owner". You usually become owner to any of these in one of two ways 1) You purchase the coin or TB tag and activate it 2) you adopt it from a previous owner.

 

Once a trackable is released it is true who knows what is going to happen to it. However one thing is certain, once the trakcable is dropped and picked up by another cacher it is not automatically adopted out to whoever picked it up nor does the actual ownership of the coin change hands. Therefore the owner is still the person that acivated the item.

 

So with that being said Moun10bike mints a coin and releases them into the wild already activated under his profile until he sees fit to adopt a coin out to another cacher Moun10bike still is the rightful owner of the coin.

 

Damenace is dead on... This makes perfect sense to me.

[+ctgreybeard]

but the better example is what if your neighbor takes his brand new 18v cordless drill and put's it in a tuperware container in the park under an old down tree. If I find it and take it home and ebay it did I do anything immoral? how about illegal? Think I could be prosecuted?

I could use a new drill ... where was it that you said that cache was?

 

But, serially, I agree with you completely and I think your example is spot on. If most people found something, hidden in Tupperware container, in the PUBLIC woods they would think that it would be theirs to keep. That we have this "special" rule that travelling items need to move along is simply a "convention" and could never be considered the rule of law.

 

JMO,

 

Bill W

[+Corp Of Discovery]

Interesting thread.

 

My .02.

 

Is it right for someone to sell it against the 'owners' wishes? No.

 

Do I think it would be worth it to challenge in court? No.

 

Do I think it would win if it were challenged? No.

 

Here's why. I basically hold to the abandonded property point. Failing that there is also the issue of keep it or move it. Once permission is given for someone to keep an item I think a very good case could be made that once possession is established the 'don't sell' caveat is null and void. The person who has established possession, with permission of the original owner mind you, is then free to do what they will with said item. The absence of any written, or other, agreement makes much of any discussion a moot point. That same absence would actually strengthen my argument. Basically, if I give you an item to keep, can I then tell you that you can't do what you want with it? I don't think so.

 

Another point, that I'm not sure has been brought up, is that of jurisdiction. That alone is a whole other legal entanglement. Where do you pursue a case? In the state of the owner, where it was found or would it be a federal case as it may very well stretch across state lines.

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

First my question is not a "Red Herring" but a legitimate question.

 

Second, it is highly unlikely that any claims of ownership to a coin placed in circulation through a cache would be enforceable.

 

A coin gifted or traded or sold to an individual may have specific conditions attached to it such non-saleability. This would have to be agreed to prior to transfer taking place. To place something in a box in a public venue and expecting to retain ownership rights that are enforceable is not practical.

 

Ideally it would be a wonder world if everyone would just pass coins on after logging them. But that is not the case.

 

Any lawyers out there?

 

Dan

 

Your question is not a Red Herring, the argument is. (or at least I am suggesting that the argument of legality is -- so please take no offense -- I am taking the argument for legal ownership as a justification for actions which most reasonable people would regard as ethically questionable).

 

As for an analogy. Suppose you are driving and someone walks into a crosswalk which clearly states "do not walk". You are able to stop, but have the right of way and hence continue and hit the person with your vehicle. You can claim a legal right, but can you really morally claim to be "right"?

 

Let's say you find someones wedding ring engraved with their name, you keep it. Legal? -- yes. Moral?- no.

 

This then brings me back to why I suggest the legal question is a bit of a Red Herring. What is the objective of the question? Is it to determine "correctness" of the an action or just whether the action is allowable within the framework of the law?

 

Legally I think you own the coin if you possess it. However, do not confuse the affirmative to this question as an afirmation of your ethics should you actually keep it. (hence the whole Red Herring thing).

 

...oh, and should you take offense or otherwise see this as a personal attack -- don't. I am not suggesting you are unethical at all! (unless you are taking TB's and keeping them)

[+pdxmarathonman]

I'll give my opinion by way of showing an example. Let's say I own a tool which I keep in my garage and a neighbor or friend wants to borrow it. That person then sells that tool on e-bay. Is this right? Certainly not! Is it legal? Certainly not! I might even let this tool be borrowed quite often but does that mean that someplace along the line I relinqueshed ownership? I don't think so and to me, this would apply in the case of geocoins as well. I purchased this item and if I choose to let others see and handle my coin for short periods of time, it doesn't mean I don't own it. I may not have much control over what happens to it once I release it but it is still mine just the same.

You forgot to go hide your tools in the woods and give your neighbor the coordinates (along with giving the coordinates to the entire www community). Tools gone. You not owner.

[+4 Walls]

First my question is not a "Red Herring" but a legitimate question.

 

Second, it is highly unlikely that any claims of ownership to a coin placed in circulation through a cache would be enforceable.

 

A coin gifted or traded or sold to an individual may have specific conditions attached to it such non-saleability. This would have to be agreed to prior to transfer taking place. To place something in a box in a public venue and expecting to retain ownership rights that are enforceable is not practical.

 

Ideally it would be a wonder world if everyone would just pass coins on after logging them. But that is not the case.

 

Any lawyers out there?

 

Dan

 

Your question is not a Red Herring, the argument is. (or at least I am suggesting that the argument of legality is -- so please take no offense -- I am taking the argument for legal ownership as a justification for actions which most reasonable people would regard as ethically questionable).

 

As for an analogy. Suppose you are driving and someone walks into a crosswalk which clearly states "do not walk". You are able to stop, but have the right of way and hence continue and hit the person with your vehicle. You can claim a legal right, but can you really morally claim to be "right"?

 

Let's say you find someones wedding ring engraved with their name, you keep it. Legal? -- yes. Moral?- no.

 

This then brings me back to why I suggest the legal question is a bit of a Red Herring. What is the objective of the question? Is it to determine "correctness" of the an action or just whether the action is allowable within the framework of the law?

 

Legally I think you own the coin if you possess it. However, do not confuse the affirmative to this question as an afirmation of your ethics should you actually keep it. (hence the whole Red Herring thing).

 

...oh, and should you take offense or otherwise see this as a personal attack -- don't. I am not suggesting you are unethical at all! (unless you are taking TB's and keeping them)

 

I do not feel you are attacking me and take no offense from your response. Ethics and Legal are very often 2 separate things. Like you said I may do something that is technically legal but from a moral/legal stand point it is wrong.

 

My whole question was intended to try to clarify legal ownership of GeoCoin once it is released. My position on the matter is once it is released for anyone who may deliberately or unintentionally come into possesion of it now becomes the legal owner and is free to do with it as they see fit. The original owner or iterim owners have given up the right to control its destiny once released.

 

The crux of the argument is you have placed an object deliberately in a public place, where anyone regardless of affiliation with Geocaching may find this object. You do not have a reasonable expection that it will ever be returned to you since you do not know who if anyone will find it and what their motivations are.

 

You have in fact abandoned it, and by abandoning it given up any say in its future status.

 

If you directly gift a coin to an individual or group, you have the right to specify to those persons that it may be used only a specific manner for them to retain ownership. But unless it is agreed those conditions carry forward to anyone they may gift it to or their heirs (ie making a temporary loan to be returned for certain reasons or time frame, much like art is loaned to museums) then subsequent giftees very likely may not be bound by your agreement.

 

The ownership argument being made because someone owns a copyright is off base. The copyright covers the design of the article, not the article its self. The article may still be sold by someone other than the copyright holder. If this argument were valid than it would be illegal to sell most things at a garage sale because of copyright infringement. Copyright applies to who may or may not reproduce the item. Selling a coin is not an infringement of copyright. Secondly most copyrights for geocoins are retained by the manufacturer. The reason they do this is to keep people from taking a design they have made molds and dies for and then having another manufacturer produce the finished product those reducing their profit.

 

Analogies about entering private property and taking tools, is pure theft and not a practical comparison to finding a can of stuff in a park, the woods or other place that has reasonably free run of the public. If I have a can of stuff in my yard that I own, rent, lease or otherwise legally control, and someone came onto that property without my permission and removed things then it would be theft as they had no legal right to be there.

 

I think I am finished, unless someone can and will chime in who actually has a legal background especially in property law the question is getting no where and clarification will not occur.

 

Thanks everyone for their opinions, whether I agree with your opinion or not it was a very interesting thread!

 

Dan

[+Kealia]

The crux of the argument is you have placed an object deliberately in a public place, where anyone regardless of affiliation with Geocaching may find this object. You do not have a reasonable expection that it will ever be returned to you since you do not know who if anyone will find it and what their motivations are.

 

You have in fact abandoned it, and by abandoning it given up any say in its future status.

 

This is the part I don't agree with. When I release a coin or TB I have the expectation that I will see it again. I am not abondoning it, I am leaving it in a place that is part of a game where the rules state that it should be moved and it is my property.

 

Now, if I weren't geocaching and just left a prize under a rock for somebody to find (just for the heck of it) I would have no expectation of seeing it again or retaining ownership - those are very different scenarios IMO.

 

Call me crazy - I expect the best of people until I'm proven wrong. I expect that when I drop coins/TBs, they will move. Sure, a few will go MIA for whatever reason, but the expectation is that others will play by the rules.

[+Renegade Knight]

...the mountain bike coin is a bit different. Presumably your niegbor or friend asked to borrow the tool in which they have a verbal contract to return it. Failure to return it would definately be stealing.

 

but the better example is what if your neighbor takes his brand new 18v cordless drill and put's it in a tuperware container in the park under an old down tree. If I find it and take it home and ebay it did I do anything immoral? how about illegal? Think I could be prosecuted?

 

Yes. If you followed the process for found items (and there typically is one) then the law may in turn transfer ownership to you, or the park who runs the lost and found once you have done the legal right thing. After that if you ebay it, no problem. If you didn't though and the owner figures out that his serial number matches that eBay auction you may not go to jail but the owner can reclaim his drill. Coin. Cache. Whatever.

 

The key thing is that the law recognizes personal property rights and in turn has a defined process by which ownership or control is transfered.

 

The serial number makes it easier to prove ownership.

[+Renegade Knight]

...My position on the matter is once it is released for anyone who may deliberately or unintentionally come into possesion of it now becomes the legal owner and is free to do with it as they see fit. The original owner or iterim owners have given up the right to control its destiny once released....

 

That's where the conflict comes from.

 

If you pick up my coin and claim ownership and I also claim ownership there is a problem. The resolution to the problem is what you are after. If we both stand before the judge and make our case here is how it goes.

 

You: Your honor I found this in a cache I own it. The original owner abandoned it when they put it in the cache. I picked it up and tried to sell it on eBay. The other party cancled the sale and now I'm in court to enforce my rights as the rightful owner.

 

Me: Your honor, I released this coin as a travel bug to travel and that is the limit of the permission that I gave. My active interest in this coin proves that it was never abandoned. You can see from these print outs from the website that the intent that I retain ownwership but want the coin to travel from cache to cache is also very clear. Also you can see that the coin in question is mine because the tracking number corresponds to coin in dispute. Here is my reciept showing my original purchase. Lastly at any time I can change the coins goals on that page or recall it to my direct posession.

 

The ruling would go in my favor.

 

The only time it wouldn't is perhaps if the dispute was over an unactivated coin where ownership was never tracked or where there was no way to track ownership on the coin.

 

Later the judge would tell the story over dinner and everone would roll their eyes.

Edited April 25, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+Kealia]

...Later the judge would tell the story over dinner and everone would roll their eyes.

 

Ok, best line in this thread to-date.

[Not So Lost Puppies]

Just a quick note on this... as far as the found property issue goes, I think many communities have a period of time that must elapse before that property may be considered yours if no one claims it after you turn it in as being found. If no one steps forward to claim it, then it is considered yours.

 

In the case of TBs and coins... If the 'owner' contacts you about it, then it is not abandoned and the owners request to what happens with it should be honored.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

"Secondly most copyrights for geocoins are retained by the manufacturer. The reason they do this is to keep people from taking a design they have made molds and dies for and then having another manufacturer produce the finished product those reducing their profit."

 

Correct, sort of. The "manufacturer", however is not the minter though. The manufacturer is the creator of the coin or designer of the coin, ie:you. If you create the design, you own it. Having it reproduced for the dies does not indicate a transfer of ownership any more than scanning a photo from a magazine indicates that you own the photo. The dies and molds belong to the manufacturer, but not the designs themselves unless signed for under contract.

 

We were discussing legals rights of ownership. If a $5 coin is stolen and sold for $5000 because of whom it represents, but the coin itself can not be recovered, it can be argued that $4995 of the illegally earned profits must be repaid to the original owner. Profits were made because of the unique design that is owned by the "manufacturer" of the coin (ie: you). The coin is not worth money because of it's metallic and enamel components. It is worth money because of the design.

[+BadAndy]

For those that agree that an activated coin is "abandoned property"...

 

If I added the following text to my geocoin page, it would make it clear that I am not abandoning it as I have an ongoing goal to retrieve it.

 

"The goal for this coin is to travel the world from cache to cache and return to me in the summer of 2020. By removing this coin from a cache, you agree to help it along it's way."

[+Hula Bum]

"My position on the matter is once it is released for anyone who may deliberately or unintentionally come into possesion of it now becomes the legal owner and is free to do with it as they see fit. The original owner or iterim owners have given up the right to control its destiny once released."

 

So, basically, LFD was right, you are looking for the legal side of this to justify doing what you will with them once you get them. Am I reading this right?

 

Legally, it doesn't matter, the laws are complicated, as is jurisdiction and there is nobody that is going to prosecute even if they could.

 

Ethically on the other hand, a person isn't going to have a whole lot of friends in the geocaching community. But I'm thinking that if someone feels that changing the game and taking something that is not generally thought to be theirs for their own benefit is ok, then friends and respect probably don't matter much to them.

 

It's ok if I start taking the ammo cans and other containers right? After all they aren't "legally" anyones.

[+pdxmarathonman]

 

The ruling would go in my favor.

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one

[+Renegade Knight]

"Secondly most copyrights for geocoins are retained by the manufacturer. The reason they do this is to keep people from taking a design they have made molds and dies for and then having another manufacturer produce the finished product those reducing their profit."...

 

To the OP (which isn't fox-and-the-hound).

 

When I asked coin companies/factories about their copyright issues most of them left it to the coin maker (us geocachers like Fox said) to claim it on their own. The reason most don't mess with copyrights is that they work for large companies that do worry about them. A Coca Cola coin isn't going to have anyone other than Coca Cola copyrighting any of the coins design at any point in the process. Coin Companies tend to look at things as they are in the business of making coins for others. Copyrighting everthing about those coins would get in the way of that. However not every company plays by those rules. Some did claim a copyright.

[+Renegade Knight]

 

The ruling would go in my favor.

 

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one

 

That's how things go to court to begin with.

[+Rubiconlwb]

I think this is a very interesting discussion and one where everybody is right in their own mind, no problem. I don't believe it is an issue of 'legality', I think it is an issue for ethics. If I drop a credit card on the ground and somebody picks it up and charges 'stuff' on it, is this legal, ethical or even practical? No! When I place a coin or a TB or anything else in a cache, do I expect to see it ever again? No! Do I still consider that I own it and I may be a little irritated if someone would make dirty the whole concept of geocaching by selling it? You bet! Is any of this of any real import other than to pass along my $.02 worth? No again! It just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that people can throw their morals away to such a degree that they not only sell an item they find in a cache but then come up with 300 reasons why this is perfectly legit. If you do such a thing, at least admit that it might not be the most accepted behavior in the world and that some people may not appreciate your sense of right and wrong. 'Nuff said by me!

[YemonYime]

Take said coin, melt down, forge into bullet, shoot horse, commence beating.

[+Hula Bum]

Why u gotta bring a poor innocent horse into this!?

[YemonYime]

Why u gotta bring a poor innocent horse into this!?

 

Y'know, you're right. Let's use a lawyer!

[+Lemon Fresh Dog]

It does strike me as interesting that topic such as this invite so much comment. (guilty myself).

 

Bottom line. Does legality really matter? Only in the event of conflict and disagreement.

 

As cachers in a global "game", I think that we should just do what's right -- move Travel Bugs. That's what the game says.

 

Remember when you were kids and played hockey (baseball, whatever)? You just played. You followed the rules and didn't try to hurt or cheat the other players. No refs needed. There were some "grey" calls, but geocaching Travel Bugs just don't have the same subjective aspect as a sports goal (in the net vs in the cache) so there is no question as to what is the right thing to do.

 

Maybe one day we'll have a pro-circuit geocaching organization! Complete with cache-cops, referees, lawyers and the like. *sigh*

 

Why and when does legallity matter? When conflict occurs. Peace and Love, man.

[+elmosmelmo]

Yime,

 

My question is if you shot the horse, beat it, and left it in the woods and someone else found it would you still retain ownership?

[+Rattlingcrew]

How about a Replevin Coin, that would make an interesting topic. Basically, if I leave a coin in the box, Moun10Bike comes along and takes it, he hands it off to Jeremy who pawns it, Sorry Jeremy. The coin is reported stolen and the police confiscate it. A judge has to enter an order of replevin stating who the property belongs to after the completion of court proceedings.

 

Kansas has a law;

 

Section 220.430: Theft Of Lost Or Mislaid Property

 

A. Theft of lost or mislaid property is failure to take reasonable measures to restore lost or mislaid property to the owner by a person who has obtained control of such property, who knows or learns the identity of the owner thereof, and who intends to deprive the owner permanently of possession, use or benefit of the property.

 

B. Theft of lost or mislaid property is a Class A misdemeanor.

(CC 1965 §12-603; Ord. No. G-496 §2, 10-14-80)

 

That seems to apply, Glen

[+Rattlingcrew]

Sorry about double posting, did Moun10bike figure out which coin it was and lock it? That would have been great, a 2180 dollar coin, freight included, that he cannot log. Glen

[+5¢]

Yime,

 

My question is if you shot the horse, beat it, and left it in the woods and someone else found it would you still retain ownership?

 

As covered earlier in the thread, it depends on how long the horse has been laying there and in which state or providence you live in.

[+Haughton's Hunters]

A. Theft of lost or mislaid property is failure to take reasonable measures to restore lost or mislaid property to the owner by a person who has obtained control of such property, who knows or learns the identity of the owner thereof, and who intends to deprive the owner permanently of possession, use or benefit of the property.

 

That seems to apply, Glen

 

Not quite, the coins is NOT lost OR mislaid. It was intentionally left for others to discover and take.

 

So if I put the cordless drill that has been talked about before in a park and give coordinates to it to everyone. I then put a note on it saying "move this to another park". What then? A kid comes along and takes it and throws the note away. Was the property lost or mislaid? Nope, you put it there. The law you quote does not apply, sorry.

 

How many complete caches have disappeared? Been muggled? Well call the cops, someone stole it. Guess what...they won't care. You left it in a public place. To the best of your knowledge, some "good" citizen came along and picked up the trash they found and threw it away. Technically we are littering by leaving a cache anywhere and are breaking the law. But because we are a pretty responsible group, it is not looked at that way, although again, TECHINCALLY (and legally) it is.

 

Just my $0.02.

[+5¢]

Sorry about double posting, did Moun10bike figure out which coin it was and lock it? That would have been great, a 2180 dollar coin, freight included, that he cannot log. Glen

 

I actually had emailed the highest bidder before the bidding supposedly got closed down and the auction stopped who said the following......................... "Personally, I don't understand all the fuss about this. I might just use the coin as a valued key fob in the future. And I'd be very happy with that."

[YemonYime]

Yime,

 

My question is if you shot the horse, beat it, and left it in the woods and someone else found it would you still retain ownership?

 

As covered earlier in the thread, it depends on how long the horse has been laying there and in which state or providence you live in.

 

More importantly, did anyone hear the tree fall down and crush the lawyer who was trying to get a statement from the dead horse?

[+Rattlingcrew]

So if I put the cordless drill that has been talked about before in a park and give coordinates to it to everyone. I then put a note on it saying "move this to another park". What then? A kid comes along and takes it and throws the note away. Was the property lost or mislaid? Nope, you put it there. The law you quote does not apply, sorry.

 

It still applies, the kid knew the drill was not his, even though he found it. Glen

[+Rattlingcrew]

I actually had emailed the highest bidder before the bidding supposedly got closed down and the auction stopped who said the following......................... "Personally, I don't understand all the fuss about this. I might just use the coin as a valued key fob in the future. And I'd be very happy with that."

 

Obviously we are talking about somebody with a lot more money than I have! Glen

[+Haughton's Hunters]

So if I put the cordless drill that has been talked about before in a park and give coordinates to it to everyone. I then put a note on it saying "move this to another park". What then? A kid comes along and takes it and throws the note away. Was the property lost or mislaid? Nope, you put it there. The law you quote does not apply, sorry.

 

It still applies, the kid knew the drill was not his, even though he found it. Glen

 

Then by your standard, you can't take ANYTHING from a cache. It's not yours, you know it's not yours. So if you take a coin from a cache, wether you keep it or not, you're in the wrong.

 

So...in thinking about it, the law quoted then makes geocaching illegal in that state if swag is involved.

 

News flash, geocaching deemed illegal because finders are being arrested for not attempting to find the owners of the objects in the cache.

 

No? Legally..yes. Will it happen? No. Not even for a coin, sorry. Again, you put the coin in the cache with the INTENTION that someone else (that you may or most likely may not know) will come along, find the cache, and remove the coin.

 

You remain the creator, but you no longer own it. You willingly relinquished ownership when you placed it in that cache. The next person to take it from the cache is the owner and they can do as they please. if they are a responsible cacher, they will do as the person who activated the coin wishes (move the coin along most likely). But again, that is completely their choice.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Haughton's Hunters

[+pdxmarathonman]

So if I put the cordless drill that has been talked about before in a park and give coordinates to it to everyone. I then put a note on it saying "move this to another park". What then? A kid comes along and takes it and throws the note away. Was the property lost or mislaid? Nope, you put it there. The law you quote does not apply, sorry.

 

It still applies, the kid knew the drill was not his, even though he found it. Glen

Welcome to Utopia

[+4 Walls]

So, basically, LFD was right, you are looking for the legal side of this to justify doing what you will with them once you get them. Am I reading this right?

 

Even though many interesting concepts have been put forward in the last couple of days, I indicated that I felt we were getting no where with this thread. I did not intend plan to post any more. But a question is raised that deserves an answer. I put forward the question due to the several posts referring to the ownership of coins being sold on ebay etc. I am a very curious person and was intrigued the the question and of course the answer.

 

I am not doing anything that needs justification. I am a new collector of coins and recently ordered my first 2 coins. (Ellis Island and Yellowstone National Park) I try to be well informed and knowledgable about things in I am involved in.

 

One concept I will comment on was one on copyright and the right of a person to collect $4995 dollars if you sold "their" $5 coin for $5000. That argument is very weak. By that standard if I had a collectable Coca-Cola sign and sold it for $10,000 I would have to pay Coke several thousands of dollars........... I bet Coke would like that idea, or Disney or..................you get the picture.

 

Ok off my soap box.........

 

Dan

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

So are we done here?

 

Nothing wrong going on - just not sure what else can come of this thread.

 

<cue the crickets chirping>

[+fox-and-the-hound]

So, basically, LFD was right, you are looking for the legal side of this to justify doing what you will with them once you get them. Am I reading this right?

 

Even though many interesting concepts have been put forward in the last couple of days, I indicated that I felt we were getting no where with this thread. I did not intend plan to post any more. But a question is raised that deserves an answer. I put forward the question due to the several posts referring to the ownership of coins being sold on ebay etc. I am a very curious person and was intrigued the the question and of course the answer.

 

I am not doing anything that needs justification. I am a new collector of coins and recently ordered my first 2 coins. (Ellis Island and Yellowstone National Park) I try to be well informed and knowledgable about things in I am involved in.

 

One concept I will comment on was one on copyright and the right of a person to collect $4995 dollars if you sold "their" $5 coin for $5000. That argument is very weak. By that standard if I had a collectable Coca-Cola sign and sold it for $10,000 I would have to pay Coke several thousands of dollars........... I bet Coke would like that idea, or Disney or..................you get the picture.

 

Ok off my soap box.........

 

Dan

 

You have to read the piece in it's entirety. I said "if ownership was established" then it could be argued. Disney (case in point) as well as Warner Brothers have sued in the past for cases of profits made on stolen production that was sold illegally.

Edited April 28, 2006 by fox-and-the-hound

[+Renegade Knight]

...One concept I will comment on was one on copyright and the right of a person to collect $4995 dollars if you sold "their" $5 coin for $5000. That argument is very weak. By that standard if I had a collectable Coca-Cola sign and sold it for $10,000 I would have to pay Coke several thousands of dollars........... I bet Coke would like that idea, or Disney or..................you get the picture....

 

If you used the Coca Cola logo on your coin without permission and sold it for profit the Coke compnay has a case and will likely win. Doing it for no profit...things change. They have rights you have rights and it's fuzzier.

 

Normally everone involved in the making of a coin knows exactly what's going to happen. Joe Cacher makes a coin, sells some to cachers, puts some in caches, some show up in eBay, some go into collectoins, they are traded, drilled ,tracked. It's no suprise what the fate of a coin is. Everone involved including the artist knows this and it's assumed that all is well. In this case if Coca Cola agreed that you could be the Coca Cola kid for your coin and let you use the logo, they have no case for what happens in the aftermarket. A legal agreement between the artist and you can change all of this either to your beniefit or to the benifit of the artist.

[+Spruce Mooses]

What ever happened to good will in all of this.

I set a travel bug free, but do not abandon it. I regularly check it's progress and talk to the people who have picked it up in each place.

My other gripe is...who would buy an activated Geocoin?

[+Renegade Knight]

...who would buy an activated Geocoin?

Someone who wanted the coin but could not find one that was unactivated. The coin and the tracking are two different things and each can be owned separatly.