Coin Ownership From A Legal Perspective.

[+4 Walls]

Does a person maintain ownership and rights of ownership to a trackable once it is placed in a cache or given to another person?

 

I have been reading the various threads. what intrigues me are the ones where people are getting all worked up by people selling GeoCoins they have found on Ebay, caches etc. In particular coins that were made by Moun10bike.

 

I am afraid I do not understand what the uproar is about. I understand that Moun10bike prefers that these coins not be sold and why. What I do not understand are the statements that Moun10bike is the owner of these coins. Let me explain the basis of my confusion.

 

Once a person releases a geocoin or travelbug into a cache or to another person he is relinquishing not only possession but ownership to another person. There is no reasonable expectation that any trackable will be returned to the so called "owner". If a person wishes to retain ownership of a trackable then it should not placed in a cache or given it to another person. Furthermore, caches are generally placed on public property, which has little, if any restrictions on access by non-geocachers. Any,one may find the cache whether they participate in geochaching or not. Since a cache is left in a public place where it may be intentionally or unintentionally found by non-cachers ownership rights to any portion of the cache is limited at best.

 

In essence, it appears to me that once an item is left as part of a cache it has been abandoned and rights of ownership do not apply. I feel someone may make an argument that parking a car is no different than leaving a coin in a cache. But it is not there is a reasonable expectation that your car will be there when you return for it and it is not being left for another person, most likely unknown to you to take without an expectation of return.

 

Additionally, when a coin is transferred physically from Bob to Ed (sample names). Unless there is an agreement (a contract basically) between Bob and Ed, Ed is free to do what he wishes with the coin. I expect some folks might argue that such an agreement would exist between cachers and is implied and perpetuated indefinitley. I think such a contract would be very unenforcable especially since there is no guarantee of knowledge of such an agreement and transporting trackables across state lines would open another can of worms due to the differences in state laws and no likely laws that I know of from a federal stand point that would apply to Geo-Coins.

 

Whew! that was long-winded...........Basically, I don't think the coins listed for sale in various places belong to the original owner any more and unless they have literally been taken surreptiously from a home, someone's person or vehicle they do not qualify as stolen property. Just because we use the term "owner" when referring to a person who released a trackable does not give there rights of ownership once it is released.

 

So, legal eagles, what do you think? Am I off base?

 

Dan

Edited April 24, 2006 by 4Walls

[+Renegade Knight]

My take.

 

Travel Bugs and Geocoins are Personal Property. When they are travel bugs they remain the pesonal property of the owner. Placing it in a cache doesn't change who owns the item. If I take a coin or travel bug that is owned it is theft. Period. The owner could force the legal system to prosecute for theft (mostly by funding their own attorney and detectives since the value of a coin or travel bugs is so low it would not be worth the police departments time).

 

If I give you a coin then it become your personal property.

 

A contract can change or modify the rights of the person. Moun10bikes cache page for example will transfer a coin but not transfer the right to sell the coin.

 

The tracking of the coin is separate from the coin itself. Thus Moun10bike ownes all tracking on all his coins even if he has given all his coins away. (And Grounspeak will kill virtual travel bug tracking)

 

Lastly much of your case depends on abandoned property ideas. However that right is reserved to the government. A park can dispose of a coin or cache via the abandoned property laws, but you as Joe Cacher could not. If a cacher decided to test the legal system on this and took a coin and both the theif and owner had money enough and time to chase it down and force the legal system to work the theif would be charged and probably have their wrist slapped.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Renegade Knight

[+JMBIndy]

I view it that once I let loose a coin, be it in a cache or to another person, I no longer have ownership of it. I would hope that if I let it loose in a cache that the next person would keep in the spirit of the game and put it into the next cache, but since I cannot control the actions of others, I can only sit back and wait.

 

If I gave the coin to another, that's it; I've handed it off and I have no problem with that person doing with it as he or she pleases.

 

Now when I receive a coin, or a set of coins such as the Coinfusion project, if the creator specifically states that they are not to be sold I will respect the wishes of the owner and be happy to keep it in my collection.

 

The bottom line is that what happens to the coins is determined by the type of person who receives them, in my opinion.

 

As for the coin made by Moun10bike, the individual who is selling the coin received it as payment for a debt from another person. If he is not into geocaching, I believe he has the right to sell the coin to recoup the money owed to him. If any yelling is to be done over the sale, I believe the comments should be directed toward the person who turned over the coin to pay the debt. I, for one, have no problem with the transaction.

 

Edited for grammer....

Edited April 24, 2006 by JMBIndy

[+Hula Bum]

I don't think this has much to do with legal issues. It's what has been deemed and adopted as acceptable by the caching community. Once a bug/coin has an owner, it seems pretty clear that as the name implies, that person is the owner and retains the rights to the coin if you will. I do not see how this is so confusing to people and is a cause for so much misinterpretation.

 

If someone thinks that the "rules" should be changed then they should state their idea and see if the rest of the community wants to adopt the new way.

 

We really don't need analogies of cars, etc, they are not the same. This is a game that has it's own set of "rules" that incorporate basic principles of common sense (which isn't anymore).

[+Damenace]

On the top of the page for all trackables there is a five letter word that says "owner". You usually become owner to any of these in one of two ways 1) You purchase the coin or TB tag and activate it 2) you adopt it from a previous owner.

 

Once a trackable is released it is true who knows what is going to happen to it. However one thing is certain, once the trakcable is dropped and picked up by another cacher it is not automatically adopted out to whoever picked it up nor does the actual ownership of the coin change hands. Therefore the owner is still the person that acivated the item.

 

So with that being said Moun10bike mints a coin and releases them into the wild already activated under his profile until he sees fit to adopt a coin out to another cacher Moun10bike still is the rightful owner of the coin.

 

The person that turned the coin over in question to pay his debt was attempting to pay his debt with stolen property.

Edited April 24, 2006 by Damenace

[+Team JSAM]

You bought it, paid for it, you own it plain and simple! Who would buy a coin and set it free hoping that someone will steal it and resell it and give them none of the money made! The point of the coin is for others to enjoy NOT keep unless the owner has made it known to be otherwise.

[+Marky]

Let's say I buy a bike. Let's say I ask friend1 to ride my bike to another friends house (friend2), who wants to ride it to work, and then back to my house. Does the fact that friend1 has my bike make him the owner now? I think not.

 

--Marky

[+Pioneer 'n' Tiff]

Each area or jurisdiction has it's own legal system and criminal law applicable to property and ownership. Living in California now I'm not as adept as I was back in Australia where I was involved on a professional basis in the prosecution of offenders for theft. However, a couple of matters that seem to cross all jurisdictions are the following:

 

Ownership never changes during the asportation of property.

Stealing by finding is still stealing.

 

Having said that - and having travel bugs in motion myself, do I "relinquish" ownership of the TB because I place it in a cache. Nope - I do however give a tacit consent for the removal and placement of the travel bug to another cache.

 

I've not lost any of my own however I would think that purchasing by ebay or other means of property "suspected of being stolen" does not exonerate you from being a party to a criminal offence. Whilst stealing TB or coins is not in the same $$$ league as car theft, if you buy a vehicle without reasonable knowledge that the person has the right to sell it (papers, ID etc) you are just as culpable as if you yourself had stolen the car.

[YemonYime]

I don't think this has much to do with legal issues. It's what has been deemed and adopted as acceptable by the caching community. Once a bug/coin has an owner, it seems pretty clear that as the name implies, that person is the owner and retains the rights to the coin if you will. I do not see how this is so confusing to people and is a cause for so much misinterpretation.

 

If someone thinks that the "rules" should be changed then they should state their idea and see if the rest of the community wants to adopt the new way.

 

We really don't need analogies of cars, etc, they are not the same. This is a game that has it's own set of "rules" that incorporate basic principles of common sense (which isn't anymore).

 

Well, unfortunately at a going price of $2K, it could easily trigger legal issues, because what's deemed acceptable by the caching community isn't necessarily going to be upheld by a judge who's never heard of geocaching.

 

Keep in mind, I'm against the selling of this coin, but I'll play Devil's Advocate to show a plausible "outsiders view" on this issue.

 

If this ever were to go to court, I'd imagine the following to be the basic facts that are gleaned:

 

The "original owner" had a specialty item made, put one such item in a box, in the woods, presumably not their own property, and then freely walked away with the intention of leaving the item there, possibly even as a gift for the next person who finds the box. They displayed no intent to go back and retrieve the item. The original owner may also have made an exchange for another item in the box, and in the process, gained something from its deposit.

 

There was no direct "theft" of this item from it's original owner by the current holder, as the original owner placed multiple items in a similar manner. He/she would not reasonably have "recalled" any of the other items he/she placed in the other boxes, and is not claiming ownership for the purpose to regain possession of the item, but to determine it's use.

 

It's unfortunate, but I could easily see a judge declaring that regardless of what it says on a geocaching.com webpage, ownership of the coin was forfeited when it was "willfully abandoned". This seems to be a situation where "possession is nine-tenths of the law" is a very strong argument.

 

It sucks to think about it this way, but we realistically can't tell the next finder what to do with a deck of cards we dropped in a cache as swag, right? I mean, we could write "don't play poker with these" on each card with a big thick Sharpie, but once the cards are left behind, how can we reasonably expect anyone to honor that decree?

 

Regardless of this scenario, it's sad to see that geocoin collecting has degraded to this after being so enjoyable.

 

Oh, and I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

 

Yime

Edited April 24, 2006 by YemonYime

[+budd-rdc]

I appreciate the sensible replies from Renegade Knight and Pioneer 'n' Tiff.

 

I need clarifications on the "possession is 9/10th of the law." If this is more a rule than an exception, then thieves always have the advantage because they are in physical possession of the goods. It's obvious to me that for Moun10Bike Coins, ownership is pretty clear so should the "9/10th" really apply?

[+IceCreamMan]

As I recall from the few required law classes I took in my college days, the laws that would apply are those for abandonment/lost property. Ownership is not relinquished in either case. Knowingly taking an activated coin, with the intention of doing anything but moving it to another cache, is theft.

 

While it might be pretty far fetched to think it would ever be prosecuted, you'd think it would at least be enough to keep activated coins off of Ebay.

 

In the case of the moun10bike coin, it seems to me the owner has stated in the past they are for the finder to do with at as they wish. Though he may now wish to amend that as it relates to Ebay, I don't think it makes it stealing.

[+4 Walls]

Vey interesting replies, I see there is a sharp division on this topic. Are there any formally legally educated persons out there who could chime in with a more "legal" opinion?

 

While, I find some of the arguements interesting it still seems to my non-legally educated mind that you give up rights to an item once it is released.

 

Dan

[+sundialman]

one might also that the process of activation and review of the activation codes constitutes a "contract" between the geocacher and the other players of the game. As for muggles they might be notified of the presence of the contract by the fact that the coins have "trackable at xyz" written on them.

 

Signed Perry Mason.

 

And furthermore wasn't that Profesor Plum in the Cache with a GPS on that fateful night?

[+fox-and-the-hound]

Two things stand out in this and any case of a sold ACTIVATED coin. The owner is registered by activation as the sole owner. Regardless of who handles it, it belongs to the owner. End of debate

 

The second point is that the coin itself it a work of art. The design is owned solely by Moun10Bike and is protected by copyright law even if it's not registered. If the coin includes a Groundspeak logo, any profit made by selling of a coin could mean GS is party to a share of profit. Selling for profit any item containing a logo under sole ownership of another opens up a legal can of worms. Look at what happens to people selling knock-off items when they get caught.

 

I know point two get into a pretty grey area, but all the points are relevent for Moun10Bike's coins. He designed and paid for them. He activated them and registered as sole owner for everyone of them. Like a pieces of art traveling on a tour of museums, they all still belong to him.

 

just my 2cents.

[+Brian - Team A.I.]

My .14...

 

As with many other things in life, there is a respect issue here. With something such as the recent hot-button topic regarding a specific coin, anyone lucky enough to find one in a cache should simply abide by the owner's wishes who placed the cache. If it is not to be sold, have enough decency to respect this desire. If it is not to be traded, things get a bit iffy here, but the lucky finder should still follow the guidelines of the coin owner. Comparing a coin to say, a baseball card, the correlation can be made in preserving the 'integrity' of the coin, if only to increase personal emotional value, rather than one that makes it tough to sit on one's wallet.

 

On the flipside, if you buy a car from someone, what's to stop you from chopping the top, putting aftermarket equipment on, or simply converting it to a chicken coop? Absolutely nothing.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

 

On the flipside, if you buy a car from someone, what's to stop you from chopping the top, putting aftermarket equipment on, or simply converting it to a chicken coop? Absolutely nothing.

 

Nothing at all as long as it wasn't stolen when you bought it

[+mjp303]

While I agree that selling the coins violates Geocaching community standards, I'd appreciate a legal explanation of 'reasonable expectation of return' (if any such concept exists!). Most travel bugs and coins don't have a goal to eventually return to their owners, so I'm not sure if they are really owned or abandoned in a legal sense.

[+Eric K]

This is a very interesting discussion. Maybe someone can find some sort of message forum somewhere that deals with legal issues and post it there.

 

There has to be some kind of website that debates this kind of stuff.

 

I do think the original post wasn't referring to what's morally right or wrong. Just legally what's right or wrong. Morals don't mean much when it comes to legal issues.

[+Hula Bum]

Where are all the lawyers hiding??? Actually, I'm betting they don't want to get involved (smart people).

 

I would like to hear an "official" word on the abondonment/lost theory though. As I see it these coins are neither of those. The owners put them out with intent to move and keep an eye on them through logs.

 

I stand corrected, they are kind of like a car, like a rental car.

[+TEAM 360]

How about our legal expert, Rothstafari, getting in on this one?

 

Just because there is a sign that says 'owner', doesn't make it so...

You can put up all the signs you want, but that doesn't change the facts.

 

Maybe I should drive around with a bumper sticker that says 'Not responsible for any accidents'.

Yea, THAT will get me off the hook.

Edited April 24, 2006 by TEAM 360

[ParentsofSAM]

Ok I asked a a friend of mine who is an assistant district attorney, when I saw him at school this morning. Here is his legal opinion and in true lawyer fashion he sais this was all speculation since he did not have all the specific facts of the case:

 

In Georgia an item is abandoned property if left with no attempt of the owner to reclaim it for a period of 90 days. (this applies to this coins, expect for the GA part)

 

As abandoned property the current holder of it has the right to do with it as they please. ie. keep it, sell it, throw it away, etc... (this also applies to this coin)

 

He used the analogy of property being left being when a tenant moves out of an apartment. The apartment owner has to hold on to the stuff and if the tenant does not reclaim or attempt to do so within the specified time then the owner of the apartment them may claim ownership of the property and do with it as he please. Even if the said property is registered to someone else. ie. electronics, cell phones, computers, etc...

 

There are some excepts to this rule like if the property exceeds a certain value like a car or if it is a gun or other registered weapon. He said just because the coin was selling for $2000 on eBay that does not determine its value, so the coin would most likely not be exempt from the abandonment laws for its value.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

I wonder if that library book I borrowed three years ago can be claimed as abandoned?

 

Then again, every time a coin moves, it is being "re-abandoned" and gets a new 90 day lease on life

[+Kealia]

I don't see how these can be considered "abandoned".

They are property that somebody paid for, and placed somewhere as part of a game with the intention of them moving around (thus, the trackability). The expectation (while maybe not the reality) is that they will be moved, not kept.

 

In the car instance that Brian - Team A.I. mentioned. You're free to chop the top and throw the spinning rims on the car once you buy becuase you get the pink slip which transfers ownership . Since no change of ownership is made with the coins, you're not able to do what you like with them.

 

I'll throw out my own analogy since everybody else is, too.

My work bought a laptop for me to use as part of my job. The expectation is that while I am in possession of the laptop, it's understood (although not written) that I do not own it.

 

Can I quit my job and use that laptop to pay off a debt that I owe somebody?

He doesn't work for my company and doesn't have to abide by thier rules, right?

 

I do think this is a moral issue as well. As stated above, there is always a gap between what you can do and what you should do. As the silly citrus poiinted out - it's sad that coin collecting has fallen into that same gap and there is a divide.

[+Renegade Knight]

I appreciate the sensible replies from Renegade Knight and Pioneer 'n' Tiff.

 

I need clarifications on the "possession is 9/10th of the law." If this is more a rule than an exception, then thieves always have the advantage because they are in physical possession of the goods. It's obvious to me that for Moun10Bike Coins, ownership is pretty clear so should the "9/10th" really apply?

 

From my layments perspective since most personal property is not marked by the owner or identified uniquely so all other things being equil when the police are trying to figure out an "It's mine, no it's mine" situation all other thing being equil they would have to go with the person who actually possesses it.

 

Serial numbers, uniquely identifiable features documentation etc. make it easier to prove ownership. With geocoins any numbered coin can be entered into a registry (a project of mine on the back burner if I can ever find a programmer) to prove ownership. The travel bug pages also are handy documentation of ownership that make the "I've got it, I own it" argument rather moot since you can easily look up the owner by the coins number.

[+SunshineGang]

I wonder if that library book I borrowed three years ago can be claimed as abandoned?

 

Then again, every time a coin moves, it is being "re-abandoned" and gets a new 90 day lease on life

 

Completely different. I am sure that you signed a legally binding contract with the library that will hold you liable for the use and return of the books.

 

Now if the library starts leaving books out in the woods in ammo boxes then it is likely the books will be yours to keep.

[+Eric K]

Ok I asked a a friend of mine who is an assistant district attorney, when I saw him at school this morning. Here is his legal opinion and in true lawyer fashion he sais this was all speculation since he did not have all the specific facts of the case:

 

In Georgia an item is abandoned property if left with no attempt of the owner to reclaim it for a period of 90 days. (this applies to this coins, expect for the GA part)

 

As abandoned property the current holder of it has the right to do with it as they please. ie. keep it, sell it, throw it away, etc... (this also applies to this coin)

 

He used the analogy of property being left being when a tenant moves out of an apartment. The apartment owner has to hold on to the stuff and if the tenant does not reclaim or attempt to do so within the specified time then the owner of the apartment them may claim ownership of the property and do with it as he please. Even if the said property is registered to someone else. ie. electronics, cell phones, computers, etc...

 

There are some excepts to this rule like if the property exceeds a certain value like a car or if it is a gun or other registered weapon. He said just because the coin was selling for $2000 on eBay that does not determine its value, so the coin would most likely not be exempt from the abandonment laws for its value.

 

That would make sense. When I worked in electronics repair. If a customer didn't pick up their unit after 90 days technically ownership transferred to the company.

 

Once again, I think none of us are agreeing this kind of activity should take place. Just legally I find this topic very interesting.

 

By the way, you'll never get a straight answer from a lawyer for free!

[+Eric K]

I wonder if that library book I borrowed three years ago can be claimed as abandoned?

 

Then again, every time a coin moves, it is being "re-abandoned" and gets a new 90 day lease on life

 

Completely different. I am sure that you signed a legally binding contract with the library that will hold you liable for the use and return of the books.

 

Now if the library starts leaving books out in the woods in ammo boxes then it is likely the books will be yours to keep.

 

Also, if the library keeps their records straight, they will charge you for the lost book. Therefore you would have to pay for it and then you would own it.

[+Renegade Knight]

...In Georgia an item is abandoned property if left with no attempt of the owner to reclaim it for a period of 90 days. (this applies to this coins, expect for the GA part)

 

As abandoned property the current holder of it has the right to do with it as they please. ie. keep it, sell it, throw it away, etc... (this also applies to this coin)...

 

I've also spoken with an attorney on the subject for different reasons. Your attorney is correct in his usage of abandoned property (as you would expect from a legal expert) but the situation doesn't fit and other laws to cover the ownership of personal property also apply.

 

For one thing ownership is claimed the entire time and the cache and coin are not abandoned. We are not leaving the object behind but activly tracking it via a website. While not written it's built into caching that at any time we can reclaim the object be it our own travel bug or cache. Also the travel bug page is essentially giving permission for the object to be moved around. Thus there is a contract of sorts between the owner and the finder. If I entered into a contract with the next tenant of an aparment to watch my stuff they could not claim the abandoned property. Also remember that solen property doesn't automaticly become abandoned at 90 days and thereby free and clear to sell.

 

Having said all that there is also likely a time frame or process by which at which the coin would enter the ownership of the person holding it or allowing for its dosposal/salvage. For all intents and purposes thou that time frame won't be when the owner is activly interested in their coin.

[+Renegade Knight]

...That would make sense. When I worked in electronics repair. If a customer didn't pick up their unit after 90 days technically ownership transferred to the company....

 

The law allows for a mechanics lein on property. You will find that the same deal applies to taking your car in for repair. Often that lein is in the fine print of the service contract for the repair. Even when it's not there are provisions in the law for them. The person leaving thir equipment has agreed in writing (or indirectly by law) to either paying for the repair or losing the item to cover the cost. Even so if you did a 5 dollar repair job and sold the item for 10,000, the other 9995 would probably have to be returned to the owner less attorneys fees and costs.

 

Technically you would have to be repairing the geocoin to invoke this law. There may also be provisions where the repair wasn't authorized. A thief could drop off a VCR for repair but the owner still has certain rights even if the theif doesn't pay for the repair.

[ParentsofSAM]

I don't see how these can be considered "abandoned".

They are property that somebody paid for, and placed somewhere as part of a game with the intention of them moving around (thus, the trackability). The expectation (while maybe not the reality) is that they will be moved, not kept.

 

In the car instance that Brian - Team A.I. mentioned. You're free to chop the top and throw the spinning rims on the car once you buy becuase you get the pink slip which transfers ownership . Since no change of ownership is made with the coins, you're not able to do what you like with them.

 

I'll throw out my own analogy since everybody else is, too.

My work bought a laptop for me to use as part of my job. The expectation is that while I am in possession of the laptop, it's understood (although not written) that I do not own it.

 

Can I quit my job and use that laptop to pay off a debt that I owe somebody?

He doesn't work for my company and doesn't have to abide by thier rules, right?

 

I do think this is a moral issue as well. As stated above, there is always a gap between what you can do and what you should do. As the silly citrus poiinted out - it's sad that coin collecting has fallen into that same gap and there is a divide.

 

Just to be clear I do not think they are abandoned property and they should not be sold on eBay. I believe that I still own my geocoins and TBs that are out there traveling. I would be very upset if one of them was stolen or sold on eBay.

 

Problems arise when some geocoin collectors attempt project the morals and standards of the geocaching community onto someone else.

 

The library book and work laptop example do not compare because you have entered (whether verbal or written) a contract with your company and Fox and the Hound entered one with the library with the library to return the items. There is an expectation of return of the property by the owners. That is not always so with TBs and geocoins. Especially when the geocoin has statement on its information page that states it may be kept.

 

The OP asked for the legal views of geocoins and it would appear the the law may see things different than the geocaching community.

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Let me play devil's advocate for those who claim them to be abandoned:

 

Do you feel the same way about your caches? You're leaving a box out in the woods, so what gives yo uthe right to still claim ownership of it? What if the next cacher decided to move it, change the hide style, or even take it?

 

Wouldn't you be up in arms about "your" cache?

 

I don't want to derail the topic to talk about caches instead of coins, but food for thought.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

I wonder if that library book I borrowed three years ago can be claimed as abandoned?

 

Then again, every time a coin moves, it is being "re-abandoned" and gets a new 90 day lease on life

 

Completely different. I am sure that you signed a legally binding contract with the library that will hold you liable for the use and return of the books.

 

Now if the library starts leaving books out in the woods in ammo boxes then it is likely the books will be yours to keep.

 

Also, if the library keeps their records straight, they will charge you for the lost book. Therefore you would have to pay for it and then you would own it.

 

I was being facetious of course, I always return my library books but the idea is the same. Just because it's in my possession, it doesn't mean I own it. The book (like our coin) is a registered borrowed object that must be returned when called for. I can't borrow a book, lend it to a friend and allow that friend to sell it. And yes, if we're watching records, a activated coin should be traveling. When it suddenly stops traveling and goes up for sale, that's when it becomes selling stolen property.

As for the legally binding contract... when we opened our profiles we all agreed to abide by the rules. By activating that profile you "signed" a legal and binding document. You willing agreed to abide by all the rules set forth. You can't give away property you don't own to be sold and not think you're going to held accountable. As I've heard police say countless times (working for the News) Ignorance is no defense.

Edited April 24, 2006 by fox-and-the-hound

[+Renegade Knight]

...The second point is that the coin itself it a work of art. The design is owned solely by Moun10Bike and is protected by copyright law even if it's not registered. If the coin includes a Groundspeak logo, any profit made by selling of a coin could mean GS is party to a share of profit. Selling for profit any item containing a logo under sole ownership of another opens up a legal can of worms. Look at what happens to people selling knock-off items when they get caught. ...

 

Big gray area. The coin's are is actully producted by the person who makes the design for the die. Typically the coin company doesn't claim the copyrigt but some do.

 

That aside unless there is a contract for a cut of each subsiquent sale of the coin the artist only gets their intial pament from when the coins were first made and sold. After that the copyright only protects the artist intersts in that they can make more of the coin or use the design in other ways and sell it while I as a buyer can't use the design and can only appreciate and enjoy the coin itself. I do have some fair use things like taking a photo to sell it on eBay, or perhaps to build a coin database so you can see the coins placeholder. However fair use has changed and I really don't know it's limits.

[+SunshineGang]

Let me play devil's advocate for those who claim them to be abandoned:

 

Do you feel the same way about your caches? You're leaving a box out in the woods, so what gives yo uthe right to still claim ownership of it? What if the next cacher decided to move it, change the hide style, or even take it?

 

Wouldn't you be up in arms about "your" cache?

 

I don't want to derail the topic to talk about caches instead of coins, but food for thought.

 

I would not like a Sunshinegang Geocoin that I activated and gave it a mission of traveling to be found and sold on ebay.

 

I would attempt to contact the seller and get the coin back into a cache. But I would not bother calling the police. I am confident that the law would not be able to prosecute the seller nor force them to give it back. I understand these risks and still am releasing Sunshinegang coins. By the way most of my coins and bugs that I have activated have gone missing and I am pretty sure they are not being bought and sold. Just some bum has not moved them on and logged them.

 

I guess I am just lucky that my Sunshinegang coins are not worth $2000 on ebay

[ParentsofSAM]

As for the legally binding contract... when we opened our profiles we all agreed to abide by the rules. By activating that profile you "signed" a legal and binding document. You willing agreed to abide by all the rules set forth. You can't give away property you don't own to be sold and not think you're going to held accountable. As I've heard police say countless times (working for the News) Ignorance is no defense.

 

Yes we agree to the terms, but others have not. As for Moun10bike coins, it says right on the tracking page that the finder of the coin my keep, trade or gift the coin. If it is gifted which is within the right of the holder of the coin to someone they are not bound by the rules placed on the coin or by this website. This is not the same as giving a library book or work computer to someone else. You never had the right to gift it, to begin with.

 

Again I am not condoning the selling or gifting of activated geocoins, that are to be sold. I would not do it, nor have I. I think everyone jsut has to understand they do not have a legal leg to stand on. That does not make it ok or right. Defender1 never should have gifted the coin to a freind to be sold on eBay. IMHO.

 

The same things happen with Girls Scout cookies on eBay. Girl Scout USA has a no selling on the internet policy. But if a non-Girl Scout buys or is gifted the cookies they are not bound by the terms of GSUSA to not sell the cookies on eBay. GSUSA can not stop them from selling them.

[+Hula Bum]

I must be blond, I still don't understand.

 

When you pull up a coin it says "owner", where is the issue, regardless of how it travels, or whose hands it passes through, the "owner" remains the same.

 

Are we to the point where coins must be attached with a contract to be signed and faxed to the "owner"? (yes, ridiculous, my point exactly)

 

I don't know why it matters what the legality of it is, this would be a waste of mine and the court's time to hash out in a "legal" manner. The bigger issue is what is becoming of the geocaching community and that people think this is ok. I am surprised that there is any divide on who the "owner" of a coin is. With that in mind, maybe we, as a community should be looking into this and seeing what is acceptable within this game, perhaps it is changing. If it is, then people should know, cuz I was always under the assumtion that when I released a traveller, be it bug or coin, that I owned it and other cachers were just helping it on it's journey and having fun.

[+pdxmarathonman]

I must be blond, I still don't understand.

 

When you pull up a coin it says "owner", where is the issue, regardless of how it travels, or whose hands it passes through, the "owner" remains the same.

 

Are we to the point where coins must be attached with a contract to be signed and faxed to the "owner"? (yes, ridiculous, my point exactly)

 

I don't know why it matters what the legality of it is, this would be a waste of mine and the court's time to hash out in a "legal" manner. The bigger issue is what is becoming of the geocaching community and that people think this is ok. I am surprised that there is any divide on who the "owner" of a coin is. With that in mind, maybe we, as a community should be looking into this and seeing what is acceptable within this game, perhaps it is changing. If it is, then people should know, cuz I was always under the assumtion that when I released a traveller, be it bug or coin, that I owned it and other cachers were just helping it on it's journey and having fun.

You're incorrectly assuming that placing the word "owner" on a web page makes it so for the actual coin. Morally, sure it is owned by whoever activated the tracking number. I think any clear thinking legally educated person would understand that physical ownership of something left behind in the woods with an expectation that someone they've never met is going to find it, is forfeited. And the only legal opinion related here indicates as much.

 

If I walked into the forest, and in plain view of a police officer walked behind a tree, grabbed a piece of tupperware full of mcjunk and geocoins and walked away with it, I would have absolutely no fear of being arrested for theft. I'd probably be thanked for cleaning up the litter.

[YemonYime]

Are we to the point where coins must be attached with a contract to be signed and faxed to the "owner"? (yes, ridiculous, my point exactly)

 

 

Sad, isn't it?

 

However, you must realize that you've now just spawned a half-dozen ideas for geocoins that will probably be made in the next few months!

 

*fast forward*

Created by Hula Bum and designed by YemonYime, we're proud to announce, the TRACKABLE "Legalese Geocoin Series"!!!

 

Cost is $50 per coin, and all proceeds go to our legal defense fund.

 

These coins will prominently feature a popular legal expression and have absolutely nothing to do with Geocaching other than they are trackable. Here's the planned release order:

 

1. The "Caveat Emptor" geocoin - Polished Silver, no epoxy

2. The "Quid Pro Quo" geocoin - Polished Gold with sparkles

3. The "Habeus Corpus" geocoin - Black Nickel

 

and of course, the Ultra XLE: The "Gag Order" geocoin!

(Only 12 made, and will only be given to jurors at our next courthouse event)

[PCFrog]

I am the owner of my trackables. I paid for the item and letting others be able to log that that have seen my item when they come across it. At no time are my trackables are abandoned or given away to others. At any point I can list on the trackables web page that I would like it returned and will pay for the S/H to the next person who finds it.

 

While there is not license agreement to follow the coin I see it no different than any other software you have installed on your computer. You are allowed the use of that software on your computer but you do not own it. Same thing applies to the trackables. Others can view and move my trackables but they do not have the right to sell, make copies, deface, or alter it anyway.

 

I think it is a matter of intent for the most part. I set my trackables free to do what trackables are to do and that is be tracked from one cache to another. I at no time put a travel bug or geocoin in a cache and said hope you get a good price on ebay.

 

Hula Bum

I don't know why it matters what the legality of it is, this would be a waste of mine and the court's time to hash out in a "legal" manner. The bigger issue is what is becoming of the geocaching community and that people think this is ok. I am surprised that there is any divide on who the "owner" of a coin is. With that in mind, maybe we, as a community should be looking into this and seeing what is acceptable within this game, perhaps it is changing. If it is, then people should know, cuz I was always under the assumtion that when I released a traveller, be it bug or coin, that I owned it and other cachers were just helping it on it's journey and having fun.

 

I’m the owner it is mine until I pass that on.

 

The only time I would consider trackable to be abandoned if the owner no longer has an account on GC.com or a period of time such as 180 days since last activity on GC.com and no response to emails or post made on their pages.

[+fox-and-the-hound]

...The second point is that the coin itself it a work of art. The design is owned solely by Moun10Bike and is protected by copyright law even if it's not registered. If the coin includes a Groundspeak logo, any profit made by selling of a coin could mean GS is party to a share of profit. Selling for profit any item containing a logo under sole ownership of another opens up a legal can of worms. Look at what happens to people selling knock-off items when they get caught. ...

 

Big gray area. The coin's are is actully producted by the person who makes the design for the die. Typically the coin company doesn't claim the copyrigt but some do.

 

That aside unless there is a contract for a cut of each subsiquent sale of the coin the artist only gets their intial pament from when the coins were first made and sold. After that the copyright only protects the artist intersts in that they can make more of the coin or use the design in other ways and sell it while I as a buyer can't use the design and can only appreciate and enjoy the coin itself. I do have some fair use things like taking a photo to sell it on eBay, or perhaps to build a coin database so you can see the coins placeholder. However fair use has changed and I really don't know it's limits.

 

Not exactly a grey area, but 3 areas. Design work falls into one of three categories.

 

First is One Time Use and covers things like photostock images and such. You pay a set rate to produce any item and agree on a price. That item can never be made again without paying again and the photo can not be used anywhere else without paying again.

 

Second is Multiple Use. You pay an elevate rate over One Time Use and buy a limited ability to use the design/art/image as often as you like. You can not resell the design/art/image though. It still belongs to the creator.

 

Third is Work for Hire. You pay a one time fee to buy any and all rights to an design/art/image to use in any way you see fit forever. When you have a coin designed to your specifications it falls into this category as does pretty much all design unless designated as and signed for as One Time or Multiple Use. You'll notice that Moun10Bike's minter isn't trying to sell his coin for profit by making extras.

 

Each of these three variations can be customized for specific needs, but almost all fall into one of these categories. Exact titles and wording have changed in small ways, but I deal with these issues on a daily basis as a professional designer so these issues do come up quite often.

 

 

As for the legally binding contract... when we opened our profiles we all agreed to abide by the rules. By activating that profile you "signed" a legal and binding document. You willing agreed to abide by all the rules set forth. You can't give away property you don't own to be sold and not think you're going to held accountable. As I've heard police say countless times (working for the News) Ignorance is no defense.

 

Yes we agree to the terms, but others have not. As for Moun10bike coins, it says right on the tracking page that the finder of the coin my keep, trade or gift the coin. If it is gifted which is within the right of the holder of the coin to someone they are not bound by the rules placed on the coin or by this website. This is not the same as giving a library book or work computer to someone else. You never had the right to gift it, to begin with.

 

Again I am not condoning the selling or gifting of activated geocoins, that are to be sold. I would not do it, nor have I. I think everyone jsut has to understand they do not have a legal leg to stand on. That does not make it ok or right. Defender1 never should have gifted the coin to a freind to be sold on eBay. IMHO.

 

The same things happen with Girls Scout cookies on eBay. Girl Scout USA has a no selling on the internet policy. But if a non-Girl Scout buys or is gifted the cookies they are not bound by the terms of GSUSA to not sell the cookies on eBay. GSUSA can not stop them from selling them.

 

I was under the impression that it said quite explicityly that he owns all of them and that you may only aquire them through one of those means. I can gift you with the presence of my art to hang in your home without giving you the right to sell it for profit. I am free to call on it and take it back at any time as is a coin owner free to go and remove his coin from a cache and the system at any time.

 

It is not the right of a coin holder to give it to someone who is not a member for sale. I can take an item handed to me in a store and give it to a pawn shop to sell, but that doesn't mean it ever belonged to me. If I'm caught doing it, I don't think the police are going to care who gave it to me. If you don't own it, you can't sell it. It all comes back to ownership and you own your coins that you pay for and activate.

[+Eric K]

Let me play devil's advocate for those who claim them to be abandoned:

 

Do you feel the same way about your caches? You're leaving a box out in the woods, so what gives yo uthe right to still claim ownership of it? What if the next cacher decided to move it, change the hide style, or even take it?

 

Wouldn't you be up in arms about "your" cache?

 

I don't want to derail the topic to talk about caches instead of coins, but food for thought.

 

Legally speaking couldn't each cache be considered littering?

 

(Not trying to cause any trouble, just wondering about these questions in a legal sense)

[PCFrog]

Let me play devil's advocate for those who claim them to be abandoned:

 

Do you feel the same way about your caches? You're leaving a box out in the woods, so what gives yo uthe right to still claim ownership of it? What if the next cacher decided to move it, change the hide style, or even take it?

 

Wouldn't you be up in arms about "your" cache?

 

I don't want to derail the topic to talk about caches instead of coins, but food for thought.

 

Legally speaking couldn't each cache be considered littering?

 

(Not trying to cause any trouble, just wondering about these questions in a legal sense)

 

Not if you got permission for the cache in the 1st place.

[+4 Walls]

This is a very interesting discussion. Maybe someone can find some sort of message forum somewhere that deals with legal issues and post it there.

 

There has to be some kind of website that debates this kind of stuff.

 

I do think the original post wasn't referring to what's morally right or wrong. Just legally what's right or wrong. Morals don't mean much when it comes to legal issues.

 

True I was not referring to morals when I post the original question. Legal and moral are not congruent. I had read on many other posts that certain people considered selling a geocoin online as theft unless they were the "owner". I use quotations because I am referring to the person who authorized and paid for the production of the coins. It is not a statement of fact that I believe they retain ownership indefinitely once they are released.

 

I would be curious to see what kind of a response the Groundspeak and Geocaching.com legal staff have to say on this matter. They certainly should have a clear cut opinion since they actively promote the game/sport/hobby or whatever you wish to call it of geocaching. They also have specific requirements for developement of tackables including coins and TB's.

 

So Groundspeak and Geocaching.com what is your legal opinion?

 

Dan

[+Kealia]

I don't think you're going to get one. From the guidelines:

 

Those choosing to participate in an exchange on this board take full responsibility for any consequences of that exchange. Groundspeak is in no way involved in the sale or trading of items on this board and will not be held responsible or liable in any way for quality issues, fraud or any default of transfer on the part of the buyer or seller.

 

If they got involved in every dispute, it would be ridiculous. Can you imagine the number of emails saying that "so-and-so picked up my coin and hasn't dropped it in two weeks; they stole it and I want to pursue action....".

[+mjp303]

I am the owner of my trackables. I paid for the item and letting others be able to log that that have seen my item when they come across it. At no time are my trackables are abandoned or given away to others. At any point I can list on the trackables web page that I would like it returned and will pay for the S/H to the next person who finds it.

 

It'd be interesting see what happened if Moun10bike asked for his coins back. ...or changed their goal so that it wasn't permissible to hold them. It was pretty fun to chase after yellow and white jeeps, think about the stampede a bunch of circulating Moun10bike coins would cause!

[+4 Walls]

I don't think you're going to get one. From the guidelines:

 

Those choosing to participate in an exchange on this board take full responsibility for any consequences of that exchange. Groundspeak is in no way involved in the sale or trading of items on this board and will not be held responsible or liable in any way for quality issues, fraud or any default of transfer on the part of the buyer or seller.

 

If they got involved in every dispute, it would be ridiculous. Can you imagine the number of emails saying that "so-and-so picked up my coin and hasn't dropped it in two weeks; they stole it and I want to pursue action....".

 

I doubt if they would get involved either, imagine if they came back and said, "even though you might be listed on the sheet as 'owner' once you leave the trackable in a cache and someone else retrieves it you cease to have any legal claim to it"

 

That would be like shooting themselves in the foot.

 

So I doubt if they will take any position on it especially since controversy like this is good for business, I bet the more we talk about it the more the prices for certain coins will go up and the more people who will snag coins from caches and not report them but keep them.

 

Dan

[+Hula Bum]

yime, you are too funny! So who steals it first?

[+budd-rdc]

I am the owner of my trackables. I paid for the item and letting others be able to log that that have seen my item when they come across it. At no time are my trackables are abandoned or given away to others. At any point I can list on the trackables web page that I would like it returned and will pay for the S/H to the next person who finds it.

 

It'd be interesting see what happened if Moun10bike asked for his coins back. ...or changed their goal so that it wasn't permissible to hold them. It was pretty fun to chase after yellow and white jeeps, think about the stampede a bunch of circulating Moun10bike coins would cause!

 

In fact, until the eBay incidents forced him to change the descriptions, he WANTED some of them to travel and some of them to be kept. Now, all of the version 1 say they can be enjoyed, kept, etc., but just NOT SOLD.

 

Of course, dealing with the subsequent stampede is quite a burden to the person dropping one off - I talked about this with a few cachers at a recent event. If you recall, the person who dropped off the first version 1 that ended up on eBay had MAJOR regrets that he didn't keep it or handed off to someone of his choice.

 

Are we to the point where coins must be attached with a contract to be signed and faxed to the "owner"? (yes, ridiculous, my point exactly)

It's inevitable since paperwork seems to be the only way to fight "bad faith" without resorting to violence.

[+Hula Bum]

Hmm, violence works too, maybe if we started a coin vigilante group... hee hee

 

there you go yime, another series of coins for us!

[+WWC-World's Worst Cacher]

Just wondering . . . has Moun10bike weighed in on this?