Churches Category

[+silverquill]

I am posting this from another thread because it is too entertwined and needs a thread of its own.

 

There are several people interested in a church category, myself included.

 

It is a difficult one to structure. Again, it is partly where in the branch the end category goes.

 

Let's take a walk through this:

 

Buildings/Religous Buildings/Christian Churches/ Way too broad.

Under Christian Churches:

/Protestant Denominations

/Roman Catholic

/Orthodox

/Other

 

(Even those categories are not all-inclusive Byzantine, Coptic for instance. And there could be disagreement about where Mormon (LDS), Jehovah Witness, Church of Christ Scientists, etc. should go).

 

I think these would be a good place to start categories. For instance, a Protestant Denomination category could have the specific denomination as a variable. On the other hand, this could be a huge category. My question is, "How feasible is it to sub-divide a category after it is created?" For instance, lets say several of the larger denominations collect enough waypoints to justify a separate category, could we spin off a category for United Methodist, Southern Baptist, etc.?

 

Then, I think there is the possiblity of separate categories, parallel in the taxonomy for other designations, such as Historic Churches older than 100 years, the existing Waychapels category, etc.

 

Any other ideas?

Anyone know about subdividing an existing category if it gets too big?

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Here is a pretty good list.

 

At this point, the variable system in Waymarking has only one level.

You could have a dropdown menu that is really big, though. You might even be able to indent some of the entries to synthesize levels.

[+Razak]

I think that is a fairly good list... if mormon churches and what not seem to have a high number of churches, then maybe you can give them their own category, but honestly I don't think that is necessary. I also wonder if the protestant category may need to get subcategorized at some point just because of the sheer number of denominations of that category (and that lutheran, evangelical, & baptist are fairly large denominations at least here in the states)....

 

Black Dog... the reason for categories instead of variables isn't because varaibles aren't working... it is because there are just far too many christian churches in a lot of areas for this to be viable given that there are no filter methods by variable... you can get 30 churches in a town the size of 10k fairly easily in the U.S.... 10k is not a large city either so we could be looking at millions of christian churches which may be a bit much for a single category to hold, even if you did a keyword search... (Not to mention a bit much for category owners...

[kpernau]

Good Idea! Thanks for supporting

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Razak -

 

Yep, probably so.

 

Search-by-variable is coming someday, TPTB say.

 

To me, the difference between separate variables and separate categories is entirely subjective; there is no logical difference. As I said before every sub-sub-sub-sub difference could be a separate category, or on the other hand, all 10,000 waymarks could be in just one category separated by variables whose names are currently category names. Whatever.

[+tozainamboku]

To me, the difference between separate variables and separate categories is entirely subjective; there is no logical difference. As I said before every sub-sub-sub-sub difference could be a separate category, or on the other hand, all 10,000 waymarks could be in just one category separated by variables whose names are currently category names. Whatever.

 

The difference between separate subcategories and one category with a variable to differentiate different classes in the category is that with separate subcategories you have different variables defined that apply only to one subcategory and not to others. Is there a need for different variables between Catholic churches and Protestant churches? Name of priest vs. name of pastor could be handled by name of clergy, but I suspect there may be some differences in what data you want to collect even between Protestant denominations. My understanding is that variables can be defined at higher levels and inherited - so I suspect you could have a set of church variables, a set of Protestant church variables, and perhaps a set of denomination specific variables for each denomination.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

I mean that there's no objective way to choose a category level. One could have a category for either

Southern Baptist Churches in Kentucky

Southern Baptist Churches

Baptist Churches

Christian Churches

Churches

Buildings of worship

It would be an entirely subjective decision as to which level of these you pick as the 'category' level.

 

Determining what variables you could have and make sense under each level is done after that decision has been made.

 

Are there any examples of inherited variables besides the country and state ones? I couldn't find any.

[+Razak]

I think another value to having categories instead of variables is that it is just easier to browse... I mean yes assuming that they add variable search some day and assuming that you can do it in conjunction with the origin filter so that you only get the search results of a variable within your location.. you can find what you are looking for... (if you are ok with a lot of assumptions on what may or may not happen in the future).

 

However, I do think there is a giant usability issue with this. If Groundspeak wants a broad base of users, they need it as easy to find as possible... and to be honest I think directories are much easier to browse through than a list of "10,000 waymarks" that have various variables that you can only see by viewing the waymarks directly.

 

There are 2 ways this can be easier with categories...

 

1) I just go and look through the categories, find the one I like and "oh look at the pretty butterflies!"

 

or

 

2) I can just switch to the origin search and have everything listed that is near me and "Oh look there are butterflies, and there are bees in my area! Yay!"

 

Your method would be more like this (depending on how they do the variable search)..... Ok go to the category... now do a variable search.... so yes you could do a search on the supercategory but I think people would rather just click on the subcategory than have to go to the category and then do a search on what they are looking for. (I do think they'd have to have variable search in categoires, or at least have a drop down list of all the categories for the sole reason that every category can and does have a dozen or so variables, and that would be hell to sift through in a central search.) I just do think that the average user would rather have directory... (hell I think google should add common refinement search options once you do a general search to narrow down your searches better! which are similar to a category in many ways)

 

PS - there are no bees or butterfly categories in Waymarking yet as far as I am aware, nor do I generally condone such categories... however perhaps I would condone a birds and the bees category

[+silverquill]

I think another value to having categories instead of variables is that it is just easier to browse...

However, I do think there is a giant usability issue with this. If Groundspeak wants a broad base of users, they need it as easy to find as possible... and to be honest I think directories are much easier to browse through than a list of "10,000 waymarks" that have various variables that you can only see by viewing the waymarks directly.

 

Yes, I agree!

 

In general, the category needs to be down the tree. It's just a matter of deciding how far down the tree to have the category. Take a previous example: Buildings/Religious Buildings/Christian Churches/Protestant Churches/Southern Baptist/Southern Baptist Kentucky. What should be the end category?

 

I think several factors come into play: One - the potential number of likely waymarks in any sub-divsion, and Two - the similarity or difference of variables, as someone has already pointed out.

 

In this case, I would say that Southern Baptist is the logically end category - size and similar variables.

 

Protestant - too large and variables too divergent from one denomination to another.

 

Now, here are my two questions:

 

ONE: Who sets this structure? Is someone at Groundspeak overseeing this? Or does it just happen willy-nilly as people create categories? Other than peer review, is there anything preventing someone from creating a broad category such as "Christian Churches?"

 

SECOND: Is it feasible to start a broad category with the possibility of sub-dividing it down the road if it grows too large? For instance, could there be a category "Protestant Churches" to get things started, and then spin off "Southern Baptist" and "United Methodist" down the line if they get large enough? (There would still be a variables problem).

 

Ideas?

[kpernau]

The discusions will be never ends ...

 

My idea is to make only a catergory 'christian churches' and than we would have a look how may people mark churches.

 

Here are so many catergories, that are IMHO to much.

 

'There are 10k...' -> Yes, there are many churches. But I can log every Streetsign, etc...

 

I would like to see how may churches will be logged an then we can talk to split it off.

 

This discusions take to much time and there are only 5 people there discuse about it :-/

[+eigengott]

Under Christian Churches:

/Protestant Denominations

/Roman Catholic

 

At least in Germany there exist many churches which are used both by Protestants and Catholics.

[+silverquill]

 

My idea is to make only a catergory 'christian churches' and than we would have a look how may people mark churches.

 

I would like to see how may churches will be logged an then we can talk to split it off.

 

Well, I think the discussion is important and worthwile. My question, that yet has to be answered is, "Can we split a large category into smaller ones?"

 

I've asked this same question about other category proposals. For instance, someone just asked about a category for post offices. This is another large category that could be started then subdivided by U.S. state and country if a large number of waymarks are submitted for one of them.

 

A similar discussion took place about the museum category. The recommendation was made, and taken, that "museum" as too broad and the proposal was made for the category "History Museums." There is already at least one other museum category that exists, and now the door is open for other museum categories -- science, children's, art, etc. This seems to be a reasonable approach. This is the approach taken to Historic Markers, too, and works quite well.

 

It seems obvious to me that "churches" is too broad for a basic category. It is not just about the large number of potential waymarks, but also because they are too different. Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox churces need different sets of variables. In fact, even with protestant churches the variables are quite different. For instance, for my denomination I would want "District" as a variable, but this would not apply to all other protestant denominations that might have a different structure.

 

So, it seems that the logical basic category for Christian Churches is Denomination (on the Protestant branch). Someone else can suggest a good basic category division for the Roman Catholic churches and Orhodox churches. It would take someone interested in that particular denomination, or other basic category, to get it started.

 

Then we have categories that cut across these divisions, such as a pending proposal for church buildings over 100 years old. I suppose one could have geographic church categories, such as German churches, churches in the state of Kentucky, etc.

 

There is certainly potential for chaos here if categories are thrown out there willy-nilly. I don't think the peer review process is adequate to prevent this. INMHO, Groundspeak needs to take a more active role in setting the taxonomy/structure.

 

I hope this helps the discussion. But, I would still like an answer, if anyone knows, to the question of dividing an existing large category into smaller categories later. Seems to me it could be done if the correct variables were created in the beginning, but then I'm not the programmer.

 

~~silverquill

[+silverquill]

Under Christian Churches:

/Protestant Denominations

/Roman Catholic

 

At least in Germany there exist many churches which are used both by Protestants and Catholics.

 

I think that mayhappen here, too. I know one building may be used by two denominations here. Usually one or the other is the dominant church. I would say if the building was originally a Catholic Church, then it should go under that division. Or, the it could be cross posted in two categories. Another possibility would be to have and additional division of "Mulit-use Church Buildings."

[+eigengott]

Another possibility would be to have and additional division of "Mulit-use Church Buildings."

 

That sounds good.

 

Another issue is with "Other" - does that just mean "other denomination" or does it include "everything else", like churches which are no longer used for service (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_Slow_As_Possible for an example).

[kpernau]

(OFFTOPIC)

 

Pictures taken today while Waymarking - only some impressions

 

http://www.pernau-online.de/bilder/20060425/dom_01.jpg

http://www.pernau-online.de/bilder/20060425/dom_02.jpg

 

Behind the dom

 

http://www.pernau-online.de/bilder/20060425/domgarten_01.jpg

http://www.pernau-online.de/bilder/20060425/domgarten_02.jpg

 

Do not reply to this message - thanks