Better Batteries

3k · April 19, 2006

I don't have a general preferance for batteries, but I just read something interesting while registering a new set of rechargeables that might change my mind. :unsure:

General Purpose & Alkaline Batteries

Alkaline batteries can be safely disposed of with normal household waste. Due to concerns about mercury in the municipal solid waste stream, Duracell has voluntarily eliminated all of the added mercury from its alkaline batteries since 1993 — while maintaining the performance you demand. Our alkaline batteries are composed primarily of common metals — steel, zinc and manganese — and do not pose a health or environmental risk during normal use or disposal.

Some communities offer recycling or collection of alkaline batteries — contact your local government for disposal practices in your area.

Packaging

Duracell packaging may be disposed of in normal household waste or may be recycled where possible. Duracell uses only non-toxic inks in its packaging and the card portion of our package is made from 55% recycled material. The plastic portion is made from 30% recycled plastic.

I guess if you carry an extra pack for "emergencies", it's good to know some companies are at least making an effort to keep these cleaner. :huh:

Also read a tip for making your unit perform better:

Keep battery contact surfaces and battery compartment contacts clean by rubbing them with a clean pencil eraser or a rough cloth each time you replace batteries.

April 19, 2006

"* Since 1993, domestically produced alkaline and carbon zinc batteries contain no added mercury and are essentially mercury-free."

http://www.dec.state.ny.us/website/dshm/redrecy/battery.htm

there are many other sites that give you a breakdown on battery types and their enviormental impact. they tend to be considerably better than my above link but i tend to site gov pages for things like this (facts are only as good as their source).

my point is all alkaline batteries from usa are mercury free.

a side note no one battery is perfect for all applications. some can be tossed away while others need to be recycled. there is nothing wrong with using a battery that needs to be recycled. as long as your responsible.

personal note i can't wait till lithium batteries make their way into AA form. (i mean rechargeable lithium batteries)

April 19, 2006

NIMH recharchables are:

1) Far better for the environment than disposables of any type.

2) Much cheaper on your budget. Only about $10-15 for the charger and 4 reusable batteries.

3) Each charge lasts longer than an alkaline so you change batteries less often.

4) You can plug in the second set of 2 in your car and never have to worry about running down.

I don't know why everyone's not using them. I use them for all my battery needs, GPS, Camera, Flashlights, FRS/GMRS radios. They've paid for themselves many times over. I haven't even felt the need for a car adapter cable for my gps on long trips. That cable alone covers their cost.

11.3k · April 20, 2006

I agree. I have several 15-minute Energizer rechargeable batteries and they work great. I take an inverter along on road trips so I can get freshly-charged batteries in only 15 minutes.

Very convenient, and very cost effective. Environmentally friendly too. :unsure:

24.7k · April 20, 2006

NiMH are better in that less of them are needed to power things over the long run. However they are toxic and do need to be disposed of properly. That means they should not be thrown into the regular trash.

5.2k · April 20, 2006

And for those who live in California...

All batteries are considered hazardous waste in California when they are discarded. This includes all batteries of sizes AAA, AA, C, D, button cell, 9 Volt, and all other batteries, both rechargeable and single use. All batteries must be recycled

From http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/Batteries/

April 20, 2006

And for those who live in California...

All batteries are considered hazardous waste in California when they are discarded. This includes all batteries of sizes AAA, AA, C, D, button cell, 9 Volt, and all other batteries, both rechargeable and single use. All batteries must be recycled

From http://www.ciwmb.ca.gov/WPIE/Batteries/

My new Garmin 60CSX came with a sticker saying that it was considered hazardous in the state of California!

April 20, 2006

what can i say us californians love being pro enviorment.

This topic breaks down to this. there are different batteries for different applications. every battery has its ups and downs. for instance i run NiHM in my GPSr but i use disposable alkaline in my tv remote. like i said eariler not one battery works best in every situation. so use the one most fittin of your needs. if you are concerned about the enviromental effects find your local recycling drop off and make a difference.

5.3k · April 20, 2006

3) Each charge lasts longer than an alkaline so you change batteries less often.

Umm, no. Not true. NIMH batteries have lower available energy than alkalines.

But everything else you said is correct, which is why I recommend them for use in GPSrs and other frequently-used electronics.

NIMH batteries have their downsides, though. For one thing, they lose about 1% of their charge per day they sit unused. So they are not ideal for devices that you only use occasionally, like flashlights you keep around for safety. And they have a much steeper voltage dropoff when they near complete discharge, which means that they appear to go dead "suddenly."

So there are still some legitimate applications where alkalines are a better choice than rechargeables.

April 20, 2006

i beg the battery gods we dont venture into alkaline rechargable batteries :anibad: :huh: :laughing:

4.5k · April 20, 2006

This may not be right but from my own experience, NIMHs work better in high battery drain type devices. I wouldn't consider using anything else in my digital cameras and it sure doesnt take long for them to pay for themselves when used in this type of application. Allthough an alkaline may run a little longer in a GPSr, it still doesn't make any sense to me to buy alkalines for that use. Also, at least for me, it's nice to be able to operate these devices as much as i want and not worry about my batteries going dead since i always have spares charged and ready to go.

I only use alkalines in my regular incandescent and LED flashlights because of the voltage difference. It may not be true but i have it in my mind that the light will be brighter when used with the 1.5 volts (at least with the incandescent)! :laughing:

I don't have a general preferance for batteries, but I just read something interesting while registering a new set of rechargeables that might change my mind.

Question? What is this registering you speak of?

24.7k · April 20, 2006

... It may not be true but i have it in my mind that the light will be brighter when used with the 1.5 volts (at least with the incandescent)! ...

It is true. The exception is a flashlight that has a voltage regulation circuit. You can learn a lot on flashlightreviews.com. :laughing:

April 20, 2006

3) Each charge lasts longer than an alkaline so you change batteries less often.

Umm, no. Not true. NIMH batteries have lower available energy than alkalines.

I'm going to differ with you a little bit:

It depends upon WHICH NiMH batteries you're referring to.

LR06 (AA) batteries of Carbon-zinc construction deliver about 700mAh typically. NiCads (nickel-cadmium) average about 1080mAh (1.08Ah), at a slightly lower voltage. Typical Energizer and Duracell AA batteries (not some of the new digi-pic battery lines and such) typically delivery ~1300-1600mAh when measured in series with a 0.1ohm resistor.

By way of comparison, there are NiMH AA batteries that can deliver 3200 (or more) mAh of current @ 1.2v. So the equiv is: ~20% voltage differential, right? About ~2500mAh equiv @ 1.5v. Still better than the alki AAs.

Cheap junk NiMH deliver only about 850mAh - so that's probably what you're basing your perspective on.

Even the Duracell NiMH batteries are around, what, 2300-2400mAh?

---------

I run 1.2v 3200mAh NiMH or 3600mAh Lithium Polymer batteries for my GPSs. They have the added advantage of running cooler and thereby further extending battery life.

[edited to add]:

>> And they have a much steeper voltage dropoff when they near complete discharge, which means that they appear to go dead "suddenly."

Yeah, but that can actually be an extremely good thing. I prefer to have a flashlight that delivers solid light throughout the discharge cycle. Nothing worse than that sinking feeling that the batteries are getting weak and the light is so marginally as to be worthless. I end-up junking batteries only 3/4 discharged in that application, whereas the NiMH or Li* batteries will ramp down with juuust enough time for me to sneak another set of batteries into 'em. But, hey, that's just personal preference...

* Data obtained from manufacturer tech/oem pdfs as mentioned. Tradenames used without permission here...

Edited April 20, 2006 by Adrenalynn

April 20, 2006

Not entirely sure how an LED will be brighter @ 1.2v than @ 1.5v. The LED itself is being fed with the same voltage regardless (regulated). True, though, for incandescents.

5.3k · April 20, 2006

By way of comparison, there are NiMH AA batteries that can deliver 3200 (or more) mAh of current.

Commercially available? I'd love to see a link to some. Biggest I have ever seen are 2500 mAh.

Typical Energizer and Duracell AA batteries (not some of the new digi-pic battery lines and such) typically delivery ~1300-1600mAh when measured in series with a 0.1ohm resistor.

A 0.1-ohm resistor at 1.5V gives a current of 15 A, for a power of 23 W! In the absence of internal resistance, that is. You're basically shorting the battery out. The performance there will be dominated by the internal resistance of the battery, which means that almost all of the energy in the battery will go to heating itself.

That is not a valid measurement for GPS units, which typically draw about 300 mA. The capacity of a standard Duracell AA alkaline at that more normal current draw is more like 2850 mAh. Like I said, more energy than a NiMH battery.

The new digi-pic batteries (and NiMH batteries) are better for high-drain devices because they have lower internal resistance, but even they would perform relatively poorly in extreme conditions such as the short-circuit you have described.

April 20, 2006

By way of comparison, there are NiMH AA batteries that can deliver 3200 (or more) mAh of current.

Commercially available? I'd love to see a link to some. Biggest I have ever seen are 2500 mAh.

Typical Energizer and Duracell AA batteries (not some of the new digi-pic battery lines and such) typically delivery ~1300-1600mAh when measured in series with a 0.1ohm resistor.

A 0.1-ohm resistor at 1.5V gives a current of 15 A, for a power of 23 W! In the absence of internal resistance, that is. You're basically shorting the battery out. The performance there will be dominated by the internal resistance of the battery, which means that almost all of the energy in the battery will go to heating itself.

That is not a valid measurement for GPS units, which typically draw about 300 mA. The capacity of a standard Duracell AA alkaline at that more normal current draw is more like 2850 mAh. Like I said, more energy than a NiMH battery.

The new digi-pic batteries (and NiMH batteries) are better for high-drain devices because they have lower internal resistance, but even they would perform relatively poorly in extreme conditions such as the short-circuit you have described.

Numbers, schmumbers...

All I know is:

I get about 20 pics tops in my digital camera with alkalines. With NiMH, I get so many I haven't felt the need to count.

In my GPS, I can drive all the way from LA to New Mexico on one charge. Alkalines die a long slow death about half way there.

I have several sets. Some are 1700mah, and even those do a fine job in both applications. I have only recently begun using them in my frs/gmrs radios, so I can't tell you about that.

Also, just this evening I saw a charger and 2x 2000mah AA set for only $7.99!

BTW: avoid the "dumb" chargers that use a timer to know when to shut off. Get a "smart" charger that monitors the battery's charge state and switches to trickle when it is nearly full.

Also, some chargers manage the 2 sets of 2 batteries independently. This is nice when you've got 2 dead ones and 2 half charged ones. So not all chargers are created equal.

Edited April 20, 2006 by headybrew

April 20, 2006

I'll respond further later... PowerEx has 2500 and a new 2750mAh AA (NiMH) was just announced - I'll have to go back and look at the press release and make sure it was them... (I do design on video monitoring devices that run for long periods independantly - so I get lots of battery junkmail)

Ansman, Accupower, UltraLast have 2600's readily available to the consumer.

I believe the LiPolys are Megatech, but they weren't AA. I "adaptered" the battery pack. They're 3680mAh.

The Li's in AA form are 2700mAh.

Aha. Here it is. Sanyo has a 2700mAh available today, NiMH - check 'em out at http://www.batteriesamerica.com/newpage3.htm - $3.50 each. That's pretty consumer-ready.

Anyway - quick examples. I need to get up early. I'll answer your points when I have a chance tomorrow.

Thanks!

April 20, 2006

I get about 20 pics tops in my digital camera with alkalines. With NiMH, I get so many I haven't felt the need to count.

You have a camera that was designed to use Lithium or NiMH batteries only, not alkalines.

A lot of people I have met complain about this, and then I flip their camera over and show them where it says right next to the battery door: "2 x AA : Li or NiMH ONLY" Some camera are designed to use alkalines, and they will work fine with them.

You were giving advice about which batteries to use in a gps based on your experience with your camera? :laughing:

PS. If you really want long life in a high-power device like a digicam, try a set of lithium cells. They even make rechargeable ones. I just cleared off close to 400 pics from my 5 megapixel cam, most of them with a flash, all on the same set of batteries. :anibad:

2.5k · April 20, 2006

After getting an 8MP camera, and putting the standard Alkaline batteries in it, I almost thought it was defective. It would just power off when I was using it. Then I got some rechargeables, at first 4 of them 2500mAh and couldn't believe how long they would run. I stuck some in the GPS, and went caching all afternoon, running the backlight and still it did not quit, I think I even used it periodically for the rest of the week on the same set. I've gotten 4 more rechargeable batteries, and am thinking about getting some more for my FRS radios.

3k · April 20, 2006

This may not be right but from my own experience, NIMHs work better in high battery drain type devices. I wouldn't consider using anything else in my digital cameras and it sure doesnt take long for them to pay for themselves when used in this type of application. Allthough an alkaline may run a little longer in a GPSr, it still doesn't make any sense to me to buy alkalines for that use. Also, at least for me, it's nice to be able to operate these devices as much as i want and not worry about my batteries going dead since i always have spares charged and ready to go.

I only use alkalines in my regular incandescent and LED flashlights because of the voltage difference. It may not be true but i have it in my mind that the light will be brighter when used with the 1.5 volts (at least with the incandescent)!

I don't have a general preferance for batteries, but I just read something interesting while registering a new set of rechargeables that might change my mind.

Question? What is this registering you speak of?

Well I was trying to register my purchase to activate my warranty on the rechargeables Nihms I bought. I found this info on the site in the process. Never did find the place for the registration. I was mostly interested to see that Mercury was out and that recycled materials and non-metalic inks were in which is great for everyone. I love, love, love having my rechargeables, but always carry a backup set of alkalines for use in the GPSr, flashlight, or radio.

April 20, 2006

You have a camera that was designed to use Lithium or NiMH batteries only, not alkalines.

That's not the point. The NiMH's will last longer in most high load devices. My camera literature states that alkalines are OK. But experience indicates their life cycle sucks in it.

You were giving advice about which batteries to use in a gps based on your experience with your camera?

No. You didn't read the post very thoroughly.

PS. If you really want long life in a high-power device like a digicam, try a set of lithium cells. They even make rechargeable ones. I just cleared off close to 400 pics from my 5 megapixel cam, most of them with a flash, all on the same set of batteries.

I did try a set. They lasted quite a while. I didn't count. But then they died and the price of a replacement is almost as much as the NiMH's, which cost NOTHING to recharge.

I haven't seen lithium rechargables yet, but when I do, I may try them. For now, I'm extremly happy with my NiMH rechargables.

April 20, 2006

After getting an 8MP camera, and putting the standard Alkaline batteries in it, I almost thought it was defective. It would just power off when I was using it. Then I got some rechargeables, at first 4 of them 2500mAh and couldn't believe how long they would run. I stuck some in the GPS, and went caching all afternoon, running the backlight and still it did not quit, I think I even used it periodically for the rest of the week on the same set. I've gotten 4 more rechargeable batteries, and am thinking about getting some more for my FRS radios.

I've recently begun using them in my FRS's, and also just bought a set of FRS/GMRS that comes with an NiMH pack (and can take the AA's as well).

I haven't experimented enough to have an opinion yet, but I would say that the way alkalines die gradually would be a dis-advantage in a radio transmitter. As the power slowly declines, your transmission range would fall off. I'd rather get the full power untill it dies more abruptly.

(I'm sure someone will dispute this very soon... Bring on the Ohm's Law algebra!)

April 21, 2006

sry to be soo off topic

but if someone does run across lithium rechargable in AA form i would really be interested.

April 21, 2006

sry to be soo off topic

but if someone does run across lithium rechargable in AA form i would really be interested.

You generally need to modify the cell or the holder. Li-Ion aren't available in standard sizes. Their voltage on the low-end tends towards 3.7v (which will feed the regulator in most 3v devices fine, incidentally. YMMV, check the specs on the regulator) - and charging them in a non-Li-Ion device will cause them to ignite.

Personally, I just cast an adapter..

1.4k · April 21, 2006

sry to be soo off topic

but if someone does run across lithium rechargable in AA form i would really be interested.

Not sure if this was covered in the thread, but lithium type batteries obtain their higher volumetric enegy density from having higher voltage difference per cell (3-3.6V per cell vs. 1.2V per cell for NiMH). When a NiMH cell is fully charged, it reads between 1.4-1.45V per cell, making its starting voltage equivalent to an alkaline, so there's rarely a need to modify the electronics inside a device to accept both NiMH and alkaline.

For digital cameras, they are often designed to accept 4 alkalines/NiMHs in a series, and two Lithiums (or a pair of two parallel Lithiums) in a series. For consumer GPSr, I'm not sure if manufacturers want to use up extra room to add circuitry to accept all three types, when a much more pragmatic solution (user choice) exists.

Besides, Lithium batteries are more likely to catch on fire if not charged properly. I'm speculating that consumer grade AA size Li rechargeables won't be in the market anytime soon.

(Don't forget that Hybrid vehicles use NiMH batteries, not Lead-Acid, Li-Ion/polymer, or alkalines. :rolleyes: )

April 21, 2006

sry to be soo off topic

but if someone does run across lithium rechargable in AA form i would really be interested.

Not sure if this was covered in the thread, but lithium type batteries obtain their higher volumetric enegy density from having higher voltage difference per cell (3-3.6V per cell vs. 1.2V per cell for NiMH). When a NiMH cell is fully charged, it reads between 1.4-1.45V per cell, making its starting voltage equivalent to an alkaline, so there's rarely a need to modify the electronics inside a device to accept both NiMH and alkaline.

For digital cameras, they are often designed to accept 4 alkalines/NiMHs in a series, and two Lithiums (or a pair of two parallel Lithiums) in a series. For consumer GPSr, I'm not sure if manufacturers want to use up extra room to add circuitry to accept all three types, when a much more pragmatic solution (user choice) exists.

Besides, Lithium batteries are more likely to catch on fire if not charged properly. I'm speculating that consumer grade AA size Li rechargeables won't be in the market anytime soon.

(Don't forget that Hybrid vehicles use NiMH batteries, not Lead-Acid, Li-Ion/polymer, or alkalines. )

which is why i was soo curious when there was a post above which lead to believe that they might have finally made it to the market. i was fairly sure it was a mistake but curiousity killed the cat.

24.7k · April 21, 2006

....I haven't seen lithium rechargables yet, but when I do, I may try them. For now, I'm extremly happy with my NiMH rechargables.

My money is that the first viable Lithiom Ion rechargable will be the CR123 or whatever it is they use in teh surfire flashlights.

April 21, 2006

....I haven't seen lithium rechargables yet, but when I do, I may try them. For now, I'm extremly happy with my NiMH rechargables.

My money is that the first viable Lithiom Ion rechargable will be the CR123 or whatever it is they use in teh surfire flashlights.

http://www.greenbatteries.com/crlireba2.html

4.5k · April 21, 2006

Just a quick note about Lithium AAs. I picked up a set of the Eveready e2 batteries and put them in the GPSr. There is no doubt at all that these out performed any other batteries i had ever tried in it. I kept wondering when the things were going to discharge as my battery indicator kept showing full. The downside was that when they finally did die, it was without any warning at all. I mean, meter was still showing full just minutes before and i never got a "batteries low" warning before it went dead!

April 21, 2006

....I haven't seen lithium rechargables yet, but when I do, I may try them. For now, I'm extremly happy with my NiMH rechargables.

My money is that the first viable Lithiom Ion rechargable will be the CR123 or whatever it is they use in teh surfire flashlights.

http://www.greenbatteries.com/crlireba2.html

Go adrenalynn,

5.7k · April 21, 2006

I get about 20 pics tops in my digital camera with alkalines. With NiMH, I get so many I haven't felt the need to count.

You have a camera that was designed to use Lithium or NiMH batteries only, not alkalines.

A lot of people I have met complain about this, and then I flip their camera over and show them where it says right next to the battery door: "2 x AA : Li or NiMH ONLY" Some camera are designed to use alkalines, and they will work fine with them.

You were giving advice about which batteries to use in a gps based on your experience with your camera?

PS. If you really want long life in a high-power device like a digicam, try a set of lithium cells. They even make rechargeable ones. I just cleared off close to 400 pics from my 5 megapixel cam, most of them with a flash, all on the same set of batteries.

Say, I've been trying to find rechargable lithium AA's for quite some time. Where do you get yours?

April 21, 2006

Say, I've been trying to find rechargable lithium AA's for quite some time. Where do you get yours?

I haven't actually bought any. Normally I use the rechargable pack that came with my camera, because it charges in the camera when it's on the camera dock. I just recently used a set of lithium AAs because the battery pack was dead and I was on my way to a wedding so I grabbed some lithium AAs at the gas station. none of my other toys take AAs

I used to do a lot of work for two major battery companies. At one of their plants, in their "retail lab" (which is a futuristic mock-up store for doing marketing research) I saw a prototype charger and batteries in packaging and everything. I actually stocked a display that I built with them. The guy said they weren't on the market yet so I souldn't have a set <_< . When I posted earlier I just assumed they were on the market by now, because this was probably 9 months ago.

24.7k · April 22, 2006

....I haven't seen lithium rechargables yet, but when I do, I may try them. For now, I'm extremly happy with my NiMH rechargables.

My money is that the first viable Lithiom Ion rechargable will be the CR123 or whatever it is they use in teh surfire flashlights.

http://www.greenbatteries.com/crlireba2.html

Well hell...last time I looked they had some goofy combo of two NiMH's that you had to use in series to make a CR123.

Cool. Problem solved.

April 22, 2006

Cool. Problem solved.

Yuppers! I use those in my TacLights and they work well. I can specifically recommend those guys. Probably not the cheapest, but they were the first I ordered. They work, so I just keep buyin' 'em. <_<

April 25, 2006

I agree. I have several 15-minute Energizer rechargeable batteries and they work great. I take an inverter along on road trips so I can get freshly-charged batteries in only 15 minutes.

Very convenient, and very cost effective. Environmentally friendly too.

Miragee, you convinced me on the 15 min charger... my 15 minute charger takes more than 15 minutes...my other charger takes 10+ hours... but I can live with the 15 minute charger :mad: I also have an inverter (400 wt) that I can use in auto for recharging enroute or in an emerg...thanks

Better Batteries

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