Geocaching Electrical Safety

[+Lil Devil]

I will agree that if the device is "wired correctly in the first place" the danger of accidental electrocution is minimized ... but not eliminated. Insulation and wiring connectors deteriorate and are damaged over time.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make a few months ago when I posted this. Sadly it didn't get a lot of attention as I've since found (and got archived) two more caches just like the ones mentioned.

 

I would wholeheartedly support a ban on all caches on or in electrical equipment.

[+DocDiTTo]

 

I would wholeheartedly support a ban on all caches on or in electrical equipment.

 

And the Walmart parking lot lamp skirt crowd would be up in arms. There'd be mutiny in the streets. Violent uprisings. Herds of cachers moving to Terracaching or Navicaching. Premium membership would drop, Jeremy would lose his shirt, Keystone's hampster would be crying, it would be a sad, sad day in geo-land. Or maybe not. I still think the inherrent danger from the majority of electrical boxes located within reach of every toddler in the country is so extremely minimal that it's not worth worrying about. I drive fast. I go deep into caves. I rappell down cliffs. The big green humming box in my front yard is not something I'm afraid of. If it scares you, or anyone else reading this thread, then stay away from it. Don't touch it. But don't force your fears on me. If I die from an electrical shock, by all means drop by my funeral and spraypaint a big "I TOLD YOU SO" on my casket. Until then, just let me cache in peace.

[+Confucius' Cat]

It seems that a large part of our society is selling fear

 

Absolutely!

 

And this makes it awful hard to filter out the real hazards from the hype.

 

A little common sense (a rare commodity today) goes a long way toward giving oneself the courage to roll out of bed (carefully!) every morning.

 

OTOH, it is equally inaccurate to assume everyone is pitching an agenda. Sometimes a smile is just a smile. Sometimes a warning is just a warning, intended only to alert another of a danger to which they might not be privy.

 

Obviously not all light poles are defective and lifting their skirts is not a shock hazard by design. But there are a LOT of defective and damaged poles "out there" so caution is in order.

 

The general point is that we need to be careful in all things, but electricity is MUCH more unforgiving than many other hazards and therefore warrants a little more care and respect.

[+edscott]

Interesting that there are rules against having caches close to RR tracks where the train can usually be heard for some distance and may only be there once a day..... or even less. ... But nothing specific about live electrical devices that present a silent hazard 24/7.

 

As has been brought up before, the reason that RR tracks are restricted is an issue of private property and right of way, not of safety. .....

 

Well the guideline reads "Caches hidden in close proximity to active railroad tracks. In general we use a distance of 150 ft but your local area’s trespassing laws may be different." Use of the word "Active" excludes "inactive" so land ownership is not the issue.. The distance of "150 feet" seems to have nothing to do with property or right of way width, but a set buffer zone. These facts seem to point more to safety concerns than ownership concerns. I realize the word trespassing is used but trespassing is trespassing whether or not the tracks are active and at the edge of the Company's right of way, not a prescribed distance from the tracks.

 

..and is it not tresspassing .. as well as dangerous... when we poke around electrical equipment owned by the local power company? ..and really stupid to teach our kids, and big kids, that that is OK when searching for a cache... or a ball.. or a kite..

[+1stimestar]

I did a google search for "dog booties, electrical shock" and I came up with over a million hits. Guess it isn't so far fetched or a rare occurance.

 

From the Boston Globe.

 

More than fashionable: Owners hunt dog booties

Footwear combats electrical shock

By Donovan Slack, Globe Correspondent, 3/6/2004

 

Canine couture may never have been so hot in Boston. For decades, finicky dog owners have equipped their prized pooches with winter boots to prevent them from tracking mud indoors and lessen paw irritation from salt and snow. Often, they have color-coordinated them with doggie sweaters and hats of the season.

 

But following the electrocution of a dog last month in Charlestown and the electric shock injury of another in Chinatown this week, rubber booties for dogs are becoming more than luxuries or fashion statements. Some dog owners are thinking of them as life-or-death commodities.

 

The sudden alarm over electrical "hot spots" lurking in city streets has sent dog owners scurrying to pet stores like Petco in Brighton, where Paw-Tectors, one brand of rubberized boots, have been flying off the shelf.

 

"We've had quite a few customers coming in and asking about them, saying they were scared to walk their dogs," said Angela Mariani, a manager at Petco, as she flipped through the final half-dozen pairs on the shelf. "As you can see, we're really low. They're just selling so fast."

 

Dog owners are also buying booties online, as well as at animal hospitals and groomers, said retailers and animal care professionals. There is a seemingly endless variety to choose from: with materials of nylon, polyester, fleece, and leather and colors of basic black, safety orange, and hunter green. Most are fastened with colorful velcro straps, and some require duct tape.

 

But not all offer protection from electric currents. Specialists said booties with rubber soles offer the best protection. Fabrics also can be effective if they are treated with waterproofing chemicals.

 

But anything that absorbs water can conduct current, said Walter H.G. Lewin, a physics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "With shoes or boots there is no risk, unless the shoes are soaking wet," he said.

 

The small, skid-proof patch popular on many dog booties may not protect the dog if the rest of the boot can absorb water, he said.

 

Four dogs in as many months suffered jolts of electricity while walking on Boston streets. One was killed. A woman in New York City died in January after she came in contact with the electrified lid of a service box. Combined, these incidents have sparked an outcry in Boston over live wires underground.

 

NStar began checking its 30,000 manholes in the city for electrical charges this week. So far, crews have found five hot spots out of the 644 checked, NStar officials said. Four were related to city-owned equipment and one was on private land, spokeswoman Christina McKenna said. Another hot spot found on one NStar-owned manhole in Dorchester is still under investigation. The citywide sweep is scheduled to be complete in 90 days.

"We want to make sure that people feel safe on the streets of Boston," McKenna said.

 

Councilor at Large Maura Hennigan plans to hold a hearing Monday to investigate the problem and has asked representatives of NStar and the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority to testify. Hennigan said she wants to hold the city, utility companies, and others accountable for their electrical equipment. She said she hasn't purchased any booties for her dogs, but said they might be a short-term answer for dog owners.

 

Penny Cherubino never walks her dog without booties, but the Back Bay resident isn't taking any chances these days, choosing to carry her pet over anything that might conduct electricity, including wet sidewalks. She only lets him walk on grassy areas.

 

Cherubino, who founded Bostondogs, an Internet group for dog owners in the city, says the danger of electrical shock on city streets is nothing new, although people are paying more attention since the recent electric shock incidents. She lists a half-dozen dog-shocking incidents during the past decade, many on Commonwealth Avenue Mall.

 

"Twelve years ago, when I came to the city, one of the first things I was told is never let your dog walk on metal in the city," she said. "It's always been a fact of life here that dogs can receive shocks."

Edited April 22, 2006 by 1stimestar

[+edscott]

I did a google search for "dog booties, electrical shock" and I came up with over a million hits. Guess it isn't so far fetched or a rare occurance.

 

From the Boston Globe.

 

More than fashionable: Owners hunt dog booties

Footwear combats electrical shock

By Donovan Slack, Globe Correspondent, 3/6/2004

 

Canine couture may never have been so hot in Boston. For decades, finicky dog owners have equipped their prized pooches with winter boots to prevent them from tracking mud indoors and lessen paw irritation from salt and snow. Often, they have color-coordinated them with doggie sweaters and hats of the season.

 

But following the electrocution of a dog last month in Charlestown and the electric shock injury of another in Chinatown this week, rubber booties for dogs are becoming more than luxuries or fashion statements. Some dog owners are thinking of them as life-or-death commodities.

 

The sudden alarm over electrical "hot spots" lurking in city streets has sent dog owners scurrying to pet stores like Petco in Brighton, where Paw-Tectors, one brand of rubberized boots, have been flying off the shelf.

 

"We've had quite a few customers coming in and asking about them, saying they were scared to walk their dogs," said Angela Mariani, a manager at Petco, as she flipped through the final half-dozen pairs on the shelf. "As you can see, we're really low. They're just selling so fast."

 

Dog owners are also buying booties online, as well as at animal hospitals and groomers, said retailers and animal care professionals. There is a seemingly endless variety to choose from: with materials of nylon, polyester, fleece, and leather and colors of basic black, safety orange, and hunter green. Most are fastened with colorful velcro straps, and some require duct tape.

 

But not all offer protection from electric currents. Specialists said booties with rubber soles offer the best protection. Fabrics also can be effective if they are treated with waterproofing chemicals.

 

But anything that absorbs water can conduct current, said Walter H.G. Lewin, a physics professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. "With shoes or boots there is no risk, unless the shoes are soaking wet," he said.

 

The small, skid-proof patch popular on many dog booties may not protect the dog if the rest of the boot can absorb water, he said.

 

Four dogs in as many months suffered jolts of electricity while walking on Boston streets. One was killed. A woman in New York City died in January after she came in contact with the electrified lid of a service box. Combined, these incidents have sparked an outcry in Boston over live wires underground.

 

NStar began checking its 30,000 manholes in the city for electrical charges this week. So far, crews have found five hot spots out of the 644 checked, NStar officials said. Four were related to city-owned equipment and one was on private land, spokeswoman Christina McKenna said. Another hot spot found on one NStar-owned manhole in Dorchester is still under investigation. The citywide sweep is scheduled to be complete in 90 days.

"We want to make sure that people feel safe on the streets of Boston," McKenna said.

 

Councilor at Large Maura Hennigan plans to hold a hearing Monday to investigate the problem and has asked representatives of NStar and the Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority to testify. Hennigan said she wants to hold the city, utility companies, and others accountable for their electrical equipment. She said she hasn't purchased any booties for her dogs, but said they might be a short-term answer for dog owners.

 

Penny Cherubino never walks her dog without booties, but the Back Bay resident isn't taking any chances these days, choosing to carry her pet over anything that might conduct electricity, including wet sidewalks. She only lets him walk on grassy areas.

 

Cherubino, who founded Bostondogs, an Internet group for dog owners in the city, says the danger of electrical shock on city streets is nothing new, although people are paying more attention since the recent electric shock incidents. She lists a half-dozen dog-shocking incidents during the past decade, many on Commonwealth Avenue Mall.

 

"Twelve years ago, when I came to the city, one of the first things I was told is never let your dog walk on metal in the city," she said. "It's always been a fact of life here that dogs can receive shocks."

 

Never never never pee on a lamp post, especially one with a cache.

[+Confucius' Cat]

I've pertineer peed on the cache b4, does that count?

[+Johnnygeo]

Please visit www.johnnygeo-blog.blogspot.com for more information on Geocaching Electrical Safety.

Newer articles include, Geocaching Electrical Safety 2, Lightning Safety and What's Arc Flash?

 

Thanks,

 

Johnnygeo

Edited October 31, 2006 by Johnnygeo

[+TheAlabamaRambler]

Much ado about nothing.

 

We live in a dangerous world.

 

Yes, we should mitigate risk, yes we should educate about risk, but no we can't mandate safety or risk-avoidance.

 

We still can't even get folks to wear seat belts when not doing so is a well-known, high probability, almost always damaging risk.

 

If you drive your car to the cache site you are participating in a FAR more dangerous act than touching an electrical box!

 

Should Groundspeak ban driving while geocaching? That would save proveably save lives and reduce injuries.

 

And what about those limbs and vines and such that might cause me to fall on the way to a cache? Prohibit caches where fall potential is high? Way more cachers get hurt n falls than when touching electrical boxes! We need a guideline here! Come on, Groundspeak, protect me from myself!

 

Under this thread's logic they would have to.

 

Ed

[+Johnnygeo]

mmm-humm

[+Johnnygeo]

Why add to risk?

Like the comment before mine said, driving a vehicle to a cache has risk... Agreed.

 

Why add something else into the puzzle that may add loss?

Because a lot of people say, "It'll never happen to me".

I've had to do investigations on those people after insulation failed on a piece of equipment or they had created their own hazard by opening up a cover.(tampering)

 

Risk is involved in everything we do. How far do you want to push it is your own choice.

 

I'll have my kids find caches in other creative spots.

 

It's All About Awareness

[+Okiebryan]

How far do you want to push it is your own choice.

 

I'll have my kids find caches in other creative spots.

 

 

Great idea! Just don't mess with my hides and finds in order to protect me from me. That is my job, thank you very much. Don't change the rules. This is a slippery slope that we don't want to go down.

[+Johnnygeo]

Getting back on topic...

 

link

 

There's a lot of really sad stories out there...

[+SniperChicken]

okay guys,back to the the fundamentals of geocaching...hide a cache in a location that has something to offer the seeker,be it a spectacular view,a great hike you want to others to experience,a bit of a history lesson or maybe just a made up journey that sparks the imagination.Something fun.Like someone posted before,what is the fun or excitement about electrical boxes? I love a new twist to the game as much as anyone else,but they are so many other things to copy or imitate .

[mrmaintenance]

I saw it asked but never answered here, so I will answer. The electrical equipment IS private property. Placing anything in, on, or around the equipment IS trespassing. The equipment is owned by the utility and is therefore private property. Unless you get eplicit written permission from the said company, you ARE trespassing. That also means that you are in violation of the geocaching.com rule of placing caches on private property. I am 99.999% sure you won't get written permission from the said utility company. That would be the same as you climbing the pole outside your house (or opening the box) to fix the wires because your house doesn't have electricity. This is not only dangerous, but is illegal because you have now trespassed.

[+cimawr]

Getting back on topic...

 

link

 

There's a lot of really sad stories out there...

 

There was a similar case in Baltimore this year. A middle-school girl at a church-sponsored softball game in a city park happened to touch two fences at the same time, and was fatally shocked due to current from un-maintained underground wiring.

 

Similarly, at least one dog was killed by walking over a metal sidewalk plate in the city which conducted ground current from, IIRC, wires nearby that had not been properly closed off when a building had been taken down. The same thing happened in NYC about two years ago, and in that case the dog's OWNER was killed as well when she tried to help him.

[+Okiebryan]

I saw it asked but never answered here, so I will answer. The electrical equipment IS private property. Placing anything in, on, or around the equipment IS trespassing. The equipment is owned by the utility and is therefore private property. Unless you get eplicit written permission from the said company, you ARE trespassing. That also means that you are in violation of the geocaching.com rule of placing caches on private property. I am 99.999% sure you won't get written permission from the said utility company. That would be the same as you climbing the pole outside your house (or opening the box) to fix the wires because your house doesn't have electricity. This is not only dangerous, but is illegal because you have now trespassed.

 

I have a cache in obsolete electrical equipment. It is a meter pole with no meter, and the wires at the top are CUT OFF. Below the EMPTY meter base is an EMPTY service disconnect. The cache is in there. I have the permission of the landowner, and the location is an interesting place. The draw to the place is not the "electrical equipment", rather the obsolete box made a good hiding place. If you are not savvy to know that this is abandoned equipment, then DON'T LOOK IN THERE. log a DNF and carry on woth your life. Others enjoy this hiding place.

 

There is nothing wrong with this cache. It is in no way dangerous. Quit trying to impose blanket bans on others.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Okiebryan

[mrmaintenance]

 

Quit trying to impose blanket bans on others.

 

I am not trying to impose blanket bans on anyone. If you don't believe my previous post, then call your utitliy company and ask. I am sorry that you will not like what they have to say, but that is the way it is. Also, the land/building owner owns the wires and equipment (except for the meter) after the in-line fuzes to the structure. We are talking about the power boxes and poles that are before those.

[+Renegade Knight]

I saw it asked but never answered here, so I will answer. The electrical equipment IS private property. Placing anything in, on, or around the equipment IS trespassing. The equipment is owned by the utility and is therefore private property. Unless you get eplicit written permission from the said company, you ARE trespassing. That also means that you are in violation of the geocaching.com rule of placing caches on private property. I am 99.999% sure you won't get written permission from the said utility company. That would be the same as you climbing the pole outside your house (or opening the box) to fix the wires because your house doesn't have electricity. This is not only dangerous, but is illegal because you have now trespassed.

Don't overplay your hand.

Those boxes, wires, poles, etc. are very often on Public Propety in the Public Right of Way. The pole, box, wires, and other equipment itself is private, and while I"m not going to look it up I've venture it's also protected by law. For example you shouldn't place your garage sale sign on a phone pole. Everyone does anyway.

 

The larger issue is fairly simple. We have people saying "This equipment is safe enough to place in the public right of way and in areas of public access" and we have those same people saying, "this equipment is too dangerouse to be near so stay away". The truth is in the middle. I agree that a cache on some equipment is a bad thing. But if that transformer box in my yard zaps my kids who are playing on it (and it's reasonable to assume that kids will do exactly that) I'm not going to be a happy camper.

 

If electrical equipment is a bad thing in the park, it's time to rethink what kind of shoddy practies and slipshod equipment is being installed in our parks.

[+Confucius' Cat]

If electrical equipment is a bad thing in the park, it's time to rethink what kind of shoddy practies and slipshod equipment is being installed in our parks.

The problem is that you might not know there is a problem until too late.

 

Fortunately, most low voltage (120v or less) shocks are NOT fatal. Unfortunately, in the case of transformer boxes, there is both high (7200 or 13.2kv) and low voltage in the box. Fortunately, most high voltage leakage is pretty serious and accompianied with smoke and fire which should be a "dead giveaway" (pun intentional) that there is a problem.

 

Problems do not always result from "shoddy practies and slipshod equipment ". As a poet once wrote, "something there is that does not like a wall". Nature kinda likes to take things back, therefore man-made things, nay ALL THINGS, deteriorate- "he not busy being born is busy dying" as an old rock song goes.

 

From the moment a piece of equipment is installed, it begins to fail. proper periodic maintenance and diligent attention can prevent or at least slow the course of the failure- but where have you ever seen THAT done?

 

LEAVE THE ************ ELECTRICAL BOXES ALONE

 

If you just HAVE to place a cache that looks like one, be sure it is VERY OBVIOUS that it is the cache and it is in a place where it cannot be confused with LIVE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT!

[Clan Riffster]

[snarky]Couldn't we ban them for being lame, rather than for being on electrical equipment?[/snarky]

 

Seriously though, do we really need more rules guidelines telling folks to think before they cache? I cache for the simple pleasure of enjoying Nature, and on occasion, to hunt for something cleverly hidden by someone else. What could possibly be considered clever about slapping a hide-a-key on an electrical box? I can usually sort these by reading the cache page, but when I arrive and my Garmin points to one of those butt ugly metal behemoths, I just hit the delete button and move on.

 

Guardrail and lamp post skirt hides are equally as lame, and also present certain inherent dangers, however slight. Just move on. There are other caches out there waiting for you. Every time you log a find, you are granting that hide a degree of validity. If it's a stinker, find one that's not.

[+Johnnygeo]

Some great points!!!

[+Johnnygeo]

In response to:"I have a cache in obsolete electrical equipment. It is a meter pole with no meter, and the wires at the top are CUT OFF. Below the EMPTY meter base is an EMPTY service disconnect. The cache is in there. I have the permission of the landowner, and the location is an interesting place. The draw to the place is not the "electrical equipment", rather the obsolete box made a good hiding place. If you are not savvy to know that this is abandoned equipment, then DON'T LOOK IN THERE. log a DNF and carry on woth your life. Others enjoy this hiding place."

 

Kids get used to this type of safe equipment(not energized)... Kids "get used to" playing around electrical equipment to find a cache. Parents show them it's okay to open up a electrical boxes to find a cache... Kids DO NOT know the difference between a real or fake box. (You might know, but they sure don't) Then when they're alone and open try to open up a real electrical box to find a cache... it's too late.

 

I'm sure it's nice to see people get that "smiley" on your creative electrical hide but your doing more damage than you realize. (again, this is just my opinion)

 

ps... on the comment earlier... I'll slide down whatever I slope I choose to.

Edited November 2, 2006 by Johnnygeo

[+Johnnygeo]

A lot of you have had some great comments... For and against, and I learn from them.

Thank you

[+WRITE SHOP ROBERT]

we've all seen the forum topics on geocaching in the news. maybe some of you with the good research skills can find some links to news stories illustrating the OP's points

[+Johnnygeo]

If you get the chance please visit My Webpage .

There's some links that you may find interesting under "links of interest".(You may need to scroll down a bit)

Thanks

[+cimawr]

 

The problem is that you might not know there is a problem until too late.

<snip>

Problems do not always result from "shoddy practies and slipshod equipment ". As a poet once wrote, "something there is that does not like a wall". Nature kinda likes to take things back, therefore man-made things, nay ALL THINGS, deteriorate- "he not busy being born is busy dying" as an old rock song goes.

 

From the moment a piece of equipment is installed, it begins to fail. proper periodic maintenance and diligent attention can prevent or at least slow the course of the failure- but where have you ever seen THAT done?

 

 

Bingo.

That's precisely what caused the death of Deanna Green, the 14-year-old girl in Baltimore. The electrical equipment WAS safe when first installed, and the problem was actually with the FENCE, not with the cable...

 

I Googled and found some links on the incident:

 

link

 

link 2

 

link 3

 

And here's a story on the two dogs who were electrocuted simply walking down the street:

City utility boxes are a powerful danger

 

The story also references several cases of humans being killed that way.

Edited November 2, 2006 by cimawr

[+cimawr]

Link to story on electrocutions of animals and humans in Boston and NYC"

 

link

[+Okiebryan]

ps... on the comment earlier... I'll slide down whatever I slope I choose to.

 

Enjoy your slide. Just don't try to take all of us with you by creating new guidelines or banning something because you don't like it.

[+Johnnygeo]

Thanks guys! Those are some great links! You never know when that stuff is going to fail either by human error or father time.

I've done too many investigations this year where human error was involved in either a serious injury or fatality. Way too many! Same things are happening in the States as well.

 

Not that I'll ever know this... but if I save one person/child from getting hurt of killed, I've done my job.

Thanks for all the great comments that have come across this post. Your comments, links, questions help me learn on where I need to focus more energy.

 

The day we stop learning and think we know it all is when... ... ... (well you know the rest)

Edited November 2, 2006 by Johnnygeo

[+Renegade Knight]

Link to story on electrocutions of animals and humans in Boston and NYC"

 

link

 

That story points out that the problem is the elecrical equipment and it's installion in public places. Not that people were doing things to create the failure of the equipment to begin with. It's ironic that the theme of the news article is essentially "electrical equipment installed in public places needs to be safer". Not that people should quit walking their dogs near electrical equipment.

[+Renegade Knight]

Thanks guys! Those are some great links! You never know when that stuff is going to fail either by human error or father time.

I've done too many investigations this year where human error was involved in either a serious injury or fatality. Way too many! ...

 

That's why power companies are supposed to inspect their equipment. When we had our power safety class the instructor gave a descripiton of the inspection process used for his equipment. It was pretty involved. Inspection prevents accidents before they occure. It sounds like you figure them out after they occured.

 

One advantage of a publicly regulated monopoly is that you can mandate these inspections and they can happen since the public utilities commission will allow the costs to be recaptured. In a deregulated power industry you can legislate the standard but the cost cutting and short cuts take their toll.

[+Johnnygeo]

"It sounds like you figure them out after they occured."

Sure, I'll bite the comment: I'll be a little more clear on the types of incidents. The human error incidents that have been occuring mostly are Copper thefts in North America. People opening up panels, entering substations to steal copper. They end up hurting or killing themselves. Also, people have been ruining the integrity of the equipment by tampering with it. Stealing the grounds and bonds that protect you and I. (You seem to be good with google since your rant on deregulated power industry... try typing in copper thefts. There's some great info. )

Also, operators are getting too close to lines because they think an incident will never happen to them.

WE spend a lot of money on maintenance. I know from experience, no matter how much time, money and effort you put in maintenance there's still something that ends up failing.

Thank you on your personal views on the deregulated power industry. You may need to look for another forum on politics

Edited November 2, 2006 by Johnnygeo

[+Renegade Knight]

...The human error incidents that have been occuring mostly are Copper thefts in North America. People opening up panels, entering substations to steal copper. They end up hurting or killing themselves. Also, people have been ruining the integrity of the equipment by tampering with it. Stealing the grounds and bonds that protect you and I. ...

 

First that just sucks. It's also an angle that I overlooked.

I believe in Holland they had people stealing manhole covers to sell the iron. I suspect copper, aluminum (we have had people steel our pipe on the farm, when they don't just throw it in the river or shoot it), and other material thefts are just going to be more and more common. In this regard I wish you luck. I own something like 0.00000000001% of Idaho Power. When it comes to working with utilites they have always been good to work with. Some time ago I had a discussion with a VP about a cache near one of their hydro facilites that was actually very informative. They allow public access. It's vehicles they don't want in the area. The cache was good to go. Someone later tried to chew my butt for placing it where it shouldn't go. I didn't give their opinion much creedence. No the cache isn't near electrical equipment.

[+Johnnygeo]

RE: "It's also an angle that I overlooked. "

 

No, I just didn't explain myself clear enough in the first place.

[+edscott]

Allthough we have found some that have been kinda lame, I personally don't have a problem with these types of hides. Im not an electrician but i do know a few of the basics and feel safe when im near anything that could be hot. I do not think its a good idea to place a cache in an electrical box or around exisiting wiring especially if there's a even a slight chance that it could be energized now or in the future. (ive seen some lighpole hides where the micro was placed in amongst wires,,,not good).

 

As far as the outside of boxes, transformers, poles, etc,,,, yes there is the possibility of a short to the case but if the thing is wired correctly in the first place, then its most likely gonna go to ground. The thing is, anything electrical has the possibility of being a hazard. As someone said above, there are many electrical type items that are placed where people walk by and touch everyday.

 

Kids,, hopefully your young kids won't be caching without you. It is up to parents to show and tell them before they touch electrical equipment, stick their hands in a hole, or even to cross the street for a cache.

 

I look at it this way:

Some people are deathly afraid of water and wont go for a water cache.

Some people dont like urban caches because they feel unsafe in that enviroment.

Some feel unsafe doing a rural or woodsy type cache.

Some people dont want to climb a tree or do anything that involves heights for a cache.

Some dont want to climb a moutain or go into a cave.

And some dont feel safe around electrical type caches.

 

They all have their validity and it's for us ourselves to decide if we want to go for them or not. Heck, there would be no caches to find if you tried to make the them all 100% safe!

 

The other examples you list are essentially ungrounded fears.. apparently the electrical caches you have done are grounded....

Edited November 2, 2006 by edscott

[+Johnnygeo]

Yes. It's a different story if someone steals that ground for copper money or the connection has failed due to age.

What path would the electricity take to go to ground?

[+Confucius' Cat]

Thanks guys! Those are some great links! You never know when that stuff is going to fail either by human error or father time.

I've done too many investigations this year where human error was involved in either a serious injury or fatality. Way too many! ...

 

That's why power companies are supposed to inspect their equipment. When we had our power safety class the instructor gave a descripiton of the inspection process used for his equipment. It was pretty involved. Inspection prevents accidents before they occure. It sounds like you figure them out after they occured.

 

One advantage of a publicly regulated monopoly is that you can mandate these inspections and they can happen since the public utilities commission will allow the costs to be recaptured. In a deregulated power industry you can legislate the standard but the cost cutting and short cuts take their toll.

 

Inspections are great, but failures can and do occur in very short order after inspections. Some things just can't be stopped. Sorta like a car wreck happening because brakes fail right after having them fixed... that is why God made seat belts. And that is why it is VERY POOR PRACTICE to fool with electrical equipment- even if "inspected" properly and on schedule.

 

A lineman inspects his gloves before every job, he also uses a hot stick if at all possible so he does not actually touch the hot wires with his inspected glove any more than necessary. His bucket is also isolated and tested for safety... that is another LAYER of protection in case the other parts might fail AFTER being inspected.

 

My training for low voltage (120-480) inside wiring testing is to test the tester, test the circuit, then test the tester again before declaring a circuit "dead". I doubt many geocachers are willing or able to be that careful.

 

THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR LEAVING IT ALONE!

 

 

What path would the electricity take to go to ground?

EACH and EVERY path that it CAN. That is one of the biggest misconceptions of electricity. People say "electricity always takes the easiest (shortest) route" (back to the source).

 

In reality, electricity takes EVERY POSSIBLE route back to its source. The "easiest" (lowest impedance or resistance) paths get the most current. The "hardest" paths (highest impedance or resistance) get the least current. it is kinda like water in a pipe- the water flows through the pipe because it is too difficult to flow through the walls of the pipe- unless there is a hole in the pipe, then the water flows through the pipe AND through the hole.

 

Actually, there is no such thing as a "non- conductor". All matter conducts electricity to some extent- insulators simply do not conduct well enough to matter at their rated voltage. Even a vacuum can conduct electricity (they used to have these things called "tubes" back in the day)

 

Especially when dealing with HIGH VOLTAGE, things we normally think of as "insulators" like plastic, rubber, kite strings, cloth, tree limbs, "dry" wood, etc, are actually GOOD ENOUGH conductors to KILL YOU.

 

Did I mention that the only safe thing is to LEAVE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT ALONE?

[+Johnnygeo]

Thank you for the great information!!!

[+Renegade Knight]

...Did I mention that the only safe thing is to LEAVE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT ALONE?

Crap, so much for typing this post to the forums on a computer

[+Confucius' Cat]

...Did I mention that the only safe thing is to LEAVE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT ALONE?

Crap, so much for typing this post to the forums on a computer

ZAAAAAAP!

Darn defective keyboard!

[+Okiebryan]

...Did I mention that the only safe thing is to LEAVE ELECTRICAL EQUIPMENT ALONE?

Crap, so much for typing this post to the forums on a computer

ZAAAAAAP!

Darn defective keyboard!

 

I wholeheartedly support a ban on all caches hidden in or around keyboards! We could have saved Renegade Knight's life if we'd had this in place before! Hurry! Quick! Ban them! Archive the existing ones! Quick!

 

[+Johnnygeo]

IImm ussinngg a highj voltagew switch stickl to type this inm fforr pprotectiuon.. lol

[+Outspoken1]

I would think you (Jester) may be taking things to the extreme. The topic in question is avoiding electrical hazards. I am not familiar with electricity other than what I have learned as a child (don't stick objects in electrical outlets) to an adult (Red Cross First Aid classes - do not touch someone who is down from electrical cable; use a non-conducting object to free them). Geocachers (at least myself) tend to get focused on finding the cache - the mental challenge - and may inspect, touch, turn, twist, open things that were not meant to be played with by non-professionals (electricians). A little safety goes a long way! That is all the original post was asking.

 

There is also the Homeland Security issue. Suspicious activity around electrical equipment may be reported. (No, I am not kidding.)

 

Take care,

Outspoken1

[+Renegade Knight]

...

There is also the Homeland Security issue. Suspicious activity around electrical equipment may be reported. (No, I am not kidding.)...

 

The Homeland Security issue and the problems created by having such a department (Think Katrina, FEMA Did great before they were a branch of Homeland Security) will cause more harm to geocaching than about anything else that I can think of.

 

Any and all suspicious activity is supposed to be reported and the only people who are suppposed to excercise judgment are those two whom all this activity is being reported to. As we are not being asked to think, and most people are good at that anyway, scares of one form or another that are just false alarms will becoming inceasingly common and increasingly annoying.

[+Confucius' Cat]

scares of one form or another that are just false alarms will becoming inceasingly common and increasingly annoying.

will?

[+Team Dromomania]

I say use common sense. If you have a fear of electricity then stay away from such caches. I work in the electrical field. I've had to turn off the main breaker to homes where the customers had such a great fear of electricity that my turning off the breaker to the load being worked on scared them because the "lights still work."

 

Much of the discussion here seems to be around "high voltages". That can be a problem but it is mainly the current that kills - not the voltage. I've been hit by thousands of volts of electricity almost every day by static. A taser gun zaps you with thousands of volts. Most people will not die from those high voltages. On the other hand people have been killed from 13 volt car battieries and there is even one account of somebody figuring out how to kill themselves with a 9v battery. That makes me happy that my GPSr runs only on 3 volt.

 

The movie "JAWS" didn't make it less safe to go into the ocean but LOTS of people suddenly had a great fear of sharks and stayed out. Perhaps this discussion will have people think - if only for a moment - before sticking their hands into a place that just might be unsafe. And that's good.

 

Bottom line (for me): I believe most cachers use common sense. No new rules are needed.

[+Renegade Knight]

okay guys,back to the the fundamentals of geocaching...hide a cache in a location that has something to offer the seeker,be it a spectacular view,a great hike you want to others to experience,a bit of a history lesson or maybe just a made up journey that sparks the imagination.Something fun.Like someone posted before,what is the fun or excitement about electrical boxes? I love a new twist to the game as much as anyone else,but they are so many other things to copy or imitate .

 

There is more to the world and cache hides than scenery, and to be perfectly blunt there is more to scenery and more to see in this world than the stuff they put on postcards for the tourists. Fun is in the eye of the beholder. One of the best caches I ever found was in a parking garage. Not because the garage was an architectural wonder, but because of the brilliance of the hide. In a fake light switch box.

 

Did a fake light box switch teach me to open all light switches? No. It taught me how to spot a fake one.

[Suscrofa]

okay guys,back to the the fundamentals of geocaching...hide a cache in a location that has something to offer the seeker,be it a spectacular view,a great hike you want to others to experience,a bit of a history lesson or maybe just a made up journey that sparks the imagination.Something fun.Like someone posted before,what is the fun or excitement about electrical boxes? I love a new twist to the game as much as anyone else,but they are so many other things to copy or imitate .

 

There is more to the world and cache hides than scenery, and to be perfectly blunt there is more to scenery and more to see in this world than the stuff they put on postcards for the tourists. Fun is in the eye of the beholder. One of the best caches I ever found was in a parking garage. Not because the garage was an architectural wonder, but because of the brilliance of the hide. In a fake light switch box.

 

Did a fake light box switch teach me to open all light switches? No. It taught me how to spot a fake one.

 

Yup and if being mistaken open a real one ? You run the risk to be enlightned no ?

[+Renegade Knight]

...Did a fake light box switch teach me to open all light switches? No. It taught me how to spot a fake one.

 

Yup and if being mistaken open a real one ? You run the risk to be enlightned no ?

 

Nope, it's sprinkler heads that I mistakenly open. Not electrical equipment.

 

Did you ever stop looking under rocks for risk of scorpions and biting spiders? Did you stop hiking in the woods for risk of Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Lime Disease etc. I can make a list a mile long of things that you put yourself at risk just to get through life and have a little fun. Don't box me in just because you may have a problem telling a fake box from a real one.