Logging Destroyed With Ngs

[andylphoto]

I have logged several benchmarks as destroyed on GC, and had been considering beginning logging BMs, especially destroyed ones, with NGS. In the report form, it suggests emails should be sent to Deb only when the actual station is found, but removed from the ground. I have read through old threads, such as this one and have found that others have submitted photographic proof of the destruction of intersection stations by email. This would be the route that I would need to take.

 

RK0571 is the current BM that I have in mind. Just looking for guidance as to whether this should be submitted by email as destroyed, or with the form as not found, with a note about its destruction?

 

Thanks for any help. I am new at this, but enjoying the hunt!

[Photobuff]

It's easy. Just email your photos and a short note to Deb at the address given at the NGS site. She'll make the decision, but it sounds like you have sufficient proof. It's harder to get a disk type station destroyed unless you can photograph the disk. One other note- if you're going to have it destroyed, just send the photos and note. Don't mess around with a separate recovery report (Deb told me not to do that). From what I gather, this Deb person is extremely overworked, so think nothing of a very short and cryptic reply!

[mloser]

Intersections stations are easier to get marked as destroyed than benchmarks, because they have adjusted coordinates and are big things. What you need to do is get close to the structure in question and take pics showing the lack of a structure as well as a picture including your GPSr with the GOTO pointing to the coords, showing a lack of a structure. That is the only real way you can show that the structure is the station in question. Additional pictures are helpful too--foundations if they exist, pictures of the structure being razed, etc. I know in once case a person submitted pics from the newspaper of a radio tower hit by a plane.

 

Here is an example of a recent mark I submitted as destroyed: KW3089

 

I have submitted about 50 destroyed marks to Deb. Some she has denied, for instance a station with a badly leaning post she told me to submit as Poor, but for the most part she marks them destroyed. We have gotten to the point where she pretty much believes me when I tell her an intersection station is gone.

 

In a nutshell:

 

1) Get close to the station. If you aren't close you can't say for sure it is the one on the datasheet.

2) Take a pic of your GPSr pointing to the station that ain't.

3) Take some other pics of the area to prove there is NOTHING else there that you might have missed as being the station.

4) Submit to Deb.

5) Wait for a response. There is some confusion about responses from Deb. I am not sure if it is due to her family situation at the moment, or if she has just stopped responding to all my submissions, unless she denies them. Either way, I know to check up on what I have submitted. Lately that can take a few weeks or so.

[ArtMan]

I can't add much to what the previous posters have said. I believe I have had only one station declared destroyed: UPPER MARLBORO CO CTHSE SPIRE (HV7518). This Maryland courthouse was severely damaged in a spectacular fire. I was able to submit references to online news articles and an official press release about the blaze, and I visited the site and provided photos showing the spire structure removed from the building and sitting on the ground awaiting restoration.

 

You will note on the datasheet that my name, not just initials, appears as the source of the report. I don't know if that is the usual procedure, but if you want your name kept out of an official government record, you might advise Deb of that fact.

 

-ArtMan-

[+seventhings]

andylphoto -

 

Photobuff, mloser and ArtMan have laid out the process and parameters for getting the NGS to reclassify a station as DESTROYED. I can add four things to the discussion.

 

1. If you don't have the time (or don't want to take the time) to take several photos of the empty space where an intersection once stood, you may submit a recovery report to the NGS stating that the station was NOT FOUND and you can add an explanation such as: THERE IS NO WATER TANK AT OR NEAR THE LOCATION OF THE PUBLISHED COORDINATES. This is not as good as getting the station reclassified as DESTROYED (and, thus, cleaning up the database a bit more thoroughly), but it is an acceptable alternative.

 

2. When I send an e-mail to Deb, I usually follow the following format:

 

HV1234, BITSKOVILLE WATER TANK, DESTROYED

 

Deb -

 

I recommend that you reclassify HV1234, BITSKOVILLE WATER TANK as DESTROYED.

 

BACKGROUND: The BITSKOVILLE WATER TANK was first observed in 1952 and described as having six legs, standing 125 feet tall, and located in the northwest angle of the intersection of Bitskoville Blvd and Main Street in Bitskoville, PA. Published coordinates are N40-30-30.12345 W075-30-30.98765. The tank was last observed by the NGS in 1981.

 

OBSERVATION: There is no tank standing in the northwest angle of the described intersection, and no tank standing in the vicinity of the location of the published coordinates. There is a capped pipe projecting about 24 inches at or very near the location of the published coordinates.

 

The attached photo is looking northwest from the southeast angle of the intersection toward the northwest angle of the intersection, as described. My handheld's GOTO is pointing toward the published coordinates and reads 121.5 feet. Note the absence of a water tank in the northwest angle of the intersection.

 

Regards

 

3. I have requested (several times) that Deb attribute my report to GEOCAC (WD) to no avail. As ArtMan noted, above, the reporter's full name always appears as the source of the report.

 

4. After I see that the NGS has reclassified the station as DESTROYED, I go back to the Geocaching datasheet and edit my post, something like "Added 04/12/06 - the NGS has reclassified this station as DESTROYED". I get a perverse pleasure from doing this when other benchmark hunters have "found" the station in question. I especially like to do this when the other "finds" are reallly of the (no-PID) 1983 watersphere that replaced the old 1952 tank.

 

Will

Edited April 13, 2006 by seventhings

[andylphoto]

Thanks for the assistance. You have very clearly laid out the process. I will let you know what happens with this.

 

Andy

[StripeMark]

I don't know.... I kind of like seeing my name on the report!

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=PQ0846

[+wildearth2001]

A few days ago I was looking for CZ0584. At the location I was expecting to find the mark, I found a broken concrete cylendar with an impression in the top the size of the standard CGS disk I was looking for. I am convinced that what I found was the destroyed mark. Should I submit this to the NGS as destroyed?

[mloser]

Wildearth,

You can't submit a disk as destroyed unless you can see the disk. An indentation in a concrete cylinder tells you that something was there, most likely a benchmark disk, but not exactly which one. While at times this may seem like NGS overkill, once you hunt a while you will realize that the chances of reporting the wrong disk as destroyed is high enough that their policy is a good one.

 

If the monument is still standing in its original position, that mark should be reported as POOR. Theoretically it can be used for some projects.

[+Ernmark]

....so this example I ran across the other day would be a "poor" to the NGS?

 

KW2064

 

The remaining concrete post is quite sturdy...

[mloser]

Ernmark,

Yes, according to what we have heard from Deb Brown and others at NGS if you find the post but no disk it is POOR. A note in the recovery that the disk is missing but "center stem remains", etc. would be nice also. I hate recovery reports of POOR or NOT FOUND with no further information and imagine that they don't really help surveyors either. For instance, finding a disk that isn't readable because of scratches is different than finding no disk at all. The former would most likely be very usable by a surveyor because the center of the disk can probably be found pretty accurately. The latter would need be less useful as the surveyor would have to determine the real height of the missing disk, or recognize that the elevation may not be exact (which is reportedly useful in some projects that do not demand millemeter accuracy).

[+Ernmark]

Thanks for the info - I have to go thru my GC logs as some of my "not founds" are probably "poors" - I remember some remaining stems..

[+seventhings]

Also, if you submit photos to the NGS (as .jpg attachements to an e-mail), use the following convention for naming the file:

 

PID_YYYYMMDD_C (for "closeup"?) or PID_YYYYMMDD_A (for "area")

 

such as HV1234_20060413_A

 

If you are reporting destroyed intersection stations, use the _A suffix.

 

Will

[andylphoto]

Thanks for the assistance. You have very clearly laid out the process. I will let you know what happens with this.

 

Andy

 

Again, thanks all for the assistance. Just to follow up as promised...

 

I emailed Deb with before and after pictures from the site, and she has logged it as destroyed as of 4/27/06.

 

I don't know when it got entered into the datasheet...I was kind of expecting an email back, but just went and checked it this morning. I read another post this AM (don't recall seeing it before) that usually there is no return email unless the station is NOT destroyed, so now I'll know not to wait for return emails.