Sophisticated Littering ?

[+briansnat]

I have tried to be polite to everyone here, and do not understand the level of mocking and sarcasm

 

I think when someone comes here with little practical experience with the sport and proceeds to tell us we're all doing it wrong, he should expect a little blowback.

Edited April 26, 2006 by briansnat

[+Texsox]

I have tried to be polite to everyone here, and do not understand the level of mocking and sarcasm

 

I think when someone comes here with little practical experience with the sport and proceeds to tell us we're all doing it wrong, he should expect a little blowback.

 

That's not what I said. I said stay on the trail, that people that "just follow the arrow" need to develop better skills.

 

Instead of replies in this vein "of course, all responsible cachers do", the replies are "well deer don't, ATVs don't, fishermen leave line, etc."

 

So would you care to go back to my last post and tell me specifically which points I am wrong about?

 

My background is in 200+ days per year in the out of doors. I believe that allows me to comment on LNT and outdoor skills.

Edited April 26, 2006 by Texsox

[+TotemLake]

I am against comparing to the lowest common denominator. Those fisherman who leave line, those rock climbers who break trees, those backpackers that bury food waste instead of packing it out, ATVs tearing up pristine areas, etc. need to bring their skills to a higher level, we shouldn't encourage dropping to theirs.

I now understand why some land managers are getting so tired with this sport. While other users of the woods are trying to minimize their impact, some people are still living in their own little world. They don't believe they could possibly have an impact, positive or negative.

 

This and other generalizations that you made are not in line with your emphasis of what you are against. Then when examples are brought in, you twist and turn these words to make the remarks look bad. This is why you are having a problem. You are not consistent with your debate, your examples, and your belief system.

 

You generalized against the lowest denominator possible with geocachers to make your argument and you were called out on it.

[Jeremy]

 

 

Some do but rock climbers are still known to cut trees away from cliffs so they get sunlight, creating cracks as the sun warms the rock for new climbing locations. Backpackers still leave their leavings in the woods as well as hikers and fishermen. Principles will affect those who wish to be affected. We do our best to make a good example for others to follow.

 

Doing the right thing starts with you. And generalization is always the lazy argument.

 

So you disagree with staying on the trail until you find the best route to the cache? That was my point.

 

I don't know what your point is. You seem to have a big chip on your shoulder.

[+Renegade Knight]

... staying on the trail until you find the best route to the cache? That was my point.

 

That snippet is generally good advice. Then again Jeremies snippet about dispersion once you do find the best access point is also good advice. Balance.

[+briansnat]

would you care to go back to my last post and tell me specifically which points I am wrong about?

 

OK, for one you are wrong about our encouraging geocachers to drop to the level of those who abuse the outdoors. Nobody here is encouraging that.

[+Texsox]

would you care to go back to my last post and tell me specifically which points I am wrong about?

 

OK, for one you are wrong about our encouraging geocachers to drop to the level of those who abuse the outdoors. Nobody here is encouraging that.

 

Than why was anyone mentioning the actions of others?

[+Renegade Knight]

...I have tried to be polite to everyone here, and do not understand the level of mocking and sarcasm, when I am merely pointing out LNT principles. If you don't think they apply to caching, well I guess we will disagree. I believe they apply to anyone and everyone out in the woods.

 

Welcome to the forums. You will get an opinion to match or counter your own opinion. You have not resorted to name calling, but you have bumped into the forum problem of text lacking the tone and inflection of a voice.

 

Relax, regroup, and keep posting. I think the point you are trying to make is closer to the counter points than both sides realize. It's just how you word what you are trying to get at.

[+Texsox]

 

I don't know what your point is. You seem to have a big chip on your shoulder.

 

My point is, and I will try in another manner,

 

LNT applies to everyone in the woods, no matter their activity.

 

The fact that some fishermen leave line, doesn't excuse others

The fact that some rock climbers damage and destroy, doesn't excuse others

The fact that some hikers discard food waste, doesn't excuse others

 

People seem to think I am slamming all cachers, I am not. Never did. In fact, since leaving a trace makes the find easier, I always believed that cachers would be the very best at leave no trace. Now I am confused, so many seem to want to throw those ideas away.

 

So do you believe LNT applies to everyone, or should cachers be exempt?

Edited April 26, 2006 by Texsox

[+Texsox]

 

Welcome to the forums. You will get an opinion to match or counter your own opinion. You have not resorted to name calling, but you have bumped into the forum problem of text lacking the tone and inflection of a voice.

 

Relax, regroup, and keep posting. I think the point you are trying to make is closer to the counter points than both sides realize. It's just how you word what you are trying to get at.

 

Thank you, I moderate a very busy forum (3,000 members, over 1,000,000 posts) and understand the complexities of on line posts. I just never expected an avalanche against LNT. I am baffled still. I hope it was just a miscommunication. Any sport or activity which encourages people to be in the outdoors, should also encourage the very best in outdoor manners from their participants.

[+Adrenalynn]

What responsible geocaching actually looks like:

 

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...c6-268c6482c6a3

 

Look at the pretty pictures.

[Jeremy]

 

So do you believe LNT applies to everyone, or should cachers be exempt?

 

I think your question is designed to be accusatory and puts people on the defensive. Also since I mentioned we were working with LNT makes me realize you aren't reading everyone's posts - just picking out the stuff you don't like. Either you aren't realizing this or you like to fight with shadows.

[ATMouse]

I have been an avid outdoors person for 30+ yrs. When I camp, I defy you to find where I was. I learned about LNT when I was a child in scouting. I adhere to it yet. I have no patience with any outdoors user who does not ascribe to this philosophy.

 

I am also a cacher - I hide and I seek. I believe in LNT.

 

There are people who participate in activites in the out of doors who clearly do not believe in LNT. I try to model good behavior and to advocate others to emulate the "best practices" of LNT and low impact.

 

Singling out any group as self-evident abusers is generally not a good idea.

Edited April 26, 2006 by ATMouse

[+JMBIndy]

I had to respond to this one. I have already sent a letter off to their editor in rebuttal....see text below.

________________________________________

 

Well written. I hope the editors will take it seriously and allow the letter to be published or will at least give you the courtesy of a response. Please keep us informed...

[+Texsox]

 

So do you believe LNT applies to everyone, or should cachers be exempt?

 

I think your question is designed to be accusatory and puts people on the defensive. Also since I mentioned we were working with LNT makes me realize you aren't reading everyone's posts - just picking out the stuff you don't like. Either you aren't realizing this or you like to fight with shadows.

 

What I was trying to do was be as exact as possible. I found it very interesting that there would be any disagreement to LNT guidelines. It's been years since I've heard these points debated. I hoped by getting to a simple a statement as possible, I could understand where I am wrong in believing LNT has a role in all outdoor activities, even for cachers. I would also like to know how inconsiderate ATV riders, fisherman, hikers, et. al. even fit in the equation.

 

People are putting words in my mouth, claiming I was accusing all cachers, which isn't true. It was never my intent.

 

As far as shadow arguments, I don't like arguing at all, but when I am attacked from all directions, I'd rather stay and defend LNT then walk away.

[Jeremy]

 

So do you believe LNT applies to everyone, or should cachers be exempt?

 

I think your question is designed to be accusatory and puts people on the defensive. Also since I mentioned we were working with LNT makes me realize you aren't reading everyone's posts - just picking out the stuff you don't like. Either you aren't realizing this or you like to fight with shadows.

 

What I was trying to do was be as exact as possible.

 

You specifically asked me if cachers should be exempt when I already indicated that we're working with LNT. If you wish to be exact you should take some time and read my posts.

 

I found it very interesting that there would be any disagreement to LNT guidelines.

 

The only comments I saw was that footprints have minimal impact. I doubt anyone was saying that the principles of LNT are bad in any way. Then you state there is an "avalanche" against LNT? Give me a break.

 

It's been years since I've heard these points debated. I hoped by getting to a simple a statement as possible, I could understand where I am wrong in believing LNT has a role in all outdoor activities, even for cachers.

 

I didn't see anyone state this. You are using circular reasoning.

 

People are putting words in my mouth, claiming I was accusing all cachers, which isn't true. It was never my intent.

 

You were generalizing. Were you not?

[+Texsox]

 

You were generalizing. Were you not?

 

No, I wasn't generalizing, people were putting words in my mouth and jumping to conclusions. I never claimed that all cachers did anything, although others tried putting words in my mouth to that effect. Some people have jumped to the conclusion I was saying all cachers blindly follow arrows, that was not my intent, and I don't believe it was written that way.

 

I have made one generalizaion everyone should practice LNT in the outdoors.

 

Again. In the beginning, all I was trying to say was LNT should be followed. The next reply sarcastically talked about deer and elephants and deer getting together and building trails and that a 140 lb person really doesn't have an impact. Next thing people are posting what about ATVs, what about hikers and bikers and fisherman and campers. Show me where I said all cachers do not follow LNT? Show me were I attacked cachers as a group?

[+TotemLake]

 

You were generalizing. Were you not?

 

No, I wasn't generalizing, people were putting words in my mouth and jumping to conclusions. I never claimed that all cachers did anything, although others tried putting words in my mouth to that effect. Some people have jumped to the conclusion I was saying all cachers blindly follow arrows, that was not my intent, and I don't believe it was written that way.

 

I have made one generalizaion everyone should practice LNT in the outdoors.

 

Again. In the beginning, all I was trying to say was LNT should be followed. The next reply sarcastically talked about deer and elephants and deer getting together and building trails and that a 140 lb person really doesn't have an impact. Next thing people are posting what about ATVs, what about hikers and bikers and fisherman and campers. Show me where I said all cachers do not follow LNT? Show me were I attacked cachers as a group?

 

I now understand why some land managers are getting so tired with this sport. While other users of the woods are trying to minimize their impact, some people are still living in their own little world. They don't believe they could possibly have an impact, positive or negative.

 

You lumped a generalization of some land managers attitudes at the sport while extolling the virtues of other users of the woods. Generally speaking, that was a backhanded remark at geocachers in general becaue you lumped a small group into an attitude of the larger group as a whole.

 

As a neophyte geocacher with no other experience, I would expect nothing less. As a forum moderator and camp director, you should have known better.

[+briansnat]

Show me were I attacked cachers as a group?

 

OK...

 

While the rest of the world is learning new techniques and adapting, you can continue to look like a fool in the woods. Cutting switchbacks, trampling sensitive areas, walking around puddles to make a wider and wider trail. Congratulations!

 

I don't think you were referring to snowmobilers with that comment.

 

Or

 

I now understand why some land managers are getting so tired with this sport. While other users of the woods are trying to minimize their impact, some people are still living in their own little world. They don't believe they could possibly have an impact, positive or negative.

 

Hmmm, or was that one directed towards orienteers?

 

What you did was come here and attack a sport and a group of participants, even though you have no real practical experience. Speaking of which...

 

LNT principles dictate staying on the trail, but I have watched as people are glued to the GPSr, no map of the area, and creating new trails. Things like that are no good for the woods.

 

You've been involved with this sport for what, two weeks? Or have you been hiding in the woods for years, observing geocachers and gathering empirical data?

Edited April 27, 2006 by briansnat

[+clearpath]

Even ignorant people are allowed to have their opinions heard.

Thank you. So here's mine ... calling a geocache 'litter' is like calling the government friendly. It really just depends which side of the fence you're on. We all know it's not litter unless it's forgotten. And thats not likely to happen with all the self proclaimed cache cops walking about.

[+Moose Mob]

This thread has jumped track and probably lost the intentions of the OP

 

I am closing the thread to let everyone settle down. If anyone wants it openned after 12:00 Lily pad time, please PM me, otherwise it will styay closed.

 

Thanks folks!

 

Edit: That would be noon Thursday 4/27/06

Edited April 27, 2006 by Moose Mob