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To Pay Or Not To Pay, That Is The Question


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I subscribe to recieve pocket queries no other reason allthough the bookmark list facility is nice my lists are for others to use.

Anyone who places a cache buys goods or releases a TB, coin also supports the site.

 

It should remain free to use for all, if it did become a subscription only service more splinter groups would emerge i for one would not list on the site and would publicise my caches for free elsewhere as letterboxers do.

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I pay, I'm able to pay, I'm (fairly) happy to pay. I wish the servers didn't keep locking me out.

 

I don't see how withholding my few quid is going to make it any better. I hope paying my few quid has helped.

 

I like PQs, I like not having to enter co-ords by hand. I like going on holiday with 200 sets of co-ords in the GPS and 200 cache descriptions on my PDA.

 

Can't quite think of another way of getting so much fun from £17. I don't think I can get my kids to keep entering co-ords on my GPS for £17.

 

As for the 'what about those that don't pay' question (mentioning no names). Completely up to them. In all activities, some people like to contribute to hobbies and groups. Others seem content to be takers.

 

The contributers find their own way of adding. For some it is financial, others it is time and energy.

 

What about the 'takers'. Not all are in a postion to set caches, or put money in etc, but they may contribute in other ways e.g. by introducing others to the sport who then contribute.

 

The people I do have a problem with:

 

the cache trashers

 

the down-traders

 

the moaners and ranters (unless I agree with their moans and rants)

 

those that place caches in stupid places and give GC a bad name.

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I told myself I would not get involved, but I can't help it.

 

Geocaching is a FREE sport. Some may wish to pay for the PM, some do not and should not be made to feel they should.

With people throwing around remarks about those who do not wish to pay, I am not supprised that there has been a post on another thread from a potential newcomer who is disgusted by the attitude of some of the forumers here.

 

I really am sickened by the way some have expressed their veiws on non PMs. Imagine if every non PM or potential cacher would feel from reading it? They surely would not want to be involved in a hobby that has people who are so disrespectful of others. That would have a far worse impact on the hobby than I care to imagine.

 

And I would like to finish on a thanks to a certain non paying member of this hobby who has contributed so much more than the £17pa fee in sheer number and quality or caches.

 

I hope I have not come accross too negative, I just wanted to voice my oponion on this.

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We are nonpayers and at present non cache owning. :(:( (are they the appropiate smilies?_

 

We would be happy to pay a less than premium membership rate for a standard membership that offered the same as non paying gives at present(we don't need the facilities of premium membership)

However we would prior to that like to see a ban on the placing of polybags outside containers and the use of fixtures to secure caches to public property .

Somehow feel that by not paying for membership we are less condoning of a few practices that we don't like than if we became full blown paying members .We know that's not logical but it is how we feel .

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I've been watching this thread develop over the past few days but have stayed out of it as I felt that opinions ought to be discussed and as I saw it, this was being done in a mostly "non-personal" fashion. I realise now that some people have been personally offended by what others have written. Maybe I am at fault for moderating too lightly and if so, I apologise.

 

I think, however, that on the whole this thread typifies the generally mature approach this forum normally exhibits. Compared with some forum moderators, I have a very easy time here! :(

 

So by all means keep expressing your opinions but, as ever, be mindful of the forum guidelines. Ta.

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We are premium members but only since Christmas because Santa brought me a palm :( and now only to use the PQ's nothing else.

 

I can honestly if it was not for the PQ's we would not have become members, as others have said we feel we contribute in other ways by setting caches and holding events.

 

But please remember too some people will simply not be able to afford the membership, we both work and have two kids and we rob Peter to pay Paul every month the same as I am sure most people do.

 

I think it would be a great idea to have a membership fee of say £5.00 (eg) a year for people who would like to contribute to the site but don't need to use facilities provided.

 

Just our ha'peth worth

 

M :(

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in the last three years, this topic has been discussed several times (over 15) and with almost the exact same comments

 

to pay or not to pay is not the question you should be asking yourself, or indeed others, you should be asking yourself a much more meaningful one (I leave you to fill in the blanks)

 

it would make life so much more enjoyable to go check out your next cache hunt than to flog this carcass again, and if you get stuck I am sure a fellow cacher (pm or not) will offer help, all you need do is ask

 

stay safe

Bill

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As far as I see there is no reason whatsoever to pay. If Groundspeak had any business sense whatsoever the site could be entirely funded from affliate links and subtle advertising, and perhaps even make enough to fund a proper server.

 

As for Pocket Queries, farming software and www.geocacheuk.com offer everything they do in a must easier to access form.

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the use of fixtures to secure caches to public property .

 

To me, that quote sounds like you disagree with using magnets to fix micros to fences (for example). Did I understand that right?? Any particular reason??! :( Just curious!

 

In our opinion a magnet attached to a metal fence post is not a fixture.

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the use of fixtures to secure caches to public property .

 

To me, that quote sounds like you disagree with using magnets to fix micros to fences (for example). Did I understand that right?? Any particular reason??! :( Just curious!

 

In our opinion a magnet attached to a metal fence post is not a fixture.

 

Ah right, I gotcha. For example, a fake letterbox bolted to the wall of the local post office? Not aware of any myself that could be classed as fixtures, but as I said, I thought you meant the old magnetic micro! Gla to clear that up! :(:(

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I think one of the best things anyone can contribute to the game of caching is to hide the box they found better than they found it in the first place. An interesting log, a generous swap (or TNLSomething) or helpful resource online for the use of other cachers all count as contributing in my book.

 

On the fixtures side-topic, I don't like to see hooks, etc. screwed into street furniture either. Anything that can't be removed so that the site would be exactly as it was before a cache or cache element was placed there is poor cache design, in my view.

 

To TDW, continuing my martyr/crucifixion theme: "I forgive you"

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I'm happy with what I wrote, and I wont say any more on the matter :(

 

PQ's are great and very useful to me, as are the other services offered to PM's including the 'first notice about new caches'. And its true, with all the PM's out there I rarely see any members-only caches.

 

Anyway, with all the accusations and counter accusations about whining [which I think is a habit found on all Forums all over the world] we could always start a virtual punchbag room and vent our spleens in there :(

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Summarising the main points of the majority of above posts my family and I are, at this moment in time, non-paying, non-contributing (we haven't hidden any caches or attended any events as yet) freeloading takers who don't add anything to the sport or to the upkeep of the site and are therefore not entitled to a moaning session or much else :blink: . Now, in my personal opinion I wouldn't see this as a very positive or indeed welcoming manner for newbies such as us.

 

Yes, I know the joining date puts us somewhere in 2003. At that time we borrowed a GPS and registered on this site just for something different to do on a sunny day. Only a few weeks ago we decided to give it another try and bought our own GPS so in reality we have only been using the site for a short time. So, is there a timelimit at which point newbies should take out membership in order to stay in the good books of regulars ;) ?

 

As a newbie I am relatively uneducated about such things as PDAs and PQ's and whatever else the premium membership will give me as a bonus feature therefore I decided not to take the membership out - as yet. I may do so in future when the features become relevant for me or once I decided that geocashing is here to stay (I have the awful habit of starting something wholeheartedly only to lose interest after a short while ;) ).

 

However, I don't like the idea of being somewhat labelled inferior to premium members and it is making me think whether the friendly community I thought I had found might not be that friendly after all. As one poster mentioned above, some newbies like myself might be put off becoming prospective premium members.

 

Anyhow, just my thoughts on this issue - if indeed I am allowed to share such as a non-paying user :mad:

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Summarising the main points of the majority of above posts my family and I are, at this moment in time, non-paying, non-contributing (we haven't hidden any caches or attended any events as yet)

 

That's a bit worrying - do you have to attend events to be a contributor ?

 

I think we should be told ;)

 

civilised

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Sigh! ;)

 

Nice to make a new geocacher feel welcome. We seem to have done it again.

 

Sorry about the "welcome" The Botherers, please stick with it and hopefully you'll find we're not as bad as you might first think. I guess you just caught us on a bad day.

 

For my part I would like to welcome you and I look forward to reviewing your first cache. ;):blink::mad::P

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just because people get annoyed and post stuff on the forums this shouldn't detract in any way from the great fun the hobby can be.

 

no one shouldbe putoff the hobby due the occasional raised voices here.

 

neither should people feel unable to express what they feel and think in case they put off any newbie.

 

just keep it nice and fair without personal attacks. :ph34r:

 

it's a tough one to answer really. i pay because i make use of the facilities this gives me. this also gives me a right to complain if the service i pay for is not available.

 

but the service is also provided for free to lots of others....so really they have the right to complain if that is withdrawn but maybe they should be a little more forgiving if the problem is short lived.....

 

we all put in something to the hobby. some place caches some find our caches. it would be a quieter hobby if we pulled up the drawbridge and only allowed PM's.

 

:ph34r:

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it's a tough one to answer really. i pay because i make use of the facilities this gives me. this also gives me a right to complain if the service i pay for is not available.

 

but the service is also provided for free to lots of others....so really they have the right to complain if that is withdrawn but maybe they should be a little more forgiving if the problem is short lived.....

:ph34r:

Nobby et al,

 

Playing dumb here as I do not have the time to research first but does it actually state that the membership fee we pay for is for the service or is it for the additional services we get?

 

At first glance I would say the latter as the website's cache pages are accessible to ALL members, whether PM or not.

 

So, taking a step back, it appears as though the PM fee is for;

 

Instanotify;

PQ's;

Bookmark upgrades;

and other services non-PM do not have access to or are limited.

 

Comments invited.

 

Oss!

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Summarising the main points of the majority of above posts my family and I are, at this moment in time, non-paying, non-contributing (we haven't hidden any caches or attended any events as yet) freeloading takers who don't add anything to the sport or to the upkeep of the site and are therefore not entitled to a moaning session or much else :ph34r: . Now, in my personal opinion I wouldn't see this as a very positive or indeed welcoming manner for newbies such as us.

 

 

As I think my use of the word 'takers' has prompted this I thought I ought to clarify and apologise if required.

 

I did not (intentionally) attach any negative connotation to the word. In fact the Botherers added the word freeloading.

 

My point is that in any activity such as this people will generally fall into two categories. Those that enjoy using a service and those that enjoy creating and providing. Of course people can fall into both.

 

Those that enjoy contributing would be nowhere without the people that use what we have given. Authors without readers, shopkeepers without customers, Scout leaders without scouts, pick your own analogy.

 

I myself use RSPB reserves, National Trust properties, nature reserves, but I'm not a member of any. I don't contribute my time to renovate these places. So I'm a taker, a user of the facilities and I hope that those that provide and maintain these places get satisfaction from the fact that I use and enjoy what they have created. I invite others to come with me and try and get their children enthused about being in the outdoors. I hope that any success I have contributes to a better future somehow.

 

So as I tried to say in my post. I can pay, and I'm willing to pay. I can and have set caches. I'm really happy when I hear of people enjoying caching.

 

I don't get any more pleasure if the person that writes a positive log in my cache is a PM. In fact I think I would get more pleasure if it was a newbie.

 

Further down in my post I wrote that in my opinion it was totally up to each individual whether they wanted to pay the voluntary extra fee or not.

 

So let me say this as clearly as possible. I'm happy to pay. I'm happy that my contributions contribute to the enjoyment of others. I don't see non-payers or non-cach setters or any other 'non' as second class. To some extent these are the very people I am providing for.

 

I then went on to list what I don't like. Perhaps I should have put a smiley next to my 'I don't like moaners' statment to indicate that it was partly in jest, but I thought that the fact that I put '(unless I agree with their moan or rant)' would have indicated that my tounge was fairly firmly in my cheek. I tend not to use smilies, I'm trying to ensure that my words convey meaning, but it appears that I have failed here, for which I apologise.

 

Of course all are entitled to their moan. But I'm also entitled to be fed up with some people who seem to never have anything positive to say.

 

So perhaps the word 'takers' was loaded. I was going to write 'users' but that seemed even worse. Any suggestions? I hate 'consumers'.

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it is making me think whether the friendly community I thought I had found might not be that friendly after all. As one poster mentioned above, some newbies like myself might be put off becoming prospective premium members.

 

 

I'd disagree with your conclusions in this sentence. I think that what you're seeing here is a difference of opinions being debated in an open but not unfriendly way. Similarly the recent dogs thread shows that people in this forum are able to express different, sometimes strongly held, opinions without the discussions becoming offensive.

 

Every now and then a disagreement will arise but then everyone will be snuggling up together and being friends again in another thread before you know it, so don't let one discussion put you off.

 

As Lacto said somewhere above the mods in here don't have too much trouble keeping order, particularly compared to some other online forums where things can (and do) get very nasty.

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I'm a biker (motor), but I also ride a scooter (motor).

 

When on the bike, fellow riders nod in acknowledgement.

When on the scooter I may as well be invisible.

 

Is it the same with cachers ?

Can you tell members from non-members or should we wear badges, so that you can ignore us :-)

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I'm a biker (motor), but I also ride a scooter (motor).

 

When on the bike, fellow riders nod in acknowledgement.

When on the scooter I may as well be invisible.

 

Is it the same with cachers ?

Can you tell members from non-members or should we wear badges, so that you can ignore us :-)

 

Being a fellow biker, I know what you mean! Having said that, not a lot of nodding on London streets, otherwise you'd end up looking like the churchill dog...

 

Call me a snob, but I must confess to only nodding to fellow bikers, not scooters. I apologise for the fact that I only nod at 'proper' bikers! :ph34r: Don't know what this says about me..... :ph34r:

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That's interesting, I'm (sadly) an ex MGC owner - MG's wave at each other, but sometimes old MG's don't wave at new MG's. The line is where Leyland made MG Metro's and Meastro's and Montego's.

 

Anyway back towards the topic - there is (probably) no non perjorative way of describing non premium members, for the very reason that they are called premium members - Jeremy has made it this way in order to encourage people to pay. It's just marketting.

 

In terms of the way GC.com is structured and whether to pay or not: it was decided that this was his business model - the basic facilities are free to whoever wants them. If you want the extra facilities you pay for them. He hopes that you will want them given the teaser, but you are not obliged. He presumably has scaled it up from 'tiny sport' to 'mainstream activity' and decided that it is sustainable. Perhaps adding the new facilities has pushed a variable too far and now, maybe the model needs tweaking (perhaps premium members get a shiney new server whereas the hoi poloi (in the non perjorative sense :ph34r: ) get an old cranky one). Or maybe he miscalculated and should have given less out for free in the 1st place.

 

Anyway, as long as the forum works we're all OK, it's the ones that go caching that have the problem :ph34r: .

Edited by Kitty Hawk
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I pay because I choose to. My business.

 

Others pay because they can't, or disagree with the principal, or don't want premium services etc. Their business.

 

Either option is a valid way to pursue the hobby, until the day that the site owner decides otherwise.

 

End of.

 

Except to say...yes, I know of at least two family teams of cachers who have dumped the hobby altogether because of forum nastiness, and another team who gave up for a while before their friends persuaded them off-forum to return.

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I pay because I choose to. My business.

 

Others pay because they can't, or disagree with the principal, or don't want premium services etc. Their business.

 

Either option is a valid way to pursue the hobby, until the day that the site owner decides otherwise.

 

End of.

 

Except to say...yes, I know of at least two family teams of cachers who have dumped the hobby altogether because of forum nastiness, and another team who gave up for a while before their friends persuaded them off-forum to return.

 

I think we should all think twice before hitting the 'add reply' button when replying to a thread, to consider how new-comers or potential cachers, or even established cachers might interpret what we are saying.

 

I think we forget it not just the regular posters that we all know and love that read what we write. And to many, our comments here are what they see as the voice and opinion of cachers in general. One or two badly worded posts or 'discussions' could put off a lot of people.

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That's interesting, I'm (sadly) an ex MGC owner - MG's wave at each other, but sometimes old MG's don't wave at new MG's. The line is where Leyland made MG Metro's and Meastro's and Montego's.

 

same here, i own a classic mini and often wave at other classic mini owners and they wave back, dont wave at new minis though!

 

however...i do have premium membership as i like the insta notifies, beyond that i dont use the extra features. zr7 is a basic member but neither of us ever really notices it come up so quite frankly who cares??? pay it if you want to, dont pay it if you dont, i cant say its the first thing i ever ask other cachers i come into communication with!

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Hmm, where to start. First let me say that I have not been put off being on the forums or indeed the whole geocaching sport as a result of the discussion on here. I only tried to point out how other newbies like myself might feel. Anyway, although I may have not come across like it, I am fairly thick skinned :ph34r: and not easily offended :ph34r:

 

I would like to say to Keith B that my opening paragraph of my first post was a summary of bits and pieces that have been mentioned in a few posts, not just your own (the freeloading bit came from a different one). I hasten to add though that indeed I have misinterpreted your word choice of 'takers' and after re-reading your post it has become clear that you didn't use it as a derogatory term and I apologise for that error. :ph34r:

 

And yes, I do agree as stated by others that forums are there for opinions to be voiced whether I like them or not, after all that is what they are there for and everyone has the right to their own opinion. However, acknowledging that fact it should also be acknowledged that people might get upset, annoyed or aggravated and as long as they keep responses on a non-personal, unthreatening way, then I believe this is a right that should be honoured as much as the right to have a certain point of view. :lol:

 

To end this rather tedious post of mine I just wanted to add that I don't have a problem with paying and might well do so in future but I think this should be decided on a personal level and not because I feel pressurised in doing so :huh: . Oh, and just to say thanks to all the nice welcomes that I have received. It surely is much appreciated :P

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Well, we certainly had fun on the Geochat last night, didnt we Botherers? :ph34r:

 

It was nice to speak to you in person :ph34r:

 

 

PS: We drive around in the original style Multipla and we wave to each other too, although in Germany they tend to flash their headlights instead :ph34r:

Edited by Alice Band
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We've just upgraded to premium membership and are waiting for it to come through. We decided to upgrade because we feel it's worth it in order to fund the upkeep of the site and are keen cachers. However, our only concern is that this weekend a lot of our local caches have been made available to members only in order to encourage fellow cachers to upgrade, but surely this will make geocaching an 'exclusive' sport and discourage newbies from joining up? They've just heard about this wonderful new sport and decide to check out the website....but they can't even view half of the cache listings to see what it's all about. They're hardly likely to join as a premium member straight up especially if they also have to fork out for a GPS (which is hardly cheap). Rant over :unsure:

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We've just upgraded to premium membership and are waiting for it to come through. We decided to upgrade because we feel it's worth it in order to fund the upkeep of the site and are keen cachers. However, our only concern is that this weekend a lot of our local caches have been made available to members only in order to encourage fellow cachers to upgrade, but surely this will make geocaching an 'exclusive' sport and discourage newbies from joining up? They've just heard about this wonderful new sport and decide to check out the website....but they can't even view half of the cache listings to see what it's all about. They're hardly likely to join as a premium member straight up especially if they also have to fork out for a GPS (which is hardly cheap). Rant over :cry:

i am one of the local cachers who has made my caches member only and i have made my caches pm ones because i can ha ha haaa :( i i love the power :( i thank geocaching for giving me the power :):):D

no ranting from me :)

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They've just heard about this wonderful new sport and decide to check out the website....but they can't even view half of the cache listings to see what it's all about. They're hardly likely to join as a premium member straight up especially if they also have to fork out for a GPS (which is hardly cheap). Rant over :)

 

I have no views whatsoever about the rights and wrongs of premium membership - but I would say that half a loaf is better than no bread.

 

civilised

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Should I, shan't I, Should I shan't I should I pay the fee

Should I become a PM again, I don't know, but it's up to me.

When I was, the stuff I got was of no use to me.

As I am a paper cacher, as I have mentioned a time or three.

I feel there must be more to life than hunt the plastic box.

I could stay and rot in bed and smell just like my socks.

But I like the exercise it gives. To me and to my dog.

We used to go out in all sorts of weather, rain and even fog.

Shall I pay the dollars to them to keep the game alive?

I suppose I must it is only cash, and it helps me to survive.

Edited by McDeHack
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i am one of the local cachers who has made my caches member only

 

Whilst not a problem for me, please remember non premium members may of printed off the cache page and found the cache before it was made into a premium members cache.

 

My opinion is that if you want to place a PM cache do it from day one and dont convert an cache after it has been available to all.

 

In answer to the can a non PM place a PM cache the answer is sort of. Pay for one months membership (£3) create a PM cache (while your at it downlaod the 98PM caches in the UK) let your PM lapse and heh presto you will own a PM cache.

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Unless I am reading into it wrong, I believe that Jeremy's last paragraph is a confirmation that the premium members do pay for the servers?

 

Look here.

 

Well, he said "contributed to". He didn't specify what proportion of the total cost came from PM contributions, what came from sidebar advertising, what came from TB sales and what came from his own pocket.

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