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To Pay Or Not To Pay, That Is The Question


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With handbags flying in the wee small hours this morning centering on the question of premium membership fees, thought it may well be a good opportunity to air the question fully.

 

I do pay to be a premium member, but cannot say that I trouble its additional features. (frankly not worth it imho).

 

No, I look on it as a magazine subscription, (with two coming through my door @£120 per annum), 30$ is peanuts, and gets used far more than the paper type.

 

So how do others justify subscribing or not?

Edited by 2202
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With handbags flying in the wee small hours this morning centering on the question of premium membership fees, thought it may well be a good opportunity to air the question fully.

 

I do pay to be a premium member, but cannot say that I trouble its additional features. (frankly not worth it imho).

 

No, I look on it as a magazine subscription, (with two coming through my door @£120 per annum), 30$ is peanuts, and gets used far more than the paper type.

 

So how do others justify subscribing or not?

I think if you did not pay, then untimately Groundspeak would fold, meaning Geocaching would need a new resource

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I pay for the extra features, and the feelgood factor.

 

Me too, I could live without the extras, although th notifications have helped me grab an FTF - big deal :laughing:

 

However I do think that the whole enterprise would fold if noone paid, so I'm doing it mainly to keep the hobby running. Frankly the cost is peanuts, less than a litre of petrol a week.

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Small price to pay for the features that make it much easy to handle the data.

Not bad for a hobby that's used more regularly than any of my magazine subscriptions. Once that month's mag is read, that's more or less the end of it for another 30 ish days.

 

It's the premium membership that keeps it funded, as noted above, no cash, no cache site.

Edited by CrazyL200
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I pay because I can afford to and by paying hopefully the game will remain free for those that can't afford to pay.

 

I don't use many of the extra features if any, although, in fairness, I'm not sure what is a member feature and what isn't.

 

I don't begrudge those that don't or can't, it is specifically stated that there is no obligation to pay and that is what I signed up to. I am disturbed by other posts in different threads that try to castigate those that don't pay. Sometimes I think we are lucky that the majority of cachers don't visit the forums, just because we credit GC.coms coffers doesn't make us all a credit to the game.

Edited by Kitty Hawk
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Time someone played Devils Advocate, so here goes.

 

"I think if you did not pay, then ultimately Groundspeak would fold, meaning Geocaching would need a new resource"

 

Since Jeremy has promised that "Geocaching will always be free" and kept to it. There must be enough revenue from other sources to not only pay to run the site but generate a reasonable living for him.

 

Also have a look at what income actually comes in apart from premium membership fees (which are paid to access and use high work load resources on the servers).

 

White Jeeps

Yellow Jeeps

TB Tags

Official Geocaching Merchandise

Commercial link up with outside company's (including the UK's first commercial Cache Event)

Tracking No's and Icons for Geocoins

 

None of us know what actual percentage of GC's income is generated by Premium Membership. Until either we find out, or Jeremy states that due to the running costs of the site getting greater than current income. No one can accurately sstate that the site will fold because not everyone is a Premium Member. Trying to do so is just moral blackmail.

 

GC provides somewhere to list and look up caches, but without the cache placers there would not be a site in the first place. How many caches have been placed by non premium members? Caches which help keep this site going!

 

End of Devils Advocate!

 

 

Dave

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Time someone played Devils Advocate, so here goes.

 

"I think if you did not pay, then ultimately Groundspeak would fold, meaning Geocaching would need a new resource"

 

Since Jeremy has promised that "Geocaching will always be free" and kept to it. There must be enough revenue from other sources to not only pay to run the site but generate a reasonable living for him.

 

Also have a look at what income actually comes in apart from premium membership fees (which are paid to access and use high work load resources on the servers).

 

White Jeeps

Yellow Jeeps

TB Tags

Official Geocaching Merchandise

Commercial link up with outside company's (including the UK's first commercial Cache Event)

Tracking No's and Icons for Geocoins

 

None of us know what actual percentage of GC's income is generated by Premium Membership. Until either we find out, or Jeremy states that due to the running costs of the site getting greater than current income. No one can accurately sstate that the site will fold because not everyone is a Premium Member. Trying to do so is just moral blackmail.

 

GC provides somewhere to list and look up caches, but without the cache placers there would not be a site in the first place. How many caches have been placed by non premium members? Caches which help keep this site going!

 

End of Devils Advocate!

 

 

Dave

So what is the cost of a cluster of servers, I ordered an Intel based server which came to over £10k, that is just one server running a smallish database.

 

I think what the average person might not understand is that because you can buy a PC from Dell @ £300 then a server cost just a few quid more; not so, these machines use higher quality components and are tested rigorously before leaving the factories.

 

Also web advertising is not expensive, in fact it is very cheap as the usual model is a one off payment of a few thousand pounds then a penny for every redirect you receive.

 

Presence on the internet, this is not a 512k ADSL like most have at home, the kind of connection Groundspeak requires comes with a very large price tag annually.

 

Staff cost not sure how much in the US a Database Admin gets but over here in the UK you can earn upwards of £80k a year

 

Oh yes and depreciation costings on kit, building costs, running costs.

 

Sorry to say this but you can't expect the servers to be up 24/7 if there is no money in the pots, so all commercial ventures have to be explored. I actively support Groundspeak by paying my £17 a year, it is as many say a no brainer. I also have paid for may TB's and coins; it is a fact of life that a service costs money be that water, gas , electricity or Groundspeak.

 

People who place little if any money into Groundspeaks hands are like Voters who don't vote! If people want to make a complaint then make a contribution to the upkeep.

 

Moote

Edited by Moote.
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for a huge "fat pipe" like an 155 meg dedicated line which ISPs use you are looking at a few thousand a year, so yes Groundspeak does need revenue to survive, but it does make you think what the premium membership money is being spent on?

 

I take it Groundspeak are hiring space at a dedicated datacentre?

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Whether Groundspeak needs the money is not the question for me. I use the facility extensively and am happy to make my contribution. If you like it is a conscience thing. I use it - I pay for that usage.

Anyway PQs are only for premium members aren't they? :D:laughing:

It would be nice though to get speedier access than we seem to be getting most evenings! :ph34r:

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I don't pay to cache because I have crippling personal debt and enjoy public crucifixion. :laughing:

SP I'm also in debt, but I manage it, but I still cache and pay the sum of less than 4.75p a day (or 33.25p a week) to use this facility. I hardly think this is big money, giving up one pint a month or a Mars bar a week or packet of ciggies every 3 months puts things into perspective.

 

As for public crucifixion, I manage to do that OK on here, but still pay!

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Sorry Moote but your reply was a Mountain to crack a grape!

 

My reply was to the comments that everyone should pay a Premium Membership or GC will go under.

 

I have not and did not complain about GC's servers being down! Nor did I complain about Jeremy making money to run GC, and a earning for himself!

 

What I did comment on,was the fact that GC does have other revenues coming in apart from Premium Membership! Something that I am entitled to have a opinion on!

 

I also commented on the fact that a small no of those paying Premium Membership are trying "Moral Blackmail" against those who are not! Please remember the following "Jeremy the site owner promised and has kept to it, that Geocaching would remain free". So please do not take the "Moral" high ground just because you are a Premium member.

 

The ultimate judge about whether this site should be accessed for free is the person who owns and earns a living from it. As he has no problems with it being a non subscription site, then obviously it is not a lack of revenue but a technical issue which are causing the problems.

 

Dave

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Sorry Moote but your reply was a Mountain to crack a grape!

 

My reply was to the comments that everyone should pay a Premium Membership or GC will go under.

 

I have not and did not complain about GC's servers being down! Nor did I complain about Jeremy making money to run GC, and a earning for himself!

 

What I did comment on,was the fact that GC does have other revenues coming in apart from Premium Membership! Something that I am entitled to have a opinion on!

 

I also commented on the fact that a small no of those paying Premium Membership are trying "Moral Blackmail" against those who are not! Please remember the following "Jeremy the site owner promised and has kept to it, that Geocaching would remain free". So please do not take the "Moral" high ground just because you are a Premium member.

 

The ultimate judge about whether this site should be accessed for free is the person who owns and earns a living from it. As he has no problems with it being a non subscription site, then obviously it is not a lack of revenue but a technical issue which are causing the problems.

 

Dave

 

Did I say everyone, no you misquote there I said "I think if you did not pay, then ultimately Groundspeak would fold, meaning Geocaching would need a new resource"

 

My argument was if you pay nowt then accept what you get. If that means server down issues then that is what you are paying £0 for.

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I pay because I believe it is morally correct. Yes, I use the premium perks, but I have been paying so long, I don't know what I get extra now. I also feel that with paying I can assist other members to enjoy the experience more, for example my bookmark lists, have to be kept up to date, and took me a considerable amount of personal time to make. Granted they are for Edinburgh, but people have undoubtedly got the benefit out of those bookmarks.

 

Lets face it, it doesn't exactly break the bank? To be able to place lots of geocaches, afford to maintain them and then say you can't afford £17 pa, is all a bit of tongue in cheek to me!

If you can't afford your membership. Then I would say it is very questionable if a person can afford to place and maintain caches, therefore they should really think before placing any caches at all.

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Lets face it, it doesn't exactly break the bank? To be able to place lots of geocaches, afford to maintain them and then say you can't afford £17 pa, is all a bit of tongue in cheek to me!

If you can't afford your membership. Then I would say it is very questionable if a person can afford to place and maintain caches, therefore they should really think before placing any caches at all.

Yes, it was tongue in cheek - well spotted. I also don't really enjoy public crucifixion. Can you not accept that some people make a choice not to pay because they don't want to, don't need to, can't afford to, wouldn't see an improvement in services or usable features if they did and/or feel they've contributed enough to the sport in other ways? What part of that is so unreasonable?

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Reading various threads over the last week I'm wouldn't be surprised is it's put potential newbies off taking up caching.

 

Lets face it :-

 

basic members can't moan about gc.com access problems for a service that's given free with no guarantees

 

likewise

 

premium members can't moan about basic members not taking out premium membership, when it's clear that it's how gc.com as a business wants to run it's business.

 

Face it everyone (basic/premium) makes a contribution somehow and it's upto gc.com to decide how best it wants to make the balance to make it's business work - it's not for us to make judgments on anyone.

 

I notice that Fellsmanhiker's has made all his caches members only this weekend (his choice), now if all premium members were to do this then I could see it affecting gc.com as a business

 

likewise

 

If basic members like 'Simply Paul' were to archive all their caches then the same would happen - swings in roundabouts.

 

For the record I've not taken premium membership simply because I've got no need for the extra high-bandwidth services, it's my choice and gc.com are happy with that, if at anytime in the future they are not then their business model will be changed to reflect this. At the end of the day gc.com isn't a charity it's a business, no one is obliged to take out premium membership, if that was the case basic memberships would of been trail memberships by now - you never know they may do this in future.

 

gc.com will have problems in the future, it's guarteed - all it takes is a national paper or tv station to mention geocaching at the site will get overloaded, it's happened to other sites over the years, it's even happened to the bbc a few times.

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I've got no need for the extra high-bandwidth services

Not sure what this means, I see a difference of 1k in page size when logged onto an account which is standard membership. Hardly an increase of bandwidth to warrant the words extra high!

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Rant:

 

I've got no job, I receive no benefits and live with a tightwad, yet I still coughed up and payed my membership using pennies I'd saved up. And I have University debts. So if I can others can :laughing:

To me geocaching is a hobby, and joining is like joining any society. I know that some of the non-paying members who have responded above are quite happy to spend more than that at an evening in a pub. And I also know that if the cachers who have been doing this for more than a couple of years coughed up their long overdue membership fees then Jeremy would have the extra money needed to invest in bigger servers.

 

My feeling is that GC.com after a year of free membership should offer either full membership or a low-fee associate membership. This site would improve dramatically as a result and also stop some of the caching-hating sock puppet accounts.

 

/Rant.

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Yes, it was tongue in cheek - well spotted. I also don't really enjoy public crucifixion.

And I really don't like being patronised, something you have a knack of doing. As you have said on many occassions, I am entitled to my opinion. Can't you accept that?

 

Alice Band, I would say that was far from a rant, but a very good point that was well made.

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I pay because I can afford to and by paying hopefully the game will remain free for those that can't afford to pay.

 

I don't use many of the extra features if any, although, in fairness, I'm not sure what is a member feature and what isn't.

 

I don't begrudge those that don't or can't, it is specifically stated that there is no obligation to pay and that is what I signed up to. I am disturbed by other posts in different threads that try to castigate those that don't pay. Sometimes I think we are lucky that the majority of cachers don't visit the forums, just because we credit GC.coms coffers doesn't make us all a credit to the game.

 

I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Kitty Hawk. Without ever getting into the how much profit Groundspeak may or may not make (which is a whole other can of worms), it is not obligatory to become a premium member. End of story.

 

By the way, if so many people think that we all should pay, how come so few premium member caches?

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how come so few premium member caches?

All my caches now start off as premium members only. They have done since Sock Puppets started spoiling FTF's.

I make them available for all because I didn't pay for the first few months, and wanted to find out if I was going to keep going or not. Therefore after the premium members have had the first hit at my caches, I make them available for all.

There are also users that other members of their family pay the full subscription, and they don't have full membership, thus meaning they can't log a cache that they may have visited with their parents for example, which happened recently with one of my premium caches.

As I have said in the SP thread that has been used as a 'told you so', I do not mind other members of a household having a free account when one member of the household pays.

 

Anyway, I've now had enough of all the whinging, on both sides, myself included. I'm calling it a day. :laughing:

 

With this discussion that is! :D

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At the end of the day NOBODY should be criticised for paying or not paying membership. It's not obligatory or mandatory!

 

I pay because I want the PQ's to keep my pda and GPS up to date so I can cache - my way.

 

If I didn't want the PQ's I probably wouldn't pay either - despite the means to pay (I just put my karate lessons up! [:laughing:]

 

Thinking about it - I probably would pay because in my eyes it is not extortionate or greedy. Once I believe it to be so, I will stop paying.

 

Oss!

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At the end of the day NOBODY should be criticised for paying or not paying membership. It's not obligatory or mandatory!

 

I pay because I want the PQ's to keep my pda and GPS up to date so I can cache - my way.

 

If I didn't want the PQ's I probably wouldn't pay either - despite the means to pay (I just put my karate lessons up! [:laughing:]

 

Thinking about it - I probably would pay because in my eyes it is not extortionate or greedy. Once I believe it to be so, I will stop paying.

 

Oss!

 

here here i feel the same exept the karate bit as i dont do it lol

 

at last some scence and truth

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At the end of the day NOBODY should be criticised for paying or not paying membership. It's not obligatory or mandatory!

 

I pay because I want the PQ's to keep my pda and GPS up to date so I can cache - my way.

 

If I didn't want the PQ's I probably wouldn't pay either - despite the means to pay (I just put my karate lessons up! [:laughing:]

 

Thinking about it - I probably would pay because in my eyes it is not extortionate or greedy. Once I believe it to be so, I will stop paying.

 

Oss!

 

I'm with Sensei (and a number of others) here. I first took out premium membership purely because I wanted the benefits of PQs. Instant notifications are a bonus of course. So far, I haven't griped about the state of the servers, although it IS incredibly frustrating, and led to some recent mix ups with logging travel bugs and the like. However, I can live with it. I don't really feel that being a PM entitles me to complain more. Being a PM entitles me to PQs and a few other things, thats all...

 

I must say, I don't know HOW SP manages to cope without PQs, but he obviously can. :ph34r: Equally obviously, this isn't about the cost. I'm sure SP would be the first to admit that if he wanted the PM facilities, $30 isn't much to pay, and is perfectly affordable. Its not really about the cost... If I didn't need them, I may or may not pay. I think SP has put enough back into the sport and brought more than enough new premium members into the fold, so shouldn't be crucified (even if he does secretly enjoy it) for not paying in the way others do. Oh, and I don't EVER recall him complaining about downtime of the servers, only asking what premium members felt.

 

Finally, I may not agree with what someone has to say, but I will defend to the hilt his right to say it. A saying I think we could all take note of... :D

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I pay up because I like the fact that I can download all the waypoints in the click of a switch, istead of the hours of frustrating maual working.

 

Pocket Queries are worth the fee itself, but I also discovered the Geocaching overlay for Google Earth that is free to premium members great - yes, I know I could get Memory Map installed blah blah, I just haven't gotten round to it yet!

 

Instanotifications are great for the glory hunters - sorry - FTF'ers among us, I don't tend to pay them much attention.

 

Like Stuey said way up at the top there... I like the feel good thing too - knowing I'm helping to keep it cheap, and putting something back into the insane hobby.

 

There is no right or wrong, and personal choice is something that we value in a democracy - let not have any bust ups over this issue YET AGAIN!!

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:laughing: well we are pm but we dont use any of the features (is there any) i just like to give something back so we can continue caching even if the site is the slowest thing since tony blair and it keeps chucking you off blah blah blah to be honest do i care if you pay or not no its upto you the site gives you that choice now if we were talking the british taxing system now theres one you can shove right up your ---- .

:D

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I have no problem criticising those who don't pay. They all seem to be loudest whiners also. Frankly I hope someday the PMs will have dedicated servers and the rest of you can languish with slow servers.

I think you'll find that more PM whine more and louder 'cos they expect a better service. :laughing:

 

Saying that I hope your comment was "tongue in cheek" as my computer screen didn't seem to display the smilies after your post!

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I have no problem criticising those who don't pay. They all seem to be loudest whiners also. Frankly I hope someday the PMs will have dedicated servers and the rest of you can languish with slow servers.

I think you'll find that more PM whine more and louder 'cos they expect a better service. :)

 

Saying that I hope your comment was "tongue in cheek" as my computer screen didn't seem to display the smilies after your post!

 

My gut reaction would also be that PM's whine more. Considerably more.

 

Now I have a thought - how many people does this forum actually discourage from caching by the bullying, whinining and general negativity?

 

How many potential premium members have gone off to take up knitting?

 

How many premium members have left the sport and taken their premium membership with them as a result of the constant bellyaching that goes on here?

 

I suspect that that would be an uncomfortable thing to know, if it were possible to find out.

 

Adrian

 

Since SP seems to be 'on the recieving end' a bit, I would like to say that despite not knowing him, he strikes me as being an asset to the sport. Like other assets to the sport now and historically, there are those that will do their best to knock him/them. It's the british way, to knock anyone whose head rises above the parapet and it makes me ashamed to be associated with those that do. :)

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Well, speaking as a freeloading scumbag, I don't pay because I don't have to pay. It's the same reason that I don't pay for my hotmail account. If I decide that the extra features are worth it (and I am considering it), then I'll pay the fee for those extra features.

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Now I have a thought - how many people does this forum actually discourage from caching by the bullying, whinining and general negativity?

 

How many potential premium members have gone off to take up knitting?

 

How many premium members have left the sport and taken their premium membership with them as a result of the constant bellyaching that goes on here?

 

I suspect that that would be an uncomfortable thing to know, if it were possible to find out.

 

Adrian

 

Since SP seems to be 'on the recieving end' a bit, I would like to say that despite not knowing him, he strikes me as being an asset to the sport. Like other assets to the sport now and historically, there are those that will do their best to knock him/them. It's the british way, to knock anyone whose head rises above the parapet and it makes me ashamed to be associated with those that do. :)

 

Well said Adrian - a welcome voice of reason. I do not know SP but, to me, he seems to be one of the real characters of UK geocaching. I tend to read his posts as they are generally well written, considered and honest.

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Great post by Kitty Hawk :) . Well said!

 

To others - don't confuse bellyaching with posting opinions and constructive criticism, though: there's nothing wrong with disagreeing, or with pointing out problems. It's often just the way it's done that can put people off.

 

HH

 

Back on topic - I'm happy to pay the subscription, for GPX files and bookmarks if nothing else.

Edited by Happy Humphrey
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Since SP seems to be 'on the recieving end' a bit, I would like to say that despite not knowing him, he strikes me as being an asset to the sport. Like other assets to the sport now and historically, there are those that will do their best to knock him/them. It's the british way, to knock anyone whose head rises above the parapet and it makes me ashamed to be associated with those that do. :)

I know that I had said that I was not going to say anything else, but I feel as though I must answer Kitty Hawks remarks.

 

First of all Adrian I am sorry that you feel as though you cannot be associated with me. I can assure you I do not knock people for rising above others, unless they tend to rub it in other peoples faces, something which doesn't really tend to happen within this hobby.

 

As for SP being at the receiving end or being crucified is simply not true. SP has been the one to be more vocal on his side of the fence, and put across personal views which have required an answer. Some of these views he has related them to himself to make his point more so. Are we supposed to avoid these remarks so that we are not accused of persecution? No, I answered them as did others, and now I am being accused of being a bully. My comments are projected towards anyone who may have the cap that fits. If that is perceived as bullying, then I apologise to all, as I hate bullies and don't wish to be labelled as one.

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I'd like to thank everyone who's offered words of support, both on the forums and by email/message. You're very kind. Some have said they'd like to publicly support the 'But no one HAS to pay' cause but 'fear' the reaction if they do. That's not a great reflection on this forum. :)

 

As has been pointed out, everyone is entitled to their opinion but I've taken umbrage at how some of those opinions have been expressed, especially where they've been expressed aggressively and perhaps looked more like a personal attack than a reasoned argument. I will always defend my point of view while I think it's a valid one, but would like to apologise to Third-Degree-Witch for the 'archive all my caches' comment - that was below the belt. I've also patronised HH, which is my habit when someone states the bleedin' obvious, but I am also saying sorry to him for any offence caused.

 

When I've defended my choice not to be a premium member I've tried to do so for all non-PMs. When things have been a bit more personal, I've expressed my personal opinion. For example: *I* think it's naive to imagine premium membership is paying for GC.com when Groundspeak have many other revenue streams. And there's always Waymarking.com that's being funded by...? That said, I'm not knocking Premium Members. Your contribution to the sport and its infrastructure is, at least, measurable. Mine isn't.

 

I could afford the £17 to become a PM but don't believe in buying other people's respect (as such respect is worthless, I'd say) and that's all that my becoming one would do for me at the moment. Should I get the technology which would make use of PQs, etc, or grow bored of entering co-ords by hand, I may rethink my decision. The feel-good-factor others mention, I get from the emails saying 'thanks for setting a cache here' - which I like to think means I've also made a cacher in the UK feel-good too, rather than the bank account of a foreign firm 'feel-good'.

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SP, thank you for the apology and if I have caused you offence then please accept my apologies too. :)

 

I may have missed something at the beginning of these discussions, but the way you have just put your above point is an extremely fair way to view things, and I respect that view. I too hope that I have not gained respect only through paying for my membership, and that any respect that may come my way is for the reasons that you have listed.

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