Jump to content

Lack Of Safety Informatio On Geocaching Web Sites


Followers 8

Recommended Posts

 

Yes, the sun rises in the east and sets in the west. The problem we have here in eastern Canada is that while the above statement is true, we have many overcast days and days that become overcast when you least expect it. We also have this funny natural effect called fog. It also appears when you least expect it. So yes the sun rises and sets everyday, but if you can not see it then it is as useless as your $400.00 GPS that has run out of batteries or fell off the cliff.

 

Another way to navigate without a compass is the way my surveying instructor (30 years ago) taught me was usiong a watch to find north.

 

Basically it goes like this, "Point the hour hand at the sun when you are north of the equator. South will be halfway between the hour hand and 12 o'clock."

 

But as you can see it involves seeing the sun. It also involves an analog watch that has hands, but now we mostly ignore the analog watch for the electronic, much the same way as we ignore the compass. He told the class this just before he dug ut his trusty brunton compass and taught us how to use it with and without a map. A compass is very useful, even without a map. If you looked at the topo that you left in camp or saw a road as you were choppered into an area, you can get a general trend on where it is and move in that direction.

 

If a buddy gets beaver fever and bolts into the woods, after you have called for any assistance available to you and before you give chase, yoiu should geta general bearing on his direction so you can reverse it on the way out. Can't do that with a basic GPS.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my GPS. It makes life very easy. but I would trust a compass with my life. Can you say that of your GPS?

 

Plasma Boy I lived in Canada for about 13 years not so long ago so am fully aware of the cloud cover and fog But was always aware of where the sun rose from.

I agree that being able to use something as basic as a compass should be "learned" before going out into the bushes. I have had good quality compasses point me in totally the wrong direction due to the metal content of the surrounding rocks at that stage I chose to trust my instincts and the sun which is why I am able to sit here and type while speling so badly. I guess I just find it amazing that so many folk would not be able to find their way out of the shower without a GPSr.

 

I grew up sailing and hiking in the bushes (not in Canada) so learnt navigation at an early age. When ever I go to a new city I always try to get lost within the first few days, so far I have only managed it in Tel Aviv and that was because I left the hostel at 9pm.

Link to comment
As to the disclaimer, if someone were to take Groundspeak to court that disclaimer wouuld not hold up. I have seen signed waivers overridden in court even when it was blatantly the suers fault.

I am sure that if someone were to take Groundspeak to court we could arrange a hit in no time at all.

 

That's correct according to an attorney friend of mine. Despite the disclaimer they share some responsibility because they APPROVE the caches before publishing them.

Link to comment

Here is a question for the OP.

 

Even if this site and each cache owner did exactly as you wished in exactly the way you would have them do it, would you actually quit looking out for the safety of your friends and family because the site already did it?

 

Would I quit looking out for the safety of my friends and family, if the information was on this site?

 

Well, firstly, it isn't and secondly no I would not. Having it here would make it alot easier though. Rather than directing them to various web pages, I could send them to one that was vetted by experienced outdoors people. Whenever I am in the woods, I always instuct those with me how basically to use a compass. If they do not have one, I lend them one of my many. I suggest that if they are going to be in the woods often they get one and learn how to use it. It is only a suggestion. Before we venture forth, we have a little safety talk. My daughter knows how to use a compass (as does my wife and most of our friends). She knows how to set the declination and where to find it. She like myself do not fully know the science behind declination, but knowing how to set it correctly is enough. She like myself is not an expert with a compass, but she could get out of trouble using one.

 

Let me clarify this one last time. At no time did I say that cache placers should list every danger on their cache page. I do not expect the placer to wait at the head of the trail and guide the seeker to the cache location. The safety information does not need to be specific to each cache. If there is a specific danger near the cache site, it would be nice to include that. The general safety information could be located as I have said on ONE page, titled Safety Considerations. It could be linked from cache pages, but not neccessary. This would not take up much space. It is not mandatory that you read it or follow it. It is just there if you want to utilize it. It is a resourse.

 

I fully agree that the safety responsibility is totally the requirement of the seeker. Know your own limits. It is obvious that most of the respondents know them and abide by them.

 

I agree that the gross majority of caches are located along well traveled paths and the majority of seekers will never get into problems.

 

I agree that the web site are not responsible for seeker safety. I just think it would be a nice gesture to offer inexperienced caches some suggestions of safe practices. Obviously most of you do not agree. Why, I can't fathom.

 

I cross posted this to my local geocaching association. Their reaction has been totally opposite to most of the responses here. For the most part they think it is a good idea. They are thinking on putting such a page on their site. They may have safety seminars. They are not doing this because of legal liability. They think that knowledge is a good thing. Considering that I do not leave eastern Canada that often, having the information on their pages is good enough for me. The rest of you can carry on as you see fit.

 

I wrote the original post because I thought I was doing a good thing. Most of you do not agree. I suppose that the most important thing is that eastern Canadians and visiting cachers will have the oppurtunity to view safety information if they so choose. Thanks for the discussion.

Edited by Plasma Boy
Link to comment
As to the disclaimer, if someone were to take Groundspeak to court that disclaimer wouuld not hold up. I have seen signed waivers overridden in court even when it was blatantly the suers fault.

I am sure that if someone were to take Groundspeak to court we could arrange a hit in no time at all.

 

That's correct according to an attorney friend of mine. Despite the disclaimer they share some responsibility because they APPROVE the caches before publishing them.

Not true. Volunteer cache reviewers simply review the cache submissions to confirm whether they meet the listing guidelines, to make sure the coordinates aren't in the middle of the ocean, etc. There's nothing in the guidelines requiring a safety check, and permission is ordinarily assumed unless there is a published geocaching policy to verify against.

 

That is why the volunteers are called "reviewers" rather than "approvers."

Link to comment
That's correct according to an attorney friend of mine. Despite the disclaimer they share some responsibility because they APPROVE the caches before publishing them.

 

I've listed caches I didn't "approve" of at all. They met the guidelines so I listed it on the site--there's no guideline about a film can in a trash heap, and I was able to put it on my ignore list.

 

:(

Link to comment
The first one I attempted to find brought me to a trail head with two signs , one which was a warning that there was hunting on adjacent lands and to wear brightly colored clothing and be careful, and another sign which warned that this was a lyme tick area.

 

Well we hightailed it out of there and I was extremely disappointed that this wasn't mentioned on the page for the cache. Had I known about the hunting I wouldn't have bothered going out there.

I also know there are bears in our area, though there was no sign for that. I'm guessing that sign had probably succumbed to the weather. Had this happened to the hunting sign, and I had experienced hunters while trying to find the cache, this would be a very different post indeed, lol.

 

.....

 

Anyway, I agree that most of the responsibility has to fall on the the person heading out into the woods, but whether they want it or not, or whether they have any legal responsibility or not, the website that posts these caches IS responsible for a degree of safe listings and the person hiding the cache is responsible for making it a safe one and letting people know what they are in for if they try to find it.

 

Just curious, did you log a DNF or a note on that cache mentioning your experience? The cache owner may not have known themselves about the hunt seasons. And there's almost no way the website (ie, reviewer) would know, unless it happened to be in an area they personally cache.

Link to comment

 

I agree that the web site are not responsible for seeker safety. I just think it would be a nice gesture to offer inexperienced caches some suggestions of safe practices. Obviously most of you do not agree. Why, I can't fathom.

 

 

Geocachers are not safety experts. Some of us aren't even safety conscious. Many of us are alive only by the grace of God because of the dumb things we've done while caching. You want us to teach you about safety? Ha! This web site is for listing caches, and it serves its purpose well. There are other web sites dedicated to outdoor safety that are full of experts and reliable, accurate and up-to-date safety information. You're better off using information you find on them than you would be if you listened to us here. Therefore, by NOT posting potentially incorrect or outdated safety information here, gc.com is helping to ensure that you're better educated about safety by forcing you to go to much better, more up to date resources for your safety information. And you thought they weren't concerned!

 

:(

Link to comment

Meh. A colleague of mine once bought a laptop (I think it was a Toshiba) and the instruction manual said, "if the screen tears, do not drink the liquid inside." When did the whole world turn into my Aunt Ruth?

 

As a matter of public policy, I think it's actually quite dangerous to warn people too freely and too often. It desensitizes them, it infantilizes them and it makes them incautious and less likely to appraise danger for themselves. Have you ever bought, say, a drain cleaner and caught yourself thinking, "well, this stuff can't be all that dangerous or they wouldn't sell it to ordinary consumers like me"? Do you completely skip over the warnings in the instruction manuals, because they run for pages and warn you about stupid stuff like drinking the liquid out of your LCD?

 

Yeah. See, this isn't making us safer. Treat grownups like grownups and expect them to make good decisions or suffer the consequences.

Link to comment

Use common sense people. Know your limitations. Plan ahead.

 

I agree, but too many folks just don't. That's why I over value the terrain and difficulty on some of my caches where there's a real possibility of having your day ruined if not worse for not coming prepared.

 

Some idiot who caches willy-nilly would probably pass on the terrain and difficulty on a few of my caches and if they didn't, they could find themselves in the middle of nowhere with a broken vehicle and not enough water to hike out. Chances are the same idiot would blame ME for their bad time.

Link to comment

Plasma--Nobody is arguing against the usefulness of outdoor skills and training, they're just saying that a one-page safety briefing by GC.com might

  • not be sufficiently comprehensive to actually be helpful
  • imply that all there is to wilderness survival can be covered in a brief warning
  • imply some responsibility of GC.com for the safety of cachers in the wilderness

My bookshelf groans under the weight of books on woodcraft, outdoor skills, navigation, desert survival, etc. But I'm sure there are many caches that would fall through the cracks. I have nothing on boating safety, SCUBA diving, arctic survival, spelunking, urban survival, and very little on rock-climbing.

 

Honestly, Plasma, I think some of the reaction you've received stems from the contradiction between your intelligently written, carefully structured posts and their naive premise. The suspicion that you're putting us on or trolling has crept into the tone of some of the responses (probably including mine).

 

Bottom line: Modern society is reaching a saturation point with warnings and disclaimers at which they're counterproductive (expressed more eloquently in previous posts).

Link to comment

The fact is that knowing what direction you are heading can be very helpful. The majority of people who get lost without a compass become disoriented and end up going in circles. A 16 year old girl proved this. Here's a good quote from Everything2.com:

 

.......sigh - my wife the science teacher would be quick to point out that all her limited test accomplished - was to find data that tended to support her hypothosis........hardly proof

 

I might also point out that if I am blindfolded - I will be unable to see my compass. :(

Link to comment

...

The fact is that knowing what direction you are heading can be very helpful. The majority of people who get lost without a compass become disoriented and end up going in circles. ...

Oh, come on Jeremy...The majority of people? OK, in dense fog, or a blizzard, sure. But at other times, it is so very easy to tell what direction you are headed--even without a compass.

 

I always carry a compass in the woods, but I am prepared to navigate without it. Even my 8-year-old granddaughter is learning how, and can usually use the sun and the time of day to tell direction, as well as read a topo map.

Link to comment

I can't accept that this site has ANY responsibility for safety as regards geocaching. But then also, I don't think that the cache placer has a blanket responsibility in that direction either.

If a cacher has no concept of personal safety and how to maintain it then said cacher has no right to be caching anyhow. Indeed, he probably has no right to get out of bed! Specific hints and tips are good, I refer to stuff like 'way point your car when you start out'. However, things like first aid training are purely the responsibility of the individual. If you think that you know enough to keep yourself safe and secure on a cache hunt then go hunt caches.

If caches were all in a specific type of surrounding then safety training might be a valid point. In the real world, it is up to you to decide if your cacheing trip poses a danger. The next one may be different and will need a different assessment. Do you cache alone or with a few fit and healthy friends? Do you cache with a mixed group including older people, unfit people, disabled people and possibly minor children?

I am not against the principle of learning first aid and any extras that may be on offer. Such training should simply be one of the variables considered when making up a list of caches for the next expedition. Also, be prepared to skip a cache and move on to the next one if it looks more difficult (read dangerous), in the field, than it did on the description.

I know that there will be someone who will read this and have a story to tell that turns what I have said completely on its head. There are exceptions to everything. At the end of it all, this is about personal risk assessment. You decide what you will take on at your level of ability - then get more training if that seems like a good idea. Life is about variables, not constants.

Link to comment

Oh, come on Jeremy...The majority of people?

 

... who get lost.

Even so, it seems a bit of an exaggeration. Whatever.

 

Personally, I indemnify Groundspeak and hold it blameless for any injuries that I might suffer while geocaching. I accept full responsibility for my own safety.

 

Of course, I am speaking only for myself. I would never presume to speak for everybody in the forum (as someone recently did). ;)

Link to comment

...

The fact is that knowing what direction you are heading can be very helpful. The majority of people who get lost without a compass become disoriented and end up going in circles. ...

Oh, come on Jeremy...The majority of people? OK, in dense fog, or a blizzard, sure. But at other times, it is so very easy to tell what direction you are headed--even without a compass.

 

 

Not quite as easy as you think. The one time in my life that I was lost in the woods it was an overcast day, but otherwise clear. We encountered the same clearing three times over a period of several hours. We were walking in circles. The second time we encountered it we consciously tried to stay straight and still couldn't.

Link to comment

Not quite as easy as you think. The one time in my life that I was lost in the woods it was an overcast day, but otherwise clear. We encountered the same clearing three times over a period of several hours. We were walking in circles. The second time we encountered it we consciously tried to stay straight and still couldn't.

 

A good test of how likely you are to get into trouble in the wilderness is how many definitions of lost you can list in a minute. If it's less than three, I see navigational difficulties in your future. If you're pooh-poohing this statement, or thinking that lost can only happen if the GPS dies, you're headed for serious difficulties--stay in areas with good cell-phone coverage!

 

I say this in all humility--I've personally been at least five kinds of lost, usually while knowing my position pretty accurately. Heck, I was once recruited to get lost on purpose so that a search-and-rescue training mission could find me for practice. They did. That was good; it was summertime in the Mojave desert.

Link to comment

...A good test of how likely you are to get into trouble in the wilderness is how many definitions of lost you can list in a minute. If it's less than three, I see navigational difficulties in your future. If you're pooh-poohing this statement, or thinking that lost can only happen if the GPS dies, you're headed for serious difficulties--stay in areas with good cell-phone coverage!

 

I say this in all humility--I've personally been at least five kinds of lost, usually while knowing my position pretty accurately. Heck, I was once recruited to get lost on purpose so that a search-and-rescue training mission could find me for practice. They did. That was good; it was summertime in the Mojave desert.

Pooh-pooh!

 

You seem to be saying that someone who has seldom been lost in the past is most likely to be lost in the future, which is nonsense. I have plenty of experience in navigating on land and water in a variety of conditions, and have never been in a situation where I could not find my way successfully in a matter of minutes. The reason is simple--I am a total pants-and-suspenders type of person. My sailboat had a GPS, Loran, two VHF sets, two compasses, as well as every chart and piloting tool I might ever have needed. When I go in the woods, I carry, GPS, a compass (or two), a map, and a cell phone. I make trail marks. I always waypoint the car. I observe wind direction, sun position, and anything else I can think of. Most importantly, I do not go anyplace from which I am not confident that I can get out. I love Nature, but I am aware that it is always trying to kill me.

Link to comment

A good test of how likely you are to get into trouble in the wilderness is how many definitions of lost you can list in a minute. If it's less than three, I see navigational difficulties in your future. If you're pooh-poohing this statement, or thinking that lost can only happen if the GPS dies, you're headed for serious difficulties--stay in areas with good cell-phone coverage!

 

Hmmmm, lets see...

 

Lost -- I have no idea where I am, positionally, or relative to anything else. (i.e. traditional definition of lost)

Lost -- I can tell you exactly where I am, but I have no idea where where I am is (I'm at the corner of 86th and Broadway, but I have no idea where 86th and Broadway are, or I'm at N xx.xxxxxxx W xxx.xxxxxxx but where that is, I have no idea*)

Lost -- I know exactly where I am, I know exactly where I need to be, but for whatever reason I can't get there (further than reasonable to travel, like my car broke down and I'm 'lost' on the highway, or large obstacle in my way)

 

Of these only the 3rd definition of lost I think is reasonable with a properly functioning GPS that you know how to use. The only time I think this would apply is if the route you took going in wasn't suitable for going out. (too steep, too slippery, etc). As long as you keep that in mind when you're going in, you should reasonably be able to track your way back out again.

 

I've been guilty of this twice, first time was in a local park, and I was just stupid. I was following a canyon down from the top of a ridge, and didn't realize how icey it was getting, by the time I did, I was too far down to just climb back up again (although with more effort than I was willing to put it, I could have given time). Got to the bottom, and there was a river in my way (ooops)). Fortunately the river was mostly frozen, so I walked across it, and then waded the last couple of feet, but that might not have been so fun at another time of year. (GCG01Z)

 

Other time was out in a provincial park. Not quite so stupid of me, but in retrospect it could have been more obvious. The dog and I were out hiking looking for a place to plant GCPEY9, I'd decided the top of Mt. Indefatiguable would be a good place. Anyways, the trail just got too tough for Erwin going up, so we decided to turn around. Unfortunately, what I hadn't considered was that it is easier for a dog to go up a mountain than to go down. Normally when going down they need to run out a little ways to stop themselves. Well with no where to run out, he couldn't jump down where he'd jumped up in the first place...Soooooo we had to go down what for me was a much harder route, and took about 2 hours doing what had taken us about 20 minutes before.

Link to comment

Pooh-pooh!

 

You seem to be saying that someone who has seldom been lost in the past is most likely to be lost in the future, which is nonsense.

 

Nope, I'm not saying that at all. It's clear that you're very aware of all the ways you could get lost if you didn't take such excellent and extensive precautions. I'm talking about the folks who say, "I've got GPS. I know my position with near-perfect accuracy. How could I possibly get lost?!" What I meant is that there are quite a few kinds of lost, and it's not necessary to experience them to take them into account. An exhaustive list would be long, but here are a few:

  • Know own location, but not that of destination
  • Know own location and destination, but lack a feasible route
  • Know route, but have strayed from it and don't know how to regain it
  • On route, but lack ability (energy, time, skill) to complete it

...and so on. We're definitely in agreement, and I bet you could add to this list.

Link to comment

Lost -- I can tell you exactly where I am, but I have no idea where where I am is (I'm at the corner of 86th and Broadway, but I have no idea where 86th and Broadway are, or I'm at N xx.xxxxxxx W xxx.xxxxxxx but where that is, I have no idea*)

 

Forgot the funny story I meant to mention. Couple of months back, I was out looking for GCPAV2. Anyways on the way out we found a little dog that took quite a liking to Erwin. He had a collar and tags on, so I checked, and phoned the number listed on him. Of course the first question she asked was "Where are you?". I was sure she didn't want to know my lat-lons, but other than that, I really had no idea where I was, no idea what community, what street, anything (I'm sure she was really a little confused as to how the heck I got there without even knowing what community I was in).

Link to comment

Sadly, I'd say a frivolous law suit may very well be the thing that puts an end to GC, at least as we know it. How many suits with no merit actually win--like the coffee on the crotch suit (ouch)? Something like this would force Jeremy either to become very anal-retentive (taking the fun out of it) or to close the site altogether. Sad prediction, but, unfortunately, I could see it happening. Of course, I'm talking with absolutely no legal background (out my tookas, so to speak.)

Link to comment
I have a compass. It tells me were north, soth,east & west is. But like most people it doesn't do me a lot of good. There are probably less than 1% of all caches that are in what is truly a wildnerness area. Most are urban, or hidden in parks or along hiking or biking trails that are well marked.

 

If you want to hunt wilderness caches then I would expect that you are familar with the territory that comes with that. If not, then do what I do....listen to your wife. :ph34r:

 

El Diablo

 

In Vemont a great many caches are in the woods/wilderness. It is easy to lose both your signal lock and your bearings. In principle I would say that a compass would be a very good idea, I don't always take one but I think I should. When I get out of my car I try to say something like "The cache is SW of my car." and remember that. That way if I do get lost I have at least some idea which way to go back. I also (almost) always waypoint my car. For one thing just knowing that you are not totally lost is a little comforting.

Link to comment

I skip the forums for a few days and everybody jumps in with the positions that I would take. Suffice it to say that the site is clear that you take responsibility for your own actions. Terrain ratings are given. A person is free to skip caches that are rated higher than their skills. In fact, if you begin to look for a cache and you encounter an obstacle that you are unprepared for, you are free to abort the hunt.

 

It is very rare that a GPSr will break during a hunt. I've put mine through the test and never had a problem. I've dropped them in the drink; dropped them into rocks and mud; and fallen with them in my hand, thereby smashing them into rocks driven by the weight of my body. I've never broken one.

 

Strangely, I've broken three compasses while caching. They just aren't very durably, in my opinion.

 

Luckily, my GPSr has a built-in compass.

 

Naturally, I agree that some sort of ability to get yourself out of the woods is necessary. I typically just mark the position of my car and hit GOTO. I have no doubt that (absent a trail) a would not find my way out of the woods without marking my car. The simple fact that you cannot walk in a straight line because you have to dodge trees will require you to tend to wander in a circle.

 

Here's an interesting (or not) related story. The other day, my wife and I were home and it was storming. The news informed us that another storm cell was about to hit us from the west. She asked me which way was west and I wasn't sure. We've lived in this house for years.

 

My point is that when I park my car to look for a cache, I may not have a clue which direction I am going to walk to the cache. I'm just following an arrow. A compass alone will help me walk straight, but not necessarily help me find the quickest way out of nature.

Edited by sbell111
Link to comment

Lost -- I can tell you exactly where I am, but I have no idea where where I am is (I'm at the corner of 86th and Broadway, but I have no idea where 86th and Broadway are, or I'm at N xx.xxxxxxx W xxx.xxxxxxx but where that is, I have no idea*)

 

Forgot the funny story I meant to mention. Couple of months back, I was out looking for GCPAV2. Anyways on the way out we found a little dog that took quite a liking to Erwin. He had a collar and tags on, so I checked, and phoned the number listed on him. Of course the first question she asked was "Where are you?". I was sure she didn't want to know my lat-lons, but other than that, I really had no idea where I was, no idea what community, what street, anything (I'm sure she was really a little confused as to how the heck I got there without even knowing what community I was in).

 

That is funny, and exactly why I discourage the use of GPS for wilderness rescue. Fun for geocaching, though.

Link to comment
...

 

Here's an interesting (or not) related story. The other day, my wife and I were home and it was storming. The news informed us that another storm cell was about to hit us from the west. She asked me which way was west and I wasn't sure. We've lived in this house for years.

 

...

How can you live in a house for years and not know which windows the early morning sun comes in, or where to look to see the sunset?
Link to comment
...

 

Here's an interesting (or not) related story. The other day, my wife and I were home and it was storming. The news informed us that another storm cell was about to hit us from the west. She asked me which way was west and I wasn't sure. We've lived in this house for years.

 

...

How can you live in a house for years and not know which windows the early morning sun comes in, or where to look to see the sunset?

 

No doubt. I usually always know directions. Especially in the sunny daytime. If i'm in Northern California, and I usually am, I can look at the stars and know basic directions.

Link to comment

Having been following this thread from the beginning, I think that I have a better understanding now of why I reacted previously to the OP and the tone of many of the responses. I for one get sick and tired of the attitude, as Criminal once wrote, of those "who feel they must sanitize the world for all of us they consider less intelligent than themselves". I can't stand it when people feel the need to try to take everyone else by the hand as if they were small children and too stupid to look out for themselves.

 

Criminal (OK he's kind of my forum "tell it like it is" hero) summed it all up for me on a thread about someone wanting to leave his signature arrow heads in caches and the cautionary responses that followed.

 

QUOTE

You wouldn't want someone to reach in the cache and end up needing stitches...

 

QUOTE

…so those fumbling through a cache would not get a nasty surprise

 

QUOTE

…someone finds an ammo box full of stuff and puts their hand in it and starts to move things around…blah blah blah…

 

These types of responses really frost me. The people who use that as an excuse are quite sure of themselves, insofar as they would never do something so dumb as blindly rummaging through an ammo can, or mishandling a glass container, but the rest of us might. This attitude smacks of elitism that says to the world, “Please thank me for looking out for all you simpletons”. Well, from all of us simpletons, here’s a bonus sized can of shut the hell up, we don’t need you to mother the rest of us. Life is an adventure, get used to it.

 

While I appreciate the intent of the OP to have an easily accessible source for safety information, I reject the notion that we're all to stupid to take care of ourselves. My point is proved by the responses of disbelief that we would dare to so foolisly reject the wisdom and guidance offered. We all agree that safety is an important consideration. But as I said before, if you're not concerned about it, no amount of warnings or attempts at education will make any difference. You'll just have to suffer the consequences.

 

I once heard a comedian remark, "It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. There'd be a lot fewer stupid people."

Link to comment

How can you live in a house for years and not know which windows the early morning sun comes in, or where to look to see the sunset?

Apparently, pretty easily. We don't sit on the deck to watch the sunrise or sunset. Sometimes we hang out there to watch hot air balloons, but that isn't a very good directional indicator. The roads within our subdivision wind around a bit, and, while I think I know which direction is north, I'm not entirely sure.

 

Similarly, if you are geocaching and you arrive at the cache location in the middle of a cloudy day, which way is north?

Link to comment

Also, safety information will be different in different places. I'm not talking about the fact that Alaskans don't need safety info about rattlesnakes but things such as safety information concerning bears will be different in Alaska then the lower 48. Bears and bear behavior are different even with the same type of bear. So if I posted the safety info about bears, being an Alaskan, and you read it and followed it, being from the lower 48, you might make a crucial mistake. Know your own location or those you cache in and the LOCAL safety concerns.

Link to comment
As to the disclaimer, if someone were to take Groundspeak to court that disclaimer wouuld not hold up. I have seen signed waivers overridden in court even when it was blatantly the suers fault.

I am sure that if someone were to take Groundspeak to court we could arrange a hit in no time at all.

 

That's correct according to an attorney friend of mine. Despite the disclaimer they share some responsibility because they APPROVE the caches before publishing them.

 

If geocaching were a theme park I can see this. A theme park is holding out that their grounds and caches are fit for the use. Thus when they charged you an entry fee you would expect well maintained grounds, safe caches, no quicksand, or head hunters, and that the place is fit for business. Just like Disney.

 

Groundspeak and cache owners do not charge, they don't warrantee, and they are not in a position of saying "our premises" is fit for business, nor have they ever said that. There is no contract for seeking a cache.

 

In that light Idaho (among other enlightened states) if a property owner allows the use of their lands to others, as long as they do not charge for that use they are not liable for injuries to the people who take advantage of the use of the land.

 

If you look at the details, Groundspeak does not approve caches. They publish them. They do not charge for access to cache information, they charge for features that simplify life as a cache seeker. There are other examples. The bottom line is that things are not nearly as cut and dry as it might appear for liablity. Of course if things were perfectly cut and dry there would not be lawyers to begin with.

Link to comment

....I wrote the original post because I thought I was doing a good thing. Most of you do not agree. I suppose that the most important thing is that eastern Canadians and visiting cachers will have the oppurtunity to view safety information if they so choose. Thanks for the discussion.

Sharing safety information is a good thing. Making sure your friends and family are all well informed is admirable. Mandating it is another thing.

 

By way of illistration

Take a look a bug out bags on the net. If I read FEMA's (or the Department of Homeland Security) version vs. one that Criminal might put down for me on the back of a napkin. My money is on Criminals doing a better job for me in most circumstances and having less crap.

Link to comment

....I wrote the original post because I thought I was doing a good thing. Most of you do not agree. I suppose that the most important thing is that eastern Canadians and visiting cachers will have the oppurtunity to view safety information if they so choose. Thanks for the discussion.

Sharing safety information is a good thing. Making sure your friends and family are all well informed is admirable. Mandating it is another thing.

 

By way of illistration

Take a look a bug out bags on the net. If I read FEMA's (or the Department of Homeland Security) version vs. one that Criminal might put down for me on the back of a napkin. My money is on Criminals doing a better job for me in most circumstances and having less crap.

 

If you read a few paragraphs above the one you quoted, I clearly state that it would not be MANDATORY.

 

Sorry don't understand your illistration. I'm Canadian eh! :ph34r:

Link to comment

KO, I get ya now. What Item? Here is the NS checklist.

Emergency Preparedness Checklist

I'll give you a hint. It's not on this list that you posted, but a variation of it is on this list.

 

I am quite happy with the NS list. I have added a portable gas generator to the list, I can't think of anything extra from your list that I would need.

 

The NS list is more of an emergency list rather than a disaster list.

Link to comment

At an introduction to geocaching event earlier this year we hid two caches nearby. Later, I was helping a family of four with the basics of using a GPSr and explaining what geocaching was all about. I walked with them to find the first cache, which was about 35 feet in from the edge of the woods. As we approached the edge of the woods one of the parents refered to the woods and said, "Now this is a little scary."

 

They were obviously completely not used to being in the great outdoors. Afterwards I was a little worried that they'd go off to find a cache the next week and get themselves lost. Before they left I made sure to point out the cache ratings and that they might want to start out looking for caches that were marked as easy and along well established trails.

 

So far I haven't seen them turn up on the evening news, which is good.

 

"If all your friends were named Cliff, would you jump off them?"

Link to comment

KO, I get ya now. What Item? Here is the NS checklist.

Emergency Preparedness Checklist

I'll give you a hint. It's not on this list that you posted, but a variation of it is on this list.

 

I am quite happy with the NS list. I have added a portable gas generator to the list, I can't think of anything extra from your list that I would need.

 

The NS list is more of an emergency list rather than a disaster list.

Actually, there are several things I would consider essential that are not on either Canadian list.

Once is cash. Real money, in small bills. In many emergency situations, power and communications are the first to go. Without those 2 things, credit cards are just scraps of plastic.

The other biggie is self defense/personal protection items. Even if you happen to be prepared, you need to be able to keep someone(s) from just taking the stuff from you.

I think the real point is, everyone has a different opinion of what precautions need to be taken, and no person or warning label can possibly cover it all, especially for another person. Would you like the cache pages to recommend carrying a firearm while caching? Lot's of cachers consider that a "don't leave home without it" item.

Link to comment
The NS list is more of an emergency list rather than a disaster list.

Actually, there are several things I would consider essential that are not on either Canadian list.

Once is cash. Real money, in small bills. In many emergency situations, power and communications are the first to go. Without those 2 things, credit cards are just scraps of plastic.

The other biggie is self defense/personal protection items. Even if you happen to be prepared, you need to be able to keep someone(s) from just taking the stuff from you.

I think the real point is, everyone has a different opinion of what precautions need to be taken, and no person or warning label can possibly cover it all, especially for another person. Would you like the cache pages to recommend carrying a firearm while caching? Lot's of cachers consider that a "don't leave home without it" item.

 

The NS list does mention cash, right after spare car keys.

 

September 2003, Hurricane Juan (google it) passed directly over Halifax (pop. ~ 250,000). Power was out to much of the area for 7 days. My power was out for 6. There was a lot of damage from the storm. There was very little damage as a result of looting or vandalism. Two people died. One was a first responder who saved someone. There were no gunshots heard. I do not recall any break ins reported. Granted there must have been some trouble, but I do not think there was any more thannormal. Nobody was shot (good guy or bad guy). We all just got on with cleaning up and helping our neighbours. I am sure that our situation is not unique. Here only the Police and some of the bad guys have hand guns. Here we need to work on getting them out of the bad guys hands. Stronger penalties. Just MHO. Please do not jump on me about hand guns. I have no opinion on what you do south of the border. Not my business.

Edited by Plasma Boy
Link to comment

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Followers 8
×
×
  • Create New...