Commercialism And Ethics Question

[+Team LaLonde]

I planned on placing a cache on a bike path that runs near the restaurant that my wife manages. When the restaurant owners found out they were excited and wanted to contribute gift certificates to put in the cache. Is this acceptable? Something doesn't feel right about it.

[+VegasCacheHounds]

I planned on placing a cache on a bike path that runs near the restaurant that my wife manages. When the restaurant owners found out they were excited and wanted to contribute gift certificates to put in the cache. Is this acceptable? Something doesn't feel right about it.

 

Well, often I've heard if something doesn't feel right, its for a reason, but with this situation I don't see a problem. Some might, but they're just whiners

[Jeremy]

As long as it isn't overtly commercial (meaning the cache details aren't dedicated to promoting the restaurant) it should be ok. In that case it's just a convenient prize for the find. I'd be happy to find a Starbucks gift card in a cache.

 

(edit: ok, maybe not an empty Starbucks gift card)

Edited March 31, 2006 by Jeremy

[+Team LaLonde]

I planned on placing a cache on a bike path that runs near the restaurant that my wife manages. When the restaurant owners found out they were excited and wanted to contribute gift certificates to put in the cache. Is this acceptable? Something doesn't feel right about it.

 

Well, often I've heard if something doesn't feel right, its for a reason, but with this situation I don't see a problem. Some might, but they're just whiners

 

Maybe I'll place it a few hundred yards away so it's doesn't look so commercial? Seem like a fair compromise?

[+entropysedge]

As long as it isn't overtly commercial (meaning the cache details aren't dedicated to promoting the restaurant) it should be ok. In that case it's just a convenient prize for the find. I'd be happy to find a Starbucks gift card in a cache.

 

(edit: ok, maybe not an empty Starbucks gift card)

 

Starbucks gift card makes a nice FTF prize!

[+ranger-rob]

I planned on placing a cache on a bike path that runs near the restaurant that my wife manages. When the restaurant owners found out they were excited and wanted to contribute gift certificates to put in the cache. Is this acceptable? Something doesn't feel right about it.

 

As long as the cache isn't there solely to promote the business, put it on their property if they'll let you. There are a number of caches located in parks that have an entrance fee. If that's acceptable then there shouldn't be an issue. Also, look at the number of caches that are located in and around malls and shopping centers. Again, if those are "legal", yours should be too.

 

If your container is located where it's retrievable without disrupting the business and no money is required to change hands in order to retrieve it, I don't see a problem. A plus to this is that the permission issues are covered.

[+Team_Talisman]

I work in a small town for the towns parks department. Even though I knew I could probally hide caches, but politeness I was descussion it with higher ups.

 

Our Hot Springs pool manager whe geocached in Virginia ask me how many caches I was going to put out. I told him 12 to 15 between now and Jan 1 2007. Some would be micro, some mini and most traditional.

 

He said for each mini and traditional he would issue me two free one day passes for the FTF prizes.

 

I gladly accepted> I had know idea that any one on our towns workforce knew about geocaching...

[Cape Cod Cacher]

HEY ! NOOBZ!

 

Jeremey said 'cool' ....

As close to Word of God as you can get in the game.

[+Packanack]

I see you are from Ispheming, nothing even remotely nefarious happens in the UP, go for it.

Graduated NMU, would ja know, aye.

 

For those who have never been there it is a beautiful place.

[+Colorado Cacher]

As long as it isn't overtly commercial (meaning the cache details aren't dedicated to promoting the restaurant) it should be ok. In that case it's just a convenient prize for the find. I'd be happy to find a Starbucks gift card in a cache.

 

(edit: ok, maybe not an empty Starbucks gift card)

 

Gold or Platinum Jeremy?

[+Team LaLonde]

I see you are from Ispheming, nothing even remotely nefarious happens in the UP, go for it.

Graduated NMU, would ja know, aye.

 

For those who have never been there it is a beautiful place.

 

Holy wah! Don't go givin' out da secrets of da U.P.! We like it dis way! Go Wildcats!

 

Kidding aside, I moved here from Detroit about three years ago and wouldn't trade my life for anything. We have thousands of acres of wilderness all around us. Thanks everyone for all the advice. Tomorrow I will plant that cache.

[+belair56]

Great idea, I've done caches near a commercial establishment and mentioned it in the posting of the cache.

[+Deliveryguy428]

Funny I thought in Seattle you found your own Starbucks store in a cache.....

 

I know many people who use food coupons for first to find prizes and such and the cache is near that place but they never mention or promote the place in the cache page.

[funinthealps]

Der ain't no Starbucks up der in da U.P. don cha know. Only dem der whitetail bucks. Butcha know dey taste better. Anywho, I tinks if youse guys had onea dem pasty cuepons in da catch itta be heckuva neat ting eh? Goh Cahts! N.M.U. class of ninety tree ubetcha. Keep yer stick on da ice eh!

[+Team LaLonde]

Der ain't no Starbucks up der in da U.P. don cha know. Only dem der whitetail bucks. Butcha know dey taste better. Anywho, I tinks if youse guys had onea dem pasty cuepons in da catch itta be heckuva neat ting eh? Goh Cahts! N.M.U. class of ninety tree ubetcha. Keep yer stick on da ice eh!

 

Au contraire mon ami! The front page of the Mining Journal had an article that proclaimed the coming of a Starbucks to Marquette. This is one of those cases where progress isn't really progress. The local economy can't sustain several locally owned coffee shops and a Starbucks, too. Besides, now I'll have to CITO those dang cups. Que sera, sera.

 

BTW, pasty coupons are a great idea!

[+sbell111]

... Besides, now I'll have to CITO those dang cups. ...

Locals who buy coffee at local shops don't litter, but the same people drinking Starbucks coffee do litter?

[+Renegade Knight]

I planned on placing a cache on a bike path that runs near the restaurant that my wife manages. When the restaurant owners found out they were excited and wanted to contribute gift certificates to put in the cache. Is this acceptable? Something doesn't feel right about it.

 

This is fine. Especially since the resteraunt will probably help watch and maintain the cache. As Jeremy said, the point is that the cache itself is non commercial.

[funinthealps]

... Besides, now I'll have to CITO those dang cups. ...

Locals who buy coffee at local shops don't litter, but the same people drinking Starbucks coffee do litter?

 

I think what he means is that people who don't care about supporting the local business owners and do not care about supporting the LOCAL economy generally do not care about the environment as well.

 

Personally I think that "these types" suffer from an existential void in their life and buy into the images that the huge marketing firms portray for their corporate clients. In other words, the mere presence of the Starbucks cup in their hand, they feel, gives them the status of some hip and trendy socialite. "These types" have been easyly fooled to believe that they are above the person next to them holding the cup that reads "Joe Maki's Coffee Shop". They are so caught up in the shallowness of their own existence that they cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment.

 

So to answer your question, yes, the Starbucks type ARE "more likely" to litter. Because, let's face it, Starbucks coffee doesn't really tase that good.

[+sbell111]

I think what he means is that people who don't care about supporting the local business owners and do not care about supporting the LOCAL economy generally do not care about the environment as well.

 

Personally I think that "these types" suffer from an existential void in their life and buy into the images that the huge marketing firms portray for their corporate clients. In other words, the mere presence of the Starbucks cup in their hand, they feel, gives them the status of some hip and trendy socialite. "These types" have been easyly fooled to believe that they are above the person next to them holding the cup that reads "Joe Maki's Coffee Shop". They are so caught up in the shallowness of their own existence that they cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment.

 

So to answer your question, yes, the Starbucks type ARE "more likely" to litter. Because, let's face it, Starbucks coffee doesn't really tase that good.

 

Wow. That's quite a generalization.

 

I happen to like a nice mocha on the way into work. The coffee's good and they have a drive-in, so I frequently stop at Starbucks. I guess that makes me unconcerned about my town's economy or environment. Further, it makes me a shallow human being with a void in my soul.

 

[funinthealps]

I think what he means is that people who don't care about supporting the local business owners and do not care about supporting the LOCAL economy generally do not care about the environment as well.

 

Personally I think that "these types" suffer from an existential void in their life and buy into the images that the huge marketing firms portray for their corporate clients. In other words, the mere presence of the Starbucks cup in their hand, they feel, gives them the status of some hip and trendy socialite. "These types" have been easyly fooled to believe that they are above the person next to them holding the cup that reads "Joe Maki's Coffee Shop". They are so caught up in the shallowness of their own existence that they cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment.

 

So to answer your question, yes, the Starbucks type ARE "more likely" to litter. Because, let's face it, Starbucks coffee doesn't really tase that good.

 

Wow. That's quite a generalization.

 

I happen to like a nice mocha on the way into work. The coffee's good and they have a drive-in, so I frequently stop at Starbucks. I guess that makes me unconcerned about my town's economy or environment. Further, it makes me a shallow human being with a void in my soul.

 

 

Take note of the quotated "more likely". You created your own generalization...

[+The Leprechauns]

White males with a caffeine problem are more likely to make sweeping generalizations. And also to have their posts ignored.

[+sbell111]

Take note of the quotated "more likely". You created your own generalization...

You only added 'more likely' regarding litter. Your other sentences points were that Sarbucks drinkers don't care about local business, local economy, and therefore generally about the environment.

 

You also stated your belief that SBUX users suffer from an existential void in their life and are sheep to marketing firms. You stated that people drink this coffee only for status. (I'm personally a big fan of the caffeine.)

 

You stated that these drinkers are so shallow that they 'cannot possibly be aware' of their surroundings or the environment and are, therefore, litterers.

 

I'd say that your logic is flawed, but you apparently didn't attempt to use any.

[Jeremy]

 

Take note of the quotated "more likely". You created your own generalization...

 

Not really. You indicated your own bias, made a generalization about Starbucks coffee drinkers, and applied some puzzling conclusion that they are more prone to litter because they like bad coffee. Not only was it a generalization but circular reasoning.

[+sbell111]

White males with a caffeine problem are more likely to make sweeping generalizations. And also to have their posts ignored.

May name is Steve and I'm a caffeinoholic.

 

Be nice to me. Caffeine withdrawal is a mental disorder. If I miss my coffee and snap, I have a nice defense all figured out.

 

EDIT: I don't know why I responded, he'll never see it.

Edited April 5, 2006 by sbell111

[+Munin]

Personally I think that "these types" suffer from an existential void in their life and buy into the images that the huge marketing firms portray for their corporate clients. In other words, the mere presence of the Starbucks cup in their hand, they feel, gives them the status of some hip and trendy socialite. "These types" have been easyly fooled to believe that they are above the person next to them holding the cup that reads "Joe Maki's Coffee Shop". They are so caught up in the shallowness of their own existence that they cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment.

Whoa there, pardner - you best be careful gittin' down off that there horse yer ridin'...that critter's so danged high that yer like to twist an ankle on the dismount.

 

Not sure 'bout your neck of the woods, but when I CITO around here the number of beer bottles, beer cans, beer boxes, and other assorted booze containers dwarfs the number of soda bottles, water bottles, and fast-food wrappers, which in turn dwarf the number of discarded coffee cups from any establishment. If you're gonna run Starbucks out of town on a rail because of litter, you best get a really long rail so you've got room to add in every fast-food joint, soda-selling convenience store, and purveyor of pre-packaged alcoholic beverages.

 

I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide whether hauling a 36-pack of cheap beer up to the top of a scenic overlook, getting plastered, and tossing the cans all over the place is a sign of someone "caught up in the shallowness of their own existence" who "cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment". And whether such a person is better than, worse than, or just as big a PITA as anyone else who's unable to master the use of the trash can.

[funinthealps]

Personally I think that "these types" suffer from an existential void in their life and buy into the images that the huge marketing firms portray for their corporate clients. In other words, the mere presence of the Starbucks cup in their hand, they feel, gives them the status of some hip and trendy socialite. "These types" have been easyly fooled to believe that they are above the person next to them holding the cup that reads "Joe Maki's Coffee Shop". They are so caught up in the shallowness of their own existence that they cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment.

Whoa there, pardner - you best be careful gittin' down off that there horse yer ridin'...that critter's so danged high that yer like to twist an ankle on the dismount.

 

Not sure 'bout your neck of the woods, but when I CITO around here the number of beer bottles, beer cans, beer boxes, and other assorted booze containers dwarfs the number of soda bottles, water bottles, and fast-food wrappers, which in turn dwarf the number of discarded coffee cups from any establishment. If you're gonna run Starbucks out of town on a rail because of litter, you best get a really long rail so you've got room to add in every fast-food joint, soda-selling convenience store, and purveyor of pre-packaged alcoholic beverages.

 

I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to decide whether hauling a 36-pack of cheap beer up to the top of a scenic overlook, getting plastered, and tossing the cans all over the place is a sign of someone "caught up in the shallowness of their own existence" who "cannot possibly be aware of their true surroundings or the environment". And whether such a person is better than, worse than, or just as big a PITA as anyone else who's unable to master the use of the trash can.

 

Yes, Jeremy, my reasoning is a bit hasty and is flawed. I never intended my comment to become such a debate on logic and reasoning. The REAL motavation behind the comment was due to my connection with the great Upper Peninsula of Michigan community that the OP was writing about.

 

My bias is toward the small business owners who will surely go out of business when Starbucks opens in the community. Marquette Michigan, where I spent the first 6 years of my higher education, is one of the few unique places left in this country. We can talk about free-enterprise, competition, and freedom of choice, but the fact of the matter is that it would really be sad if every single community in this country consisted of a Starbucks, a Wallmart, a Barns and Nobel, a McDonalds, and a Citgo.

 

You're right, it is not my place to make generalizations about the people who support Starbucks. Although it may not have been understood by some readers the half-truths of my statements, I will go on record saying that my reasoning is flawed by ulterior motives and was bias.

 

With that said, "running every fast food joint and liquor store out of town on a rail" wouldn't be the answer either. Munin is right that the amount of beer bottles and fast food wrappers do dwarf the number of Starbucks cups out on the trail. Just like "guns don't kill people" the root of the problem is the people.

 

On the bright side I picture an Indian chief with a tear rolling down his cheek and remember how many litterbugs there were in the 70's. The litter problem was much worse back then. I hope the litter problem of tomorrow decreases but the variety of the wrappers and lables stays the same.

 

Sorry if I offended anyone. I'm going to look for a few tupperware containers and pick up some trash.

 

Funinthealps

[+caderoux]

If it makes you feel any better, all the big chains are struggling in New Orleans, while the small operations are coming back strong. It seems that the loyalty of the workforce, the nimbleness and the flexibility of smaller businesses to get open and stay open has beat the larger competition to market.

 

Most of the SBUX here are still shuttered.

 

As far as litter, thanks to the Corps, we've been having an ongoing CITO since last September - you can always come down and join in and we have a geocaching-specific CITO event next Saturday in conjuctions with the Katrina Krewe.