What Waas Birds Are You Seeing?

[planewood]

When answering this, try to cover -

1) For each WAAS satellites

...a-- what satellite number does your GPSr show

...b-- what position in sky

...c-- hollow bar or solid bar

4) your location

5) your GPSr make & model

6) are d's showing

 

With me it is:

#35, mid horizon ESE, hollow bar

Near Houston TX,

Garmin 60cx (with elevated antenna),

d's showed for a few hours a few days ago. #35 showed at WSW when I got the d's.

 

I'll try to make a table, by user name, and post occasionally

Edited March 29, 2006 by planewood

[Inforit]

When answering this, try to cover -

1) For each WAAS satellites

...a-- what satellite number does your GPSr show

...b-- what position in sky

...c-- hollow bar or solid bar

4) your location

5) your GPSr make & model

6) are d's showing

 

With me it is:

#35, mid horizon ESE, hollow bar

Near Houston TX,

Garmin 60cx (with elevated antenna),

d's showed for a few hours a few days ago. #35 showed at WSW when I got the d's.

 

I'll try to make a table, by user name, and post occasionally

 

Do not see any with my 60cx. Although when I was playing around with it when I first bought it, which was like two weeks ago I had WAAS, just do not recall which ones they were.

[dfred]

0) Time was 17:00UTC today.

 

1) #33, low ESE, Hollow

Fairly good signal and got 'D's for some sats, but this is an EGNOS sat and

data is pretty worthless here in the US.

 

#35, extremely low, SW I did just barely get a signal on #35 with fairly good

SW visibility, very weak signal. After a few more days I doubt I'll see this sat from this

location again.

 

4) 45N 85W

 

5) Garmin 60CSx, 2.62 beta

 

6) See above.

 

Eagerly waiting for #38 to come online. According to a GPS World article posted in another thread it should be coming up in test mode any day now... Here's the link GPSlug posted in that other thread: http://www.gpsworld.com/gpsworld/article/a...l.jsp?id=315523

[+drbugs]

a-- WAAS Sat 35

b-- Usually south east, about 30 degrees el. Last week was in south west, 30 degrees el.

c-- hollow bar, normally very strong signal (4 or so)

4) Minneapolis, MN

5) Garmin 60cx

6) usually not, but last week yes (when sat 35 was shown in SW)

 

this week no waas, and 35 is in the SE again.

[+Puddlewalkers]

I am in Mpls and saw 35 last week with D's across the board. I have seen 35 most of this week, but no error correction. I think they are testing them (whoever they are). Apparently they are playing musical satelites up there (where ever that is).

[+weakfish]

No solid locks on any WAAS birds....

Intermittant "hollow" locks on 33, 35 and 48.... with 48 being the most often seen, and not all that often...

I really hope a bird goes "full-time live" for the East Coast US soon... There's gonna be a whole lotta ticked off fishermen in the next month that depend on WAAS correction if we don't get a live bird soon.

[Neo_Geo]

I get 2 WAAS birds!

 

Primary:

...a-- 33

...b-- ESE - very low - about 15º above the horizon.

...c-- hollow bar

4) Washington, DC area

5) 60Cx

6) d's are showing

 

Secondary:

...a-- 35 (Only occasionally and flashes intermittently!)

...b-- SSE - about 40º above the horizon

...c-- hollow bar

4) Washington, DC area

5) 60Cx

6) NO d's showing - flashes on and off so quickly, no time to get any corrections!

[Photobuff]

Forgive my not paying attention, but I powered up my Magellan 210 for the first time in a few weeks today, and was surprised that I couldn't get a WAAS position at all. Last summer it was never an issue. Today I had a medium strength solid bar on one, but never got the WAAS indicator. Bummer. OTOH, getting 7 or 8 standard birds was no problem, and the estimated error was around 23' in the moving car. Overall, not terribly impressive compared to what I'm used to. (Rochester, NY)

[Neo_Geo]

Forgive my not paying attention, but I powered up my Magellan 210 for the first time in a few weeks today, and was surprised that I couldn't get a WAAS position at all.

WAAS satellites are being repositioned in space. During the transition, some people are getting correction data while others aren't. Nobody is actually getting a solid lock on them for positional data right now.

[+fizzymagic]

WAAS satellites are being repositioned in space.

Only one satellite is being repositioned.

 

During the transition, some people are getting correction data while others aren't.

Everyone is receiving the same data. Different manufacturers handle the data differently.

 

Nobody is actually getting a solid lock on them for positional data right now.

As above, only one WAAS satellite is moving. The ranging data for the other active satellites is perfectly fine.

 

I always encourage people not to post information about these kinds of things unless they are completely sure it is accurate.

Edited March 31, 2006 by fizzymagic

[peter]

As above, only one WAAS satellite is moving. The ranging data for the other active satellites is perfectly fine.

 

I always encourage people not to post information about these kinds of things unless they are completely sure it is accurate.

Not sure what you're counting as an 'active satellite,' but the two new WAAS birds (PRNs 125 & 135) are still undergoing testing. During this time they've sometimes been sending correction and ranging data and sometimes only the correction data. In addition, some units in the eastern US are picking up PRN 120 (Garmin #33) which is not a WAAS bird but ESTB (EGNOS test bed) and that one frequently doesn't provide ranging data. And then there's the moving one you mention (PRN 122) which is just about at its new location.

 

So it's not surprising that people have been seeing more hollow bars (indicating a lack of ranging data) than usual.

[_Kai]

AOR-E March Scheduled Broadcast for March 2006:

http://ravel.esrin.esa.it/docs/egnos/estb/schedule.htm

[+GPSlug]

I'm currently tracking 4 WAAS and 12 GPS (plus 1 OmniSTAR) on a NovAtel ProPak-LB.

 

122 (35): Seems to be just about done moving. Velocity is down to under 3 meters per second which is close to the normal orbital wobble. It had been up over 10 m/s during the move. Good corrections. Still doesn't report a good enough position for useful ranging.

 

134 (46): All is well. Has been showing a good enough position for ranging for the past couple of days.

 

135 (47): Good corrections, not good enough position for ranging. In test mode but WAAS has a track record of being good in test mode. The data is coming from the same source as the operational GEOs, so go ahead and use it as long as it isn't for safety-of-life.

 

123 (36): Was missing for a few days but has been back for the last hour or so. No useful data coming out of it except the fact it's in test mode. 135 reports 123 has bad health so it doesn't show on the plot.

 

[+PDOP's]

Not as detailed as GPSlug's screen shot but this is what I'm seeing this afternoon. PRN 122 and 135 (35 and 48) are in the SSW at about 27-29° elevation

 

[+hardwire]

GPSlug, I like your stuff!

[+EraSeek]

1) 35

...a-- 35

...b-- ssw at maybe 40 degrees or so

...c-- hollow bar, and will be till ranging kicks in again

 

2) 47

...a-- 47

...b-- wsw nearer the horizon

...c-- solid bar

 

4) North of Seattle, Wa

5) Garmin map76

6) are d's showing, YES

 

I was reading that the ranging on the WAAS sats are not up to par with the normal GPS sats, so maybe its better just using them for corrections and not ranging anyway.

[+boxochalk]

Not as detailed as GPSlug's screen shot but this is what I'm seeing this afternoon. PRN 122 and 135 (35 and 48) are in the SSW at about 27-29° elevation

 

 

This post prompts me to ask two questions.

 

First, how do you get these great screen captures?

 

Second, where do I go to find out more about the satellite page on my 60CSx? The manual makes no mention of hollow bars vs filled bars, WAAS satellites vs std, or whatever it is that the "D" means.

 

OK, three questions... How do I know if a satellite is a WAAS? It seems that they are the larger numbers, but there must be a chart available somewhere.

 

I have had my GPSr for about a month, and I obviously have a lot to learn about it still.

Edited April 1, 2006 by boxochalk

[planewood]

GPSlug, I like your stuff!

 

Ya aught to get one of those units. They only cost about $5500 US dollars. They provide somewhere in the 10 cm accuracy range.

[Twilight Error]

 

This post prompts me to ask two questions.

 

First, how do you get these great screen captures?

The XImage utility allows you to get a screenshot of whatever the unit is displaying. It saves the file as a .bmp, which you can then convert to .jpg (if required), upload to a photo hosting website, such as Smugmug and link to from here.

 

Second, where do I go to find out more about the satellite page on my 60CSx? The manual makes no mention of hollow bars vs filled bars, WAAS satellites vs std, or whatever it is that the "D" means.

Here.

Solid bars = good data the unit is using to calculate postiton.

Hollow bars = signal is being recieved, but not used for calculations.

D's = differential correction. The signals take time to travel through the atmosphere, this can vary depending on many factors. Differential Correction is an analysis of the signal offset and is broadcast to any reciever capable of using it. The reciever uses differential to adjust the timing information recived from the satellites.

 

OK, three questions... How do I know if a satellite is a WAAS? It seems that they are the larger numbers, but there must be a chart available somewhere.

 

I have had my GPSr for about a month, and I obviously have a lot to learn about it still.

 

I dunno about a chart, but generally anything with a number higher than 30 on a Garmin unit is WAAS.

[+PDOP's]

Second, where do I go to find out more about the satellite page on my 60CSx? The manual makes no mention of hollow bars vs filled bars, WAAS satellites vs std, or whatever it is that the "D" means.

 

Twilight Error did a good job of answering your questions. Here's more information on how to get WAAS working on your Garmin by Dale DePriest. I've heard that the x series with the SirfIII chipset will not use the WAAS sats for ranging (location) so you may never see solid bars on them.

[+Woodbutcher68]

My Meriplat says that it's WAAS enabled, but I haven't seen any.

[+Marcie/Eric]

My Meriplat says that it's WAAS enabled, but I haven't seen any.

 

On the sat screen, they will show up as a lowercase 'w'. I'm not sure if it shows a number and a bar for it on the bottom (i'm thinking no), but I have 2 w's on my screen right now.

[+Woodbutcher68]

I saw a chart that said that the Waas birds were numbered above 30 . The highest number I've seen is 29.

[+GPSlug]

GPS satellites are 1-32 (although #32 was only used briefly a long time ago). SBAS (e.g. WAAS) satellites are officially 120-138, but Garmin subtracts 87 from that for display purposes.

[+PDOP's]

... but Garmin subtracts 87 from that for display purposes.

 

Is this only a Garmin system or the NMEA convention too?

 

The NMEA standard WAAS labels are used by Garmin receivers. This system maps the PRN number to the NMEA label by subtracting 87 from the PRN number. (source: EGNOS help desk)

quoted from GPSInformation.org

[pyt22fr]

WAAS/EGNOS satellites that I have seen so far :

 

1) List of the birds

 

#33 very regularly when GPSr heading south, strong signal, south, usually hollow, maybe solid sometimes (that would be so when d's showing ? Have to check it)

#35 sometimes but briefly, don't remember where exactly, hollow

#37 sometimes but briefly, don't remember where exactly, hollow

#39 sometimes, strong signal, don't remember where exactly, hollow

 

4) located in western France, Europe

 

5) Garmin 60CSx

 

6) Have seen d's showing with #33 for sure, and probably with #39 also.

 

Sorry for the lack of accuracy.

 

pyt22fr

[+Woodbutcher68]

Picked up # 30 today and showed a "w" on the screen. It showed due West of my location. (Just South of Chicago) I also showed another "w" under the E on the satellite screen, even when there were no birds showing in that location. Sometimes it was highlighted, sometimes it wasn't. Maybe a bird to the East of me, but just off the screen?

At least I now know that Waas is working.

(Didn't find the cache I was looking for, cause it started raining too hard before I got there.)

[+GPSlug]

135 (47) has just set itself unhealthy and gone away again.

[+PDOP's]

135 (47) has just set itself unhealthy and gone away again.

 

So what's 122(35) saying? It's been stationary for a few days but still no ranging signals.

[planewood]

135 (47) has just set itself unhealthy and gone away again.

 

So what's 122(35) saying? It's been stationary for a few days but still no ranging signals.

 

Pdop -

 

Not getting 35 here near Houston today. I read somewhere that they would be testing for 2 or 3 months after in the new position.

[+GPSlug]

So what's 122(35) saying? It's been stationary for a few days but still no ranging signals.

Still there, still not good enough position for ranging.

[HOGCAT]

I get 35 good here in S Cal. Inside a steel building!!! Edited April 5, 2006 by HOGCAT

[+PDOP's]

PRN 135 (48) is back but still no ranging signals from it or 122 (35)

 

[planewood]

PRN 135 (48) is back but still no ranging signals from it or 122 (35)

 

 

I've been seeing 35 all day but no D's.

[flir67]

on my explorist 600 , I haven't been able to get waas in over a week,before that it was on and off alot since they were moving them . the best I can get is 20 feet epe now

[+Red90]

I still never seem to see 48. 35 and 47 OK most of the time.

 

 

Calgary, Canada

iQue 3600 with Gilsson antenna

Edited April 8, 2006 by Red90

[planewood]

I still never seem to see 48. 35 and 47 OK most of the time.

 

 

Calgary, Canada

iQue 3600 with Gilsson antenna

 

Now that's odd. All day today 35 has been showing as a flashing hollow bar in the ESE (I'm near Houston). Yet for you it's showing in the SW position???

 

I've only seen it show in the WSW position one day in the past 30 days and that was the only day I was getting d's.

 

Does that mean that 35 is not broadcasting an almanac? The Garmin 'x' series must be looking for something that 35 is not currently broadcasting. Some people have said that 35 is not broadcasting 'ranging' data, but is sending corrections.

 

Whether I have waas enabled or disabled, seeing 35 or not seeing 35, seems to make no difference in accuracy for me.

[+Red90]

35 (Inmarsat 3 f4) is at 142.0°W which should be SW for both of us. Location seems correct for me.

 

http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/inmar3f4.html

[planewood]

35 (Inmarsat 3 f4) is at 142.0°W which should be SW for both of us. Location seems correct for me.

 

http://www.lyngsat.com/tracker/inmar3f4.html

 

Red -

 

I know it's now at 142°W, but here is what my 60cx has been saying all along.

 

[+GOT GPS?]

The old position of sat 35, is stuck in memory, and will require a firmware update, to remove it from memory, and it might be in a memory on the SiRF chip itself.

[+Red90]

Yes, from what I understand the Cx units are not working with the moving WAAS sats.

[+EScout]

Sat 35 is showing in the correct place, now west of SoCalif on all my GPSrs. For my Garmin Legend (original), all I had to do was go to the Satellite page and select new location, click on my location on the map and leave it on outside and within 5 minutes, 35 moved to its current location. I would guess that you can do the same with other Garmins. Try turning the unit on where you get no satellite reception, select location, and then go outside.

Edited April 9, 2006 by EScout

[+PDOP's]

Planewood

 

Have you tried doing a reset on your 60Cx?

 

The following was posted on one of the GPS news groups today. I don't know if it's accurate but it offers an explanation for what you're seeing.

 

Messge Type 17 is the SBAS almanac message. Currently the almanac

being broadcast by the two operational WAAS GEOs only includes the

almanac data for those two GEOs. The new Panamsat Galaxy-15 GEO is

operating in Test Mode with corrections broadcast. The almanac that

Galaxy is broadcasting contains the almanac information for the two new

GEOs and the two operational GEOs. The new Telsat ANIK-F1R GEO is

currently only broadcasting Message Type 0 with all zero contents (Test

Mode without corrections). When it does broadcast an almanac it will

be the same as Galaxy-15.

 

This means that depending on how the receiver manufacturer wrote their

search software, a receiver that is already locked onto one of the

operational GEOs may not bother searching for the new GEOs that are

still in test mode unless it is cold started.

[+Red90]

No, there is a problem with the software in the Cx and CSx that are not allowing 35 to read properly.

[planewood]

No, there is a problem with the software in the Cx and CSx that are not allowing 35 to read properly.

 

But 35 did show in the WSW on one day and on that day I was getting d's. Before and after that day, it was/is showing ESE and no d's.

 

I just tried "Use with GPS Off" and "Change Location" / "Automatic" and that didn't help. Still showing same. Also changed location to about 600 miles north and got same results.

 

How do you do a hard reset on the 60cx? And, is there any danger in doing that?

[+Red90]

How do you do a hard reset on the 60cx? And, is there any danger in doing that?

 

http://www.gpsinformation.org/dale/secret.htm

 

enter + page + power was for the 60C so I assume it is the same.

[+W.]

Sometimes I see hollow #33 (EGNOS) around here. "Here" being Latvia, Eastern Europe. Can't tell satellite's location though, never paid attention Signal is jumpy and only on rare ocasions I get some Ds. Unit - Garmin iQue 3200 with built-in antenna mounted on dash of my car most of the time.

 

#33 is located at SW, just checked while driving home.

Edited April 19, 2006 by W.