I Went Bm Hunting For The 1st Time

[+woody_k]

Armed with 17 benchmarks to look for,I took off on the motorcycle.

 

Found 5.

 

One thing I noticed is that besides the coords being so far off ( I already knew that) the descriptions are off sometimes. Either the description was for a different disk or the area had changed so much that the stuctures, landmarks or other things are no longer there.

 

For example the description said XX feet south of powerpole #####. There isn't a powerpole in sight!!! Or at the base of a RR signal. No overhead signal. And another said at the base of a RR signal with a catwalk.

 

I also figured out that I had better do a search before the next time I leave if I don't know what specific landmark item they are mentioning is....such as a sephamore box.

 

Part of this area is in the midst of big time housing construction. One description led me to an area of this construction and I stepped off the measurements. It led me to a 6 foot high pile of dirt.

 

I also found a survey marker pole and I dug a bit and didn't find the benchmark. This one was outside a pipline station. I did have a page with a similiar description but that one was about a mile away. I don't think the coords were off that much.

 

Anyway still new at BM hunting and learned a few things today.

[mloser]

Woody,

Yep, the coords are just to get you near the disk. They are created by using a map and scaling the coordinates off it, so they could be subject to a number of errors, including simply human error. For scaled benchmarks we just use the coords to get near it, then use the description to finish the hunt.

 

The powerpoles are often gone, or at least renumbered. Sometimes they are reliable and sometimes not. You need to look at the rest of the description and hope there is enough to use to find the mark. Railroad signals have been known to be removed, or moved. In the "good ol' days" trains were slower so signals were closer together. As train speeds increased some railroads changed their signals to allow time between the faster trains. Or they removed the signals on little-used lines to make them "dark"--operated by train order only. Any number of things may have occured to prevent you from finding that signal. However, often the signal itself was removed but the base remains. That will be harder to find than an obvious signal, but can still be located with some hunting. As for one with a catwalk, I would guess that would be what is known as a signal bridge--a lattice structure that spanned multiple tracks, usuall 3 or more, to allow signals for all the tracks (2 track lines can have signals at the outer sides of the tracks... how do you signal the middle track of 3 tracks? Signal bridge!) Again, it may be gone but the bases may remain.

 

Research is often a vital part of a benchmark hunt. One thing to do is to always take copies of the datasheets with you, paper or paperless, whichever way you choose. Then you don't need to rely on your memory to find a mark. Almost every time I have done that I have failed, even with ones I thought I had cold.

 

6 foot pile of dirt? That happens. Construction destroys many marks, whether it is road widening, new bridge construction, or urban sprawl. There is nothing we can do about it.

 

If there was a witness post there was probably a marker. There are no hard rules about how far or what distance you will find the monument from a witness post, although 2-3 feet seem to be popular. If the description fits a marker a mile away, that may indeed be the one, although it is rare for the coords to be off that much (we all have stories of marks far away from where expected though). All you can do in that case is locate the disk and see what the markings are, then compare them to the one you were hunting. You should do that anyway to make sure you found the disk you were looking for.

 

If you are going to keep looking, get equipped for the hunt. Most of us have some sort of probe--some use a long screwdriver, I use a Walmart camp fork with the tines broken off. Most have 100' tapes. Many have metal detectors--I got a cheap (and by cheap I mean low cost as well as no real features) one for $35 from Ebay. I also carry a camp shovel, a compass, a small brush to clean dirt away, and an old shirt to wipe off the marks.

 

5/17 isn't a horrible start. I am batting about .650 at the moment, with over 1,100 searched for and 720 found. That is about 1 out of 3 no longer there. I bet you missed a few, but also that 5 or 6 are not going to be there. Depending on the changes in your area that could be much higher!

 

Keep it up! You may get addicted though.

[+Klemmer]

Good job, Woody!

 

I would also add that during the upcoming contest, when searching for older marks, the odds go down even more. Just doing the computer searching for older marks already has a poor looking average. In other words, in the NGS database for areas I have looked at, many marks are already "Not Found" by NGS, even though the marks are still in the database. I might tend not to look for those initially, unless or until I get desperate. Granted, once in a while you might be able to find one NGS missed, but the odds for that are very low (I think I have one like that out of about 50 finds).

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Woody_K -

 

Welcome to benchmark hunting!

 

Be sure to read all of this Benchmark Hunting FAQ page. The paragraph called "Why do the coordinates of some benchmarks seem to be way off?" might explain some of the coordinates-being-off mystery for you.

 

New construction is very bad for the continued existence of survey marks, as you're finding out.

[+Harry Dolphin]

I would also add that during the upcoming contest, when searching for older marks, the odds go down even more. Just doing the computer searching for older marks already has a poor looking average. In other words, in the NGS database for areas I have looked at, many marks are already "Not Found" by NGS, even though the marks are still in the database. I might tend not to look for those initially, unless or until I get desperate. Granted, once in a while you might be able to find one NGS missed, but the odds for that are very low (I think I have one like that out of about 50 finds).

 

Aw. You mean I should probably pass on the 50 to 70 of the "A STANDARD BRASS DISK CEMENTED IN THE TOP OF A 4-INCH TILE PIPE AND SUNK TO WITHIN TWO INCHES OF THE GROUND SURFACE." that were put out in 1913 along the shores of the Passaic and Hackensack Rivers, and none of which were found in 1932 and 1933? Like this one: KV4078 Bummer! Just because they're in the Meadowlands, with no roads anywhere nearby?

I've only printed out 500 or 600 pages of benchmarks in five north Jersey counties, for the upcoming contest!

[James1549]

Greetings Fellow Benchmarkers!

 

I am fairly new to this hobby as well. I received a portable navigation system for my car as a gift, then realized I could actually hunt geocache with it because it has an internal battery. From there I found reading about benchmarks. I can remember finding a few when I was a kid, but not knowing exactly what they were for. Actually hunting benchmarks seem to be a bit more interesting than geocaching.

 

Needless to say, I can see a handheld GPS in the near future!

 

As I was reading some of the comments above, I began to chuckle to myself. I already have a 100' foot tape measure, garden hand shovel, towels, spray bottle of water, and some Brasso in my car. Just this weekend I made a 'poker' out of the broom stick and a 2', 1/4" steel rod sharpened to a point.

 

Will I need a hardhat and a clip board to look official

 

My average is around 50%. For years I have always noticed 'surveyers' in the area for construction projects. Now that I want to find them to get some info (cheat notes), they are no where to be found!

 

I have been photo-logging my finds. Check them out here:

 

http://current.net/james1549/geocache/benchmarks.html

 

Thanks for your time! James

Edited March 28, 2006 by James1549

[Z-man12]

I know they can be off by a lot in the NGS database. The first one (of 2 so far waiting tell contest starts to real up my game) I found was over a block away and a BIG block at that. I realy can't use mettle dectectors because most of the ones in my aria are around the rail road tracks if I took a mettle dector out there it would light up like a christmas tree. Yea there are 2 disks, by home, I think are gone just from reading the NGS information, one is at the bottom of the nucular powerplant lake (not going in there, would end up shot) and another is on an old bridge that just got replaced. Any one got some hints for finding those stupid little ones that are put in concreat that only protudes an 1" and was done like 60 years ago?

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Woody_K,

 

It sounds like you had a good time even though your find count was low. It appears as though you might want to go further afield to get away from the construction. I think that you would have a little better luck, but you might want to wait till' Sunday.

 

 

James1549,

 

Great pictures! The big question is, are you having fun? It appears that you are already hooked!

 

 

Harry,

 

I've only printed out 500 or 600 pages of benchmarks in five north Jersey counties, for the upcoming contest!

 

Are you trying to intimidate the other contestants and potential contestants? That's a lot of paper!! Maybe you should get a laptop? With the cost of paper...you could buy yourself one! Have you worn out your printer yet?

 

Good luck to all that are in the contest and to those of you who are not...there is still time left to enter...just sign up in the 'Sign Up' thread. If you would rather not...have fun anyway and keep watching to see who is ahead.

 

Shirley~

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

I know they can be off by a lot in the NGS database. The first one (of 2 so far waiting tell contest starts to real up my game) I found was over a block away and a BIG block at that. I realy can't use mettle dectectors because most of the ones in my aria are around the rail road tracks if I took a mettle dector out there it would light up like a christmas tree. Yea there are 2 disks, by home, I think are gone just from reading the NGS information, one is at the bottom of the nucular powerplant lake (not going in there, would end up shot) and another is on an old bridge that just got replaced. Any one got some hints for finding those stupid little ones that are put in concreat that only protudes an 1" and was done like 60 years ago?

 

Z-man12,

 

A BIG screwdriver -for probing- a tape measure and a compass are the 3 basic items that might come in handy. That is what we use the most often.

 

Good luck!

 

Shirley & John

[Photobuff]

IMO, you're success rate is GREAT! I only go after marks that nobody else can find, so anything over about ten percent is a gold mine.

[+woody_k]

I do have a metal detector but I do all my caching from a motorcycle so taking it is out of the question.

 

I did take my probe and hand held shovel for detecting with me.

 

I also knew the coords would be off and relied on description.

 

The ones I went after would not have qualified for the contest. they were all newer than 1960 plus most of them were not found by NGS or were placed in 1993 by a water department.

 

I honestly think that when the new railbed was placed it covered many fo the marks and bases that I couldn't find. There is plenty of evidence of this.

[+Harry Dolphin]

Harry,

 

I've only printed out 500 or 600 pages of benchmarks in five north Jersey counties, for the upcoming contest!

 

Are you trying to intimidate the other contestants and potential contestants? That's a lot of paper!! Maybe you should get a laptop? With the cost of paper...you could buy yourself one! Have you worn out your printer yet?

Shirley~

 

Shh... Don't tell anyone that I printed them off at work. Holograph's county list was very helpful.

And, remember, 50 or 70 of them are the cemented into clay tiles in the swamps... Lots of rivets on defunct railroads. We shall see what we shall see. And, I'm not looking for any benchmarks younger than I am. The ones not found in a long time are the most interesting.

[holograph]

Shh... Don't tell anyone that I printed them off at work. Holograph's county list was very helpful.

I think you mean BuckBrooke's county list. At least I think it was BuckBrooke, otherwise I've just added to the confusion.

[mloser]

Woody,

Are you interested in a kid's metal detector? I got a National Geographic metal detector from Ebay about 8 months ago primarily because it was small enough to stick in a backpack. It has a very small head so it won't find marks very deep, but if something is right below the surface it will give you a hit. I have replaced it with a cheap detector that is more standard in size and shape. The Natty G one looks like this. You can have it for the cost of shipping if you want it. The handle is removable so you can just use the tiny base part, which is about 8 x 4 x 3 or so.

For that matter, if anyone is interested in it contact me. Woody gets first shot though!

[mloser]

Z-Man,

 

I have seen a number of people mention that they don't bother to user a metal detector around railroads because they think that there will be all sorts of junk around, but that hasn't been the case from my experience. I recently ran a line of marks about 30 miles up a railroad line and without the metal detector I wouldn't have found many at all. True, you do hit a tie plate or spike once in a while, but my success rate in using the detector to find disks, bolts and rivets has been high enough for me to deal with the false alarms.

 

A couple of recent examples are:

 

KW0931, which I looked for on 5 different occasions. I could never have cleared the dirt off every suspect rock outcrop in the area without some sort of clues. Even here, where the tracks had been removed for years, there was little scrap around. I found a tie plate, a metal bar, an old can, and an aluminum cake pan during that search, and I ran the detector along 100 feet or so of the right of way. So that isn't bad.

 

KW0904, which I searched for 3 times before finding it underground, sideways. With the metal detector, of course. I would never have dug through the ballast and black dirt beside a railway without some indication of metal. Again, I found an old can before the disk, but I did find the disk (which now is on a shelf at home, since it has been marked as destroyed).

 

As for looking for disk on concrete posts, the key is measuring from whatever the datasheet lists as references. Hopefully there will be a few of them, but even with one good one you can get lucky.

[Z-man12]

Mloser

 

While there may be little junk on your railroad, belive me we have a TON. I have about 20lb of spikes in the grage (quite my mom hasn't found them yet) and I pick them up all the time there seems to be a limitless suply of them. Plan to learn how to weld and sell some stuff made out of them I think around here they pull when they have to replace them and leave the old ones on the ground. Oh well. But I have thought about getting a mettle detector before. Maby I will "borrow" the one my grandpa has he never uses it any way.

 

As to land marks some of them are there others are not. I was thinking about using a golf rangefinder to use to mesure off with would that work? I hunt by my self so I have to be creative a tape mesure might be hard to use.

 

One last question how can you keep it? It is considerd destroyed because it was barried and chiped? Just curious

Edited March 28, 2006 by Z-man12

[+woody_k]

Woody,

Are you interested in a kid's metal detector? I got a National Geographic metal detector from Ebay about 8 months ago primarily because it was small enough to stick in a backpack. It has a very small head so it won't find marks very deep, but if something is right below the surface it will give you a hit. I have replaced it with a cheap detector that is more standard in size and shape. The Natty G one looks like this. You can have it for the cost of shipping if you want it. The handle is removable so you can just use the tiny base part, which is about 8 x 4 x 3 or so.

For that matter, if anyone is interested in it contact me. Woody gets first shot though!

 

WOW!! I really do appreciate the offer but in reality a metal detector has no place on a sport bike!! LOL!

[mloser]

Z-man,

I thought about the rangefinder thing but didn't think it would be accurate enough, and I didn't know anyone I could borrow one from to test. I rely on a 100' tape measure--a cheap one I got at Lowes 2 years ago and has lasted the entire time. I have some huge nails, spikes actually, that I use to anchor the dumb end to the ground when I measure. It would be faster and easier to hunt with a partner, but I prefer to do it alone, so I have learned how to measure by myself pretty well. The only problems are when a measurement is more than 100 feet and when I have to cross a road, or measure to the middle of the road. Then I just try to do it quickly when there is no traffic.

 

I have discovered that my metal detector doesn't react to spikes for some reason, even when I was trying to make it detect them. I consider that a blessing, but am still mystified by it. It isn't that it doesn't like ferrous metals. It goes crazy for steel poles and tie plates.

 

As for destroyed marks, the one I mentioned was no longer usable. The post was broken off, which is enough to classify it as destroyed, even if the base remains, as it can no longer be guaranteed to give the correct elevation. In this case the broken top of the post was plowed underground also, so there was no indication of where the mark sat precisely either. I sent pictures to Deb Brown at the NGS and she marked it destroyed. Theoretically they want the disks back, but in reality they don't care what happens to them.

[Z-man12]

Ok make sence.

 

What kind of dector do you have? Might have to get one, maby.

[mloser]

I have a cheap one I got from Ebay. I paid about $35 for it.

[+Black Dog Trackers]

Z-man12 -

 

Here are some comments on rangefinders with a link I gave to an older topic.

 

Most of use a tape measure. The best kind are those with a metal loop on one end. I always bring a stiff wire probe to look for disks under an inch or two of soil. The same wire doubles as a tape anchor. On hard surfaces, a couple of rocks will anchor the tape.

[Photobuff]

The trouble I usually have is measuring to the centerline of a road when there's significant traffic. I usually pin the tape at an estimated distance on the side of the road, then wait until there's no traffic. I run to the center and read the tape. Then I go back to the pin and move it plus or minus the required amount to be correct. I do some optical and mechanical design, and have contemplated building a giant rangefinder. It would just be a length of wood or metal, with a pivoting mirror on one end, and a beamsplitter on the other. I suspect something a foot or two long would be plenty accurate out to a couple hundred feet, but I don't think I'd get enough use out of it to make the construction worthwhile. Consider that a camera rangefinder with a baseline of an inch and a half to two inches or so, is pretty good out to 25', so something two feet long should be great. I've also looked at the sonic ones in the hardware store, but I don't think they can compete with optical fro accuracy. I'd love a transit, but that's going a bit far for a hobby, and even old ones are pretty expensive. My secret weapon is actually a CAD program. I typically redraw a site based on the description and the use of aerial photos to get angles between roads and railroad tracks. If the description says something is x distance away from a point, draw a circle of that radius. If the description says something is x distance away from a line, say a road centerline, draw a parallel line at that distance. Where the circles and lines intersect, you'll find the benchmark. You can also establish distances that are easier to measure than what's in the original description. You can even draw in landmarks that are no longer present, based on the distances in the description.

[mloser]

Photobuff,

I do the same thing to measure road centerlines--measure from some spot to the side of the road and then re-pin the tape to allow further measurement to the mark location. I usually start the tape a few feet from the road edge, then repin it to an even foot when I return, swing the tape and measure. Thus, if I am trying to measure 25.4 feet from the road center, I pin it a couple feet from the shoulder, run to the center, touch the tape to the center lines to get as accurate a measurement as I can, then run back. If I get a measurement of 13.8 feet, I will repin at 14 feet (I guesstimate the 2 tenths at that point), then head off away from the road looking for 11 feet on the tape.

 

In regards to your rangefinder something I bet you thought of but simply didn't post about was that in measuring a distance to something at ground level you will be measuring a "slope" distance. You want the base of the triangle--your feet to the road center, but your height means you are actually getting a longer measurement--your eye to the road center. If you are 5 feet tall (or your eye is) and you want to measure 25 feet from the road you will end up with a measurement of 25.5 feet by standing up and using a rangefinder. On a custom rangefinder meant to be used only by yourself, you could create two scales--one for measuring to the ground, one for items at eye level.

[Photobuff]

mloser- obvious though it is, no, I didn't even think about that! I can envision a scale where the arm from the moving mirror has a piece of plexi on the end, with a line, and the underlying 2d scale would accomodate any eye to ground distance. Well, within reason. IMO, it's throwing too much technology at the problem- I like to tape distances and one reason I do this is for much needed excercise. OTOH, I have a site where I'd sure like to get my hands on one of those ground penetrating radar units

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Perhaps you could use the Electronic Range Finder that we all have with us every time we go benchmark hunting!

 

It is really simple to use and Very Accurate!

 

When the traffic clears, you walk to the center of the road and set a waypoint. Walk back to the side of the road and do a goto for the waypoint you just set. Head for where you think the benchmark is and read the distance you are from the centerline of the road. Keep walking until you are at the correct distance.

 

This method help us find a "buried" benchmark that had no witness post! We re-buried it per the description on the datasheet.

 

John

[Z-man12]

OK thanks I will let you all know how the shearch for the "hidden" Bench Marks goes.

[+LTDunltd]

Just started GC, Have a few founds and a few DNF. Knew about Benchmarks and that a search for them is as fun as GC.

I found my first one by tripping over it. Q78

[68-eldo]

 

I was thinking about using a golf rangefinder to use to mesure off with would that work? I hunt by my self so I have to be creative a tape mesure might be hard to use.

 

 

I maybe wrong but I think the golf rangefinder uses the height of the pin (flag pole on the hole) to measure the distance. So unless you have a standard size pin I don't think it will work.

Edited March 30, 2006 by 68-eldo

[ArtMan]

My secret weapon is actually a CAD program. I typically redraw a site based on the description and the use of aerial photos to get angles between roads and railroad tracks. If the description says something is x distance away from a point, draw a circle of that radius. If the description says something is x distance away from a line, say a road centerline, draw a parallel line at that distance. Where the circles and lines intersect, you'll find the benchmark. You can also establish distances that are easier to measure than what's in the original description. You can even draw in landmarks that are no longer present, based on the distances in the description.

Photobuff,

 

Do you include your drawings in your logs? Can you point us to one? If not, maybe you would like to post an example in this thread? Are you using a high-end commercial program, or something us mere mortals might be able to acquire and make sense of?

 

Thanks from -ArtMan-

[2oldfarts (the rockhounders)]

Just started GC, Have a few founds and a few DNF. Knew about Benchmarks and that a search for them is as fun as GC.

I found my first one by tripping over it. Q78

 

The benchmarks sometimes just tell you to "Find Me"!

 

Welcome to the love of the hunt and be prepared to become addicted.

 

Good find for the first one!

 

Shirley~