Tablet Vs. Station

[+hikergps]

I am new to hunting benchmarks and found one that is a fairly tough one to get to. It is in an alpine wilderness area and refers to a tablet that references a station. If you would like to see the page itself it is HERE. For convienence I have cut and pasted the description:

 

Documented History (by the NGS)

1/1/1916 by CGS (MONUMENTED)

DESCRIBED BY COAST AND GEODETIC SURVEY 1916 (CVH) ABOUT 10 MILES, AIR LINE, N OF W FROM HAINES AND 1-1/2 MILES N OF THE NORTH POWDER RIVER ON THE EASTERNMOST AND HIGHEST OF THE THREE PEAKS ON THE HIGHEST RIDGE N OF THE NORTH POWDER RIVER, ON WHAT IS KNOWN AS NORTH POWDER MOUNTAIN AND ALSO AS THE THREE SISTERS PEAK. THE STATION IS VERY DIFFICULT TO REACH BY PACK ANIMALS. IT IS MARKED BY A BRONZE TABLET IN A BOULDER AS DESCRIBED IN NOTE 5. THE REFERENCE MARK, A BRONZE TABLET IN A BOULDER AS DESCRIBED IN NOTE 12D, WITH THE ARROW POINTING TOWARD THE STATION, IS 4.81 METERS (15.8 FEET) FROM THE STATION IN AZIMUTH 119 DEG 56 MIN.

1/1/1936 by USFS (MONUMENTED)

RECOVERY NOTE BY US FOREST SERVICE 1936 ABOUT 10 MILES AIR LINE N OF W FROM HAINES AND 2 MILES N OF NORTH POWDER RIVER, ON THE E AND HIGHEST POINT OF TWIN MOUNTAIN, ELEVATION ABOUT 8920 FEET. THE POINT WAS FORMERLY KNOWN AS NORTH POWDER MOUNTAIN. TO REACH FROM NORTH POWDER GO W ON ANTHONY LAKES ROAD 4.3 MILES, TURN LEFT FOR 0.7 MILE, TURN RIGHT FOR 3.1 MILES, THEN TURN LEFT OFF ANTHONY LAKES ROAD, GO 3.6 MILES, TURN RIGHT OR W ON NARROW ROAD LEADING UP CREEK, GO 2.1 MILES, TAKE LEFT FORK AND FOLLOW ROAD UP NORTH POWDER RIVER 5.7 MILES OR ABOUT 2 MILES BEYOND NATIONAL FOREST BOUNDARY. THIS IS A POOR ROAD. LEAVE CAR AT CREEK AND ASCEND STEEP SLOPE TO N TO HIGHEST POINT, ABOUT 3 HOURS PACK. STATION MARKED BY DISK IN BOULDER (NOTE 5). REFERENCE MARK, DISK IN BOULDER (NOTE 12D), IS 4.81 METERS (15.8 FEET) NW OF STATION IS AZIMUTH 119 DEG 56 MIN.

 

My 1st rookie question is what is a "tablet" and what would one look like?

2nd rookie question: Is a reference mark a disk?

 

Thanks for you patientce with the new guy!

[+Klemmer]

Sounds like a great hike! I also like to hike up to remote areas for Benchmarks, especially old ones. This sounds pretty challenging. Wish I was closer, I'd seriously look into going with you. What do you figure for hiking miles / elevation change?

 

Anyway:

After some searching on this site, and a few others, I think we might be dealing with a little "drift" in the language over time, or maybe it's a regional thing. I believe that in this case, the "bronze tablet" refered to is the same as the later "bronze disk". I don't know if "tablet" in that context might still be a "term of the art" in surveying, or not. Maybe one of our knowledgeable current or former surveyors could comment on that. Either way, I don't imagine you will have too much difficulty finding them once you get there (the station mark and the reference mark).

 

Have a great time!

[+Black Dog Trackers]

hikergps -

 

Hi and welcome to benchmark hunting!

 

This expedition up to QC0881 sounds like a lot of fun!

 

The term 'tablet' is an antique synonym for 'disk'. If you can, take a closeup picture of the disk, and a scenery picture with the disk visible in it.

 

When going to look for a disk with reference marks, you should always either click on "view original datasheet" or preferable look up the PID (QC0881) on the NGS PID lookup page. On these NGS datasheets, look for the 'box score' which is a box made of ASCII characters. If there is a box score, it should show the direction and distance to each reference mark.

 

Now, with this QC0881, there is a bit of a problem. The description says the direction from the main disk to the reference disk is 119 degrees 56 minutes, while the box score says 299 degrees 56 minutes! So the reference mark disk is eiter 120 degrees or 300 degrees, the opposite directions. Some of these old descriptions used a crazy system of South being zero degrees, so I would lean toward using the 300 degrees direction, but the description clearly said NW, so it's a mystery for you to solve. A bit of caution on using these azimuths - they are True North, not Magnetic North. Your area probably has a bit of declination, so I'd suggest using the NOAA Declination Site to check on this, and make adjustments as necessary. You, being a hiker, probably already know this.

 

Be sure to read the entire benchmark FAQ page. You can't log a find on this unless you find the main station, not just the reference mark. Find both if you can!

[+hikergps]

Sounds like a great hike! I also like to hike up to remote areas for Benchmarks, especially old ones. This sounds pretty challenging. Wish I was closer, I'd seriously look into going with you. What do you figure for hiking miles / elevation change?

 

I'm pretty excited about it. I'm going to make an attempt the last week of July with my 12 year old son. We will be camping at Anthony Lakes in the Wallowa-Whitman National Forest for 2 weeks at an annual family reunion that my family has. It should be a good 2 days round trip from where we start. Elevation will be lots of up and down. The last time we were there I was the expedition leader to the top of a peak called Gunsight Mountain. From the lake to this peak was only about 2 1/2 miles each way but it's 1200 ft elevation gain to the top, bushwacking and picking a route for the last mile or so. It was a pretty interesting trip, about 20 of us ranging in age from 8 to 60. Took most of the day to get up to the top and back. Back to the question, looking at the Quad map I have for this area it should be at least 7 miles each way with an overall gain of 1800 ft, but lots of up and down in between. We're thinking of placing an ammo can along the way somewhere as well.

Anyway:

After some searching on this site, and a few others, I think we might be dealing with a little "drift" in the language over time, or maybe it's a regional thing. I believe that in this case, the "bronze tablet" refered to is the same as the later "bronze disk". I don't know if "tablet" in that context might still be a "term of the art" in surveying, or not. Maybe one of our knowledgeable current or former surveyors could comment on that. Either way, I don't imagine you will have too much difficulty finding them once you get there (the station mark and the reference mark).

 

Have a great time!

 

Thanks! I'll save this thread and post how the trip went. Appreciate the help! hiker

Edited March 25, 2006 by hikergps

[+hikergps]

hikergps -

 

Hi and welcome to benchmark hunting!

 

This expedition up to QC0881 sounds like a lot of fun!

 

The term 'tablet' is an antique synonym for 'disk'. If you can, take a closeup picture of the disk, and a scenery picture with the disk visible in it.

 

I'll definately get pics of the area for all to enjoy!

When going to look for a disk with reference marks, you should always either click on "view original datasheet" or preferable look up the PID (QC0881) on the NGS PID lookup page. On these NGS datasheets, look for the 'box score' which is a box made of ASCII characters. If there is a box score, it should show the direction and distance to each reference mark.

 

Now, with this QC0881, there is a bit of a problem. The description says the direction from the main disk to the reference disk is 119 degrees 56 minutes, while the box score says 299 degrees 56 minutes! So the reference mark disk is eiter 120 degrees or 300 degrees, the opposite directions. Some of these old descriptions used a crazy system of South being zero degrees, so I would lean toward using the 300 degrees direction, but the description clearly said NW, so it's a mystery for you to solve. A bit of caution on using these azimuths - they are True North, not Magnetic North. Your area probably has a bit of declination, so I'd suggest using the NOAA Declination Site to check on this, and make adjustments as necessary. You, being a hiker, probably already know this.

 

Makes my head spin a little looking at the PID. I'll have to do some studying on them. Also, the Quad I have shows 18.5 degrees of declination in 1984, I'll have to get current measurements and compare the drift.

 

Be sure to read the entire benchmark FAQ page. You can't log a find on this unless you find the main station, not just the reference mark. Find both if you can!

 

I've been reading up on them. Best FAQ section I've seen on a subject, really easy to navigate through. I'm not going up until late July (see my previous post) so I have lots of time to get a little more educated. Thanks for the help! hikergps

Edited March 25, 2006 by hikergps

[68-eldo]

I am new to hunting benchmarks and found one that is a fairly tough one to get to. It is in an alpine wilderness area and refers to a tablet that references a station. If you would like to see the page itself it is HERE. For convienence I have cut and pasted the description:

 

My 1st rookie question is what is a "tablet" and what would one look like?

2nd rookie question: Is a reference mark a disk?

 

Thanks for you patientce with the new guy!

 

On this station TU1431 the tablet is a square brass plate attached to a wooden frame with wood screws. Maybe some areas called the disk a "tablet" but for this one it is not a standard disk.

 

When you get there just look for anything man made set in stone.

[CallawayMT]

On this station TU1431 the tablet is a square brass plate attached to a wooden frame with wood screws. Maybe some areas called the disk a "tablet" but for this one it is not a standard disk.

 

When you get there just look for anything man made set in stone.

 

A brass tablet is simply a brass disk which has a small stem attached to the rear of the disk. It can only be mounted in a position which has had a hole drilled into a solid object such as a boulder or concrete and the disk is wedged tight and epoxied or cemented in. Where the nomenclature of a tablet versus a disk came from I am not sure, but you are looking for a standard disk that is cemented into a solid object. This is an older term which you do not see used much anymore.

 

Eldo, I wish you had a photo of your plate; I would be very skeptical about that being the correct mark that you were looking for. If it was screwed onto wood, then it would not be reliable to use for a control mark due to the movement in the wood. I think that mark is either gone or is in a different location than you were looking.

 

CallawayMT

[Z15]

from USGS

 

Vertical control point, third order or better, with tablet. A tablet is similar to a benchmark in that it is placed to permanently mark an elevation and horizontal position that has been surveyed as accurately as possible. Unlike a benchmark, which is marked by a brass plate, the control point shown here is marked by a tablet: a concrete marker with numbers etched onto the top (like a gravestone).

But that said, I had found many USGS marks over the years in which is was described as a standard tablet only to find it was really a USGS survey disk. So it appears the term tablet continued to be used or misused even when the started to use brass disks in the 1890's.

 

Control Data and Monuments

Edited March 25, 2006 by Z15

[CallawayMT]

Here is a description for a Brass Tablet as defined in the BLM manual.

 

 

CallawayMT

[Papa-Bear-NYC]

Here is the usage for the 1909 survey of the 5 boroughs of New York City from Precise Leveling in New York City by Frederick W. Koop, published in 1914:

 

NOTE 1.-- A brass tablet bolt two inches in diameter, leaded or cemented horizontally into the vertical face of stone or brick, flush with the surface. It is provided with a stem at the back 2 3/4 inches in length, which is turned to form grooves around which the lead or cement flows, holding the bolt firmly in place. Two lugs on the back of the tablet give a bond against turning.

 

The face of the tablet is lettered as shown, and is marked horizontally across its center by a V-shaped indentation, the center of which is the bench mark. The bench mark line and lettering are depressed, being cut in the pattern and thus formed in casting. For details in construction see illustration No. 15.

 

Here's illustration No. 15 from the book illustrating the tablet:

 

 

And here's the real thing (On the Soldiers and Sailors Monumental Arch in in Grand Army Plaza, Brooklyn - see my recent note for KU1296):

 

Edited March 25, 2006 by Papa-Bear-NYC

[+hikergps]

Thanks to all for the help and feedback. I am going to our library today to see if I can find some reference books to pour through to get a little more educated on benchmarks and survey points and the like. I'll also get caught up on the references in the "read me 1st posts".

 

I'm sure that the answers will vary by opinion but from a benchmarker's viewpoint, is it ok to place a cache near this benchmark? By ok I don't mean legal, but is it "geo-ethical" provided I follow all of the other geo-guidelines?

 

This area that I am going into is really amazing and I would like to draw others to see it. Here is a pic of a view from a nearby cache-The Lakes that is alot closer to my starting point than to the station disk, looking back down on the lakes. It is a decieving picture because it really doesn't show the elevation changes involved in getting up there on foot. The large lake in the center, Anthony Lake, is my starting point. It is at 7131 ft. The 2 lakes in the immediate forground, Hoffer Lakes, are at 7472 ft. The view from this peak is at 8522 ft. The peak where the station is is at 8896 ft and 4 miles straight-line ESE from the cache.

 

I am actually not going to hike a route that takes me to this point, but plan on doing it as a seperate day hike that will take me to this peak and 2 more to the NE, that you can't see in the picture. My route for the survey station will start at the large lake in the center, Anthony Lake, by the smaller lake to the right-Lilypad Lake, then past another lake out of frame called Black Lake. This is where the trail stops and the bushwacking begins. From Black Lake I will go up and over a saddle between 2 peaks. Then down into a shallow valley, up and over another saddle, down into Dutch Flat, then up Twin Mountain to the survey station. Straight-line distance is 4 1/2 miles from lake to peak. I figure the route I picked will be 10-12 miles depending on foilage and rocks, with lots of up and down. I figure an easy 2 days there and back, with time to stop and sample the trout at Black Lake on the way back down to my starting point. The bushwacking won't be that bad because alot of it is in scattered trees at higher elevations defined by large granite formations. Thanks again for your responses. hikergps

 

[+Klemmer]

Personally, I see no ethical issue, as long as you follow good wilderness practices, and geocaching guidelines. However, there may be "legal" issues, which the geocaching guidelines will also address. The main one to watch for in your situation will be: No physical caches allowed in National Parks or official "Wilderness Areas". The definitions of Wilderness Area is clear at the federal level, but seems to me to get a little fuzzy at the state level, so it would be a good idea to figure out who "owns" the area you have in mind. From the Topo I looked at, I see it is (or was) in the Whitman National Forest. That is no problem, as long as they have not recently established a subsidiary Wilderness Area. Best to check a recent National Forest, which I guess you have, or even with the rangers. IF IT IS, you have the alternative of establishing an "offset" cache, which will require that the cacher get to the peak, but that will have the actual cache outside the Wilderness Area. Here is one I set up with a friend on San Gorgonio Peak down here in SoCal at around 11,500 feet. If someone knew where the cache ACTUALLY is, they could save about 12 very hard miles! Come on down and hike it sometime.

 

Have a GREAT time on your "expedition"!

[+hikergps]

Personally, I see no ethical issue, as long as you follow good wilderness practices, and geocaching guidelines. However, there may be "legal" issues, which the geocaching guidelines will also address. The main one to watch for in your situation will be: No physical caches allowed in National Parks or official "Wilderness Areas". The definitions of Wilderness Area is clear at the federal level, but seems to me to get a little fuzzy at the state level, so it would be a good idea to figure out who "owns" the area you have in mind. From the Topo I looked at, I see it is (or was) in the Whitman National Forest. That is no problem, as long as they have not recently established a subsidiary Wilderness Area. Best to check a recent National Forest, which I guess you have, or even with the rangers. IF IT IS, you have the alternative of establishing an "offset" cache, which will require that the cacher get to the peak, but that will have the actual cache outside the Wilderness Area. Here is one I set up with a friend on San Gorgonio Peak down here in SoCal at around 11,500 feet. If someone knew where the cache ACTUALLY is, they could save about 12 very hard miles! Come on down and hike it sometime.

 

Have a GREAT time on your "expedition"!

 

Thanks. I'll check with the Ranger district that handles this area. If I ever get down to LA I'll have to give yous a shot. Well, I appreciate the help on the pesky posts and questions that I had. Look for a posting in August on my adventures up to the Powder marker. hikergps

[68-eldo]

 

Eldo, I wish you had a photo of your plate; I would be very skeptical about that being the correct mark that you were looking for. If it was screwed onto wood, then it would not be reliable to use for a control mark due to the movement in the wood. I think that mark is either gone or is in a different location than you were looking.

 

CallawayMT

 

Yep, I agree it is a pretty flaky mark, but it was exactly where the description indicated and was stamped with the correct number. I am confident it is the mark.

 

I would go back and get a better pencil rubbing but since I retired I don't have access any more.

 

Pictures are not allowed if you don't have photographer's permit. If they find you have a camera phone they will take it to the forge shop and smash it with a trip hammer. That’s how serious they are.