Event Insurance Update

[+Write and Mane]

We kicked this topic off back in February, so here's an update.

 

A lot of insurers just don't want to know or make it clear that their minimum rates would be too expensive because they are geared to major events, shows, etc. Even some of those that appeared hopeful initially have declined to quote because we are not a business or a charity, etc or because we are not clients of them for other insurance. An example of the latter is NFU Mutual - if you already do business with them, they will give you a quote ... but we couldn't even get a feel for the likely premium.

 

The only positive source we have found is an organisation called Event Insurance Services, with whom we would be looking at a minimum premium of about £70 for the lowest level of public liability cover only. Realistically, some additional cover would be appropriate which could take the cost up to around £200. This is much more than we had anticipated or would be prepared to pay. This suggests that you could run an event charging, say, £1-2 a head to cover the cost of insurance - but we don't see the sense in this, when the biggest difference between the event and going out geocaching is the inclusion of the opportunity to meet socially. As people have said, you can go to a pub to do this without an entrance fee.

 

It seems that, if we were a club or organisation that already had insurance, an endorsement for a one-off event might be quite economical - but we don't fit this category. It does raise the question: is there a mechanism whereby the geocaching community can have a general UK wide insurance, with each event needing only specific endorsement at nominal cost?

 

It is disturbing that events are in danger of cancellation because of this problem. The only example of an event that was covered by insurance was where the owners of the venue were arranging it. This raises the question of whether the Council who run the park where our event is to be held can do this, with us paying the relevant premium. We are currently checking this out.

 

Whatever the outcome, we still intend to go ahead, but it looks as if we will have to make it clear that the event is primarily a social meeting venue and information source. People will go off looking for caches - but on their own individual initiative, as they would normally in pursuit of the hobby. We would hope that newcomers will have a chance to give it a try with willing experienced cachers, but this would have to be a one-to-one arrangement by mutual agreement.

 

Yes, we know this looks completely OTT for taking a walk in a park or the surrounding countryside and being helpful and friendly to newcomers who show an interest.

 

We hope this summary of what we have done/discovered is of some help to others. At the same time, we are still open to words of wisdom from anyone else. Just to pre-empt the possible "Give up geocaching and stay in bed all day", we have thought of that but can't take the risk in case something falls off a plane and comes through our roof.

[+naffita]

In the March edition of Local Council Review, the official journal of the National Association of Local Councils.

 

An article by David Yearly of RoSPA:

 

“Much of this obsession ( with safety ) is led by misconceptions regarding the possibility of being sued. There are many myths surrounding this. The situation is simple: You can only successfully be sued if you are negligent. Accidents will always happen even in the best regulated places. Just because someone has an accident in an area that is your responsibility it does not mean that you are to blame. Did you cause the accident? No? Then you are not liable. It is refreshing to find that the courts are very robust on this. In reality the number of payouts are very small.”

 

The article goes on somewhat, mostly about the installation of play area and equipment safety checks that are of more interest to councils, but the principle remains.

 

You could write to RoSPA for advice. I have found that the easiest reason to deny a function, activity, or meeting is to ask “are you insured ?”

[The Royles]

Whatever the outcome, we still intend to go ahead, but it looks as if we will have to make it clear that the event is primarily a social meeting venue and information source. People will go off looking for caches - but on their own individual initiative, as they would normally in pursuit of the hobby. We would hope that newcomers will have a chance to give it a try with willing experienced cachers, but this would have to be a one-to-one arrangement by mutual agreement.

 

Glad to see that it is going ahead, it would be sad if it had to be cancelled. As far as I read it, an event cache IS the social side of it, the caching is just something that cachers are prone to doing from time to time This is a quote from Groundspeak on the subject:

 

In addition, an event cache should not be set up for the sole purpose of drawing together cachers for an organized hunt of another cache or caches.

 

It would probably clear things if the event was defined it terms of time and place. Rather than put all day in the country park, tell people it is for example 10 till 2 in the picnic area - that way the caching is separated out.

[+Cryptik Souls Crew]

The only example of an event that was covered by insurance was where the owners of the venue were arranging it. This raises the question of whether the Council who run the park where our event is to be held can do this, with us paying the relevant premium. We are currently checking this out.

 

We have insurance cover in place for our CITO event in April, I contacted the conservation group who helped us set it up and asked them about insurance. I was told they would provide insurance cover at no cost to us.

 

To be honest I would be very surprised if someone attempted to make a claim against you if they injured themselves while caching, and even more surprised if they were successful. I would not be worried about holding an event cache without insurance cover in place.

[+Flyfishermanbob]

Some would think this would be a Topic that GAGB would give guidance ...

 

listen to that silence shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

[+Moote]

Some would think this would be a Topic that GAGB would give guidance ...

 

listen to that silence shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...

We are looking at this matter, but we know it will not be easy to resolve; there are a few reasons that this maybe the case.

• GAGB is limited in terms of funding. If GAGB provided cover the money would have to come from somewhere, after all it does not charge for membership
  
• Each Landowner has its own Insurance policy, it is notoriously very hard to negotiate a clause out of a policy; therefore each event would have to be negotiated way in advance and still might not produce results (from experience maybe years).
  

I personally have raised this with the rest of the committee and we are looking at these issues, this is something that started at the time Write and Mane posted his original forum topic "Event Insurance", at the end of February. You might like to note that I actually added a lot of positive ideas on combating the problems, and added information gained from personal experience. This is not really Landowner issues, they are Insurance Company issues; and as these Corporate bodies ultimate aims are to produce profit for share holders they will find more ways of squeezing pennies out of the public.

 

This is a case of everyone covering there own Butt, Landowners, Insurance companies, Event Equipment Hire companies etc. It also looks like a possibility that in some cases you would have to provide a list of names and addresses of people attending the event prior to its start; if this was required this could put an end to the "Oh lets go to that event today" attitude, and the organiser might spend more time policing the event than enjoying it.

 

I did see a loop hole in the insurance scam and that was to arrange an event in a Pub or other place just on the outskirts of the Country Park you want to bring people. This would officially mean the event was not in the County Park and therefore no insurance would be required by the landowner as the event is not on their property, and you leave it to the cachers imagination to visit the surrounding areas.

 

If you organise an event knowing that the Landowner requires Insurance cover, but go ahead without and for the 1000000 to 1 chance someone has a serious accident, you might find yourself in a Civil Court facing all 3 parties, so at this stage I would recommend that you weigh up if this is a path you wish to take!

 

Personally I think that CITO's will be harder to insure, but as Cryptik has pointed out, there are Conservation groups who might be willing to help and advise, I will take a thought I have here to the GAGB committee.

 

Personally I am trying my best to gather information on these issues, and trying to gain an amicable result, I also know that the committee is committed at looking at these issues; we can't promise results at this stage as it appears that this is a new obstacle to GeoCaching, so please give the GAGB chance to look and investigate the matters.

 

Thanks

 

Milton

[+The Hokesters]

Has anyone tried contacting their local CVS Find your nearest CVS

 

The CVS support people in the voluntary sector. In order to obtain their advice you could build an event up as a voluntary "open to all" meet and greet and instruction event.

 

Worth a try I reckon.

[+Haggis Hunter]

We have insurance cover in place for our CITO event in April, I contacted the conservation group who helped us set it up and asked them about insurance. I was told they would provide insurance cover at no cost to us.

Exactly the same situation for my event. That reminds me, I have to go out and do the risk assessment.

[+sTeamTraen]

An article by David Yearly of RoSPA:

 

“Much of this obsession ( with safety ) is led by misconceptions regarding the possibility of being sued. There are many myths surrounding this. The situation is simple: You can only successfully be sued if you are negligent. Accidents will always happen even in the best regulated places. Just because someone has an accident in an area that is your responsibility it does not mean that you are to blame. Did you cause the accident? No? Then you are not liable. It is refreshing to find that the courts are very robust on this. In reality the number of payouts are very small.”

 

Wonderful. Finally, some sanity. Despite what the press might have you think, the moment someone steps within a hundred feet of you, you are not obliged to pay for holidays at Disneyland for life for them if they trip over their own shoelaces.

 

France is, if anything, more insurance-minded than the UK, and although they are less litigious here than the UK (and let's face it, the UK is still 10 times less than in the US), a lot of people here also think you can be sued if "something bad happens". As a result, people, but especially clubs and other associations, spend a fortune on insurance which they don't need and for which they will never be able to make a claim anyway (French insurers' exclusion lists are as long as anywhere else).

 

I organised an event for nearly 100 people last year and the idea of insurance never crossed my mind. One thing that helped (but it wouldn't have been a showstopper) was that nobody paid to take part in the event. (When it was safely over, and people had had a few beers, I passed a hat round, and collected 430 Euros, leaving me just 50 Euros out of pocket for one of the most rewarding days of my life.)