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State Game Lands


lynie

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:) I am ready to set my first geocache so I called the PA State Game Lands office in my area. I was informed it was not allowed and an illegal use of the land. I'm confused - I see lots of geocaches on state game land property.. Has anyone else encountered this?
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:) I am ready to set my first geocache so I called the PA State Game Lands office in my area. I was informed it was not allowed and an illegal use of the land. I'm confused - I see lots of geocaches on state game land property.. Has anyone else encountered this?

 

Many, many caches are placed with permission of State Gamelands Wardens across our fine state. I suppose that an individual gamelands manager or employee could say "no" or take the view that a cache constitutes littering. I'd respect the individual land manager's wishes and pick a different spot.

 

It is not illegal. Refer who you spoke to dcnr.state.pa.us/geocaching. That should clear it up.

That's bad advice. The DCNR has jurisdiction over state parks and state forests, and there is a published geocaching policy in place for caches hidden there. The gamelands are managed by the Pennsylvania Game Commission -- a totally separate agency.

 

EDIT to add that I moved the thread to the Northeast Regional Forum, as this is not really a "Getting Started" issue.

Edited by Keystone
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I believe this matter has been cleared up. I spoke with a PA State Game Lands Law Enforcement person in Harrisburg today and was told it was legal to set caches.

 

Harrisburg then contacted the regional office that had told me it was illegal.

 

The Regional office just called and told me it was legal and no special permissions are required.

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Just make sure that you follow the rules.

 

135.41

21) Except on Sundays, be present on State game lands from November 15 through December 15 inclusive when not engaged in lawful hunting or trapping and fail to wear a minimum of 250 square inches of daylight fluorescent orange-colored material on the head, chest and back combined or, in lieu thereof, a hat of the same colored material. The material shall be worn so it is visible in a 360° arc. Persons using shooting ranges are exempted from this requirement.

 

Here is a link to the laws and regulations. The above is just one that I picked out to give an example of.

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I have a number of caches in PA State Game Lands. Here's a good link for maps of SGL's.. Click on the area in the state you're interested in. Then find the SGL by number. Click on that and you get a great map in PDF format that you can print it out and draw lines on at the tick marks in DD MM SS for locating potential hide spots.

Edited by Alan2
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Excellent work there, lynie. Other localized misunderstandings have happened in the past, but were cleared up in a similar manner.

 

The Pennsylvania cache reviewers really appreciate people like you, letting us know what you are hearing, and doing the legwork to solve problems. I am sure your cache will sail through the publication process. Please summarize your conversations in a "note to reviewer" when you hide the cache in the Gamelands.

 

Note that lots of cache pages for Gamelands caches include cautions about hunting and the regulations for everyone wearing orange. They often also mention that there's no hunting on Sundays.

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... They often also mention that there's no hunting on Sundays.

Just a note that there is some hunting on Sundays. Coyotes and Foxes are allowed *but usually* are hunted at night. Crows are allowed as well but not quite all year.

 

2303

Sec. 2303. Hunting on Sunday prohibited.

 

(a) General rule. - Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to hunt for any furbearer or game on Sunday.

 

(:( Construction of section. - This section shall not be construed to prohibit:

 

(1) The training of dogs.

 

(2) The participation in dog trials as provided for in this title.

 

(3) The removal of lawfully taken game or wildlife from traps or the resetting of the traps on Sunday.

 

(b.1) Exceptions. - Subsection (a) shall not apply to:

 

(1) The hunting of foxes.

 

(2) The hunting of coyotes.

 

(3) Any hunting which occurs on noncommercial regulated hunting grounds holding a valid permit under section 2928(:((2) (relating to regulated hunting grounds permits).

 

© Penalty. - A violation of this section is a summary offense of the fifth degree.

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Note DCNR and Pa Game Commission lands are not one and the same. They have different rules. Inaddition some areas around lakes are owned by the Pa Fish Commission. Still more rules..

The rule the guy might be talking about is:

 

Pa Game Commission

;)

§ 135.2. Unlawful actions

(6) Remove or attempt to remove any manmade or natural object except wildlife and fish lawfully taken. Objects which may not be removed include animals, rocks, minerals, sand and historical or archaeological artifacts.

And

(2) Plant, gather, cut, dig, remove or otherwise injure plants or parts thereof, including trees, shrubs, vines, flowering plants, cultivated crops, mushrooms and fruits of berry-producing plants.

or

(19) Use State game lands for any personal, organizational or commercial purpose other than the intended use as defined in section 722 of the act.

 

I guess someone could read all the above and say "NO" to geocaching....:>(

 

For the list see:

 

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/058/chap...chap135toc.html

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I recently placed a cache in Rothrock state forest and had to fill out some paperwork. Here is the link to where i found information on Geocaching on DCNR's website.http://www.dcnr.state.pa.us/geocaching.aspx

Hope this helps you! cool.gif

 

As mentioned in a previous post, state game lands are not the same thing as a state forests/parks and are under different governing autorities and rules. The DCNR permit system does not apply to state game lands.

Edited by briansnat
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ImpalaBob (who is an PA HTE instructor) contacted Doug Killough who is the Director for the Southeast PA Region of the PA Game Commission. It concerned a problem that another cacher was having with the placement of her caches in state gamelands. He is well aware of geocaching. Here is the answer from the true Authority of our region:

 

Geocaches may be placed on State Game lands provided that ALL State game land laws are adhered to..... especially...

 

(21) Except on Sundays, be present on State game lands from November 15 through December 15 inclusive when not engaged in lawful hunting or trapping and fail to wear a minimum of 250 square inches of daylight fluorescent orange-colored material on the head, chest and back combined or, in lieu thereof, a hat of the same colored material. The material shall be worn so it is visible in a 360° arc. Persons using shooting ranges are exempted from this requirement.

 

Containers are expected to be small in size and placement should not damage the surrounding environment.

 

He would encourage each cache placed on Game lands to have the above information prominently displayed on the cache page. Each cache container should be well labeled to identify itself as a geocache .... especially ammo boxes (whose munitions markings should be removed or painted over).

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Link to PA Game Commission Laws & Regulations

 

I want to make it clear that while on State Game Lands you MUST obey all Title 34 and 58 laws. During hunting seasons you MUST conform to the same safety requirements as the hunters.

 

State Game lands are primarily bought and funded by hunting permits .... so have some respect for the hunters while you are there. Frankly I would advise anyone to avoid the Game lands completely (except for Sunday) during deer season. Disabling the cache during deer season would be an even better and safer idea!

 

Consult the Hunting Digest if you are in doubt as to what times the different hunting seasons occur.

 

:blink: ImpalaBob

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I have placed a call into the North East Regional office ..... and intend to follow this up. There should be no differences between Regions. I want an official statement that will apply for the entire PA State.

 

I will contact Carl Roe who is the State Director and see what he has to say about it. :lol: ImpalaBob

Edited by ImpalaBob
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Seems that soon after my call to the Northeast regional Office ..... a certain geocacher gets a call from a game officer, ON HER CELL PHONE, stating : "We" still believe that geocaching is an illegal / unintended use of PAGC lands.   HOWEVER, my supervisor is going to allow caching unless there are complaints from hunters or landowners."

 

Specifically: Sec. 722. Use of property.

 

(a) General rule. - Except as provided in section 723 (relating to exchange or sale), all or any part of the lands and waters to which title has been acquired for the use of the commission or which have been leased may be used only to create and maintain public hunting and furtaking, game or wildlife propagation areas, farms or facilities for the propagation of game or wildlife, special preserves as provided for in this title or other uses incidental to hunting, furtaking and game or wildlife resource management.

 

Still think nothing good will come of this?

 

We will get a better reputation by playing by the rules .... and being able to educate geocachers as to the proper way to interact with hunters and respect the sport of hunting. Open space is something that we all must strive to preserve. :ph34r: ImpalaBob

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Still think nothing good will come of this?

 

Yes. Nothing good will come of this. We had no rules from the Game Commission for the use of Game Lands for caching, we still have no rules. On the other hand, we now have PGC officers aware of geocaching. Judging by the phone conversation you quoted, don't you think they will now be more aware of our game, if nothing more than to find something wrong and make their point with the supervisor? It's pretty obvious they have a negative predisposition toward geocaching.

Edited by Klatch
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If you think for one minute that the PA Game Commission is unaware of geocaching ...you are WRONG! I am a Hunter Trapper Education Instructor and they are well aware of it, and have been for many years. I received a very positive response from the Director of the Southeast Region.

 

It is important that YOU understand that State Gameland Laws are well enforcred by a lot of dedicated Wildlife Conservation Officers .... who at times have more authority than the State Police.

 

FOR NOW i WILL BE LEAVING WELL ENOUGH ALONE ...as I have managed to get permissions from both the Southeast and Northeast Regions.

 

I will be letting the reviewer from my area know about the proper posting required on the cache page to properly direct cachers to the Game Laws so everyone will get along.

 

I paid for hunting licenses whose funds bought and maintain these lands .... and these lands have specific laws governing them. If you want to cache on State Gamelands .... you had better adhere to the laws!

 

;) ImpalaBob

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If you think for one minute that the PA Game Commission is unaware of geocaching ...you are WRONG! I am a Hunter Trapper Education Instructor and they are well aware of it, and have been for many years. I received a very positive response from the Director of the Southeast Region.

 

It is important that YOU understand that State Gameland Laws are well enforcred by a lot of dedicated Wildlife Conservation Officers .... who at times have more authority than the State Police.

 

FOR NOW i WILL BE LEAVING WELL ENOUGH ALONE ...as I have managed to get permissions from both the Southeast and Northeast Regions.

 

I will be letting the reviewer from my area know about the proper posting required on the cache page to properly direct cachers to the Game Laws so everyone will get along.

 

I paid for hunting licenses whose funds bought and maintain these lands .... and these lands have specific laws governing them. If you want to cache on State Gamelands .... you had better adhere to the laws!

 

;) ImpalaBob

 

I have purchased hunting licenses for 45 years and have been a Hunter Safety Instructor. I always post links to the Game Lands Regulations on my caches which are on Game Lands. I know the laws and obey them. You got permission when none was previously required. Stirring up a governmental beauracracy is never a good thing. I am done with this. Hopefully it will play out OK.

Edited by Klatch
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Klatch stated that he or she had placed some caches in PGC land with out the permission of the land manager. I thought you were supposed to get permission to put a cache on private land. As for not needing permission, what if one day the pgc decided to fine anyone who had placed a cache on pgc land? too much litter bewteen a cache and the parking lot; fine the cacher who hid it regardless of who put the trash there. with out some type of approval form some one able to make decisions for a large area these kind of things could happen. I am currently working with a park system to keep caches in nature centers all because someone put caches on "public" land with out the permission of the land manager. All it takes is one sensitive area to be disturbed to tick off a land manager. I have seen der lays(where the deer hole up during the day) torn apart by cachers looking for a cache. it was in a park, but what if it was by your favorite hunting spot?

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Klatch stated that he or she had placed some caches in PGC land with out the permission of the land manager. I thought you were supposed to get permission to put a cache on private land. As for not needing permission, what if one day the pgc decided to fine anyone who had placed a cache on pgc land? too much litter bewteen a cache and the parking lot; fine the cacher who hid it regardless of who put the trash there. with out some type of approval form some one able to make decisions for a large area these kind of things could happen. I am currently working with a park system to keep caches in nature centers all because someone put caches on "public" land with out the permission of the land manager. All it takes is one sensitive area to be disturbed to tick off a land manager. I have seen der lays(where the deer hole up during the day) torn apart by cachers looking for a cache. it was in a park, but what if it was by your favorite hunting spot?

 

At this time... SGL are private? SGL require permission?

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At this time... SGL are private? SGL require permission?

I don't think that there is any law/rule that lets a person cache on game lands yet as it is relativley new. So maybe the land managers/region offices are going with the flow of things to be helpful in including this activity on game lands. The law (quoted and linked below) as it is written is pretty clear as to what is or is not allowed to take place on game lands. Don't take me wrong as I would hate for the Game Commission Officials to not allow this to happen on game lands.

 

Chapter 135

(a) Restrictions limited. The following exceptions to § 135.2 (relating to unlawful actions) pertain to lands and waters designated as State game lands:

(19) Use State game lands for any personal, organizational or commercial purpose other than the intended use as defined in section 722 of the act.

722

Sec. 722. Use of property.

(a) General rule. - Except as provided in section 723 (relating to exchange or sale), all or any part of the lands and waters to which title has been acquired for the use of the commission or which have been leased may be used only to create and maintain public hunting and furtaking, game or wildlife propagation areas, farms or facilities for the propagation of game or wildlife, special preserves as provided for in this title or other uses incidental to hunting, furtaking and game or wildlife resource management.

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Klatch .... Read Koikeeper's post! This all started because I was contacted for assistance AFTER caches were pulled from a Northeast Region Gameland area. I was asked to help clear things up. I got them to call her and give them back for replacement onto the Gamelands. WE CAN DO IT LEGALLY ... We just have to clear up the issues about people posting "Wear RED", or 'Wear bright colors." ITS HUNTER ORANGE!

 

Cachers are unaware that hunting is a year long event. They think we only hunt deer in the Winter. You and I know the correct game laws. It's our job to educate our fellow cachers so that they can cache safely and not interfere with the hunters. The more people use the game lands and know about them ... the less chance that they will be taken away from us. There is a proposal to charge a fee for hunting on gamelands .... and how do you think this will play out if geocachers are arrested for tresspassing?

 

I want cachers to understand that this is not a Walk in the PARK ... but a Walk in a designated hunting area!

 

Please help me educate cachers and cache page reviewers we can get the correct info on the cache pages to mkae this SAFE for everyone. The same thing played out in the past to get everyone on board for DCNR area caches. :D ImpalaBob

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The PGC is not run funded by tax dollars therefore all lands purchased and managed by the pgc are "private lands" for the use of pgc and it's licenced users for hunting, trapping and propagation of game species in the state of PA. they could even charge an extra fee for fishing in a lake on pgc property if they so choose.

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The PGC is not run funded by tax dollars therefore all lands purchased and managed by the pgc are "private lands" for the use of pgc and it's licenced users for hunting, trapping and propagation of game species in the state of PA. they could even charge an extra fee for fishing in a lake on pgc property if they so choose.

 

While what ChinCache says is correct now, that might not always be the case. This article references a bill that will (amoung other things) require a $20 conservation stamp for both hunters and non-hunters that use the SGL.

 

Is this good or bad? I am not sure. Currently non-hunters have no voice in the running of the PGC’s policies. If cachers, hikers, bird-watcher, dog walkers, etc. are taxed, should they also be represented in the Game Commission?

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FYIW Only about 50% of the 3 million acres os PA gamelands are deemed public access. These access areas are usually bounded by safety zones and use rules. Certain times and trails may be used to ride horses or snowmobiles. Certain paths are walking only. The rules and laws are very complicated. Consult the PA Game Commission web site and specifically the Hunter Digest for current hunting seasons and laws. When you park at a designated gamelands lot there will be a posted rules sign ... READ IT before entering.

 

Specifically Section 722 Land Use is the rule we are having thrown at us when geocaching .... geocaching is not an intended land use. Luckily the Southeast Region is sympathetic to our cause .... but it seems the Northeast Region still has some who are OK with it and others who are not. TPMille got some hassles this past weekend while walking out of a Northeast gameland .... but handled it and moved on without incident.

 

My advice for now is if you are confronted by a WCO (Wildlife Conservation Officer)... don't mention geocaching. If you are placing a cache .... try to do so in a safety zone or very near the paths or unimproved roads. Put the PAGC link on your cache page. I am working with another cacher to get a standard PAGC Warning and links "cut and paste" that everyone can use similar to the DCNR information.

 

If you see hunters .... You did not do your homework! GET OUT! Come back on Sunday. :laughing: ImpalaBob

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It looks like March 24 was the start and the end of this thread. A question was asked. Calls to the PGC were made. The Regional office of the PGC stated that geocaching was legal and no special permissions are required. The cache in question was placed on March 30 by lynie and approved (sorry… published) on April 1 by Keystone. Good job, people! All that in just 7 postings. Done. Now lets move on to how these threads go off on a tangent for 30 more postings. PaSGL may be technically private, but pertaining to this thread they are public! ATV’s, snowmobiles, horses, bicycles, hikers, walkers, photographers, bird watchers, joggers, berry pickers, and on, and on… may not be hunters or propagating wildlife, but they are allowed on PaSGL. PaSGL are open to the public. There is hunting on Sundays. No, I don’t think the PGC WAS aware of geocaching! Maybe the workers were, maybe the WCO’s were - but the top dogs who make the rules and regulations, (remember those? It’s what the thread was about) sitting in Harrisburg probably didn’t know the game existed - until now. Place your cache that it won’t interfere with the wildlife beds or a potential hunter’s deer stand. If you’re not a hunter (what the main intent the lands are for, and purchased by same) and can’t recognize these types of locations, go place a micro in the mall. I don’t think sensible, logical cachers, using common sense are going to jeopardize geocaching on SGL - in the near future. My previous posting on the 13th was sarcasm - I didn’t need an explanation - yes, I went off on a tangent. I don’t really care that you are a Hunting Instructor. I don’t care if they charge a fee for fishing on a lake. My concern was to get this subject over with as soon as possible. Now I’m a hypocrite for even posting this.

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