Should Invalid Email Accounts Disable Membership

[+EverSeeking]

I had an incident of a Travel Bug I started that fell into the hands of a Geocacher that has only two travel bugs registered (White Jeeps) and they are both still with him since December. When I tried to email him thru the web site just to ask if he was planning to free it, the email bounced. Writing to geocaching.com to ask about if they do any auto-disabling of such things, they asked me to append here.

 

I feel you should see, via the profile page, if a cacher account has been diabled so you know they are bogus and any issue you have with them you might as well write off. I know geocaching.com does not normally send emails, but when they do or a member does and they detect a bounce (due to hard error like missing account or invalid domain, not a transient error like mailbox full), they could place the account in disabled status. This will drop the number of "active cachers" registered, but I think that would be a good thing.

 

A user with a disabled account could still logon and then they would need to provide a email address that would be validated by sending a test email with some link.

 

Thoughts?

 

Regards,

EverSeeking

Edited March 24, 2006 by EverSeeking

[+ZackJones]

I don't think Groundspeak should automatically disable accounts based upon a bounced email.

[+NotThePainter]

I don't think Groundspeak should automatically disable accounts based upon a bounced email.

Why not? What harm would it do? Worse case would be that you would be late logging something while you fixed it up. Best case would be that you were notified by the web site, not your now broken email, that something was wrong.

 

Paul

[+sbell111]

I agree that this may help the problem.

 

Its been a long time since I registered, but I think that you should be sent a confirmation email upon registering. You should not be allowed to sign in until you clicked through from that email.

 

If, at a later date, your email begins to bounce, you should be sent a new confirmation email and click through it before you can access cache data again.

[+Allen_L]

If, at a later date, your email begins to bounce, you should be sent a new confirmation email and click through it before you can access cache data again.

How can someone click through an email which bounced?

[+sbell111]

That's my point.

 

Its the same model that yahoo uses. You would have to either get the problem fixed with your email address (typically delete some emails to make room) or give a new email address. Either way, you would click a button stating that the problem is resolved and then a new verification email would be sent to you. If you did, indeed, fix the problem with your email, you would be able to receive the new email, click on the confirmation link and, once again, be able to access cache data.

[+ZackJones]

Why not? What harm would it do? Worse case would be that you would be late logging something while you fixed it up. Best case would be that you were notified by the web site, not your now broken email, that something was wrong.

 

Paul

 

Managing email is a pretty time consuming task and I would prefer to have Groundspeak use its resources to enhance the web site and other aspects of geocahing. Email servers can and do go down and I wouldn't want my account disabled because an email message can't be delivered to me.

[+sbell111]

Managing email is a pretty time consuming task and I would prefer to have Groundspeak use its resources to enhance the web site and other aspects of geocahing. Email servers can and do go down and I wouldn't want my account disabled because an email message can't be delivered to me.

It is not like your account would disappear. All you would have to do is let them know that you still exist and you would be all set. The beauty of it is that accounts for people who truly did give up the game would no longer be a drag on the system and those individuals who merely forgot to change their email address would be prompted to do so.

 

I doubt that implementation of this would cause more load on the servers than they would free up. If your email server hiccupped, you could quickly verify that your email address is still good and be back in action in just a minute or so.

[+Renegade Knight]

For any number of reasons it may be important to contact a geocacher. Since email is about the only way to do that (short of the phone a friend network which is usually local) I think there is a good case to be made for requiring a valid and active email to maintain an active account.

 

However there is an entire set of problems that has to be solved to implement something like this.

[+sbell111]

For any number of reasons it may be important to contact a geocacher. Since email is about the only way to do that (short of the phone a friend network which is usually local) I think there is a good case to be made for requiring a valid and active email to maintain an active account.

 

However there is an entire set of problems that has to be solved to implement something like this.

Woah, slow down, buddy. I'm just the idea guy. Implementation is down the hall.

[Elias]

Actually, we already do this.

 

About every 6 months or so, I run a tool that goes through the mail server logs and looks for hard bounces and then I invalidate those accounts. My tool only looks for hard bounces, but it isn't perfect and there are a small percentage of false-positives. I also miss a ton of bounces where the message is relayed through another server first and then bounces (in that case, the logs show successful delivery).

 

Now that I think of it, its probably been over 6 months since I ran my tool last....

 

RN is correct. We don't ask for much from people when it comes to account data. But a valid email is critical and required. It's important that we be able to contact a Geocacher if we need to, and we also like to be a responsible netizen and not bombard other servers with emails addressed to invalid recipients.

 

Elias

[+Astro_D]

I would certainly like to see something in place with valid email acounts. We, and several other cachers, have had several problems with a local cacher who has an invalid email for over a year now. We cannot contact this person and its very frustrating.

 

Almost all forums and groups that I belong too, require a valid email account and a validation confirmation. I don't see it as asking much for people to register a legit email and suspending an account for an invalid one. After all its not like GC sends our spam.

[+StarBrand]

I would hope that it wouldn't happen after a single bounce back as any number of temporary problems can bounce an email. A few minutes, hours or a day or two later it starts working again. Need to see these bounce over a period of time - short period but not just a one time deal.

[Elias]

I would hope that it wouldn't happen after a single bounce back as any number of temporary problems can bounce an email. A few minutes, hours or a day or two later it starts working again. Need to see these bounce over a period of time - short period but not just a one time deal.

It should work this way, but it doesn't. That's why we do get some false positives. When I run my tool, I run it over a week long period so I can catch bounces to our weekly emailer, and if your mail server happens to hard bounce a single email, you're invalidated.

 

I only look for hard bounces; things like vacation notices, over quota, dns issues, and any other transient deferrals are not considered bounces and do not cause invalidation.

 

Elias

[+Marky]

Besides your tool that you run every 6 months, might it be possible to detect bounces and then flag an account that is bouncing with a big red warning message on their "My Profile" page so that they are aware of the problem?

 

--Marky

[+budd-rdc]

Besides your tool that you run every 6 months, might it be possible to detect bounces and then flag an account that is bouncing with a big red warning message on their "My Profile" page so that they are aware of the problem?

 

--Marky

 

I could have used this feature when my e-mail provider went screwy and I didn't know e-mails were bouncing.

 

Disabling Membership automatically would have been bad, though. I was still able to check the logs on my caches, and a helpful person (forman) posted a note saying my e-mails were bouncing.

[+welch]

I say not good.

If I were to change my email address, if it was automatic I wouldn't be able to use the site at all till the new validation shows up. Also I've had my email invalidated once just because (? because i guess), there was nothing wrong, or whatever was wrong fixed itself between the bounce and when I checked the email.

If your going to disable accounts for boucing emails it would be better if it were done for repeated bounces over a period of weeks/months. Hopefully this would find the people that either gave fake info or closed an email, not just those that had some fluke bounce.

[Elias]

I say not good.

If I were to change my email address, if it was automatic I wouldn't be able to use the site at all till the new validation shows up.

I'm not sure I understand. If you change your email address, your account becomes invalidated and you have to complete the validation process again. This is the way the site has always worked.

 

Elias

[+welch]

I say not good.

If I were to change my email address, if it was automatic I wouldn't be able to use the site at all till the new validation shows up.

I'm not sure I understand. If you change your email address, your account becomes invalidated and you have to complete the validation process again. This is the way the site has always worked.

 

Elias

Can this be fixed?

[Elias]

I say not good.

If I were to change my email address, if it was automatic I wouldn't be able to use the site at all till the new validation shows up.

I'm not sure I understand. If you change your email address, your account becomes invalidated and you have to complete the validation process again. This is the way the site has always worked.

 

Elias

Can this be fixed?

No, this is by design. If you change your email address, we need to verify that it's both yours, and that it works.

 

Elias

[+welch]

 

No, this is by design. If you change your email address, we need to verify that it's both yours, and that it works.

 

Elias

I went and checked this, I never recalled having problems logging in/out or viewing pages even while changing emails. It seems that it only notices my email isn't validated and that it should restrict access if I close and reopen the browser again (cookies??), that would explain why I hadn't seen this before .

 

I still think automatically disabling someones account on one bounce would be bad, oh well.

[Elias]

I still think automatically disabling someones account on one bounce would be bad, oh well.

It is. But that's why I do this no more than once every 6 months or so. It's also something that I plan to fix in the future too.

 

Elias

[+geo007]

Everseeking wrote...

I feel you should see, via the profile page, if a cacher account has been diabled so you know they are bogus and any issue you have with them you might as well write off. I know geocaching.com does not normally send emails, but when they do or a member does and they detect a bounce (due to hard error like missing account or invalid domain, not a transient error like mailbox full), they could place the account in disabled status. This will drop the number of "active cachers" registered, but I think that would be a good thing.

A user with a disabled account could still logon and then they would need to provide a email address that would be validated by sending a test email with some link.

I realise that there has been no new posting on this subject since march 2006, but I fully aggree with Everseeking on this matter.

I tried to push that idea with Groundspeak.com. I'm affraid things are not going to change soon.

Here is what I mentioned to 'Annie' from Geocaching.com General Inquieries/ Ticket Details ... today...:

'Annie,

I understand that you don't have a system in place to keep track (of the validity all member's email addresses) ... but now, in this instance, you are being made aware of a specific situation...and I'm

sure I must not be the first and only member who has ever submitted such a situation...

So, for the third time my question remains...

...Wouldn't it be a good idea to temporarally 'freeze' is membership and add

some kind of a notice on it so that whenever he tries to access it, he would

be advised of the problem and then be able to fix it ???

 

...or does your answer mean that:

1- ...your control software does not include that option???, or...

2- ... the policy of Groundspeak.com is such that nobody cares about the

problems that could occur because of such instances ???, or...

3- ...Maybe it's time to submit this situation to the departement that gets

all the suggestions for improvement of the hobby or to higher authorities in

the Groundspeak organisation ???

 

And if you feel that you are not in a position to give me a full answer to

that question, please feel free to submit it to whoever you think would be

able to.'

 

And here is what Annie answered me...:

 

'We do not currently have a feature in-place that performs as you described. If you would like to suggest it, you are encouraged to post it to our Web Site forum.'

 

Hoping that someone in authority at Groundspeak.com will see this posting and finally decide to act on it for the good of the geocaching community.

 

geo007

[+geo007]

I would hope that it wouldn't happen after a single bounce back as any number of temporary problems can bounce an email. A few minutes, hours or a day or two later it starts working again. Need to see these bounce over a period of time - short period but not just a one time deal.

It should work this way, but it doesn't. That's why we do get some false positives. When I run my tool, I run it over a week long period so I can catch bounces to our weekly emailer, and if your mail server happens to hard bounce a single email, you're invalidated.

 

I only look for hard bounces; things like vacation notices, over quota, dns issues, and any other transient deferrals are not considered bounces and do not cause invalidation.

 

Elias

 

Here is one I can report to you that has bounced 4 times in the last 3 days. I'm sure that if you disable his membership, he will correct the situation...

 

Membership name: Mocassin

(nonvalid) email address shown on profile: (removed by Groundspeak)

 

Please let me know what you can do about this.

geo007

[+Michael]

I would hope that it wouldn't happen after a single bounce back as any number of temporary problems can bounce an email. A few minutes, hours or a day or two later it starts working again. Need to see these bounce over a period of time - short period but not just a one time deal.

It should work this way, but it doesn't. That's why we do get some false positives. When I run my tool, I run it over a week long period so I can catch bounces to our weekly emailer, and if your mail server happens to hard bounce a single email, you're invalidated.

 

I only look for hard bounces; things like vacation notices, over quota, dns issues, and any other transient deferrals are not considered bounces and do not cause invalidation.

 

Elias

 

Here is one I can report to you that has bounced 4 times in the last 3 days. I'm sure that if you disable his membership, he will correct the situation...

 

Membership name: Mocassin

(nonvalid) email address shown on profile: <removed by Groundspeak>

 

Please let me know what you can do about this.

geo007

 

Please report these to the contact@geocaching.com email address not in the forums please. Thank you.

Edited June 13, 2007 by Michael

[+kewfriend]

Please report these to the contact@geocaching.com email address not in the forums please. Thank you.

Absolutely right

 

Some UK ISPs every now and then get 'banned' by other UK ISPs for their dilatory approach to infected email management - and the emails get bounced back, till they put their house in order and sift out the obvious infections. Its probably a bit unfair to take it out on the poor old geo-punter.

 

But there is definitely an issue: I suggest that this dealt with on a case by case issue with at least three bounes back over a reasonable period before TPTB get involved.

[iryshe]

 

Membership name: Mocassin

(nonvalid) email address shown on profile: (removed by Groundspeak)

 

Please let me know what you can do about this.

geo007

 

Please don't do that again. Do you want people publishing your email address to a public forum? I shouldn't think so.

[Mushtang]

 

Membership name: Mocassin

(nonvalid) email address shown on profile: (removed by Groundspeak)

 

Please let me know what you can do about this.

geo007

 

Please don't do that again. Do you want people publishing your email address to a public forum? I shouldn't think so.

Post #25 has it quoted too.

[+TotemLake]

responded to an old thread.... yeegads.

Edited June 13, 2007 by TotemLake

[+triptrick]

I say Groundspeak should let everyone revalidate thier acount! There has been too many incidents of late and it is leaving a bad taste...

 

If it bounces 3 Times Disable it. User can always revalidate when the issue is resolved.

 

It is a much better option than to go around to the cachers house and do Grievous Bodily Harm for not answering mails or moving along TB's and Coins.

[+Renegade Knight]

I don't think Groundspeak should automatically disable accounts based upon a bounced email.

Agreed. You can be an active cacher even with bouncing emails. You can also have an ISP that bounces emails thanks to new anti spam measures that prevent legitimate emails from getting through etc.

[Edgemaster]

Through this thread, I have just thought of a possible problem that affects the site:

 

Alice sends an email to Bob via the geocaching.com site with the "I want to send my email address along with this message." box unchecked.

Bob's ISP bounces the message.

The bounce message reaches geocaching.com, as intended.

 

Alice sends an email to Bob via the geocaching.com site with the "I want to send my email address along with this message." box checked.

Bob's ISP bounces the message.

The bounce message reaches Alice, instead of geocaching.com

Bob's email address has now been exposed to Alice without his knowledge.

 

A possible solution could be:

Instead of using Alice's email address in the From: header, use the geocaching no-reply address.

Put Alice's email address in the Reply-to: header.

This will also fix some geocaching.com mail being marked as spam due to SPF filters. For example:

Received-SPF: fail (google.com: domain of xxxxxx@tiscali.co.uk does not designate 66.150.167.157 as permitted sender)

 

(I don't know if this will work, since I don't know how mailservers handle bounces with reply-to headers)

Edited June 13, 2007 by Edgemaster